Lieutenant General Ivan Jones, the Commander Field Army, has issued a public apology after a soldier tweeted that MP Angela Rayner should “perish” in a Brexit “civil war.”
The corporal, whose Twitter account has now been deleted, will be “dealt with”, according to Jones. He described the tweet as “appalling.”
I would like to apologise personally to @AngelaRayner MP and anyone affected by appalling tweets from @GoshawkDaniel, a British soldier. He does not represent the remarkable men and women in @BritishArmy who serve this nation. Rest assured this is being dealt with. @BWallaceMP pic.twitter.com/R4UHz6kU1T
— The Field Army (@field_army) September 27, 2019
The Ministry of Defence said: “The Army is a politically neutral organisation and holds its people to the highest standards.”
Momentum, a grassroots political movement, described the comments as “disgraceful”.
The British Army has come under increasing pressure in recent years to tackle right-wing extremism. In 2017 it published a guide entitled “Extreme Right Wing (XRW) Indicators & Warnings” to help personnel spot signs of extremism.
It was released shortly after the MoD admitted that “a number of serving members of the Army have been arrested under the Terrorism Act.”
In April 2019 a video emerged of British soldiers shooting a photograph of Jeremy Corbyn. At the time, the Ministry of Defence said the video was “not fitting of the high standards we expect”, with Brigadier Nick Perry adding “the army is, and always will be, a totally apolitical organisation.”
Corbyn’s Momentum thugs descride it as ‘disgraceful’ yet they want a man in power who openly consorted with and showed solidarity for the IRA leadership thugs, who blew up/shot/kidnapped & tortured British troops, civilian men women & children for 40yrs.
..Two faced hypocrites of the highest order.
..but that’s the British left for you.
I agree with you Mac on some elements of the Labour left.
Labour has ceased to become an effective opposition,
lurching to the hard left … the lunatics really have taken over the asylum!
It’s a dangerous situation for our Parliamentary democracy, as it depends on a balance of good governance and opposition to function correctly.
But, for a serving soldier to make a public statement of this type really isn’t very clever.
People must realise that statements put out on social media of an inflammatory nature, will come back to bite them on the arse…
I think Corbyn is a horrible individual as are the momentum movement. However the Conservative party are turning in to a party that is not much better either.
No matter how horrible the far left of the Labour party are, it is not acceptable for a member of the armed forces to post such comments and no one in their right mind ought to be condoning them.
It’s a sad situation, isn’t it? Hopefully, a resurgence of the centre will rebalance things a little.
Agreed, I am not a fan of Corbyn, and disagree with many of their policies, but publicly expressing a desire that someone would meet an unplasant end is not acceptable. If it was a private company, and your social media account marked you as an employee of that company, that would be sufficient for serious disciplinary measures. The army is responding correctly, in my opinion.
Some top howling at the moon there dude, the article is about the British Army apologising for some pretty distasteful comments. There was no mention of who complained but you get points for spinning it that way. Bonus points for naming your choice of guilty b’stard and then extending it to a whole movement of people, no matter how far along the ‘left’ spectrum they might be. Bravo Sir I salute your close to impeccable ranting. You do lose points for not managing to get “loony” in before ‘Left’. Still a solid 9 out of 10 on the rade-ometer.
I think the main gist there was that those aggressive and intolerant clowns in momentum commenting about standards of behaviour, which would be quite amusing if they weren’t to offensive!
Ridiculous ?♂️
When is David Lammy, Labour MP, going to apologise for saying Leave voters are “worse than Nazis”?… Yeah, thought not.
How so?
One example a politician who equated the ERG (not leave voters) to Nazis, I don’t agree that this is a sensible comparison, but he didn’t threaten them with physical violence
Vs.
A serving soldier implying a civil war and threatening an individual with them “perishing”.
The two are clearly not equivalent. It’d be like saying me calling you a fan of Idi Amin whilst I’m a parish Councillor is equal to me saying you’ll expire in the forthcoming revolution while I’m working as a travelling guillotine salesman.
And how many Labour activists and MPs have said the literal same thing? Questioning why they aren’t allowed to lynch Tories in the street, saying they shouldn’t throw milkshake, they should throw acid, hanging effigies from a bridge saying a hundred thousand Conservitive voters should be killed.
Why aren’t the rules applied to the left?
Because they are not in the army Lewis? Think he pretty much explained that in his post, read stuff twice if it helps ?
In terms of the milkshake/acid comment Jo Brand and the BBC apologised, so I’d say the rules were applied in that case. Not that the BBC are a ‘left’ body, they apologised due to being a public institution, in the same way that a senior officer is apologising on behalf of the Army as a public body.
But it is the context that is important. This wasn’t an activist this was a serving soldier. Clearly the context is hugely different. I would equally expect as serious a response if a soldier implied Rees-Mogg would suffer in some revolution against the bourgeoisie. The politics is almost irrelevant, its the fact a serving soldier threatened someone in an implied civil war, and clearly brings the Army as an institution into an uncomfortable position in doing so.
This isn’t a left/right thing Lewis. This is about a serving soldier posting stupid, dangerous, and inflammatory comments online and bringing the Army into disrepute. I’m sure that if he had said that a leave supporting MP should perish in a civil war he would’ve been dealt with in the same way.
is david lammy a serving soldier now..?
David Lammy couldn’t serve a Sunday lunch pal! But I think the gist of the comment is that Lammy tweets untruths and quite offensive chuff regularly, but gets away with it due to him being on the DrGramps list!
If you’re offended by what David Lammy tweets you should go take a good long look in the mirror, pal
I see a handsome airborne warrior, thanks mate!
Well I must agree with the Lt Gen on this . The Armed Forces are Apolitical. Allegiance is to the Crown not a Political party or belief system.
From experience a rule in most WO &SR messes is no politics as after a few beers its gets a bit heated and just hacks everyone off!
The armed forces have recognised for some time that Social media is an issue and that opinions and updates by service people (on whatever the platform) need to be controlled. When I say controlled that is controlled by the person making the comment not by big brother.
Even now , having left the armed forces I still think before I type so as not to give away any sensitive info that crosses my desk or info that is still relevant for equipment I worked on.
However Momentum getting on their high horse about the comments is hypocritical. Did the same spokesperson issue a comment about the sign in Manchester placed on a bridge and 2 dummies hanging by the neck from the bridge? Probably not. But hey that’s the soundbite, clickbait culture we live in nowadays.
and quite right too.
the armed forces would do well to remember there might be a labour government in a few months.
Hahaha, funny, there’s no chance Comrade Corbyn will be PM, the nation would rather any number of other conservatives if Boris is forced to leave or General Election.
except he actually could be.
do you think failing to respond appropriately to comments like those referred to above would make a potential labour government more or less favourably inclined towards the armed forces come budget day..?
If labour get in start and start slashing, blame the author who has attracted these comments for the very strange reason of using momentum as a voice of denouncement, absolutely pathetic
So you confirming that the left leaning Labour back bench with Corbyn at the helm would not be fair or apolitical in its dealing with the army due to a soldiers stupid tweated comments? Really? You have that little faith in those you support? Wow? Where have we ended up!
Can’t confirm anything I’m not a politician
The labour back bench isn’t left leaning, it’s the labour front bench that is
Nothing to do with what the guy tweeted, the point is aimed at political commentators not being impartial and garnering more attacks and hatred towards either side in this pathetic left and right culture war we are heading towards/already engaged in
The author of this piece would be better served, and indeed all the armed forces commentators in whatever capacity would be better served, actually engaging with both sides of the political spectrum to offer sound argument why we actually need more, which was done to me many years ago, which is why I fight for more in terms of defence as a member of Labour
If people try to put defence as a sole property of the “right” which it isn’t, then when the “left” get in power, bad things might happen, because idiots on the left with the same left/right world view will see defence as something not to be taken very seriously and a stick to bash the right with
If anyone truly cared about the defence of this country they would see this and try everything to stop it, that includes engaging with all sides and putting defence before politics
Er, methinks I replied to not a Tory? I was replying to his comment which, rather childishly could be considered to be an implicit threat that if a squaddie says something bad about his possible future political leaders, that he says they may then exact revenge on the military across the board? I was asking has he that little faith in those he supports, to be so unprofessional and revenge seeking? Really?
Yeah, fair enough I thought that was a reply to me, I was in broad agreement with his second post about the political commentary, not the lads tweet
No worries ?
Airborne – you, like many others on this thread, seem to not grasp that a serving soldier threatening civil war and the death of an MP is not the same as an MP calling other politicians names.
The armed forces of the United Kingdom and are under the control of a civilian government which changes when elections change the composition of the house of commons. They are not the armed wing of the Tory party. Political neutrality is vitally important to their continued existence.
Armed wing of the Tory party? Oh grow up you child, and post some sense for a change!
Maybe next time try engaging with the substance of someone’s argument rather than calling them names, big man ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I observed no substance or argument from you in your original post, just a child like comment whining about the military having to be careful, possibly some sort of lefty oriented very weak threat! Usual chuff pal, keep it up!
As much as I’d love my hot takes to form the basis of labour policy you give me too much credit describing in my observations above as a ‘treat.’
Oh dear, maybe re-read your post, closely followed by mine, and have another go eh? Good lad!
PC codswallop. 1 person makes a stupid comment – and he feels the need to apologise on behalf of the entire British Army? Must have a been a busy day at the office…
Because as a member of the Armed forces you represent them as a whole too. We were told that over and over again. If we went off base we were told to behave and represent the Military in a good light. The military always thinks itself as one huge team and so any members actions are a reflection of the team.
Some classic cases of whataboutery going on here, some of these comments are pathetic
Both sides of the spectrum has hard elements that turn into thuggish behaviour
The people calling momentum, Corbyn, Labour etc could not name a single person in Momentum apart from the founder probably, if they went to a momentum meeting they could see that most cant fight sleep, you’re just spouting the same rubbish from the Sun, Express and Mail, it’s the exact same as people calling UKIP, Brexit party, leave voters racists and fascists, ala Mirror & Guardian.
Sections of both sides, completely politically clueless, tarring everyone on each side with the same brush to try delegitimise the other sides political point of view, it’s a tactic used by the media that’s spread into the public’s political discourse, rational debate is failing in this country when people on one side think every one else is an anti-war, green tea drinking, traitor & left wing nut and they think the other side are right wing, fascists and racists, welcome to the United States of Great Britain
The sad thing is this could easily of been done by a former labour voter who would would class himself as hard left, there has been a hard left case for leaving the EU for decades, there are many on the left who voted leave
The fact of the matter is that someone who should not have a public political opinion did so, was wrong and no doubt has been punished and the apology has been made, that’s the end of the matter (in my best Bercow voice)
It really does not help when people are attacking the public and political organisations for having..wait for it..a political opinion, however wrong you may think that may be or however far it is from your own politics, it’s their democratic right that’s been fought and won for to have that opposite opinion.
I completely agree with you. People are taking this as a left/right, leave/remain issue. The fact of the matter is that it’s not about which side he was on, it’s that a) He’s a serving soldier and should appear apolitical in public situations, and b) He effectively threatened someone (an MP no less) with violence and therefore brought the armed forces into disrepute.
It’s tribal politics James
People think “one of their own” on the right Is being unfairly targeted while their “enemies” on the left are getting away with similar, and of course it works both ways
More and more people are treating their politics, political parties and leave & remain like football teams, can never see any wrong in them and always hating the opposition
Never mind football teams, it’s like a religion for some sadly. They’ll argue passionately about something of little relevance to them because that’s what the current dogma is. On one hand it’s funny watching them work themselves up into a fury over some minor point. On the other hand, it’s tragic and its saddening what has become the fairly boring stuff of running the country. Hollywood for ugly people indeed.
Great post SS.
It doesn’t matter what your, mine or the dockyard cat’s politics are, it’s not about us it’s about a serving soldier (who I’m guessing had enough info to identify himself as being in the Forces) making some pretty horrible comments and getting had up for it. It’s what the Forces do, the whole bringing into disrepute etc. Nothing to see here move along. Unless you’re the small minded type who can’t see past “THEM” saying something nasty but “US” and “US” being told not to. If that’s “YOU” then have a word with yourselves. There are arseholes every where doing and saying crappy stuff. Maybe time to try some of that moral high ground on for size instead of the downward spiral to be the most crappy to “THEM”. Goddamn “THEM” grrrrr.
Corbyn and his Momentum activists are responsible for Labour’s pathetic showing in the polls. This country needs to re-establish centre ground politics…neither Boris nor Jezzer offer this. This is why I, and millions of others, will be voting Lib-Dem at the next election. As far as the XWR pamphlet is concerned, perhaps it could be put into pdf format and made available on this website…for the well-being of all concerned!
Lib Dems
The undemocratic party
https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/photos/a.805855112846065/2465224100242483/?type=3&theater
And that probably applies to all the elitist remainers
Ah Facebook Barry….that forum for truth and moderation. Funnily enough, I don’t remember reading about this in the New Statesman!
Given the Libs Dems need to win a general election to revoke article 50 and it is a very clearly stated party position and aim, how on earth is that NOT democratic?
Julian, it’s not democratic for a number of reasons. They could possibly get into government on about 40 percent of the vote. Also they would be standing on a multi policy ticket and one of those policies might be more important to you than Brexit.
As I’ve already posted, I have no problem with people campaigning to rejoin the EU, I’d most likely vote for it myself but not to go against the wishes of a rare yes/no democratic vote, what does it say about our politics to do that.
well, I don’t dispute your logic. However, what circumstances would lead to LD winning with 40%? A totally split and dysfunctional leave vote which prefers to infight OR a big swing to remain How ironic if the lib Dems actually profited through a first-past-the-post system for once?
Most of our governments have got in on about 40% of the vote over the recent years so its not a massive stretch to assume that it will happen again.
Personally I can’t see it being the Lib Dems although I can see them getting a larger share of the vote than Labour, probably on less seats right enough which would play to their (and my own) preference for PR.
Just my back of a fag packet logic (and taking my shoes and socks off to get past 10) but there is one party who are pushing Brexit, one party that are pushing Remain (at all costs, including ignoring the referendum) and one sitting on the fence. Even tossing in the SNP and other ‘fringe’ parties and I can’t see past the ones pushing Brexit romping home, they’re the only ones on that side of the debate while the others are in disarray over what kind of remain.
I could be wrong of course, its happened plenty times before….
Swinson voted to cut welfare for the terminally ill, tax cuts for the very richest, sell off all our public Forrest’s, £9000 tuition fees, cutting youth unemployment funding, against a tax on expensive property and bankers bonuses, but for reducing housing benefit on an unused bedroom in a single parents rented home
Centre ground?
Let’s be honest mate and say you’re voting Lib Dem’s for the sole reason because you want to stay in the EU, which is fair enough but be honest, the lib dems have generally voted in line with the conservatives for nearly a decade
My take on the current political parties, lib dems centre right, conservatives, centre right but going further to the right with those in government, labour, centre left but going way further to the left with those in the shadow government.
Hmm…well everyone makes a mistake now and then Sole! I agree that coalition government was not the Lib-Dems finest hour! Had they been more astute, they would have recognised that they were on a hiding to nothing. Ahh but the temptations of power…such an aphrodisiac! I think that you might find that the Lib-Dems are rediscovering their need to hold the centre-ground….for their own survival.
As for me only supporting the Lib-Dems because of their anti-Brexit stance…well what a suspicious mind you have! The idea had never occurred to me!
Haha I agree
And possibly, if we had a functioning government it would be interesting to see how they would vote as a party on domestic issues with their new influx
I’m sure it didn’t ?
Indeed, and if a remain vote was achieved….well, how one voted subsequently wouldn’t be a forgone conclusion. That reminds me, must pick up my train tickets for October 19th.
Please don’t describe Momentum as a grassroots political orginisation. Its a group of far left extremists who are supporting a man who endorsed terrorism. Nothing more.
Yesterday Momentum (Labour Party Brown Shirts) retweeted an image from Manchester of a banner hanging from a bridge which suggested Tories should be hanged. Momentum tagged it as “Welcome to Manchester Tories…” the tweet was later removed. They are in no position to call anyone or anything disgraceful
“Momentum, a grassroots political movement, described the comments as “disgraceful”.”
This would be the same Momentum that put up a sign, with effigies calling for the death of Tory party members and then gleefully tweeted about it right?
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/threatening-banner-hanging-effigies-put-17000749
A really monumentally stupid thing to do on the part of the soldier though, and I’m sorry to say they’ll deserve everything that happens to them as a result.
Momentum, on the other hand, is a dark and dangerous force that everyone should be alarmed at.
Don’t think the reason why Momentum is used in this article has gone unnoticed
The author Henry Jones could have used the defence secretary Ben Wallace
“This is an unacceptable tweet from a member of the @BritishArmy to @AngelaRayner. This foul language goes against the values of the Armed Forces and is now being investigated by the Army and civilian police”
This is the first article on the subject I have read that has used Momentum’s denouncement, to say they are irrelevant to this is an understatement to say the least, you could of used a dozen sitting MP’s
Since when has Momentum become the partisan voice on current affairs, they have been used for the purpose to try take heat of the guy that did it, a deflection pure and simple that has attracted more comments of attack’s and anger
Maybe it’s because after the stunt momentum pulled yesterday, it reveals them for the massive hypocrites that they are?
But this has nothing to do with Momentum, shouldn’t revealing them as hypocrites belong in the opinion pieces of the Mail and Express?
“Who are we?
Here at the UK Defence Journal we are dedicated to providing impartial and complete coverage of defence matters in the United Kingdom and around the world.
As a group, the UK Defence Journal has no affiliation to any party or political group, our members are drawn from across the political spectrum.”
Proving a political organisation attached to a specific political party as hypocrites does not really go with what UKDJ advertise themselves as does it?
Personally, I think that Momentum have a lot going for them! How do I put a smiley emoji on here?
?
They’re alright in small doses haha
Biggest thing i respect is getting the youth out to vote, there is no other organisation in the UK that does more to try get young people engaged and out to vote
On that point, many other political parties might look at this more than they are. Some of my younger students (I teach adults now) are very angry with the political situation at the moment….they want their voices heard too! That’s why a second referendum must be held so that the future is being decided by those that are going to have to live in it!
I do admire your Brexit shaped shoehorn haha
I think after the last election the conservatives started their youth grassroots organisation, surely a direct response to Momentum
Yes, evangelism does seem to have risen to the top of my fault pile. As a Christian, I may get the bug after Brexit is thrown out. Expect me on your doorstep proffering copies of the ‘Watch Tower’!
As for the Conservatives, the Primrose League was a hugely successful organisation for garnering grass roots support… particularly for women. I understand that it wound up quite recently having been in existence since the C19th. A lot to be said for these sorts of organisations for promoting the spread of political engagement. Too many back seat commentators these days…all the views and none of the commitment. On that note, there will be the biggest demonstration ever held in this country on the 19th of this month in London. We will be starting in Park Lane…why don’t you join us?
Haha I wouldn’t call it a fault at all, being passionate about politics and fighting your point is to be respected, you’ve stuck to the same line on here for a while, that’s a genuine passion and something you believe in, it’s a good trait as long as you back it up which you do.
If the conservative grassroots movement along with the conservative MP’s had their heads screwed on they should of put more effort into either a rebranding of the Primrose league or another from the ashes group to promote conservatism. A big problem for conservative ideology these days is that it is spread and promoted by the gutter press
Well I’m officially 95% retired from Brexit commentary, I’ve had so many battles over the years on here and reddit that I’m cured of it, so I don’t think joining a political march would do me any favours, good luck to you though and hope it goes well, i would be fine with another vote, and I would vote remain again like I did in 2016, but for balance, I would add that I was entirely remain and reform, and am still to this day, and I have doubts that the EU is the right way to go in terms of governance, as a union of states yes, I’m a firm believer of the end of nation state so in 50 years we are either a union in Europe or a union of another sort, but that’s a debate for another day.
Herodotus you are normally well balanced in your arguments but you aren’t with this one. It is quite simple when you are 18 you can vote and not before and not all leave voters are 90 and just about to pass on from this world to the next.
The argument was lost and whist there is anger felt on both sides of the BREXIT debate I would suggest leavers have probably more reason to complain since the referendum.
It is difficult in the modern media and political world of crisis, surrender, fascist, lefty etc now infiltrating the mainstream. But try and see beyond the hysterical opinions of all of them and most of all try and stop spreading there divisive rubbish.
Thanks for the comment about my arguments being well-balanced! As far as political plurality is concerned, I hope that this is so. It certainly isn’t true for my views on Brexit…I’m as biased as hell…in my view it is the most important event since Britain declared war on Germany in 1939…and this time we have got it wrong!
I don’t see how you can link my comments with the popular press, I believe in political pluralism and find no need to take heed of ‘hysterical’ points of view. As a teacher of history and politics you could at least give me some credit for not being swayed by populism. I voted remain in 1975, which is probably before many of the contributors to these page were even born. If I spread divisive rubbish, it isn’t from reading tabloid trash.
As far as the argument being lost in 2016….have you not noticed what has gone on since then, clearly the argument was not won, either in Parliament or the country. A corrupt and absurd bunch of confederates put themselves forward as the conscience of Britain, telling a pack of lies to those with xenophobic and wholly selfish attitudes. And this is the future that people want…I think not. If you think that the campaign for a second referendum is divisive well…what the bloody hell was the first referendum.
As for those that I teach who were not able to vote (because of age restrictions) in 2016, I’d love you to present your patronising views to them in person!
Ah the over used term “xenophobic” so loved by those who believe they always hold the moral high ground! And “wholly selfish attitudes” what a presumptuous and arrogant statement. But I am so impressed you had the time to survey the 17.4 million to confirm their thought process and attitudes, as I am sure such an educated man like yourself would not use such phrases on a public forum without the statistics to back them, now would you. I am impressed, well done.
Unless you foresee some Logan’s Runesque scenario then we’re all going to have to live it.
I have no objection to a campaign to rejoin the EU after we leave, I’d probably vote for it myself but just rerunning elections because some people changed their mind or weren’t old enough to vote in the last one is a red herring. We had a vote, I (and I guess you) lost, at the moment democracy is losing as Remainers in parliament are doing their damnedest to go against the referendum vote. Don’t get me wrong, BoJo and his bunch tried to screw it over too for their own selfish ends. I really hope I don’t have to vote for either the Tories OR that charming fellow BoJo but I will. Once it’s all over it’s back to drawing a cock and balls on my ballot paper.
Whether you or I think it’s turkeys voting for Christmas is irrelevant. The people were asked and gave an answer. By all means start the campaign to rejoin but not leaving ain’t very liberal and very undemocratic.
Well, as I have mentioned on these pages so many times before; we are not a direct democracy…referenda are advisory only, they are not legal commitments. We are a Parliamentary democracy where political decisions are taken by MPs. Parliament is against Brexit. That’s democracy!
Herodotus,
Yes, glibly put Sir. While you’re not wrong, its not how its sold to us and to be frank that’s the kind of rhetoric that plays to BoJo’s logic of the parliamentary elite ignoring the people.
Come on mate, you can do better than that surely……
There is no intended glibness…it’s a matter of fact. When it comes to constitutional change, it should not be based on offering it to the public as a preference as if it were ‘what football team you support’…or a Boaty Mc Boatface vs my backside choice. To put constitutional issues before the general public in such a way is a derogation of parliamentary responsibility. What if Churchill had appealed to the British people in a plebiscite on whether we should declare war on Germany. We elect our Parliament to make those sorts of decisions, they should not be handed back to us out of political cowardice. The only way to rectify this is to put the original pollical mistake back to the people…unfortunately, this is the only way!
“To put constitutional issues before the general public in such a way is a derogation of parliamentary responsibility. What if Churchill had appealed to the British people in a plebiscite on whether we should declare war on Germany.”
And if your auntie had baws, she’d be your uncle. The notion of referendums has been around for a wee while now. I actually agree with you that we elect our MP’s to sort this stuff out but in this case, for right or wrong they did give us the choice. We can’t pretend it didn’t happen, while referendums aren’t legally binding they should at least be a massive influence on ‘our’ (as opposed to their party’s) thinking. As it happens, the vast majority of MP’s in parliament agreed and voted that it should happen. Now, well over the last 3 years really, they’ve decided that their personal view of what should happen with regards to Brexit should take precedence over what was voted for in the referendum and what they themselves agreed should happen.
“The only way to rectify this is to put the original pollical mistake back to the people…unfortunately, this is the only way!”
Ah so 2 wrongs (cowardly referendums) do make a right…and what if the people give the same answer, or its 48/52 the other way or even 45/55… I’m not one for having a number other than 50%+1 as the baseline but surely if we have a second vote and it goes the other way by say less than 5% it would cause chaos. What happens then, best of 3 while Europe just quietly watch on and in the meantime all the parties are busy campaigning to leave/stay instead of running the country ???
Nah, not for this cat. ‘We’ voted to leave, parliament should act on that, after all, they had their wee vote to ratify it and crack on. The real ‘remain’ debate should be should we rejoin and under what terms.
We’ll just have to disagree then!
Ya gotta hate it when the other guy comes up with logic eh ?
?
Andy P thanks for your smart-arse idiot response! Of course, none of you noticed that Churchill could not have asked for a plebiscite on declaring war on Germany because he wasn’t PM in September 1939. Sometimes it’s like taking candy from a baby!
Oh Herodutus…. I seem to have upset you, for that I apologise, I wasn’t aware you’re so fragile, I’ll bear it in mind for any future exchanges.
I’ll be paying a visit to the local A&E to get that ‘burn’ treated, you’re obviously soooo much cleverer than the rest of us, some boy.
Having said that…. I did hand you your tatties…. mwahahaha.
Scenario for you, another referendum say in 6 months, vote to leave once more, parliament still won’t like it, third one then? Or will yourself and the remaining ilk agree to leave? Losers consent not being big on the remaining side at the mo. A scenario which many would be asking.
So anyone above what age should be ignored? If your 30? 40? You may die sooner so the issue and future isn’t relevant to them? I’m late 40s, hope to have a good 30 years yet, but my voice and opinion should not be allowed to be heard as I dont have to live in the future, where do you suggest all us useless old gits should go? Damn you post some chuff at times H. Next you will be saying only those paying tax should be heard, should get a vote….now there’s a thought….
Airborne, its the ‘Greta’ logic, I’m younger than you so I should get what I want…. We’ll all have our own angle but we shouldn’t demand that it should supercede anyone else’s.
Her ‘Paddington bear’ stare at ‘The Donald’ was quite funny though. If that doesn’t sort global warming, I don’t know what will…. (We need emojis).
Lots of specific emojis required I reckon mate!
Tru dat bro, tru dat.
Well the American founding fathers say: no taxation without representation…..the converse would be no representation without taxation. But we have moved on since then.
As for age, I’m up for widening suffrage to 16. At the far end we need more work on making sure the frail elderly who still have capacity can access the vote. This does raise an interest question that if someone has had there liberty deprived due to lack of capacity should they still be registered on the electoral register ?
Careful Airborne, you seem a little exercised. Bile rising in your intolerant belly is it. Froth foaming and cascading over your sofa. Always know when I’ve made a hit when silly boys like you can’t stop pressing the post comment button and Uriah Heap rushes in with an emoji. Some of you lot are really so childish and pathetic!
So I take it you have no answer to a direct question, thought as much. Great reply by the way, thought you taught kids not talk like them! Most amusing.
H, you’ve heard of irony, aye. Course you have, you’ve gone out your way to tell us how academic you are. Silly me.
He is a great example of the intolerance of the left mate. The usual preaching, and always claiming the moral high ground, yet unable to answer a few basic scenarios and questions in response to his undemocratic version of democracy. But you have to admit, his repeated insistence of his educational credentials does make you wonder somewhat!
Airborne, I don’t think its a ‘Left’ thing, if you took my ideals apart they’d break down as more Left than Right, its easy to be conceited about yourself online whatever your views are. We can all get a bit precious about ourselves and its definitely easier through the medium of the keyboard.
I’m an inbetweener I suppose as I go for the best policies, which would be best for my family, friends community and country, I certainly don’t pick a side blindly, following what “we have always voted for”. I just find leftist policies and many in the left rather smug, quite arrogant in many ways, always trying to gain the moral high ground and intolerant of those who question their thought process. The current Labour front bench are a rather sad C team, with many promoted way past their capabilities. And the sad thing is, with them being so shite, their is no effective opposition to challenge those muppets in the Conservative party who are effectively doing what they want. The way the Tories are, Labour should be ripping them apart, but due to the shocking inability of them to sort out their internal conflict and general left wing infighting, we are left with a choice of a Lib Dem team of “turnabouts” who change their policies depending on the weather or a party with only one bloody policy, and that’s Brexit!!!!! Pretty much sick of the lot of them, surely they haven’t always been this bad, and we never noticed, surely?
Yes, Momentum is to left wing for my taste, buts it’s getting a generation interested in politics who until recently looked look they would happy cash in political activism/sufferage for a new iPad.
My 18 year old self would have been well up for the cause, 30 years later it’s small c conservatism with a wee bit of left wing egalitarianism and social justice.
I care less about someone’s politics and more about the fact they are thinking about it and being democratically active ( I still deliver leaflets and support elections).
Stop criticizing the apology and start pointing out the hypocrisy of the other side.
Well Geoffrey…as has been pointed out above, why has a comment from Momentum been surgically inserted (almost a cut and paste afterthought) in the article? It adds nothing to the context and is about as relevant as what Mrs Trellis of Llandudno thinks!
To me there’s a very straightforward solution. All serving members of the armed forces sign to the Official Secrets Act? Why not get them to sign up to a social media “code of conduct” with some very specific coaching. I’m sure this must happen already. Anyway, any transgressions have a well specified and thought out list of consequences of which they should be regularly reminded of.
My young nephew is currently at depot for the cavalry, I have noticed his SM activity has reduced greatly – probably too tired/busy.
We know young people are impulsive and social media gives young servicemen/women a dangerous platform given their position, they should be given additional support to moderate their use.
It’s a good point Julian. We ask a lot of our young service personnel….to give up what other youngsters take for granted is another big ask. There needs to be a quid pro quo somewhere; perhaps better pensions?
Kids don’t join up for pensions.
Then better wages!
Not against that but most ‘youngsters’ don’t join for the wages either, it would help recruit the slightly older folk who maybe have responsibilities. Certainly at the recruit level where the pay is pretty gash.
That’s right Andy,kids join up, firstly if we have a bit of an overseas conflict going on, watching it on TV and fancy some of that, and secondly, mostly if no conflict, just to get out and do something they see as quite exciting and a bit of a challenge! Pensions aren’t even thought about and pay? Bloody hell we get paid to do it as well, awesome!
Usage and security of social media are now part of basic training package. But kids will be kids and most will love to put pics and comments about themselves and what they are up to on social media, it’s just about getting them to stop, think then post!
This is not about right and left and politics. It’s about a public servant making a seriously inappropriate comment on line. A serving soldier hoping an elected MP would die in a civil war is utterly unacceptable on a number of levels:
1) hoping anyone will die a violent death on a public forum is unacceptable from any individual to another and should be treated as the bullying that it is. It’s just amplified when it when the comment being made by a serving soldier about an elected member of this nations sovereign body.
2) Civil war, for goodness sake a serving soldier is publicly hoping for the destruction of our nation on the bloody alter of the worst thing that could ever happen to a nation.
I don’t believe in destroying an individuals life for a single error in judgement, but that’s one hell of a worrying error and I’m not sure I’d have trust in this individual defending our nations institutions of government.
This nation is going through a very disconcerting time. We actually need to step back from the leave or remain, facist or communist crap and sort out getting back our lost fraternity, we are 70 million people on a smallish island and we all need to in the words of frozen “let it go”.
Let’s not get carried away, as one point not been raised and is relevant is what length of service, rank etc was the lad who posted? Was he in, just through, basic, still a crow thinking he is the hardest man around, or more worryingly was he experienced JNCO/SNCO who can influence situations and those said junior crows. beneath him!
Most younger squaddies, within their first few years, hanging about with their peer groups and within the military culture dislike civvies, and have little respect for them. They generally know feck all about politics and live life with their mates. It’s only as you mature, gain experience and responsibility outside the military that this changes. The point I am trying to get at, and probably failing, is that the experience and knowledge of the tweeter does need to be taken into context. And I can verify that the army does take the growth of the right wing threat, outside on civvy street seriously and that they dont want that to infect the military. The problem you can have is that the military should/does reflect a cross section of the community and country, and therefore those with that view will slip through the net!
Airborne, Article stated JNCO. Really should know better and needs some very serious support in understanding the impact of what they are saying in a public forum and the impact they can have as a junior leader.
It’s showing that the level of acceptable rhetoric is really ramping up across our society ( I don’t give politicians of all colours a pass in this). nations loss cohesion if its left to run riot and we don’t want to reap that wind.
No one has an issue with a young squaddie taking shit with his mates, that’s just life and the young blowing off steam.
Again what level of experience JNCO as RMP get lance jack at the end of training, be they 19 or 29, AGC get it after a few months, etc etc, it should be more about this persons possible influence within their organization then the fact a squaddie has posted some childish chuff online. We shouldn’t get to excited about it in thinking of it as factual, future intention,it’s more of a concern about the use of social media and bringing the army into disrepute. Trust me, many soldiers have thought about cracking a few civvy politicians heads when they deploy you to a war you are not prepared or equipped for, then screw you over for doing what they sent you there for, on your return!
Unfortunately in the modern world and with where we are at present, if you hold any form of job that means you represent the state, what you think about elected representatives needs to stay between you and your mates.
Of course if you get the opportunity to give an elected official your views in a private forum, go for it, as it’s your public duty to respectfully ( or not so, if your really justifiable upset) tell them What you think is working well or not. If you feel it’s needed and justified whistle blow away.
Having once in a private professional setting told a nameless minister of state they were the “devil himself” and causing needless death with specific policy decisions, Im a firm believer in telling truth to power. But never once have I publicly on line said anything inappropriate about our elected representatives or other representatives of HMG. We all work for the same purpose (even if sometimes it does not feel like it) and must show respect to the sovereignty of parliament. I’d also be in a whole heap of brown and looking for a new job, before I could say “ whoops soz I was two sheets to the wind when I posted that”.
I’ve unfortunately had to manage the significant public harm that some juniors ( and seniors who should know better) manage to create with poor control or ability hold their tongues publicly, especially on line. Im therefore not so tolerant of the “but they are really junior and angry argument” ( even if I do understand, have been very junior and very angry in my time).
But I know one persons word can have power and create untold harm if it hits the right spot and resonates. Look how many children have been killed or harmed by measles, all because of the words ( that were utter tosh) of one Dr 20 years ago.
I know where your coming from but today’s society and thought process about responsibility and authority isn’t quite the same as possibly ours was a while back! A few old fashioned values wouldn’t go amiss in the currrnt situation that’s happening to the country at the mo! Respect, integrity and professionalism seem to be dirty words to some, certainly up to and including politicians. I don’t agree with what the soldier did, just trying to understand it in the current context of the online generation. Far to easy to tweet chuff without thinking nowadays mate!
Very true, wisdom only comes with experience and social media is a scary business.
Though your correct, the polarization we are currently finding in this county isn’t helped by the rhetoric being used by all sides!
Read it again!Absolutely no where near being a death threat or a threat of violence.
What a sad state this country has become. The issue is both sides feel that they are literally fighting for nothing less then the survival of this country.
Remainers- feel that if we leave are economy will fall as quick as the Graft Zeppelin and will would be pushed back to a pre middle ages sate as the rest of the world shun us.
Leavers- think if we remain the EU will force us to eat are own flag while are children our forcefully deported to European lands to be brain washed in to liberal fascists, all while Eastern Europe contractors demolit big ben.
So both sides are understandably going to become, violent, aggressive and see their opposition as simply ignorant and radical while being very much the same themselves. I myself admit to falling into this mind set. Until we move out of this state of limbo regardless of which direction, we will continue to hate one another.
?
Good observation. The reality is more like.
1) stay in Europe and it all says very much as we have always been, with a few really grumpy people telling us it’s an empire, the European courts making a few decisions we don’t like and either:due to increased integration in the euro zone we gradually slip to the margins and at a point it means as a nation everyone starts to agree we are not going further in the EU. Or due to demographic changes over the next 20 year we become both the economic, political and military leading nation and take over from Germany and France as the leading influence in the EU. In the longer term we will probably say bye bye to Scotland.
2) we leave, suffer a bit of and economic blip, which is forgotten in 4 years and it all goes on very much as it has been. a few grumpy people telling us we should be leaders in Europe and not such a bunch of little Englanders. Due to demographics we become economically more successful over the next 20 years and act as a moderator between the US and EU. We will probably say bye bye to Scotland.
It really won’t matter that much in 2 decades, leave or stay. The real danger is we keep stepping up the rhetoric and chew ourselves apart even more and don’t find a way to come together.
Hopefully truth be told probably, are correct.
The media loves to say it’s the right wing that is the violent wing but at least here in the US it’s mostly the left wingers that are protesting, rioting, making threats against people that don’t agree with their liberal ideology. I guess it’s alright when it’s done by liberals but not conservative people….
My two cents on the subject.
1st right radicalism has generally caused more issues throughout history then the left. Which means more eyes and suspicion is on the right
2nd undoubtedly the Western world is far more left then right and is pregressing ever more so all the time. So not only does right leaning action stand out more, but what may be considered as left wing extremisum by some i.e the removal of status may have genuine support by a large number of people across society. Where as someone demanding the instilment of say a KKK statue would obviously be shunned by everyone across society both on the left and right.
Although as i said just my owm thoughts.
Personally this seems all about PC – the bane of our age. The Army should not have apologised I believe but made a statement that it would investigate to determine whether any breach of military or civil law had occurred and deal with it accordingly.
Exactly, threatening to kill someone is an extremely serious offence and if such a thing had actually happened it should be in the hands of the police.
Mildly reckless at worst.Plenty of momentum members were constantly making statements wishing Margaret Thatcher dead while she was still alive.