The Army say it is “transforming and modernising to meet the threat of modern warfare” and they have certainly made some ‘steps’ in that direction.
“Innovation and adaptation are at the heart of that transformation, but not all change involves new kit and equipment”, say the British Army in a news release.
“Last year, personnel from the Armoured Trials and Development Unit (ATDU) at Bovington in Dorset travelled to visit the soldiers of the King’s Royal Hussars (KRH) deployed in Estonia. The Regiment’s tour, supporting the NATO mission in the Baltic states, was a constant round of exercises, demonstrations, and range practice designed to deter Russian aggression.
When asked what would make life more bearable, the soldiers of the KRH asked for a quicker and less tiring way of mounting the enormous Challenger 2. The inventive folk at Bovington designed a set of removable steps, made on a 3D printer, which could be built anywhere and attached temporarily in peacetime.
This made the job of mounting the 72-tonne monster child’s play, saving time and money at almost no cost. Necessity is after all, the mother of invention.”
Wow, 3D printers. We just used spare wooden pallets , which are in most supply chains and make a good fire. Invention , a trip to Estonia for for that. Come on.
Hi folks hope all are well,
So after all the time we have spent on deciding the future of Challenger 2, with this addition does this mean the life of the tank is going to be considered?
A ladder at the side of the tank does not give any confidence as to the future of the MBT for the British army, which is such a shame considering the tank as a whole, which is regarded to still be one of the best in the world.
I’m also wondering what numbers we will have in the future. Do any of you experts know? It would be great to have a Challenger 3 don’t you think. Although this is not going to happen realistically.
Cheers,
George
I’m confident the British Army will retain Challenger, George.
Def Sec has confirmed as much already.
Numbers I do not know, likely less than now.
And to emphasise again under current plans we are going down to 2 Regiments rather than the current 3, plus the reserve regiment. ( RWY ) Currently they are type 56 regiments, in that they have 56 tanks each!
So with some extras in reserve at Ashchurch or Monchengladbach, in the AC at Bovington, some at BATUS, and trials, you could say with confidence less than 200, maybe 150?
Who knows. Less than now!
Dan
They could save money on this by issuing a plank from one tank to another so they wouldn’t need so many steps made
Give the job to the Paras.
With three regiments plus spares, I think 200 max. Which on one hand makes you wonder if it’s worth it, on the other it would still be one of the largest and/or most modern armoured forces in Europe.
I still think it is worth it. Armour is valued. I only need to listen to the army blokes on here who value its psychological and firepower effect.
On the 3rd Regiment, the reserve RWY ( Royal Wessex Yeomanry ) I’m not certain but believe they do not actually field any Tanks of their own, just use them on exercise. They did have the role of augmenting the regulars with crews rather than forming complete troops.
Also, it was mentioned some time back by an army officer that our Brigades would become “square” which means 2 armoured and 2 infantry formations rather than the 1 and 2 now. If we are reducing to 1 Armoured Infantry Brigade ( along with the 2 “Strike” ) as rumours suggest then do we even need more than 200 considering they are T56 regiments?
I’m content with a modest number like this as long as it is properly updated and the army then puts more assets into doing strike properly. That means ISTAR, air defence, artillery, long range fires and putting more than a RWS on a Boxer!
Apologies for the late reply, RL caught up. So that would be two Chally regt and two Warrior battalions? I guess if it’s like an armoured fist, with the Challengers, Warriors and AS90 brigaded together that’s a fairly potent force. Probably would prefer three or four strike brigades, it does make me question why it seems we can’t make our own 8×8. Between a basic APC, an autocannon armed IFV, a 120mm gun carrier, a SHORAD/ATGM carrier, an arty module, something like the Supacat LIMAW (think that’s right) GMLRS, EW, ambulance, C3, engineer and recovery etc etc etc there’s surely well over a thousand plus vehicles required. Even if there’s a split between heavy 8×8 and lighter recce/C&L and the like on 4×4 or 6×6. Other nations manage, France has introduced three different types. What’s our issue?
Hi Ryan.
I agree. What’s our issue. No idea where to start! It is endemic it seems, especially in the army.
Yes. 2 Challenger 2 Warrior. It is potent but bear in mind that currently ( unsure if changes already afoot ) the 3 Armoured Infantry each have 1 Tank, 1 Armd Recc, 2 Warrior, 1 HPM ( heavy protected mobility ) That is 5 units from infantry and RAC. In future, as things stand after SDSR2015, they will have just 3, the 1 Tank, and 2 Warrior. Much weaker brigades.
So it is already a potent force and would have remained so but for Strike taking the recc units away ( the 3 Armoured Recc regiments on Scimitar plus a Tank Reg converting to Ajax to make the 4 Regs assigned to the Strike Bdes.
The square bdes comment is still only a rumour on Twitter, after said quote from a MG, forget who it was.
Up to 2015 after SDSR2010 we had the 3 Armoured Infantry Brigades and money to upgrade Ch2, Warrior, and buy Ajax. Then they decided what they really wanted was Boxer and wheels. The Strike brigades became a cover for a sly cut. I can detail after if you wish.
I expect us to have 3 deployable brigades after this review, 1 Armoured and 2 Strike. Plus what is left of 16AA and 3 Cdo.
Up to SDSR2015 plans we actually had 5 deployable brigades, plus the paras and commandos of 16AA and 3 Cdo. The 3 AI Brigades plus 2 Brigades from 1 Div that had the CS&CSS elements to make them deployable. These were reduced after Strike was born in the 2015 cuts, with 1 of these Brigades becoming a Strike Bde and 1 Armoured bde set to lose Tanks and Warrior and become the other Strike Brigade.
The end result means that 15 Armoured and Infantry formations within the 3 Armoured Infantry Brigades become 14 with 4 brigades, 1 more, – 2 Armoured – 2 Strike. Plus the other CSS regiments cut in 2015. And all the headlines were on Strike when actually cuts were taking place.
I hope I am wrong and 2 Armoured and 2 Strike remain, but MoD / HMG have been masters of slight of hand and stealth cuts for years and when an improvement is being shouted about usually things are vanishing elsewhere!
Sorry for long post.
So the question is: just how are they fucking it up? And where the hell is all the manpower if all we have are a single armoured brigade and a couple lash up formations if I understand you? Surely it can’t be all in LI and rear echelon? There’s about 75k troops for crying out loud, how are we incapable of putting together a coherent force?
To demonstrate my point, here’s a theoretical Army I whipped up:
Two armoured and four Strike brigades, the armoured brigades consisting of two battlegroups each of a tank regt, two AI, a recce company and an artillery regt each and the mechanised brigades again two battlegroups of a recce company, two mechanised infantry and artillery each. That gave four tank regiments, twenty four mounted battalions split 30/60 between armoured and mechanised, twelve artillery regiments and twelve recce companies split 30/60 between tracked and wheeled. Add in a dozen loose infantry battalions for garrison, peacekeeping and other such obviously, and even with brigades of six thousand (which I personally think is a bit on the big side) and a support corps consisting of the RE, REME, RLC, RAMC, MP and all that of 25k I’m barely getting to 70k personnel. I’ll admit it’s nowhere near watertight, I’ve probably missed all sorts and this would be more expensive (though I would say offset by better and more timely procurement and the support to industry) but that’s a smaller yet more capable Army than any in Europe I dare say. Even a single square armoured brigade and three square wheeled strike brigades should be manageable to say the least for us.
Maybe I’m being overly pessimistic but are we just shit at having a capable Army or is this deliberate? How do other nations do it? Sorry for the essay, feel free to rip it to shreds.
Morning Ryan. I will try to answer best I can below.
“if all we have are a single armoured brigade and a couple lash up formations if I understand you?”
We have 3 AI Bdes currently. The plan was move to 2/2 by promoting one of the infantry Bdes in 1 Div to Strike and changing 1 Armd Inf Bde to Strike. That is up in the air now until IDSR.
“Surely it can’t be all in LI and rear echelon?”
Yes, lots! Plus many thousands unfit to deploy, those in rear roles like the training organisation, in UKSF, with MoD organisations, with the RM Bde, and so on. Detailed below.
We also had a formation called Theatre Troops. Then changed to Force Troops, and recently another name change and its been split all over the shop into a 6th Division and bits and pieces elsewhere in 3 Div and 1 Div…..anyway, this Force Troops command had all the enablers from the CS&CSS arms, RE, RA, sigs, and so on.
To be more accurate – 2 Signals Brigades, 2 Logistic Brigades, 1 Force Logistic Brigade, 1 Artillery Brigade, 1 Air Defence Group, 1 Intelligence and Recon Brigade, 1 Medical Brigade, 1 Engineer Brigade, 1 RMP Brigade. I might even have missed a brigade out as I’m typing this. Oh yes, the Specialist Infantry Group!!
This force can be seen as a sort of “Corps Troops” formation, with the supporting assets that deploy with our deployable brigades, especially from the RA with the AS90 and LG regiments, RLC & REME with Close Support Logistic Regiments and CS REME Battalions, and RE with the Close Support Engineer Regiments and so on. Those that do not directly support a brigade still deploy, for example 30 Signals Regiment, the strategic comms specialists for any deployment, and the RE Bomb Disposal regiments. So my wider point is there are other deployable formations NOT in a deployable brigade, but in a wider support role.
You also mentioned LI. Yes, most of those are in 1 Division.
Example – of 33 Infantry Battalions, just 9 are currently in deployable AI Brigades, 3 in 16AA, and 1 supports SF as UKSFSG. ( 1 Para ) Of the remaining bulk: 2 are in Cyprus, 1 in Brunei, 2 or 3 as public duties in Winsdor, Greenwich, Hounslow, or Wellington Barracks, 5 in the Specialist group ( reduced in size ) and the rest in non deployable brigades in the regions. Some of those form 1 Divs “deployable Light Brigade” for ops oversees, but have little CS or CSS apparent.
The wider ORBAT and structure of the army has been a bit of a muddle for a long time, and badly damaged by 2010 SDSR. You also have to consider a phenomenon called the “Cap Badge Mafia” where top brass, aided by politicians desperate to avoid bad publicity by disbanding a famous named battalion, cull the support arms instead. This resulted in so many cuts to the key enablers that there look to be too many infantry battalions for the available supporting formations to mould them into an effective brigade. The LI Battalions of course have other uses and are valued, not saying otherwise.
It is what it is, and I’m by no means expert on the reasons. Army blokes could comment much better than me. Just my observations.
Need to have a word with Stuart Crawford, he doesn’t seem to consider it to be one of the best in the world.
There we go. No doubt that’s the life extension upgrade sorted.
The CH2LEP certainly has been keeping the midnight oil burning for the ‘hush hush’ boys, now behold, it’s here a bloody step for arthritic knees!
I’ve seen a lot of Mickey Mouse b8ll8cks in 24 years in this mans Army, this takes the proverbial biskwit!
If something as simple as a ladder to help get on the thing is so useful, why on earth wasnt it sorted a long time ago? Yes they did it the posh way with a 3d printer, but it only had to be a GCSE metalwork project didnt it?
‘they have certainly made some ‘steps’ in that direction’ 🙂 🙂 🙂
Heath & Robinson spring to mind. I could have knocked that up in my garage. I do hope that isn’t the complete Challenger 2 upgrade programme.
I do hope the British Army are not taking themselves seriously with this. And it’s a little way off April 1st. I do suspect however someone somewhere is (I hope) trolling the MoD.
And the next stage is to fit the new British army Iron fist active defensive systems for the chally, codenamed “Pirelli” consisting of secret rubber, conical items, covertly coloured black, sniper taped to the side of the tank! ? The contract with Capita to test the concept, trials and training will start after an exhausting testing regime, costing 800 million, with an in service timeframe of 2025.
Perhaps some temporay bunk beds and some chintz curtains to hang off the side.
I’m disgusted at the above, where is the wheelchair access is the army going to offer separate toilet facilities for trans people and will they be offering a space inside the tanks in which to allow people to be able to pray.
I’m struggling not to laugh TBH.
One of my guys could have made that in under an hour and more neatly.
You have RN coming out with a series of drumbeat announcements about sensible weapons systems that everyone knows are needed. RAF similarly talking about weapons and planes (P8, F35B, WedgeTail) that are needed and wanted. And this?
I mean really? Seriously? If the army comms office think this is good enough then god help them and god help the Chally LEP program – I know this is not part of it but turning the whole thing into a joke does not help.
Ah troll Harold, well done in the MCM posts, confirmation if ever we needed any of a genuine multi avatar troll. Sad.
All the comments from people saying what a joke this is, clearly haven’t spent time around armour and experienced for themselves how damaging jumping off a vehicle a few dozen times a day can be. Most of the injuries from an armoured battlegroup on exercise are from people jumping down from armour.
But yeah, let’s laugh at the Army trying to reduce injuries to its people because it’s a ladder and we can make a cheap shot.
Would not putting foot holes in the skirt plates as per other armoured vehicles work better and not get ripped off when going through trees ?
Hi, would it not be possible and maybe cheaper to go with either the latest leopard tank or the Abrams ? Maybe a modified Abrams with a diesel power pack as tested for the Turkish army .
12 years on chieftain and never needed one what are today’s tankies made of.
The current generation were driven to school in cars and played computer games instead of football etc outside, their bodies were not conditioned to exercise as much. Think the decline started with those thick plastic scissors which stopped children cutting themselves, this reduced awareness to risk and danger!
Front tow hooks, 2 kicks to wake up whoever was asleep in the drivers seat, then up you go….easy.
I know someone who repairs these tanks aged 59, he seems to have no trouble climbing over the turret, think perhaps they need more P.T. Also possible to climb up extended range fuel drum bracket if reasonably fit (not approved). Bigger problem is the lack of anti slip grit used when overpainted which is a problem when they are wet or diesel spilt when refuelled /overfilled
Wow no wonder this upgrade is a “step change” that attracts admiration from all quarters. Another British inovation toe prolong the life of the Challenger
Have we not lost our perspective here? If this is the best thing we can find to comment on or invest energy in producing a press release for then something is truly wrong.