The Royal Netherlands Air Force is getting ready to send eight of their F-35 fighter jets to Malbork, Poland to support NATO’s Enhanced Air Policing mission.
The deployment will take place in February and March 2023, and four of the jets will be used for air policing duties while the other four will participate in training and exercises with allies.
The mission is aimed at strengthening the defensive posture along NATO’s eastern flank.
“With these eight modern fighter aircraft, the Netherlands contribute to NATO’s Air Policing and Air Shielding missions in deterring and if required defending Allied territory in the Baltic region,” said Lieutenant Colonel Guido Schols, Commander of the Netherlands F-35 detachment.
“We are also assuring our Allies and demonstrating our commitment to the NATO Alliance,” he added.
What is NATO’s Enhanced Air Policing mission?
NATO’s Enhanced Air Policing mission is a defensive measure that involves NATO member countries deploying fighter jets to patrol the airspace of other NATO member countries that do not have the capability to do so themselves or, in this case, would benefit from a show of solidarity and capability on behalf of the alliance.
The goal of this mission is to ensure the integrity of NATO’s airspace and to safeguard the Alliance’s members against any potential air threats. This mission is typically carried out on a rotational basis, with different NATO countries taking turns to provide the fighter jets and personnel for the mission.
The deployment of fighter jets to patrol the airspace of other NATO countries is also a way for NATO to demonstrate its commitment to the collective defence of all its member countries.
With CH2 tanks being provided to UkR, we are now involved in a major European war – and it is apparent that we have more F35B airframes than pilots to fly them. Our most experienced pilot has just retired. RAF fast jet training has apparently stopped, as the Hawk F2 trainers have been grounded due to engine issues.
This situation is yet another MoD total shambles and it is time someone asked a question in parliament. The security of the realm may depend upon it.
Ch2 haven’t been giving to UKR??
Perhaps we should just continue training the F35 pilots in the US and get them numbers up. The RN had a load of current fast jets pilots which would have more than covered what the UK needed as the RAF can’t sort it. Back with the USMC for them and we can then get them airborne. The Pilot training system in the UK as you rightly say is a TOTAL SHAM and truly embarrassing when others can deliver more with less. God help us.
It gets worse. As has repeatedly been discussed on this forum, the F35B are not yet certified for the missile fit that we want for them.
Currently the UK F-35B Lightning is cleared to employ the Paveway IV Precision Guided Munition, the Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile and the Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile
Future Capability uplifts will introduce the Spear Capability 3 Air to Surface weapon and the Meteor Air to Air Missile
All from George Allason 14 July 2022
What is the point of having a carrier strike capability if we don’t have a full weapons fit to fight with when we get there?
Well some slight good news is that Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3) has been flown for the first time this month I believe and if plans work out will be in production aircraft later this year, a good reason for delaying new aircraft deliveries I guess especially if we don’t have the pilots. Trouble is while preventing a later costly update I am not sure that in itself it offers much until Block 4 (which requires it) comes into play which now is not til 2029 if there are no further delays. Not great is it. I assume Block 4 is needed for adding new weaponry or can others be integrated prior to that and does TR-3 influence that at all?
I agree that its the software that is slowing everything down. The missile mountings and release mechanisms are in place and so are the data links. The Israelis do their own software upgrades and they have been using their own, heavily modified version (the ADIR) with absolute impunity all over the Middle East. Which shows what can be done with this warplane
Blk4 isn’t just a big software upgrade, it’s more akin to a mid life upgrade when you look at the increase in capability. A new radar, the APG-85 is also being installed.
A now new engines as well. It’s practically tranche 5 for typhoon equivalent.
Improvements to the radar will be most welcome!
“Sometimes pilots have to press Ctrl+Alt+Delete while in flight to reboot the multimillion-dollar radar.”
LINK
A bit more on the radar can be found here, it appears to be unclear at present if it is only for the USA or all F-35 customers.
Another article written by a 14 year old it seems, full of unbelievable inaccuracies. The type you thrive on Nigel.
The new radar is for all F-35s
Do you have a link to the confirmation of this as I could not find one? It appears the Radar will only be fitted as far back as lot 10 aircraft.
Thank you in advance.
https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/releases/northrop-grumman-developing-the-next-generation-radar-for-the-f-35-lightning-ii
In terms of the lots it doesn’t say but it does say it will be compatible with all F35 variants.
January 9, 2023 F-35, Military Aviation
“some more details, saying that TR3 is being installed in all new production aircraft, including the Lot 15 aircraft currently being delivered, and retrofitted on all the F-35s already in service back to Lot 10. The retrofit, which requires 14 days of downtime, will be performed during scheduled maintenance.”
“Northrop Grumman says the 1,000th APG-81 radar will be delivered this year and more than 3,000 are expected to be built throughout the life of the program. It is not known now how the now radar will change these numbers, as the available unclassified details are few. It is also unknown if this radar will be available to all F-35 users or if it will be a US-only system.”
LINK
As of January 2023
“some more details, saying that TR3 is being installed in all new production aircraft, including the Lot 15 aircraft currently being delivered, and retrofitted on all the F-35s already in service back to Lot 10. The retrofit, which requires 14 days of downtime, will be performed during scheduled maintenance.”
“Northrop Grumman says the 1,000th APG-81 radar will be delivered this year and more than 3,000 are expected to be built throughout the life of the program. It is not known now how the now radar will change these numbers, as the available unclassified details are few. It is also unknown if this radar will be available to all F-35 users or if it will be a US-only system.”
LINK
The new radar is for all customers that’s the point of the F35, its only speculation that it wouldn’t be available but not supplying it undermines the principle of the program. Remember the current radar was cutting edge when it came out and there was not dumbed down version for non US customers. So there’s no precedent set to not supply the latest tech.
F35s are now patrolling NATO boarders bit odd for a plane that needs its systems rebooted. 🙂 They’ve also been spotted flying on the boarder of Ukraine without radar refectors. So again odd these apparently useless aircraft are being flown where they could end up in a high end fight if things went wrong. If these aircraft were as bad as some of the articles state they would not be performing these roles its that simple.
Austria threatened to sue Airbus over missold Eurofighters no country is threatening Lockheed as of yet, so it appears the jets are performing to spec. Another example is Norways NH90 helicopters they want there money back as the aircraft isn’t performing. Read up on Australian Tiger helicopters also.
Did you see the article on UKDJ in relation to aircraft types flying to protect NATO airspace, I found this image useful.
I understand Russia is doing the exact same thing with its 5th gen aircraft.
As for the F35 performing to spec.
Full Operating Capability for the British F-35 fleet was planned for 2023, it has now slipped by two years to 2025.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/full-operating-capability-for-british-f-35-jets-delayed/
The Dutch are missing from that graphic, they have started patrolling NATO boarders with the F35.
You see the UKDJ article has a correction stating there is no change in the FOC date. But either way FOC has more to do with the UK and how we’re rolling out the capability and one issue we have with FOC is pilot training which is ironically hampered by issues with the T2 Hawk engine. So not achieving FOC is not an F35 performance problem. We’d be suffering even with a different airframe.
Unfortunately, there’s no strong “British” lobby or guilt over history from being British to push the US along as Israel do.
HI Spyinthesky, a bit more on the subject can be found via this link
And on the flip side (software Changes) have been going on for years as we know and can cause additional problems.
Early days!
You do seem a little obsessed with criticizing the F35. A lot of the criticism it gets is warranted by the way but the thing is the F35 is not unique in the developmental issues it has faced. Almost every major platform you can think of has had similar issues and the only reason you have so much to be critical about is the transparent nature of US military procurement. All the great weapons and platform that you personally love has had major issue, just that you haven’t heard about them or chose to ignore them.
You only have to look at the spiralling costs and delays from what was promised when we signed up for the programme and we still have no idea when it will be fit for purpose to work out why I’m not too fond of it.
As a UK citizen, I pay my taxes and expect value for money.
The fact that other systems have and still do have problems doesn’t change the fact that the F-35 in its current form offers us minimal capability, in small numbers, and it will not be worth purchasing further aircraft until the issues with it have been addressed which will be in 2029 at the earliest without risking additional investment to rectify any issues that might be found.
Do you think there might be any chance of us being drawn into a conflict before then?
Do you think Typhoon is value for money when you look at the vast amount of money it has cost the UK taxpayer? The huge cost overruns and delays have been worth it? The original requirement for 250 aircraft ends up with us only having 107 aircraft post 2025? Its still years away from an AESA radar being fitted. It had been in service 15 years before StormShadow and Brimstone integration. Personally, I think Typhoon is a fantastic aircraft, and it has all been worth it. But as another poster said, the problems F35 has been through is nothing new. F22 had an incredibly difficult birth, so did F15/16, B1B, Rafale, Gripen all had long delays and very large cost overruns. But the capability F35 provides is definitely worth it, what it can do today, and what it will do well into the future. It certainly doesn’t have ‘limited capability’ as you say, far from it. You just don’t understand the capability, or choose not too. Most importantly, our adversaries have nothing close to it, and airforces around the world want the capability F35 provides more then anything else.
Spot on!
What happened to the 138 order?
November 2022
The Ministry of Defence only has just over 20 of the next-generation £100m warplanes but cannot even man all of them, Ben Wallace confirmed.
“It’s a shambles,” a former Royal Air Force officer said.
Speaking to a committee of Peers, the defence secretary described the situation as “quite a challenge”, claiming that the deficit in pilots was also because the F-35 Lightning aircraft is new.
However, the Ministry of Defence formally announced its intention to buy the jets – a programme led by the United States and the US defence giant Lockheed Martin – back in 2006, and the first British pilot flew one in 2010.
The defence secretary conceded that the military’s flying training – beset by delays, with pilots waiting up to eight years to qualify instead of the target time of between two-to-three years – was a key factor.”
LINK
And still not fit for purpose according to Air Force Lieutenant General Clint Hinote.
LINK
TR-3 account for a $330 million increase in the F-35’s development costs, according to a report from the Government Accountability Office. Development of Block 4 is now three years late and will continue until 2029, the GAO said in April 2022.
LINK
So, 2029 and counting before it can achieve what it said it could do when we signed up for it.
That’s what I call value for money! I wonder why the USA is reducing the number of F-35s they intended to purchase. nothing to do with cost surely?
Now scheduled for spring 2023 report hopefully before 2024 but not ruled out. Our adversaries have nothing close to it apparently so why test it, in that case, 😂 Nothing quite like a bit of bull💩 to try and impress eh!
“To prove out new software, the program office intends to rely more on modeling and simulation tools like the Joint Simulation Environment, which emulates high-end threats.
However, the DOT&E report states that the Pentagon needs to adequately fund these simulation tools, and that as of the writing of the report, no significant changes to the F-35’s existing laboratories or simulation environments had occurred, the report said.”
Desperate stuff that Nigel. More of the usual copy and paste from articles that are far from reality. I don’t need to prove anything to you. the 890 aircraft in service are doing very nicely and the 17 nations that have the aircraft in service or on order speaks for itself. Canada just committed to 88 F35’s. Why don’t you ask them for the data and why they selected it over all the competition instead of relying on the Warzone.com. UK procurement is slow, but the RAF/RN wouldn’t swap it for anything else. Even Typhoon pilots think we should buy more F35’s now they have witnessed first hand what it can do. Get used to it Nigel, its going to be around till 2070 plus. You can’t even get the number of aircraft the UK has in service correct. Or the number of pilots.
7 Nov 2022
“Currently, the UK has 27 of the short take-off vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B aircraft and a combined total of 33 pilots able to operate the platform, including three on exchange from the US Air Force, US Marine Corps (USMC) and Australian Royal Air Force.”
UKDJ
The arrival of three F-35B jets means the UK has now taken delivery of 30 jets. With one aircraft lost in an accident and three test jets in the US, there are now 26 of the type in operational service in the UK.
“In a statement to Defense News on Tuesday, the F-35 Joint Program Office confirmed it issued guidance as a result of the incident and that some higher-risk F-35s are grounded, at least until January. The JPO, which said the guidance was dated Tuesday, declined to specify how many F-35s are unable to fly.
“The F-35 Joint Program Office has issued a Time Compliance Technical Directive (TCTD) to restrict some aircraft, which have been evaluated to be of higher risk, from flight operations while the investigation into the mishap on December 15 continues and until procedures can be developed for their return to flight,” the JPO said.
The affected aircraft have been identified, and the JPO will work with the [U.S. military] services and [international] partners to ensure compliance with the TCTD.”
No substance, as usual, It’s the source of the supplied information, just ask the pilots Nigel they love them 😂 The RN wouldn’t fly with anything else 😂 what else do they have to fly with, with the carriers in their current configuration 😂
Out of credible answers again, same old, same old!
7 Nov 2022
“Currently, the UK has 27 of the short take-off vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B aircraft and a combined total of 33 pilots able to operate the platform, including three on exchange from the US Air Force, US Marine Corps (USMC) and Australian Royal Air Force.”
“In a statement to Defense News on Tuesday, the F-35 Joint Program Office confirmed it issued guidance as a result of the incident and that some higher-risk F-35s are grounded, at least until January. The JPO, which said the guidance was dated Tuesday, declined to specify how many F-35s are unable to fly.
“The F-35 Joint Program Office has issued a Time Compliance Technical Directive (TCTD) to restrict some aircraft, which have been evaluated to be of higher risk, from flight operations while the investigation into the mishap on December 15 continues and until procedures can be developed for their return to flight,” the JPO said.
The affected aircraft have been identified, and the JPO will work with the [U.S. military] services and [international] partners to ensure compliance with the TCTD.
A source familiar with the program, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss details of the incident, said the initial assessment of the investigation, which is being conducted by the Naval Air Systems Command with the support of the JPO, found that a propulsion system issue led to the Dec. 15 crash of the hovering F-35B, which has now led to broader groundings in the fleet.”
UKDJ
“The arrival of three F-35B jets means the UK has now taken delivery of 30 jets. With one aircraft lost in an accident and three test jets in the US, there are now 26 of the type in operational service in the UK.”
I don’t need to provide credible answers to you Nigel. 890 aircraft in service and rapidly growing. You can share as many reports as you like, it isn’t stopping anyone from buying F35, and ever more nations are adding it to the order book. You are are just digging yourself a bigger hole, and looking ever more stupid. Did you criticise Typhoon in the same way in the 90’s and early 00’s? Are you appalled at the cost, and the fact its taken 20 years to get it to the capability it provides today? No of course you didn’t , you haven’t got the common sense for that. Just a keyboard warrior who hates F35 like a 10 year old boy hates barbie. And now you are using crashes and pilots safety as a last ditch attempt to prove yourself. Pathetic. Aircraft crash, its an unfortunate side of fast jet operations, especially when such large numbers of an aircraft type are in service.
This link has some additional info about the radar and other upgrades coming to the F35
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/sensors-electronic-warfare/weekly-debrief-f-35-program-sneaks-major-radar-upgrade
Lovely. Thanks mate.
I wonder if the penny is starting to drop or if the credible answers are running out again 😂, now changed to look what we have to look forward to from past comments of “we will have 138 F-35B Nigel, get used to it” 😂
I wonder how many of our F-35B aircraft are flying overhead at the moment? the sound really is something to behold I’ve heard😂 😂
Summary of the Fiscal Year 2023 National Defense Authorization Act
Authorizes funding for an additional five F-35A aircraft.
Authorizes funding for eight F-18E/F aircraft. Authorizes funding for 16 F-35C aircraft. Authorizes funding for 15 F-35B aircraft
Anything to do with the outcome of the war games I mention time and again 🙄
A senior U.S. Air Force officer has said that there is no value in including the service’s current fleet of F-35A Joint Strike Fighters in tabletop wargames simulating future high-end conflicts, such as one covering an American military response to a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.😂
But of course, one person on here knows more that the Pentagon, DOD, or an Airforce General
When can we expect to see full-rate production? has it been delayed once again😂I heard late 2023/24 is being touted if all goes well this time round with a finalised version of Block 4 by 2029!
How long does it take to fix the corrosion issues and at what cost?
“A report obtained by ABC has recommended the use of full-time dehumidification units to offset the corrosion risk to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighters stationed at RAAF Williamtown.
The KPMG report focused on the risk of intergranular corrosion posed by salt and ‘other climatic conditions’ to an aluminium alloy (AA 7085) used to build the aircraft.
“AA 7085 is reported to have increased susceptibility to intergranular corrosion,” the report said.
“This can degrade the material properties causing stress cracking and cause tensile stress which can impact adjacent components.”
How about the lightning restrictions?
November 21, 2022 at 1:38 PM
“WASHINGTON — The most widely used version of the F-35 still can’t fly in lightning, and despite hardware and software modifications, the Pentagon doesn’t have a path forward to lift ongoing flight restrictions.”
You still at it? Are you even a human being Nigel with a brain and a soul, or are you one of those troll computer programs waiting for victims to reply to you with more cut and paste jobs because its obvious you can’t think for yourself. I’ll enjoy watching you wipe even more egg from your face as this aircraft progresses over the coming years. And works alongside Tempest when Typhoon is long retired from RAF service . Let me tell you a secret Nigel. All fast jets don’t like flying through lightning. And you are still wetting your pants over full rate production given the go ahead, well 890 aircraft is more production then most projects can dream of. Can’t wait till it really ramps up.
The facts really are hurting! more B💩 from the master without any substance as usual. 😂
“F-35 SUSTAINMENT DOD Faces Several Uncertainties and Has Not Met Key Objectives
“Even with the improvement since fiscal year 2019, the F-35’s full mission capable and mission capable rates have not met program-established targets for each of the F-35 variants, as shown in figure 4.6 For example, in fiscal year 2021, the F-35A and F-35B were below the full mission capable minimum performance target by 14 and 41 percentage points, respectively.
Furthermore, each F-35 variant in fiscal year 2021 did not meet its target for mission-capable minimum performance by at least about 9 percentage points.
The 2021-2023 sustainment contract with the prime contractor, Lockheed Martin, placed financial incentives on improving full mission capable rates of each F-35 variant rather than mission capable rates.
According to DOD officials, previous sustainment contracts placed incentives on the program’s ability to achieve specific mission-capable rates across the enterprise, which measures an aircraft’s ability to complete at least one mission.
While an aircraft’s ability to achieve one mission is useful, the F35 is a multimission platform. An inability to conduct all required missions limits the effectiveness of the aircraft.
Furthermore, given the F-35’s role in the future of tactical aviation—including its enhanced situational awareness and next-generation stealth capabilities—it is increasingly important that the F-35 has its full capabilities available to the warfighter.
Our prior and ongoing work shows that two key challenges—spare parts availability and maintenance—have resulted in the F-35 program not being able to meet its performance targets.
7 While some improvements have been made, these challenges continue to prevent the program from meeting its minimum performance targets, much less its performance objectives. Specifically:”
Graph page8-10 Mission Capable Full Mission Capable
“The new radar will probably be available in time to equip seven jets at the tail end of the Lot 17 F-35 contract, options for which were set between the Joint Program Office and Lockheed Martin earlier this month.
The Joint Program Office said only that the new radar “is planned for fielding in Lot 17.” Lot 17 aircraft could potentially be delivered by late 2025 or early 2026.
The need to provide power and cooling for these additional features is one of the reasons the Air Force is in the throes of deciding whether to equip Block 4 versions of its F-35As with an all-new engine based on one of the Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AETP) powerplants or an upgrade package being touted by Pratt & Whitney, which is the sole maker of the F135 engine that powers the fighter.”
How much will this cost and when?
No doubt the clown in the room didn’t read my post on UKDJ fifteen days ago regarding Tempest and makes a complete fool of himself once again.
Give it up Blay and stay off the wine, even I feel embarrassed for you.
December 28 2022
F135 engine upgrade receives £62m funding boost
Some good news nonetheless!
“The UK MoD FCAS director, Richard Berthon, told Airforce Technology that a single supersonic demonstrator aircraft will be manufactured for the 2027 first flight, although declined to comment which systems will be initially tested on the platform.
“The flight itself is one milestone of many milestones,” Berthon said.
Work in progress
The design has also flown 100 hours digitally, testing key elements ahead of the start of platform manufacture, while the flight demonstrator platform was described by officials as being “low observable”.
On 18 July engine manufacturers, Rolls-Royce also presented details of Project Orpheus, a programme to develop and run a new design jet turbine in under 18 months, which would be used to inform propulsion requirements for Tempest.”
LINK
Are you for real? or just thick? You think the buy rate for F35 in 2023 is lower because of a simulated war game? 🤣🤣 🤣 I don’t think defence is for you Nigel. Maybe take up gardening or golf.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/pentagon-budget-2023-usaf-reduces-f-35-procurement-but-grows-combat-air-funding
I think this article explains it in plain enough English for you Nigel from a reputable website. I know you love a link. 😉 I’d read the full thing as well, not just the headline. Note the commitment is still for 1,763 aircraft. And buying more when block 4 is ready makes perfect sense. Its like if the RAF could have bought more Tornado GR1’s or wait 18 months and get Tornado GR4. Its common sense. I can’t explain it in simpler terms then that. Or do you still think 6th gen will be available from 2025? that was a cracker of a prediction. 😆
Value for money? Let’s look at some purchase cost figures.
15% of the F35 by value is built in the UK and roughly 50% of a UK build ends up in the Treasury, through various taxes down the supply chain. Any that we buy have an effective 7.5% discount.
Now, the US intends to buy around 2,400 F-35s. 7.5% of 2,400 is 180. So the UK Treasury’s take on the US build covers the first 180 planes, and applying our own 7.5% discount takes that over 194 jets. So the US purchase alone brings in enough UK taxes to buy 194 planes. That’s ignoring foreign sales and the fact that the US is an early adopter and early planes cost more.
We could buy over 200 F-35s and our purchase costs would be covered by other countries. How’s that for value for money?
You know what reduces the UK tax take? People talking the F-35 programme down so the US buys fewer. The UK buying fewer also discourages the US from buying. We should have a mapped out programme for 140 planes right now without precluding buying more. We should state that the Tempest system will dovetail with the F-35, and mean it. Anything to keep the US commitment high and the money flowing in.
Oh dear. If anyone thinks the US or any other military consults with the UKDJ for the views of it’s forum members before purchasing, you’re being very silly.
I do agree that the procurement totals would mean that the UK effectively gets 200 F35’s for free. Perhaps the MOD going back on it’s word with orders has been the reason why the US hasn’t given the UK the same option with it’s new 6th gen JSF.
Hello Jon, sadly the facts from those in the know reduce the F-35 purchases which will not do what it said on the can from its inception until at least 2029.
The-equipment-plan-2022-to-2032.pdf
“eight equipment programmes as red, meaning that successful delivery appears to be unachievable. 31 These include Lightning, Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon, Ajax, and Core Production Capability for nuclear submarine reactors;
Summary of the Fiscal Year 2023 National Defense Authorization Act
Authorizes funding for an additional five F-35A aircraft.
Authorizes funding for 15 F-35B aircraft.
Authorizes funding for 16 F-35C aircraft.
36 in total for 2023
Today’s F-35As Not Worth Including In High-End War Games According To Air Force General
I’m certain this won’t change your mind about the F35 but still an interesting read on the new radar..
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/sensors-electronic-warfare/weekly-debrief-f-35-program-sneaks-major-radar-upgrade
👍This makes interesting reading too.
“Northrop said the new radar is an “advanced multifunction sensor that will be compatible with all variants of the F-35 aircraft and will be capable of defeating current and projected adversarial air and surface threats.” It is not yet clear if it will be retrofitted to existing models of the fighter.”
A new engine upgrade for cooling it would appear.
Time will tell of course and at what additional cost?
I wouldn’t bother mate, Nigel hates the F35 like a 10 year old hates sprouts. He knows nothing about the aircraft, or what its capable of. A serving F35 pilot could tell him exactly what this aircraft is all about and what it can do and he’d still argue the toss with the poor fella.
Minimal capability?. Its a flying super computer with unparalleled sensors and largely undetectable or certainly less detectable than any other Western jet other than the F22.
It took a decade of operation with Typhoon to get its full weapons load out.
Our F35B already carry AMRAAM, Paveway IV and ASRAAM. That makes then already more capable than virtually any other aircraft on the planet.
Once the get SPEAR and Meteor they will be even better but it’s already pretty amazing.
And we do have Typhoon to do the other roles as well.
Are you implying that the Spear missile will never be ready? Or that without it the F-35B has no weapons to carry at all?
The US have had their own issues. In October the T45 Goshawks were grounded due to engine issues
It is the same issue T45 Goshawks are based on BAE Hawk and the same engine.
I can assure you, that no matter what problems the RAF are facing with pilot training (it’s training of pilots across the board, for all the armed forces by the way) they currently retain far more trained, and pilots in training, than the RN.
No tanks have been provided as of yet and the ones that ‘might’ be will no doubt be from stored stocks which wont be operated by UK forces so no we arent directly involved in a war in Europe.
The solution is fix the hawks, if they break they break they need fixing its hardly someones fault sat in parliament that the engines have broke.
It seems obvious we need a new fast jet trainer aircraft/ secondary light attack/ light fighter. Plenty of options out there in this category.
MOD need to drum up some money and get the damn issue sorted. In the meantime agree send pilots to US to train.
As I previously commented the US have training issues as well due to a similar engine problem with the Hawk derivative T45 Goshawk. Have a look at the articles on defensenews.com
I doubt that the quoted number of 10 tanks will actually be sent. With numbers that small, there is almost no point due to the additional logistical burden of adding them in. We’d be better off finding some way of pushing the Germans and the Polish to supply an overall higher number of Leopard 2’s.
Also, that’d hardly be the start of our involvement in this war… we’ve been involved since the start.
I think you will find this offer of Challengers is precisely that, it was done in association with Poland offering Leopards (who have wished to for ages) in deliberate moves to pressure Germany to both deliver their own tanks and/or permit others to supply Leopards. They have said they would only do so as part of a larger group doing so, so this is an attempt to push that narrative. However as of yesterday the Germans have said they won’t as yet send tanks and have not had any request from others asking to permit them to send tanks (but that’s the usual first response I find). The Germans are now saying that any decision to supply tanks must be coordinated with the US (as with Bradley’s/Marder last week) who so far seem reluctant to supply Abrams though let’s be honest that may be greatly related to the Leopard being far more suitable for the circumstances involved ie support. I note US tanks have arrived in Holland on their way to Poland which may well help free up Poland to supply their Leopards IF Germany allows. I think the added pressure will likely get this done, it’s when. I wonder if a token supply of Abrams like the UK offer finally breaks German resistance, even if neither UK or US tanks for different reasons would be extensibly used I suspect.. Maybe the UK offer (as well as showing willing after US, French and German fighting vehicle offers) is equally to nudge the US to work to encourage the Germans by doing just that sort of plan.
I agree that it’s a good tool to get the cogs turning and get the delivery of Leopards moving in the right direction.
My point on logistics is more based around the fact it’s adding another new vehicle into the fleet with different maintenance needs and ammunition type.
I have seen somewhere that the Finns may also get involved with some sort of donation of Leopards to add to the number that Poland is willing to supply.
Perhaps Poland might be willing to supply their Leopards in the short term, back filled by our C2s for the medium term until their Abram and Black Panthers start being delivered?
That’s pretty much what Poland agreed to yesterday, no need or mention of backfilling with CR2 though
My only concern with sending Challenger 2 is what if one – or more – should fall into Russian hands? In particular, my concern pertains to the Dorchester armour. I know it has been around since 1998 when Challenger 2 was first introduced but I wouldn’t want the Russians getting any knowledge/know-how from it.
Which leads me to Challenger 3…. I can’t find anything worth the paper it’s written on regarding the armour intended to be used, beyond it’s ‘an upgrade’ over Challenger 2. Anybody know what is planned and how much of an improvement it is over the current Dorchester armour?
By all accounts, Dorchester armour is still amongst the best in the world – even 25yrs later! If I was a Ukrainian tank commander, I’d feel a whole lot safer in a Challenger 2 than in a T-64 or T-72!
By all accounts it looks like the decision has been made to send the squadron’s worth of Challenger 2s. My parting comment today to our Ukrainian friends is – good hunting!!
Looking more likely and hopefully more to come from other countries to ward off any attempt from Belarus to join in the war.
Even the local beavers are taking an active role!
“German official says his country won’t block sending tanks to UkraineYesterday, Poland said it intended to send Leopard tanks to Ukraine in a move that shows a further step-up of support for the war-torn country.
But, crucially, Poland needs Berlin’s approval to send over the German-made battle tanks.
Germany’s vice chancellor has now said his country would not block the weapons transfer.
“Germany should not stand in the way of other countries taking decisions to support Ukraine, independent of which decisions Germany takes,” Robert Habeck said.
There has been no comment so far from German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
Germany itself has come under pressure from Ukrainian officials to send tanks to Ukraine and said today that nothing had been ruled out.”
“On your own land, everything will help you to defend it – the landscape, lots of rivers, which have burst their banks this year,” said Viktor Rokun, one of the brigade’s deputy commanders.
Meanwhile, the unit’s spokesman Serhiy Khominskyi said Ukraine had another helpful ally: the local beaver population.
“When they build their dams normally people destroy them, but they didn’t this year because of the war, so now there is water everywhere,” he said.
I hate those pesky Russians!
😅🤭😂🍹😅🤣👊
Germany’s defence minister has left her post so we will see what the outcome of that is.
All of this shows that making your own weapons is very important. Being dependant on other countries leaders permission to use weapons that were bought in good faith is an awful situation to be in.
I think with challenger 2 for Ukraine the numbers need to be 50+ to make it worth while to fight with. Also the recovery vehicles, bridging vehicles etc etc would need to be sent to allow actual use of challenger.
Then 100+ warriors/IFV, CVRT, bulldog, tracked artillery, stormer/starstreak etc etc are needed to actually form battalions of heavy armour. Some of that can be provided from Ukraine. The training is the most important to get right so they can be used properly.
Any numbers less than that are just a tool to encourage other countries to donate their heavy weapons.
“All of this shows that making your own weapons is very important. Being dependant on other countries leaders permission to use weapons that were bought in good faith is an awful situation to be in.”
I could not agree more Monkey Spanker.
Germany needs to take a long hard look at itself. You have NATO allies wanting to send tanks to Ukraine but Germany are blocking the move because they are German origin weapons.
Glad we never bought any German tanks if you have to ask their permission before using them.
If the UK needs any more tanks I’d recommend buying South Korean.
👍
I’d send precisely 88. Eg the number the army are being reduced down to with the switch from C2 to C3. With the caveat that if things go South the British army gets access to a few hundred Leopard 2s or M1A1s PDQ.
I’d agree if the KRH were able to switch to being an Ajax regiment but, as we are all too aware, the Ajax isn’t ready. So by sending 88 you’d strip one of our three tank regiments of their vehicles and have to find something else for them to do while waiting for Ajax.
I’m not exactly for the idea of re-rolling the KRH onto Ajax from Challenger in the first place let alone leaving them with nothing.
Instead of challenger 3 if the money is all still available the uk should use that money to develop a new tank in conjunction with industry. Like what South Korea does. They put some money forward and industry puts some money forward.
A new main battle tank mostly using already developed tech would be a great export potential.
Making the armour modular so weight can be increased/decreased as required.
So the armour can be Dorchester with any improvements added in.
Take the 120 or 130mm main gun. Perhaps an auto loader depending if it’s needed. Secondary weapons are standard.
Use a engine already developed. The running gear/tracks etc stick with what’s developed using tested improvements.
That leaves sensors and active protection. Again we know what works and use industry to develop better sensors where they can.
If this can be done and come in at the cheaper or same price as other MBT it will be a success.
Challenger 3 would of been great 15 years ago but we are looking at a small number being ready for 2030+ Challenger 2 can manage until a new tank is ready as is. The only upgrade to consider is a reasonable priced sensor upgrade for the commander.
I agree with that.
Might actually be worth looking at potential to do a development of the K2 Black Panther from Korea. As far as I understand it, the Poles as part of their agreement with the Koreans are going to be building them in Poland. Maybe we could do the same?
May also be able to get some sort of bonus on the deal if we were to end up going with the K9 Thunder to replace the AS90.
In terms of short term upgrade for the CH2’s I’d agree with the commander sensors but also a decent active protection system to improve survivability.
The Korean exports of defence products is flexible and I’m sure if desired a suitable plan could be agreed. Really the uk should be jumping at the chance before other countries take up the good deals and the choice is limited or long waiting lists.
The polish model is really ideal and a 3 way project would be a great proposition
Nope – this is a test of the relevance of tanks to modern warfare. With decent tactics and command and control.
If CH2 and Leopard succeed it makes the case for more CH3. So we don’t have 88 to send.
Given the engine issue with the Hawk T2 surely some of the recently retired Hawk T1s could be brought back into service to cover some of the training syllabus (given the intention was to keep them going until 2030 until recently)? The retired T1s from last year that don’t use the Adour 951 engine can’t have been sold or put beyond use already!? And if RR know the fix for the Adour 951 (I think that’s the engine) why wait for the Turbomeca fix to be ready and just supply the RAF with the amended LP compressor (I think that was the part of the Adour 951 with the problem) regardless? Scrapping the Hawk T1 was a tad premature – not least with Ukraine kicking off – and given the problem with the T2 engine requiring training work arounds being more expensive than not retiring the Hawk T1s in the first place (presumably). Also note Finland’s highly successful life extension and upgrade of the Hawk T1. Perhaps we can ask Finland to upgrade some Hawk T1s for the RAF as an interim?
I posted this in an earlier thread.
USA 2023 defence budget for those who might have an interest.
Off topic
According to the DAILY MAIL…
Trouble-hit Ajax tank is finally given all-clear to be pressed into service👀
Ahhh, this where I saw your Ajax comment… Lol 😁
If that’s the case the Army will be holding there breath 😶🙏
They will just sink in the mud. they are too heavy for the original design weight!
The design weight is 40t. According to variant they come in at 38t to 39.5t.
Hull, running gear and power pack are all rated to 42t.
ANY AFV will sink into soft ground/mud, even the much loved CVRT with it’s low ground pressure.
The Army and the senior bods at the MoD are reported to have agreed to seriously weaken the acceptance criteria for Ajax. Can you confirm that Ajax can now reverse up a 20cm gradient and that the tracks do stay on when they make a sharp turn? Can the gun now fire accurately on the move?
And I understand that the vibration problem remains so bad that the electronics still fall off their mountings or are damaged
You is a funny man David👍
Nobody is going to accept that.
You have heard of shock testing?
The kit inside military vehicles, ships and planes isn’t hung on picture hooks. It is either in a rack or bolted to bulkheads.
😆
Even so, if the vibration is bad enough the bolts shear
Here is a list of the worst problems with Ajax from the MoD’s Director of Health, Safety and Environmental Dec 2021 report:-
Track, suspension and running gear, in particular the tension and sprocket design/track interface.
The engine and its mounting into the vehicle.
Quality issues associated with, but not limited to, inconsistent routing of cabling, lack of bonding and weld quality; all of which can lead to potential electromagnetic compatibility issues with communication equipment.
As witnessed during trials, insecure components and bolting within the vehicle can also lead to noise and vibration, and again this was noted by Armoured Trials and Development Unit crews.
If that lot is fixable into a satisfactory and serviceable product I will be amazed
Be amazed
Bolting and vibration of internal units is/are fixable.
Engine mounts are fixable there are plenty of companies that design those for a day job.
Weld quality is the issues I’d be most worried about.
The sprocket tolerances – presumably – are also a worry. But again these can be fixed. This will depend on the engagement and disengagement profiles of the sprockets in the track. This isn’t rocket science and is actually quite relevant to EV’s where, given the massive torque, this has had to be rethought.
So you really have no concept of what you’re talking about in any way shape or form? But thanks for the input.
Ah fan boy, delete/insert your reply for your every post, thanks for the input.
I’ve got the solutions. 5L bottle of superglue in every vehicle. Start recruiting from the deaf community, that solves the noise issue.
Reversing problem is ok. Just go forwards.
David you don’t seriously expected Ajax to be able to do a fighty type role do you? Surely not. It’s a glorified X Box not an army armoured fighting vehicle.
There’s a lot of misunderstanding about the role Ajax was designed to fulfill, but it’s not an AFV, its a heavily digitised/data linked recce vehicle. Originally for light recce.
RGT trials begin in January 2023. On 21 December 2022, the Minister of State for the MoD Alex Chalk stated that these trials could last from 18 to 24 months. So yet another huge delay is baked in
There’s a 40mm cannon, L94 chain gun, serious armour, 805bhp V8 engine, advanced ISTAR capabilities that would argue you’re talking bollocks.
Ian I was jesting. Try not to take life so seriously. You’ll have a stroke or heart attack if you’re not careful.
I’ll keep taking the pills and have a beer👍
I think he may already have had one
Yes which is why even the Ukrainians comment that the next month or so when the ground hardens via freezing should allow for tracked fighting vehicles to better operate.
Doubt it… they’ll be covering their ears.
I was wondering whether it would be worth restricting the number of F35s over the years to come and implement a High-Low mix perhaps with F35 and eventually Tempest supported by Grippen/TF-X/KF-21? It could be a way of increasing the number of aircraft generally whilst maintaining funding approximately?
My argument being if TF-X is 70% of an F-35 say but 35% of the cost would it not be better to buy two or three TF-X than F-35 to provide greater operational flexibility and save operational hours (and operational costs) of the F35, especially for more routine tasks – like policing?
Nope.
Each type has a large establishment cost
Training
Technicians
Spares
Logistics
Support
OCU
Basing requirements
The list goes on and in….
Never works out that way. Spending a huge amount of money for less capability. And the RAF will go for capability/combat effectiveness over airframe numbers.
The number of airframes is tiny… And the effectiveness is in question. If one looks around and notice of what everyone else is doing. It’s a really big problem.
What is everyone else doing?
Sad sad troll, more British Army issues socks found in your laundry again I see. Its ok, the lads get issued quite a few.
In a world of loyal wing men and drones high low mixes don’t make sense. 6gen will see a handful of large manned, stealthy and survivable platforms controlling a wide range of low medium and high end drones.
I don’t know if anyone else has been notified. But i’ve just been informed of a thread I contributed to being approved after 16 days ! And another after 24 days !!
Snap.
Same here
Similar thing happened to me.
Great article