A photograph on Reddit shows a US Navy F/A-18E Super Hornet appearing to score a simulated gun kill on a British F-35B Lightning II operating from HMS Prince of Wales during training over the Pacific.
The picture, striking as it is, has circulated widely with speculation about what it might mean. In truth, nothing remarkable, it represents routine and structured training rather than a Top Trumps-style air-to-air victory.
The encounter took place as part of Dissimilar Air Combat Training, or DACT, a regular element of multinational exercises. The purpose of DACT is to give pilots from different aircraft types the chance to understand each other’s strengths, weaknesses and tactics. It is not a contest or a test of which fighter is superior.
Each aircraft involved has its own set of objectives, which may include learning to detect, evade, or engage specific threats under controlled conditions.
DACT dates back to the late stages of the Vietnam War, when the US introduced “aggressor” training to replicate the tactics of adversary aircraft. The idea proved so effective that it became a cornerstone of advanced pilot instruction. Today, it has evolved to reflect the realities of current combat, which increasingly involves stealth, networked sensors and electronic warfare rather than simple ‘dogfighting’.
For F-35B pilots, these sessions provide vital experience in avoiding detection and surviving engagements with agile fourth-generation fighters like the Super Hornet. For the US Navy pilots, the goal is to learn how to locate and engage stealth aircraft under realistic conditions. The Pacific location of the exercise adds another layer of relevance, with both navies preparing for potential scenarios in a region where China is expanding its own carrier and fifth-generation fighter capabilities.
The image itself captures a visually dramatic moment within a carefully managed exercise. A “gun kill” in this context refers to the simulated positioning of one aircraft behind another at close range, indicating that a shot could have been taken in combat. It does not imply defeat for the F-35 or superiority for the Super Hornet, or the opposite. Both aircraft have somewhat different use cases, after all.
Training like this produces data, refines tactics and ensures that both pilots and aircraft can perform at their best in complex, multinational operations.
Why was HMS Prince of Wales in the Pacific?
HMS Prince of Wales’s presence in the Pacific formed part of Operation Highmast, a major deployment intended to test the UK’s ability to project power and sustain a carrier strike group far from home.
The carrier led exercises with allies including the United States, Japan, and Australia, operating alongside advanced air and naval assets to strengthen interoperability and refine tactics for joint operations.
The deployment showcased Britain’s capacity to conduct high-tempo air operations at long range, building on lessons from Queen Elizabeth’s 2021 Indo-Pacific mission and reaffirming the UK’s commitment to regional security and freedom of navigation. Now, as Prince of Wales prepares to head home via the Suez Canal, the deployment enters its final phase.
Someone else noticed this, but I think it’s interesting that the F18 is doing 38 degree angle of attack at what looks like 184kts (if the HUD symbology is what I’m used to from flight simulators). That’s very, very low and slow, it’s not surprising the F35 came off worse.
Yes, in what world would and F18 ever get near enough to an F35 for a gun kill.
This is just like when the German typhoons killed an F22. Obviously a fourth generation fighter optimised for manuverability will have an advantage over a fifth gen one designed for stealth and fighting at range.
Just like a Gloucester gladiator could kill an ME109 if it ever got close enough.
Well anything can kill anything but in a close in dogfight I would still overwhelmingly prefer to be in a 109. Yes the Gladiator did shoot down some 109s not clear how many but it has to be stated that its overall kill ratio against all opposition was 1.2 to 1 which as many of its opponents were Italian biplanes and bombers doesn’t suggest it’s capability against 109s would have been anything like in its favour. Sadly records are too hazy to give an accurate comparison. But speed alone and relative firepower would have made it one sided in most engagements.
In the more modern comparison your argument holds far more water however, the F-35 is a terrible dog fighter compared to the 4/4.5 Gen fighters or for that matter an F-22 so indeed its strength is over the horizon engagements where it’s rarely if ever even seen… well for now with present sensor/radar technology in a decade perhaps maybe somewhat different, Tempest’s sensors are designed to detect stealth as we know it today and the Chinese and no doubt the US are working on similar technology. Of course stealth itself will evolve and a non stealthy aircraft will always be at a disadvantage in detection. The only other point I guess is that as intense conflict builds up things never quite become as predictable or reliable as when they start and errors will let the unexpected Ted happen like a 109 ever allowing a Gladiator to get into a position to engage and down it. I’m sure they learned quickly which is why a certain Canadian aircraft designer who claimed that WW2 might start with monoplanes but it will surely end with biplanes, was proved so very wrong. Don’t think he anticipated the jet age mind which is perhaps the real lesson on predicting future events, ie not only a wrong move but an entirely wrong playing board.
The F35 is not a terrible dogfighter. That is just utter nonsense.
Didn’t some Avro Ansons shoot down Me109s early in the war because the German pilots never realised that they needed to treat it essentially as a static target and kept overshooting?
Pilot skill and training is nearly always the deciding factor, rather than marginal technical superiority.
Yeah the F-35Bs weren’t able to fight the way they would actually so is this really that much of a surprise
The F35 is NOT designed as a within visual range fighter. It is a long range sniper. The F18 would be detected a long way out in reality and shot before it could detect the F35. This is really a non story…
If it had any long range missiles to do so, only AMRAAMs presently fit that bill. The F-18 by the way has the smallest detectable frontal radar detection size of any 4th Gen fighter from what I have read.
not if the F18 has a Growler as a wingman 😉
F35 “stealth” is only optimised for X-band from the front, not so much from other angles. Furthermore. there are pkenty of ways to detect “stealth” like low band radars, photonic, optics, infrared, multi-static, passive like picking up signals from cell towers, TVs, radios etc… add sensor fusion/AI and suddenly the world just got a lot more dangerous.
The F35 is all aspect stealth like the F22 and F117 before them. Some radar bands could pick up traces of a F35 in the area. But tracking, and engaging and getting a firing solution is another thing altogether.
While these types of canned, highly rule-restricted exercises probably provide valuable training insights for the pilots, the public should be very wary of drawing any conclusions from them at all. In any likely real scenario, any F-35 variant would have a 4th gen fighter dead to rights before the 4th gen pilot knew he was in any danger at all. Even in an unlikely close-range engagement, both the F-35 and F/A-18E/Fs have helmet cued, incredibly agile missiles that would make any type of gunplay very counterproductive.
Until you run out of missiles and have to use whatever you have to survive…
Well since we don’t have gun pods for our F-35Bs when we run out of missiles way out beyond the range he can see us with radar we return to the carrier and rearm. We don’t run into a knife fight empty handed with a 4 1/2th gen aircraft.
Assuming the F-18 isn’t part of a force targeting the carriers anyway.
Wondering why they’re not considering gun pods on the F35Bs? They’ll be internal on the F35As but must be the same ammo? Be interesting to know if other F35B operators have gone with the gun pods. Better than fighting with nothing and might be good at shooting down drones.
USMC has the gun pods.
Like most things with the F-35 program, the RN/MOD hasn’t bought it.
Then you depart, if no BVR kill.
And then you simply run away and the f35 has both Mach speed cruise and Mach speed manovering.. essentially an f18 could never force this type of low speed fight in real life… no f35 pilot would allow it to happen.. and guns are essentially useless in any high energy high speed fight which a f35 could maintain… it’s worth noting that there has only ever been one single record high speed gun kill ( Mach speed). and because of that you can say that was statistically an artifact ( essentially blind luck).
Remember that F18 would have 5.8 seconds of cannon fire as well…
The last time a U.S. fixed wing aircraft used its cannon in anger against an Air target was 36 years ago and that was an A10 attacking a helicopter.
Yes true to say the F-18s narrow speed advantage would unlikely allow it to close on an F-35 unless the pilot of the latter was very negligent or unlucky, its own super cruise capability isn’t exactly stellar mind. However if the F-18 were close enough a short range missile would have some chance of locking onto the F-35, but the open source information is rather nebulous however on such matters.
Given we’re comparing a lightly loaded F35 to a fully equipped Hornet, I’m not sure the F18 would actually have any speed advantage whatsoever. Apparently it struggles to go supersonic with SM-6 on board and isn’t much better with a full AMRAAM load.
not if the F18 has a Growler as a wingman 😉
F35 “stealth” is only optimised for X-band from the front, not so much from other angles. Furthermore. there are plenty of ways to detect “stealth” like low band radars, photonic, optics, infrared, multi-static, passive like picking up signals from cell towers, TVs, radios etc… add sensor fusion/AI and suddenly the world just got a lot more dangerous
Interesting article, there’s been much speculation that the day of the dogfight is gone. I wonder what occurs when two adversary stealth jets come up against each other – will this become a VR gun fight?
Somewhat off topic but relevant – Royal Navy pilot Dick Lord was one of the founder instructors “seconded” to Top Gun at it’s establishment. He later returned to RSA (a dual national) to serve in the SAAF. He retired a Brig General and then wrote several books. A great boss and first class human being , he passed away a few years ago.
Even stealth fighters can and will be detected by each other at 20 miles range or Radar and IRST. Weapons like ASRAAM using IR guidance will likely be very important in such a scenario and it’s a major disadvantage of the F22 until recently.
A gun kill will never happen in the real world. Pilots will break off instead of risking it. They might be lucky enough to score a kill but they would leave their own aircraft in an incredibly vulnerable spot to try and get a gun kill.
Ammunition for the haters
And a non story.
Ha ha.
Getting up late this morning and reading all the comments is like everyone is now a Fighter Ace all of a sudden !!!
Both 7G high Alpha fighters. Tough gig. In a real shooting war, the F35 would have an AMRAAM in the air from 30 miles away before the bad guy even new he was being engaged. While also sharing the location of the other bad guys to every allied fast jet, warship and ground based commander on the network. Situational awareness is king.
If only the F35 could VIFF.
A big problem if you don’t have a giant airborne early warning aircraft… Low observability aircraft can be seen… The UK does not have that ability. Well actually very few people have that ability
Whatever 🤷🏻♂️
Morning to all you Aces !
In the West’s headlong rush to Tech superiority, these sort of reality checks are a worth while exercise.
“Dag daga daga, you can teach monkeys” !
OK, as a Haircraft Hengineer, I can see the flaws in the F35’s design, It really needs a Rear Gunner.
Mabe a couple of Lewis guns in a Ball Turret ?
How about a 20mm firing through the nose spinner ?
“Yee haaa, Jester’s dead”
“I like that in a Pilot”.