Issues with Hawk training jets are forcing the UK to seek alternative options in order to train British military pilots.
John Healey, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, asked the Secretary of State for Defence:
“What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the disruption to the UK Fast Jet training is minimised over the next three years.”
James Heappey, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:
“Measures being considered include sending further trainees to the NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training programme in the USA; accelerating planning for No 11 Squadron (Joint Qatar/UK Squadron) at RAF Leeming to train RAF pilots from late 2022 until 2027; and working with allies and partners to examine whether UK pilots could be trained overseas, or where we might pool our resources, to mutual benefit.”
What issues?
It has been confirmed that ongoing work to some Hawk jets “will have an impact on UK Fast Jet training output over the next three years”.
“A fault has been identified with the Rolls-Royce/Safran Adour 951 engine, which powers the Hawk TMk2. The fault affects the components contained in the Safran manufactured Module 1 of the engine, also known as the Low-Pressure Compressor. As a precaution, a number of engines have been temporarily removed from service whilst the Ministry of Defence supports a Rolls-Royce/Safran investigation into the root cause and rectification. While this has reduced current aircraft availability, Fast Jet training is continuing at RAF Valley.
Initial assessments suggest the reduction in aircraft availability will have an impact on UK Fast Jet training output over the next three years, but work is ongoing to minimise that impact.”
How long does training take?
The Ministry of Defence recently revealed how long it takes to train fast jet, heavy lift and rotary wing pilots.
Tobias Ellwood, Chair of the Defence Committee, asked:
“To ask the Secretary of State Defence, how long it takes on average to train (a) fast jet, (b) heavy lift and (c) rotary pilots.”
James Heappey, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:
“The average time for trainee pilots completing flying training in the current Financial Year, to the point of joining an Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) is 4.8 years for Fast Jet; 5.4 years for Multi Engine (heavy lift) and; 6.9 years for Rotary Wing.
The time taken to complete OCU training can vary across the aircraft types and will result in newly qualified pilots leaving OCUs as Limited Combat Ready or Combat Ready.
There have always been planned holds built into the flying training pipeline to ensure all courses are fully utilised. Aircrew on hold fulfil other essential roles across Ministry of Defence (MOD), developing their skills in other areas of MOD business.”
Damning report finds RAF Cranwell has major issues
An investigation into an RAF officer trading academy in Lincolnshire has found that the base has “significant” issues with heating, accommodation and morale.
RAF Cranwell was one of eight regular RAF training centres across the country inspected by Ofsted as part of an investigation into welfare and duty of care in the Armed Forces’ initial training programmes between 2021 and 2022.
“Recruits and trainees generally benefit from high-quality training, care and welfare arrangements. But too often, Ofsted found senior officers and their staff spending time dealing with the legacy of a lack of investment in infrastructure, or handling poor maintenance contracts. The RAF Officer Training Academy (RAFOTA) at RAF Cranwell, for example, had classrooms with leaking roofs and accommodation blocks that frequently lacked hot water and heating.
Inspectors also found that the needs of female recruits or trainees were not being considered fully. Women are often accommodated away from their male peers to ensure privacy. But this has led to some being isolated, especially in establishments where there are very few female recruits. In other instances, staff did not always ensure that female recruits were issued with uniforms or equipment that fitted them properly, increasing the risk of injury.”
MPFS, has not been fit for purpose for a while. I know their are people on this forum who question where I get my information from and the problems with the Hawk T2 engines.
The fact is it more serious than has been admitted, if the Air Force and Navy run out of pilots we also run out of instructors and this is what is happening now.
I’d read QFIs are too busy being deployed to stay current and do their courses?
And that a large part of the hold up is actually up at the OCU stage not the MFTS stage 1 and 2?
That is partly the problem. This is how it goes, the sausage machine has not been pumping out pilots at the required rate at MPFS. This has has an effect on the front line especially on operations and the OCUs have had to pickup the slack which is sustainable in the short-term not in the longterm. It was the case during the Falklands and both gulf wars in order ro train and deploy effectively. The danger is that it has become the norm and has papered over some serious cracks. Where do we get our instructors from? Answer the front line who then go back to Valley and train future pilots, chicken and egg if you will. The figure published is just shy of 300 stuck in the system and holding at various stations. Many I’m afraid to say could be in danger of ageing out which is a complete waste in time and money on the public purse and the individuals who to all intent possibly lost a career and will have to start over again. Its a disgrace.
Yep, pretty much as I understood it, you state it better than me.
Where has the Hawk T-1A gone? If still there waiting for disposal, why not use them?
I suspect that it had a grandfathered safety case as it was in service.
Now it is out of service, as a trainer, it would need a new safety case that as it is ancient it would not meet.
All of which is, of course, cobblers IRL as it was perfectly flyable just rather out of date!
You do wonder if they would be better off getting some executive jets to increase jet training capacity to run alongside the T2’s when they are back in service. OK the executive jets won’t have things like ejector seats but there we go.
On a more positive note the new Chancellor of the Exchequer is one Jeremy Hunt who believes in Defence increase. So it is likely that defence will see a modest uplift so that when the end of one of block grant comes it won’t be a real terms cut.
But, Red Arrows are still flying?
Very true.
Well it’s nice to know things are being considered. Wake me up if they ever get around to actually doing something.
Well, which government was it that thought that …
ordering just 44 Hawk 128s ( known as T2 ) to replace 100 plus Hawk T1 was a good idea?
Clue, they were not Tory.
As it happens, that order for 44 was then reduced to 28.
How many spare engines are available I have no idea.
Cuts, while keeping up never ending commitments, come home to roost.
Hit the nail on the head!
Yes, but that is regards the engine and Hawk aircraft availability issue.
As Mark expands above too, a wider issue is too few pilots in the system meaning the OCU pilots are needed elsewhere which comes back to bite them on the arse.
If number of pilots are not enough, why Red Arrow is still flying? There are 9 (actually 12 or more) best-pilots there?
Also, if the number of air frame is not enough, why Red Arrows are flying? There are 9 or more Hawk T1s painted in red. Of course, much of the training tasks covered by Hawk T2 CANNOT be covered by Hawk T.1s. But surely, it is NOT zero.
Just wondering why….
PS not blaming your comment, just blame or questioning RAF…
Are those pilots QFIs though? The QFIs need to take courses to stay current and are often too busy elsewhere to rotate to 4 FTS ( Valley where the Hawk training takes place)
I agree in some other respects regards the aircraft. The T2 has the modern LED displays and all and is seen as a more seamless step from advanced trainer to front line fast jet, but can they not just learn to fly without that and do that bit in the simulators?
As I’m not a pilot I’m just speculating there and there may be valid reasons why that does not work?
Yes, until recently there were plenty of Hawk T1s. I’d read 17 are retained for the Red Arrows role. The Red Arrows also have a display season and I do not think fly all year round anyway.
The training issue at Valley is obviously getting pretty close to squeaky bum time, but using OCU instructors to back fill the frontline has been around a long time. We had 899 Instructors supporting 800NAS deployments back in the Sea Harrier FA2 day’s. And 29sqn OCU Instructors have often held QRA at Coningsby going back years. We still have a dedicated Typhoon display pilot, so we can’t be that short. Looking at the operational output of the Typhoon force in recent years, they have performed at an unbelievable level. Meeting all operational requirements and a full exercise programme around the globe and QRA North/South and the Falklands. Problems exists, but we always find a way.
Agreed. Is that success also not contributing to this issue though? We are indeed maintaining commitments, and by “running hot” when can we reset and get QFIs back to doing the training stuff?
What happened to all the GR4 pilots BTW? Were they absorbed into the Typhoon force or retired?
Probably both, and some went to F35. But not many GR4 pilots left by the time of disbandment. We must be close to the point that somthing will have to give. But we always just seem to manage, whatever is thrown our way. The can do attitude of the Armed Force’s is probably counter productive in some ways, especially when it comes to how politicians view our Armed Force’s structure and availability.
Tornado training stopped some time before the aircrafts retirement. As such I suspect for a good many of the pilot’s who where already deep in their career it wasn’t deemed economically viable to train then on a new type and so many may have been given ground jobs. I only say that as I spoke to a RAF Sea King pilot around the time its retirement and he said all the Sea King force was offered early retirement or a desk job. With only a few of the younger ones offered the chance to re qualify.
The problem is the air force will soon have a shortage of pilots down the line. If we can’t train pilots now in 2 to 3 years it will hit the frontline.
There are no spare engines, which is part of the problem. Who ever decided that is a fool but the argument goes if you have say 6 T2s in major maintenance those engines could be used to keep the rest of the fleet going.
And I agree that argument is cobblers too. I know about cannibalization of existing is widespread when aircraft/ships are in Depth M but that leaves the cupboard bare when problems arise.
Most likely the same fool who decided to close down our offshore gas storage wells.
Seems to me they need a new advanced jet trainer and pronto.
Copy of the Poles. Buy South Korean asap. You could probably get 100 in service before 2025 and resolve the issue of fast jet/ light fighter/ light strike for a generation
Korean T/F 50 series. Cost approx £18 million each. So £1.8 billion would purchase a fleet of 100 very useful trainers/ secondary light fighters/ close air support/ light strike aircraft.
If the Koreans can deliver a fleet of upto 100 for the RAF really quickly the issue with trainer aircraft goes away for a whole generation.
And so do our exports of Hawks, and any furture custom…
The Hawk has probably reached the end of the road now in terms of exports,as successful as it has been there are better options out there.
Hawk production has ended. The Qatari ones will be the last.
Why not restart it?
What about the new UK modular trainer, “Aeralis”? I hope that project gets off the ground, quite literally. Still not built or flying yet. Could be a successor to Hawk.
How far has the UK fallen to be forced to buy these basic jets from Korea? That’s not suggesting Korea are bad.
But the operational cost differs a lot. These jet trainers must fly.
If ordering something new, why not just add ~12 more Hawk T2s? If the problem is solved, it can replace the Red Arrows’ 9 Hawk T1s (and 3 “spare” airframes)
Maybe scrounge a couple of dozen Goshawks off our US friends and train QFIs first off. For multi engine heavy lift send the candidates to commercial outfits. I’m sure the navy never took 7+ years to train chopper guys back in the 60s/70s so why so long – someone milking it for profit?
That’s the thing if you cut jets ,well it not affect pilot training come on how hard is it to work out 🤔 God help us.
We need a cheap jet made in the UK in numbers over 500 so we can drive the price down for the basic model to about 20M. Cheap & mass produced.
And what are we going to do with 500 cheap jets?
Fit AI flight controls and we can have a 500 fleet red arrows. Now how wouldn’t pay to see that😂😂😂
Buy Aeralis, British. They seem to have it sorted, and the best bit is the interesting pilotless. variant. Loyal wingman. No problem. ISTAR..no problem. Commonality of spares and so on.
Remote controlled red Arrows….hmmmmm
AA
Vapourware.
Only just read your comment on Aeralis.
Use them as the workhorse of the RAF. Interception duty. Station a couple of squadrons in Cyprus, Gibralter, Falklands etc. Keep 100-200 to lend-lease to Countries like Ukraine so that they can defend themselves.Some should be mothballed so we have something in reserve.Some will be constantly stationed in friendly countries or on joint exercises.
Yes we need all singing all dancing kit but sometimes it is wise to have good but simple kit in numbers. Just a thought.
Have you been listening to the New Chancellor… There isn’t likely to be anything close to the 3% by 2030.
The new Chancellor won’t be around in 2030. Probably won’t be around in 2023!
Jesus the RAF is getting to be as bad as the army for bad press.
How many pilots do we need to train anyway? The only applicants who will be accepted these days are one armed green and yellow spotted transvestites, surely there can’t be that many of them?
Good if it can be done with the U.S but where else are we going to go to train up for the F35? Italy? Japan? What a bloody mess. I’m beginning to wonder if we’re capable of doing anything right.
We do a huge amount right Geoff.
That is seriously in question.
Don’t forget that a lot of training for the F35 is now synthetic (simulator).
Yes it is, but in order to fly the F35 anyway or anything else for that matter you have to go through basic flying training.
Wake up call: spend more on defence, and stop buying components from our French ‘allies’
👍 wot he said!
Is this issue to do with Rolls Royce ?
Safran ?.
It seems, after checking that they (Safran) are carry out all manufacturing. Odd as I know only 3 years ago, RR were looking at new equipment for overhaul of this engine
Oh dear oh dear. Obviously this needs to be fixed ASAP. I would of said any increase in RAF budget should go into training first but that increase looks about as safe as an ice bridge on a hot sunny day.
Chancellor sacked after a few weeks by the PM. How dare he do would mrs truss said she would do all through her campaign🙈. 3% of gdp is getting smaller everyday recently.
The way I’m looking at it is that Krazi has been defenestrated by the ejecto-seat, and Little Miss Dotty is now driving the clown car on her own.
Hoping for improvement but not holding my breath.
🙄
Doesnt this effect the US training capacity too? They are belatedly making the changes to address compressor stalls as well but this issue has been known about for 20 years and a fix developed 15 years ago just not implemented as not treated as a priority.
Send the pilots to Sardinia, weather is generally good.
Leonardo International Flight Training School
Have Hawks here in Australia and India. Lots of space up North. Nice weather and views to be had. No language issues…
In international school everyone talks English, there are Germans and Japanese AF pilots there plus it is setup with simulators and all other stuff for training.
But if Australians can do maybe an option, but i am puzzled why there are issues with RAF Hawks but not others.
A week ago I saw an excellent display at Duxford by the Swiss Air Force aerobatics team, flying the F-5E. Perhaps we could ask Switzerland to come to our rescue ?
7 years for rotary !!!!
What engine does the Goshawk use?.
Adour.
So no pilots in the next few years. Good job really with 3% of HMG promises in the bin already. Pity pilot training doesn’t take the same time as a political promise. Worse if Starmer gets in kiss good by to Tempest, and what’s the point spending of wasted billions on a plane with no one to fly them ? Mucking fess comes to mind.
Not interested in those wishing to be appologists for this situation, it’s unacceptable, smacks of a tin pot nation and third rate military.
So the innovative efficient pilot training scheme fail. Fact. It must be rectified.
<to save the day>
How about disbanding Red Arrows for three years, and think of replacing some of the training work with vintage Hawk T1?
<to rectify the issue>
Look like the system needs a margin, so why not order 12 more Hawk T2s, as the last production run of Hawk? If it became redundant 3 years later, just paint it in RED and use it re-activate Red Arrows?
I apologise if i have incorrectly read this, but it seems to say that it takes between (approx) 5 years and 7 years to train a pilot?
really? *is that right? what on earth are they doing for that time?
I find it hard to believe the Hawk T1s retired last year could not be brought back into service to help reduce the pilot backlog (they were supposed to keep going to 2030 – what changed?). They would fulfil some of the training backlog and be cheaper and better than alternatives. This whole crisis looks manufactured and created to suit an agenda of off shoring training and ditching the Hawk T2 as well as the T1. The T2 is far from obsolete and could continue to be exported with the will to do so. The appalling foot dragging over upgrading the Hawk to have the slatted wing retrofitted and also fitted on all new build Hawks has undermined its prospects. It seems strange the US can upgrade and continue to sell its 70s teen series fighters (f15, f16 and so on) whilst Britain’s 70’s vintage but frankly still excellent Hawk is deemed beyond useful commercial life – cobblers! Some gun hoe can do commercial back bone is required of the UK aerospace industry to keep going with the Hawk and develop and export it further. It is just a case of having the will to do so.