One of the elements integrated into the training of Apache crews from the war in Ukraine is how to counter threats like air defence, drones, and electronic warfare.
The soldiers who operate the British Army’s Apache AH-64E attack helicopter are updating their tactics to make the most of the aircraft’s capabilities in the modern battlefield, say the British Army.
This was apparent during the recent Exercise Talon Guardian. One significant change for the pilots is being ready to fly against air defense systems, as opposed to the uncontested operations they flew with the Apache Mk 1 in Afghanistan. To attack enemy weapons in the deep and protect friendly troops, the Apaches need to be sustained in the field.
Apache pilot Captain ‘H’ was quoted as saying:
“We’re tailoring what we do based on the lessons of the modern battlefield and the requirements of our role, which is to provide aviation deep attack as part of the Army’s warfighting division. We’ve had to completely change how we operate both in the air and on the ground, to best exploit the AH-64E’s improved sensors, weapons and communications systems, as well as its better flying performance.”
To prevent the support teams from being located by drones or having their communications intercepted, the way that Forward Arming and Refuelling Points (FARPs) operate has been reconsidered.
“We need to be more mobile and tactically-minded to survive,” Staff Sergeant Steve Tymms was also quoted as saying.
“We can’t just set up in a fixed location, so we’ve split down to small, self-sufficient teams that work to a matrix of locations and times. We’re basically making appointments and if an aircraft turns up we’ll give it fuel and weapons, but if not then we pack up and go to the next location. It keeps us moving and we can do it without radio comms, so we’re much harder to target.”
You can read more here.
Do the new apaches have any unique british components like how the previous version had more powerful engines and radar? Or are these new ones just the same standard that the US is getting?
No back to US standard equipment, part of the reason they went for new airframes rather than upgrading the D’s was the cost of replacing all the British specific equipment.
Can these new versions still operate from ships as wasn’t that one of the main advantages of the D’s in that they had folding and salt proof roater blades.
The E’s have introduced carbon fibre blades. US received a new blade folding conversion kit for the D/E in 2017 so likely that would be fitted.
Per Wiki, all AH-64Es are claimed to be fully marinized; a very useful feature, if indeed true.
It is true. The US army are already advanced in their planning for using Apache in a similar manner to the British as a Lilly pad platform hoping on and off unprepared rough locations. There meeting up with maintainers, Armourers and replenishment then flying off on mission to return to a new location then go again. The locations of rendezvous being agreed in advance.
The RN/ Army air corps have already signed off Apache for QE class carriers but I’d like to see the type on Albion and Bay class vessels or littoral war ship/ base ship concepts.
In all likelihood Apache will be one of the last manned attack helicopter platforms unless their own self defence can be improved via decoys, jammers, laser and radar dazzling etc to defeat weapons like Starstreak/ land ceptor/ asraam series weaponry
Smart move, US DOD is realising it won’t always have runways to operate from and needs to be as flexible as possible.
We need to be flexible because we don’t have any money 😀
Yes, don’t remember details, but vaguely recall some Apache unit somewhat chastened and worse for wear, after a direct frontal assault on enemy armour. Years ago now, possibly GW II? Tactics, defensive aids, all are important.
Believe that battle forced re-evaluation of existing US tactics into a combined arms approach. Don’t recall the specifics; a little help please from any air historians.
In other news. Canada commits to 88 F35A’s.
AH-64’Es are a beast of an attack helicopter. I’m sure the Ukrainians would fancy of few of these. They would seriously screw up ivans day.
A real shame the uk doesn’t have 50 odd WAH-64 it could gift to Ukraine as the E models come online.
I think it would take to long to get such kit in service with them. Training aircrew/engineers, Maintenance, engineering facilities ect. It would be a big project.
And yet, Slavic ingenuity with our kit is fantastic.
Czechs, Slovaks, and the Latvians I worked with have a different mindset; we are underestimating them.
Give them the kit, they’ll screw the orcs.
👍, w/out a doubt Ukrainians will be teaching lessons learned, after the fact. Better to not unduly disturb them however, while they’re taking care of business…😉
Agreed!
Start now the crews would be ready by spring summer, if people have already worked in the airforce the learning curve is manageable. Its already been done with sea kings.
It’s going to take a huge effort to shift the Russians. I would prefer we help with tech to achieve this rather than them needing to use just human lives.
Casualties are mounting on both sides and western forces always thought tech would help them have the advantage against larger forces. We as allies need to share the full force of equipment.
Yes, I forgot about the Seakings. I guess if there is a will there is a way. And Apache would be a huge asset to them.
Would Ukraine operate attack helos in the Air Force? Ours are with the army.
The old Apaches were disassembled and parts used in the otherwise new machines.
As the E model is a new airframe, presumably we did not donate 50 D models to Being for conversion, which had been the Plan ‘A’.
So maybe we do have all the D’s still – and in good, but tired condition, hopefully.
Bloody biscuits is ANYONE buying less than us? No serious responses, please.
Such weapons are in short supply even to NATO members yet such aircraft can not be ruled out, especially from the US. Considerable training would be required, which would take time so a decision to deploy needs to be taken soon. Many weapon system tactics will need to be revisited in light of the Ukrainian war and if there is anything constructive emanating from this conflict, it’s the lessons being learned by the West and its strategists.
It’s amazing how history and military tactics move in cycles. Over 40 years ago I remember reading an article in a magazine (maybe ‘Battle’, long defunct) describing a major exercise by RAF Germany Harrier squadrons (note the plural!) deployed to dispersed sites in support of BAOR 1 BR Corps armoured divisions (note the plural!). The key points about mobility, sustainability in the field, avoiding enemy air defences are identical … we are just relearning long lost tactics and lessons.
Has Harry gone back to his old job. Anything for a buck…
No no no, the press has got it wrong, he didn’t say he took out 25 Talibs, it was the nasty, selfish Apache did it, he didn’t know about it, wasn’t there/has a txt saying the Apache was also racist and was passing stories to the press! And a fellow Apache aircraft made Meghan cry!!! As for the Chinook parked on the ramp next door well………those big bad blades pushed me into a dog bowl on purpose, making me drop all my 50 pound notes I was using to snort coke, ah, but the Chinook made me snort Av gas……….🤪
You funny boy! You want babies my?
Hey up Yoda 😂👍
Crow bar to lever allied donations into UKR or trng batch? 90 mixed AIFVs is pitiful, your thoughts?
(And don’t say gift them Hercs to do airborne ops … you would, wouldn’t you?)
Interesting to see the thought process! Keep off the hercs, we need a change of mind in the MOD and keep them……
Mad git! Only, you’d have taken that airport just outside Kyiv… you know would have done…
… with a Platoon… 😉 of pathfinders.
And a couple of Sodexo cleaners to mop up!!!!!!
Actually, great joke has cropped up…
Capt Wales, most Welsh men, loose their virginity in a field behind the pub… baaaaaah
Oh man, tough crowd ..but amusing! 😂
Barry, why don’t you take your head for crap! You are about as funny as toothache. Do you mean “Lose”, welcome you to tell your joke in Wales.
Apache pilot with a B in Art & D in Geography. No nepotism there!
100% right there James.
I would hazard a guess that not many, if any chums have managed to walk up to the Army Careers Office with two mediocre school exam results and;
1. Got accepted to RMA Sandhurst to become an officer; and
2. A helicopter pilot at that!
Too bloody right, it’s who you know.
Two legitimate questions: 1.) Isn’t the military virtually obligated to accept Royal family candidates for admission, regardless of suitability, either by law or tradition?
2.) Believe that RMA Sandhurst is a one year curriculum? Does this mean candidates already have the equivalent of a baccalaureate degree in the US (typically a four year, post secondary period of instruction(?
You can get in to Sandhurst with less high school qualifications than university. Harry left Eton without enough A levels to get in to University so he went straight to sandhurst at 18. That’s not normal these days I think most will have a degree before going to sandhurst but it is possible especially if your last name is wales.
The military are no obliged to allow them to serve however the military is not likely to turn down anyone who meets the basic criteria.
Churchill was much the same. Did not have the grades for university so was sent to sandhurst.
We don’t have an equivalent to West Point in the UK.
Thanks. Very interesting; different recruitment and training traditions.
Who said Napoleon’s fate was sealed on the playing fields of Eton?
Wellington?
I believe a combination of the Defence Academy at Shrivenham and Sandhurst fill that space.
Correct.
When I was selected for Sandhust (in the 70s) you needed two A levels (Grades were immaterial – I got in with just two Grade Ds) only if you were going for a PRC (Permanent Regular Commission, later called RegC – otherwise 5 O Levels would do for a Short Service Commisssion.
Nowadays you require a certain number of UCAS points, but a degree is not required. Harry met the criteria otherwise he would not have been admitted to the RMA; he clearly passed RCB/AOSB too and they do not lower the bar to allow duffers in.
In society a very large number of people undertake degrees before embarking on their career, so many officer cadets have a degree on joining – but not because it is required by the army. Different for those who are professionally required to have a degree, ie REME, Med, Dent, Legal etc.
Most people regard Sandhurst as the British equivalent to West Point even though the courses and ethos is vastly different.
1) The British Army (I can’t speak for the other Services) do not admit anyone regardless of their station in life who fail to meet the selection criteria. It is a srious insult to the army to suggest otherwise.The most important factor, but not the only one, is performance on the Army Officer Selection Board at Westbury (was called the Regular Commissions Board for many years), a demanding 3-day selection test). A Royal officer cadet is expected to perform exceptionally – and generally get more demanding command roles in training – if anything they have a harder time than us mere mortals. In my Sandhurst Platoon the Crown Prince of Luxembourg was pushed very hard. If they don’t measure up (as Prince Edward didn’t on his RM Commando course) it is suggested that they leave the course.
2) The Sandhurst course has changed over the years. For many years in the 20th Century, it was a 2-year course, then in 1972 it was reduced to a 6-month course (Standard Military Course) and you stayed on for a second consolidating course (Regular Career Course) if you were not on a Short Service Commission. I did both 6-month consecutive courses in the 1970s.
Now it is a 44-week course.
Mate, I am amused by the American-ness of your question – Sandhurst is no academic hot-house – you don’t need a degree to get in (qualities other than academic prowess are far more important), and that 44-week course does not of course give you a degree. US officers are pushed through a heavily academiccourse, British Army officers are not and the course is very practical (and includes bayonet fighting).
We believe in a shorter commissioning course than you guys do and then officers doing short-ish Special-to-Arm training and getting to a first unit quickly. It was not unusual for 20 year old subbies commanding a platoon on the streets in Northern Ireland back in the day. Of course many candidates choose to do a degree before applying for Sandhurst and that is their choice (not required by the army), and this is more common today, so very many officer cadets arrive at the RMA with a degree.
Different ‘rules’ apply for those few who require a degree for their cap badge – such as REME officers, medical, dental, legal officers etc. I was REME and did my degree in-service ie after I was commissioned (at age 19).
Thanks for providing a thorough explanation; intriguing differences noted in training philosophy and regimen. Presume RAF and RN follow same pattern?
Thanks.
Sorry, no idea about the RAF and RN/RM officer selection and training.
Correct mate, he knew Major J Hewitt!!!! 😂
Ian, You are doing my former service a massive injustice by suggesting that they bent the rules for Harry (or would do for anyone with a high station in life).
Harry got into Sandhurst with the academic qualifications required at the time – they are not looking for academics – they look at RCB performance primarily. Also a Grade B is not mediocre. I got two Grade Ds and I was accepted for Sandhurst, but it was a few years before Harry, admittedly.
Do you have evidence that he was accepted for pilot training without being considered suitable? Helicopter training including the Apache course is long and bloody hard. By all accounts he was a very good pilot and was top on his gunnery course in the US.
James only the RAF think you need a degree to fly a combat aircraft!
BTW, I got into Sandurst (some years before Harry, admittedly) with two Grade Ds – at RCB, they really were not looking for amazing academic prowess but other qualities.
Respect for the REME Graham, and respect that you went on to do a degree afterwards. I’m sure the guys you commanded respected that.
In the Parachute Regiment & RM Officers have to prove themselves better from day one (Fitness) otherwise the respect isn’t earned from that of the ranks.
If I was a qualified electrician (Skilled) I personally would have more respect for any Officer who had done my role/knowledge of (Direct) than just man managing. Prob a bad example (militarily), but in engineering which Germany has shown some prominence it wouldn’t happen. A Manager of a skilled profession would have to have proven themselves 1st in that specific role before they could go on and line manage the same skilled profession.
In respect to Edward he left RM after deciding it wasn’t for him. But presumably he might not have passed the AIB had he not had certain connections and it was found (At interview) his real passion actually lay within the arts industry he quickly went on to determine when leaving Lympstone.
Likewise I don’t know Harry, but of everything that’s been read and the way he writes/conducts himself at interview. He is not always the most articulate, albeit even from that of now a ‘seasoned’ officer. You look at the transition from some NCO’s who are now commissioned, they have modified their speech, obtained degrees etc.
On the basis to be an Apache pilot you need to be within the top 10% maybe he really is a cracking pilot. But the question may be, was there someone better had they had been given the opportunity? I’m very pleased the army is looking more and more at ways of spotting talent:-
https://www.forces.net/news/british-army-lowers-minimum-rank-become-helicopter-pilot
https://www.forces.net/services/gurkhas/signaller-dreams-becoming-first-ever-gurkha-apache-pilot
2005 Harry joined the Army, same year he wore the Nazi uniform? Hardly a glowing example to organisation is it.
However I think you have gone off point somewhat by discussing your own experiences. AH-64D came online in 2005 and unlike the US we don’t have many, so truly the best of the best need to be flying/maintaining them. At least someone with the emotional intelligence of not trying to reveal a kill count to fill the pages of some vanity book lecture.
Thanks James for your comments. Officers have to have some background before arriving at their first unit that gives them a baseline from which to start earning respect – and for me that constituted that the troops knew I had passed (challenging) selection for Sandhurst, did 2 consecutive demanding courses to train me as a leader in soldiering skills, was as fit as they were, understood their technical world and would soon have tech qualifications in advance of their own.
I personally do not find it satisfactory to assume that Edward may have passed AIB on the grounds of nepotism or that Harry may not have deserved his place on helicopter training.
If nepotism really existed in the armed forces towards members of the Royal Family who joined their ranks, then I would expect Royal officer cadets might have been excused guard duties and ‘stags’ on officer training, given extra leave, perhaps for William and/or Harry to have won the Sword of Honour at Sandhust, for promotion to have occurred faster than usual (in fact Andrew promoted later than most to Commander). None of that happened.
Harry wearing the Nazi uniform to a Colonial/Villain party was a bad youthful decision but he had already passed selection for the RMA. I guess you think he should not have been permitted to start the course and denied a military career for this indiscretion.
Harry was top on his Apache gunnery course in the US so he fully deserved to be operating the weapon systems in Afghanistan. He revealed his kill count over 10 years after his tour – he claims that it was to facilitate veterans to talk about their combat experience and come to terms with it and avoid the slippery slope to suicide.
I liked your links – the army has always had Cpl as minimum rank for flying a helicopter. Interesting that they are dropping it to Pte. Perhaps someone should tell the RAF as they are convinced you need to be an officer to fly a fixed wing aircraft or helicopter – quite ridiculous – RAF Sgt pilots did a great job in WW2.
I do not respect Harry as is today and am appalled at his attacks on the Royal Family and his whining and inability to take any blame for untoward incidents – but we should respect his army service and related achievements – and not consider that the army must have showed nepotism.
“The Role of Leaders in Building a Culture of Moral Courage The proceedings of the Centre for Army Leadership’s 2017 Conference Held on 8 November 2017 Robertson House, the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst”.
Other recent interviews conducted by the author with British Army majors and sergeants revealed varying perceptions of moral issues, outside of the battle space, that require courageous intervention. Issues like increasing favouritism and nepotism in appointment selection; subjectivity and inaccuracies in annual performance reporting; poor medical statistics linked to certain service provisions; political promises and significant retention challenges; incoherent and poor intelligence-led recruitment strategies, rites of passage and indiscriminate collective punishments, and sanitised fluffy-kid-gloves training environments, were some of the key issues associated by respondents with current moral dilemmas. It was felt these issues must be courageously tackled in order to mitigate perceived negative effects on the workforce (particularly with regards to trust and loyalty).”
I say let’s agree to disagree. Harry obviously skipped latin as Invictus would seem at odds with his book of squabbles.I’m sure Harry got the best of advice during his career and absent of that today. we see his raw potential.
Thanks James. All this seemed to be an issue in 2017, many years after those being discussed left the army.
I’m sure Megan is probably 1/ 48th Native American so I’m amazed Harry would even use the word Apache 😀
He’s still riding that 1/48 Apache. 🙈😂😂
Boom boom! Jim you are bad! 😂👍
Just a question for our American friends how does his visa stand with him admitting drug use?
He’s married to an American and he’s royalty. He doesn’t have a conviction so he should be cool
Not that we want him back but it would have been fun to see him squirm 😄
Interesting question re visa; any US immigration attorneys available online to address issue? 🤔 If not, a non-attorney will attempt to provide a few, hopefully factual, background statements. Believe one could reasonably assume that someone (or some branch) w/in US State Department has been assigned protocol (‘handler’) duty re Royal long-term visitors/inhabitants. Presume State Dept. has acquired multiple copies of book in order to be forewarned re any potential issues. Specific statutes of limitation apply for most crimes w/in US; doubtful UK would seek extradition. Ergo, there may not be an issue.
The more intriguing question from a US taxpayer’s perspective: Who is responsible for the tab re the family’s security detail? UK (Foreign Office/MI-5)? US (State Dept. Protective Service)? 24/7/365, covering multiple protectees, could become a sporting proposition. 🤔
Definitely outside the wheelhouse of expertise re this topic.
He pays for all his own security which is why he says he has to keep prostituting himself to Netflix, Spotify, Oprah or anyone else willing to pay a man who has zero skills, no talent and a complete lack of personality.
The Canadians kicked them out because Ottawa was unwilling to pay the bill and now the UK has done the same.
That could become a very expensive proposition; not certain how many interview, books etc. sponsors will be willing to pay for. 🤔
I think you missed out: embittered, needy, self centered and feeling entitled.
Just saying……..
Good, the prick can stay over there! Not that I have an opinion on this subject……😇
Impartial as ever😂😂😂
U would think he’s the first person to have ever fallen out with his family. Difference being nobody else publishes every little detail.
Has he got a Green Card? I am not sure how he has achieved permanent resident status in the US. Does he have to come back to the UK for x days per year?
OT I hear we are considering sending a number of Challys to Ukraine? Any reliable OSINT on this?
Is this a wah?
Wah
No wah!!! Mate haven’t heard that for donkeys!!!!!
supposedly 10 of them, is it worth the hassle,wouldn’t it be better to work with other to provided Leopard or Abrams which are in more widespread use ?
Heard the same on Sky news this morning.
No details given but at a guess id say its 10 that are sidelined not to be upgraded to C3 standard.
Its not regarded as the easiest of machines to operate without considerable technical support so yeah I agree is it worth the hassle for 10 tanks?
Unique ammo as with the French AMX-10 would be a logistical nightmare. With this low number they would have to stick together. Shame to have to abandon a tank for lack of shells.
Shells? Shells WTF it’s a tank not a beach!
France has over 200 so I suspect they have a good stock of shells (and the gun is also in service in Morocco and Qatar)
Only cowboys in old westerns are known to call ammunition “shells”!
Just wondered given what everyone has said regarding the hassle and small numbers whether it is more a strategy to open up the block on providing western tanks rather than anything else?
Or also a genuine combat test for the base vehicle armour and survivability?
Seems to be a stategy to allow the German Government to agree to re-exporting Leo2s from nations who operate them. They don’t want to be first to supply or agree to supply tanks – wimps!
Agreed, but would be a very interesting test for the MOD to see the capability and survivability of the Chally! As long as none fall in the hands of the Orcs! Then again they may not realise it would be a tank as its turret would still be fixed and not flying off somewhere 400 metres away!
I cant find out if the Malyshev tank Factory is still being used by Ukraine, although I think it is still in there hands. However since all there tanks are based on T72,T80,T90 they must still have the autoloader issue, so western tanks would be most welcome. It would indeed be very interesting to see what happened vs a T80/T90
10 – thats not even a squadrons-worth. Should be 14 plus a few spares…and don’t forget the CRARRV and other Maint support vehicles.
Sweden will transfer Archer artillery systems to Ukraine, Swedish Foreign Minister Tobias Bilström said.
And you can thank the Nazi Putin for forcing Sweden into its new hard, NATO stance! Another victory for Putin…….et, not!
Putin has excelled in stopping nato expanding and putting a Russian picked leader into Ukraine. Sorry I was caught in a parallel universe there.
If putin wasn’t controlling the Russian politics through fear, intimidation and actually allowed the best people for advisors instead of who’s got the biggest bribe his armed forces, intelligence chiefs could of been honest and told him the plans will not work as intended.
What a plonker
Are the gunners given the full training to fly the Apache that is given to the pilot or are they just trained to get the aircraft back home or on the ground in the event of his incapacitation
Meanwhile Japan has decided to scrap attack and recon helos in favour of drones.
Given how expensive and long it is to train pilots and their role in the Ukraine conflict, it certainly is food for thought.
Makes sense to me, run the current batch of Apache until they are done and then drones all the way.
Was about to post that Lordtemplar.
I can only see attack helicopter function to be a reinforcement to expand a breakthrough or the inverse to stop a breakthrough. Both time when enemy air defences are not well deployed and fast reaction is needed.
The only question is when they will get “Exactor” aka Spike NLOS to fire from behind line of sight.
Because other than that it is suicide…
Most AH will try to pop up from cover, fire and duck down, if possible.
War is a rather dangerous business!
If guidance cannot be made from elsewhere they will be dead.
Agreed that without a covered approach to a firing position, Apaches will be vulnerable to attack by precision munitions.
Like everything else on the battle field. When I served, I was mostly in a soft-skinned LandRover – that was really vulnerable. Most of the army is not in armoured vehicles.
In a inconspicuous Land Rover you might get passed as a nobody. 😉
Perhaps the army shouldn’t have painted my Landie in green and black swirls and festooned it with radio antennae!
With Leopard 2s Stryker and Challengers heading to Ukraine- we should also supply Apaches with hellfire missiles for combined maneuvers in the near future-
Ukraine has said it needs equipment for 20 heavy armoured brigades. Hopefully they can get what’s needed to move forward.
Some attack helicopters would be useful in some situations.
A big supply of drones that can see and evaluate a battlefield and launch weapons onto targets would also be very useful.
Canada announced its purchasing a NASAMS to give to Ukraine.
Pakistan is sending crates of artillery shells and Ukraine has said it will modernise its helicopters as a return favour.
New equipment like heavy armour needs to be made for Ukraine. They don’t all need to be super expensive.
If a company can get an basic IFV for around £1m or less that would help.
Who makes £1m IFVs?
Let the new buyer take the early years depreciation and buy used. Some of these must have depreciated to zero by now…..
https://www.army-technology.com/projects/stryker-armoured-combat-vehicle/
Good idea, so long as the capability was 90% or more of a new solution. We last bought used AFVs in 1990, I think – German FUCHS for GW1.
We should not be embarrrassed to do it again, especially as our economy is struggling.
I’d much prefer they were called “Longbows”. With all the changing of American sports team names away from associations with indigenous tribes, it will soon come to pass that American military equipment will be renamed too. The UK has more affinity with the term Longbow than it does with Apache so it makes more sense. Cue excuses.