It has been reported that Babcock’s Arrowhead 140 design will be picked for the Type 31e Frigate competition.
Alan Tovey reported here that the government is to announce the winner in a major announcement at next month’s Defence & Security Equipment International show in London.
This news, if accurate, means that Scottish shipyards will be working on 18 vessels in total. Including the five Offshore Patrol Vessels launched on the Clyde since 2014 and the 8 Type 26 Frigates to be built at Govan.
Rosyth is hoping to assemble Type 31e Frigates if Babcock and their industry consortium win the work.
The MoD is set to award a contract for the Type 31e frigate, with Babcock, BAE Systems and Atlas Elektronik among the main contenders.
Babcock say that their Arrowhead design lends itself equally to either a single build strategy, or a cross–site build strategy bringing together modules – an approach used for aircraft carrier assembly at Rosyth.
The company had previously warned that jobs could be lost if Rosyth doesn’t get the work.
“The company are extremely optimistic they can work with the recognised trade unions (Unite, Prospect & GMB) when they secure the T31e project to minimise the risk of potential future compulsory redundancies. To achieve this, in the meantime, the company shall look to release volunteers for redundancy under the current phase announced in February 2019.
However, whilst securing the T31e project will give the yard a future longer term there is still the matter of current surplus labour. It is for this reason the company and the recognised trade unions shall look to enter into a temporary mobility agreement to secure the skillsets required for the future.In the unfortunate event the company is unsuccessful in securing the T31e project it is likely we would be faced with the potential of 450 trade union members being made compulsory redundant, impacting all skill sets and all trade union collectives.”
More on this as it develops.
Excellent news.. I would like to see more detail on the design, as believe the RN would be better served by an absalon type 2 that makes use of the additional flex deck and rear ramp facilities. This would have the 4 engines of the Arrowhead, same weapons fit, but more space and therefore flexibility. Given we have gone for a large ship, we should look at its flexibility. I am often told air is free with ships as the cost of steel is a relatively small cost and as this is not intended as a high end combat ship… Read more »
I’ve felt like the Absalon class is the perfect ship for Type 31 for awhile now. The ability to move man and materials around make it ideal for everything from humanitarian assistance to basing a small contingent of Royal Marines
I have too, but am thankful we have gone for the Arrowhead out of the 3 Now to push for a little more common sense and add that flex deck and stern configuration the absalon is so famous for. Realistically, I know it wont happen and that is unfortunate, but the benefits of an absalon are a force multiplier. 1. It can house and land a company of marines via its numerous boats and 2 Merlin helicopters. It can house 2 Merlins in its hanger. It can house a 40 bed hospital or 10 bed intensive care unit It can… Read more »
So its finally coming to the end, maybe we might get some ships built, but one potential problem that I see if Scotland is going to be building all types of ship what happens if they move for independence, I hope this will never happen because its the United four together that makes us better, but what then?
Well, it is initiatives like this that will give ammunition to those that want to remain in the Union. Can only be a positive move for retaining unity!
Giving every single Royal Navy ship, bar none, to Scotland won’t be seen as a positive in England. At all. We are the ones paying, by far, the most money towards the Royal Navy, only for us to build precisely zero ships? This isn’t fair, this isn’t fair at all.
Unfortunately the English get a bum deal, every time.
Oh, I dunno. I think the Scots might beat the English when it comes to victim complex. Very close to call ?
constant awarding of contracts to the lowest yards in europe baffles me 4 years to build an opv? scandalous.pompey built dreadnought in under 12 months, that was with old style methods, the clyde, if they get any t 31 contracts must be told that TWO SHIPS PER YEAR is the minimum requirement
Yeah I agree, only if appledore could get some work…. but Atleast England has 8 submarines on the order list and 4 huge ones at that.
As Albert Steptoe might have said, “We have the nuclear bombs on our side”
Appledore closed last year.
As did Swan Hunters recently, Portsmouth, Appledore, etc., etc., etc. and nothing was done to keep them going. Whereas when a Scottish shipyard is in danger of losing jobs or closing they move Heaven and Earth to stop it, to the point of giving every single last Royal Navy ship, literally bar none, to Scotland, whilst all the English shipyards get nothing, whilst we English pay about 90% of the cost of it. They needn’t think we are going along with this. If the Type 31 goes to Scotland then the 3 solid support ships are being built in England… Read more »
Ok first who is “They” and second if you have the authority to make those decisions why not award the Type 31 contract to a yard in England in the first place? I suppose it never crossed your mind that Babcock could win the contract on merit.
AND AT THE LAUGHABLE RATE OF PRODUCTION, THE M.O.D is again to be seen as utterly incompetent.
I know, but it could reopen if the work was there.
8 submarines vs dozens upon dozens of ships? England has been totally screwed over. Are you telling me out of dozens upon dozens of ships not even 1 can be built in England?
Sure if you transfer some of the fighter build to Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland, or how about the sub refits which should have been done in Scotland but were moved to England to win Tory votes, or maybe the combat vehicles (BAE) which are all based in England, or submarine build as others have pointed out. The pity party for England gets boring (said as someone who grew up in the North of England) . Yes Scotland has been home to the majority of the UKs recent surface ship builds, but England dominates other areas.
Sure if Scotland transfers some of the space work (Skyrora, Orbex) to England/Wales/N.I., or how about some of the aluminium production. Or R.N./R.F.A. ships as others have pointed out.
Giving all R.N. ships, bar none, to Scotland, when England pays around 90% of the cost is not fair. If all R.N. ships, bar none, are to be built in Scotland then all R.F.A. ships, bar none, can’t also be on top of that. At least some of these R.F.A. ships can be built in England. Surely any reasonable person can see what I am saying.
Unfortunately UK ship building isn’t reasonable! And just because one yard gets one thing doesn’t mean another gets a different thing, it does t work like that. And Scotland lost all its RAF bases bar one, England’s home to almost every other RAF base so Scotland loses there, we could go on all day like that and it’s pointless. Both country’s work together great and we should keep doing so as one country Great Britain We both have our own strengths and weaknesses that’s why we are stronger together. England lost all of its aluminium smelters because they were mostly… Read more »
Carefully Cam, you’ve made a well reasoned sensible argument, dangerous 😉 Completely agree with you. Stephen is also unaware or ignoring the fact that virtually all the design work for Babcock’s type 31 has been out of Bristol. A huge amount of the supply network will be based in England so England isn’t going to be suffering. It’s also worth noting for Stephen and others who seem to think submarines are insignificant…the Dreadnought programme alone costs more than QEC, 26, 31 & 45, and River II combined…happily do that swap 😉 Though of course businesses based in Scotland are doing… Read more »
Listen, there are more than enough ships in the R.N. and R.F.A. so that some can be built in England (who pay 90% of the cost). I don’t see how any reasonable person can possibly argue against this. England too has a long, proud history of shipbuilding. Famous English shipyard after famous English shipyard after famous English shipyard has closed down, thousands upon thousands of English people have lost their jobs, and we have said nothing. We are not saying nothing any longer. English shipyards too should benefit from the R.N./R.F.A. If the centre for warships is to be Scotland… Read more »
stupidest post i’ve ever seen, the navy has more than enough ships are you from mars or some other parallel universe?
Can’t see one comment in this thread saying that. Can you please point out who said it.
The submarines are all being relocated to the Clyde.
Basing. Not build or major refit.
totally agreed.
SHOULD have been done in scotland? do they use different spanners than anywhere else? scotland gets enough, the contracts are awarded as a sap to the S.N.P and the shipbuilding unions
Yes Andy should.
Should have been done in Scotland in that the government had already decided to and built the big hole in the ground you can see at Rosyth, before deciding to relocate to South of England to win votes despite have spent a small fortune.
Aside from that, Rosyth a smaller population centre who live further from what would have been the nuclear dock, compared to Devonport. Generally reducing number of public close to nuclear activities is a good idea.
England builds all our warplanes and helicopters and far more Millitary equipment and hardware but it shouldn’t be tit for tat!. It’s not Scotland’s fault it’s BAE, they closed their English yard then Babcock closed appledore both shouldn’t have closed. I wish England would get more warship work but the government has screwed our ship building, and ships should be block built if possible giving more yards around the UK work and RFA vessels block built also, we will need lots of new big RFA RN ships in the near future so let’s hope we have yards in England left… Read more »
Shame about the Belfast yard eh?
England pays 90% of the bill, obviously we should get the most Cam.
The UK pays 100% of the bill.
Jesus wept, change the record. Your argument is childish at best and downright stupid at worst. First we don’t know if the Type 31 will be built in Scotland so far it is only a rumour. Second the contract will be awarded to the consortium based on price and perceived ability to deliver not geographic location. I see several other people have pointed out to you how ridiculous your position is. I also see the location of our submarine fleet seems to bother you as well but I’m sure you are fine with all 13 frigates, 6 destroyers, 2 carriers,… Read more »
You are a fool. How about Scotland gives you Trident? You can have your nukes on your front door step.
Building ships in blocks hundreds of miles apart, with the associated transport costs, will never make British shipbuilding efficient or competitive. No competitive shipbuilding country does it this way (France, Germany, Korea, China, etc.). That is not by accident. We cannot do it this way either in Britain.
We have to have shipyards specializing in certain types of ship, building them on 1 site.
If all warship building is to be done in Scotland (fair enough), then the centre for R.F.A. ships should be an English yard, with Cammell Lairds being the most obvious choice.
and given a time to build competition, the scottish shipbuilders will be seen for what they are lazy incompetent and arrogant in the expectation that contracts will be given to them. when i left the navy i took a job in a local factory, which had a heavy fabrication area where all kinds of heavy metal building took place. now, if contracts for certain sections were given to companies to produce as per the modular building thesis areas of ships. i think many of these companies some desperate for work, would bite the hand off the M.O.D for a piece… Read more »
Ship building is a national effort. Subs assembled in England. QEC and 26s currently in Scotland (maybe 31s).
Supply chain to these assemblies? Across the whole UK in exactly the manner you’re describing…
Stephen, I presume the intention to build in Scotland is because that’s where the expertise is based. Scotland don’t build submarines because the expertise required to build submarines is based in Barrow. However, once the ships have been built they will be based and maintained south of the border for a much longer period than that of the build.
Good news; decent sized ship. Any info regarding Thales CMS and radar versus BAE and Artisan?
Interesting news for sure. What kind of equipment sets it will carry is of big concern. – Artisan 3D radar or other? – How many CAMM will be carried (0 to 24)? – 57mm or 76mm gun? No sonar, nor torpedo, nor torpedo defense system, as was in RFI? Also, industry wise – how can H&W survive for ~ 1 year until the actual work starts (who pays for it?) – how can Cammell Laird survive in future? – after the 5 T31e are built (say, ~9 years of work), what is the plan for H&W, FM, and Babcock Rothys’s… Read more »
To be honest at this point I dont care if it has nothing on it, we need to start building hulls and more than 5 as well. If we get this right we should be building a T26 every 2 years and 1 of these as well, ensuring we have at least one new surface combat vessel launching annually and indefinitely. For me the next big decision is the radar, if we upgrade the T26 radar to Sampson or its successor that gives us a full spectrum destroyer that can then replace T23 ASW/T45, this would be the sensible long… Read more »
Pacman27, I was reading I think in the Telehraph today that it is for a £2 billion six ship order. I hope the media have it right.
First time for everything…
That is great news if true Ron.
There’s a mighty ships programme on this class (peter Willmoes) and the Absalon. They are amazing ships for the cost and ones I have been pushing for several years on forums.
Now for the RN to use it BMT Aegir platform and renew the RFA and Amphibious hulls with a single Karel Doorman style ship.
8 of those and 2 more tides will move us into a different class altogether and even save money.. what’s not to like about it…
H&W had plenty of work on until their parent company went bust. Then for obvious reasons their customers scarpered. When the yard is rescued I expect work to resume on wind turbine frames or whatever it was they where making. The final weapons fit on arrowhead will be interesting as I don’t think it will be straight forward for the RN to reuse artison with a thales cms. I’m expecting the 4.5 mod 1’s to be recycled though.
they really should standardise the cms across the fleet – i know they want to break bae’s monoploy but i dont think the cms alone would make much difference – then with basically no training people could be swapped from any ship in the fleet
I see the advantage of having a single cms. But if BAE are taking the piss with the cost and Thales is supplying the rest of Europe with theirs it make you wonder why.
Great break down here:
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/in-focus-the-arrowhead-140-type-31e-frigate-candidate/
Would have liked to have seen Cammell Laird get a ‘cut of the action’, but having said that: I’ve always considered the (Huitfeldt) Arrowhead 140 design a far better option.
I think CL is perfect for the solid support order or at least blocks of it. That would address some of the balance around this, perhaps rosyth becomes the yard that pulls the blocks together and HW and CL do the blocks.. It is critical we keep CL going as it is an English yard with good facilities. Realistically, we need 8 large vessels going forward – all should be based on the Aegir (Tide) hull form and in my opinion should form a single class of ship based upon the Karel Doorman Joint logistic support ship. With 3 bays,… Read more »
Are you suggesting that CL builds blocks for both the FSS and T31, and then Rosyth assembles them? There are several big issues with that. First, the additional cost. Block building is more expensive, it makes more sense to have single yards specialising in different types of ship. Second, the capacity at Rosyth. I’m not 100% certain, but I’m fairly sure Rosyth doesn’t have the space to build T31, FSS, and dry dock the QECs. That’s a lot of eggs in one basket. One of those would have to be relocated, and T31 is the best one to move elsewhere.… Read more »
It is not my preference Callum, but the NSS preferred method is block building, As it seems likely Scotland is to get T31 I would move all large platforms to CL (common sense would say it should be the other way round, but there you go). My preference is therefore that CL get T31 and Rosyth get the work to replace the 12 large amphib/support ships that will need replacing over the next 25 years, but that does not seem to be what will happen. Once again we are fitting round pegs in square holes. We need a complex warship… Read more »
It would have made a million times more sense to build the Type 31 (a relatively small ship) at Cammell Lairds on 1 site, and the solid support ships (which are large) in blocks around the country and assembled at Rosyth with its massive dry dock and gantry crane. But if they insist on doing it the insane way then the solid support ships are being built in Cammell Lairds. Scotland is not getting R.F.A. ships on top of every single R.N. ship whilst England gets zero. Cammell Lairds has to be the site where we build our R.F.A. ships… Read more »
Well for the first part your right, building the FSS at Rosyth and making use of the crane while giving Type 31 contract to CL (single site) would be ideal but that’s not how it works. We are not Russia. Yards will tender and then win or loose the work, we don’t dish out contracts on the basis of what makes you happy or what you feel is a fair geographic spread.
OK, the best of these three and in that context a logical choice. Shame for the UK shipyard strategy that it appears to come just too late for SW England and Northern Ireland. But do I detect an indication that Scotland seems still to be less than content?
That said, I am pleased for Ferguson Marine; its attempt to grab the future deserves success. In fact, still dumfounded over how the CalMac issues were ever allowed to become so disastrously significant. Agree, Solid Support Ships to include Cammell Laird. Would ‘hope’ this was what Babcock were angling towards in the Arrowhead annoucement.
The solid support ships better damn well more than just “include” Cammell Lairds, they have to be built there. If you think we English are paying 90% of the cost of the R.N./R.F.A. to only build the occasional block to be assembled in Scotland once in a blue moon you need to think again. If all R.N. ships, bar none, are going to be built in Scotland, then all R.F.A. ships, bar none, will be built in England (NOT a few blocks to be assembled in Scotland ON TOP OF every single Royal Navy ship already being built in Scotland).… Read more »
Plenty of English shipyards have lost jobs, the World doesn’t revolve around Scottish shipyards. So Scotland assembled the 2 aircraft carriers, built the 8 River class O.P.V.s, built the 6 Type 45s, is building the 8 Type 26, is going to build the 5+ Type 31s, whilst the English shipyards get precisely nothing. Zero. Not even a single ship. This is not fair and this is not right, it is absolutely disgusting in fact. And building relatively small ships like the Type 31 in blocks hundreds of miles apart, with the associated transport costs, is not efficient, or cost effective.… Read more »
8 Rivers? The batch one vessels were built in English yards.
O.K., all the rest, bar the batch 1 Rivers then. That still isn’t fair.
and should have corvette modification work done there as well
I seem to remember 11 nuclear submarines being built in England, is this nothing? All the UK’s fighter aircraft are also made in England but no one in wales, NI or Scotland seems to complain. The Clyde has been the dominant factor in British ship building for two centuries, it’s not a surprise that the last reminaing yards would be there. Cammal laird may be in England to make you happy but it’s a very limited facility, if you loose Rosyth then you loose the ability to build large ships and refit the QE class, CL backed the wrong horse… Read more »
Martin, you were putting up such a good defence, I thought. Pity about the last sentence. We are here to discuss, though (nobody outside of the forum gives a damn over any of our opinions) and there are pro/con examples among all of this. The ‘Racist’ remark has no place here – the word is disgustingly done to death everywhere else. I suspect that behind a lot of this is the fear that the UK will inevitably break up; ultimately the opposite of racism, I think.
Gavin if it were anyone else i would probably agree that throwing the racist accusation was a bit too far But this is Stephen we are talking about, when he first started commenting a few years back he never used this site for defence matters, he used it to complain about the “non-white British” population getting larger, all the time, until he was rightly called out for it It might be “non-white British” “foreign companies” “foreigners” or “Scottish shipyards” 95% of his comments are only made when there is an angle to attack anything that is not English and white,… Read more »
OK, cheers, I stand corrected on that basis. Trust ‘Stephen’ is thus the exception that proves the rule, for the most part.
Don’t believe everything people tell you on the internet Gavin, there are 2 sides to every story.
‘On that basis’ was included as a caveat, Stephen, but I agree could have been made clearer. Still, I note above that I’m apparently included on your hit list to some extent as well. It’s nice to feel wanted, so no worries.
You’re not included on my “hit list” (???) Gavin. No one is, I don’t even have a “hit list”, (lol!).
Peace and positive vibes.
i’ve got a ”list would you like to borrow it?
Sole Survivor, you are a liar. In fact I started commenting a few years back I talked ONLY about defence matters, mostly the Royal Navy, get your facts right. I talked about the non stop immigration problem ONLY when other people brought the topic up (way less than 1% of my comments). You are a liar. And no, “95%” of my comments are not when there is “anything to attack that isn’t English and white”, again you are a liar. But yes, if I have an opinion on a topic at hand, I will voice my opinion, as much as… Read more »
the ‘save the royal navy’ site suffers from constant racist anti colonial posts from a cretin called ahmed iqbal i hope this fool is not posting on here under a false name.
I think He is Andy! You may guess who!
Gavin, you know how much anti Scottish poison i have to put up with on this site? Even the authors go out of their way to inflame the situation and I for one am sick of it, so excuse my little rant at pointing out racist behaviour on the comments.
Thanks for coming back to me, Martin. My particular sensitivity does revolve around the R word (in fact I prefer the conventional F word – and I don’t mean Facebook!) which is so often used to shut down any opinion that does not accord with ones own. I’m of an age that does not mind absorbing the occasional ‘hurtful remark’. Regards
id also like to apologise for my constant anti scotish dockies jibes, but i do think scotish dockies are lazy incompetent, badly run, underworked economy breaking cretins, lucky to work in an area where under capacity is the main issue. sorry again guys.
If I am an anti Scottish “racist” why do I constantly say the frigate factory should be built on the Clyde?
Martin, saying Scotland shouldn’t get every single last R.F.A. ship on top of getting every single last R.N. ship isn’t “anti Scottish poison”, or “racism”, you need to get some thicker skin/get rid of that chip on your shoulder.
I love Scotland by the way, and want the Union to continue with every fibre of my being, and have said so on here many times.
“Gavin Gordon”, the “racist” word is done to death on here too. How about we discuss the subject like adults without getting personal/childish name calling. If you think the solid support ships should be built in Britain, then apparently that’s “racist”. If you don’t think every single last R.N/R.F.A. ship should be built in Scotland, then that is also “racist”. If you don’t think we should keep allowing immigration until Europeans are outnumbered in our own homeland (whilst no one else outside of Europe does the same) then that too is “racist”. lol, none of this is “racist”, it is… Read more »
Yeh, it’s getting tiresome, isn’t it? Despite that, among this whole string and from all quarters there have been a good few alternative viewpoints about how the UK operates – who does what, etc. Quite expanding. Here endeth the political lesson. I see that the T31 technical discussion continues in the next post……
Yeah it really is. We can all say our piece, (without childish name calling/personal attacks), and should do, it is called having an adult conversation! It is how we learn. Thanks for having some respect/common sense. Have a nice day.
You may be right about the root cause Gavin but comments posted by one person in particular did have a rather anti Scottish feel to them. I myself would not have used the term Martin did but when people up here are caught between the Scottish Nazi Party and anti Scottish Englanders, well heckles get raised, especially if those Scottish people consider themselves British first.
Martin
“I seem to remember 11 nuclear submarines being built in England, is this nothing?”
They have to be built in England as you have voted in the SNP that are so anti nuclear that they would have turned those orders down anyway
Those submarines were built in England Long before the SNP or Scottish independence was even a thought, so clearly your statement is nonsense. Despite Your claim that they could not be built in Scotland due to SNP bias it’s worth noting that there reactors are developed in Scotland and the UK’s entire nuclear Arsenal is stored in Scotland and the SNP has done nothing about either. They are not built in Scotland because no one in Scotland has built a submarine much less an SSN. Also Scotland gets to play host to 20 old Subs waiting for decommissioning and again… Read more »
Martin Ok i take your point about the building of the subs But the point i was trying to make was the fact that the SNP has made it their aim to get rid of nuclear In which case when (not if ) you become independent you will want to get rid of all things nuclear So where do you get these 20 old subs from that are in Rosyth As far as i know 13 of those subs you mentioned are stored at Devonport Which by the why happens to be the nuclear sub re-fitting and refueling base for… Read more »
Hi Barry you are correct about submarines, my apologies, there are only 7 hulking old submarines sitting in Rosyth about a mile away from Scotland’s second largest city. we should also note that it’s not just the SNP that wanted rid of Nucleur, indeed every major party in the UK with the exclusion of the Tory’s has been anti nuclear and not one of them has ever done a thing about it when they got into power. As for Cornwall and Devon readily accepting the nuclear weapons storage depot from Scotland, I think you’ll find the MOD’s assessment drastically disagrees… Read more »
We are talking about ships. There are only 11 submarines. Also we English pay around 90% of the cost of the Royal Navy. There are dozens upon dozens upon dozens of ships in the R.N./R.F.A. Do you honestly think it is fair that every single last one is built in Scotland? I don’t mind some ships being built in Scotland, I don’t even mind most, but not every single last one. Surely any reasonable person can see what we are saying here. If you think we English are paying 90% of the cost of the R.N. to merely build a… Read more »
England has 8 submarines currently building or will be. But it’s a shame all our yards are closing! England has a huge shipbuilding heritage and should still build warships!! Let’s hope it gets better in future. And English yards did build lots of sections for the two carriers aswell.
Agree Cam. If destroyers and frigates are to be built on the Clyde, and Type 31 is to be built at Rosyth then our centre for building R.F.A. ships should be Cammell Lairds. Scotland can’t have R.F.A. ships on top of every single R.N. ship, surely and fair minded person can see what we are saying here.
All RAF Typhoons assembled in England – none in Scotland. We are still one country and the the work is pooled and shared, scotland happens to build a lot of ships.
Some perspective – England has by far the biggest (arguably the only) shipyard in the UK – it’s called Barrow and it has around 50 billion of work locked in. The T31 is 2 billion tops and not all of it will be in Scotland. T26 is 4-5 billion over the next 10 years.
If the worst happens and the SNP won a referendum then replicating Govan on Merseyside shouldn’t really be too difficult. Moving nuclear is harder
Nice looking ship, and a large ship also, I hope it gets a nice fit out, but how will this ship be built far far faster than the type 26 when it’s not far off its size.
Boris should double the type 31 orders and triple the budget, even 4 billion for 10 ships is a great price in today’s advanced warship design and prices and the money’s spent over years so won’t cost that upfront.
The type 26 is being built at a snails pace. From memory the type 45s were built in half the time. If the first is ordered this year there is not reason it can’t be on sea trials by 2023
In service 2009 to 2013, very impressive indeed.
I agree – its all funny money anyway as it works out at 400m per year when the annual equipment budget is supposedly £18bn
So a single years equipment budget could buy 45 of these vessels… which really puts it all into perspective. The RN would love 1 of these perm year and at 2% of the overall annual equipment budget why not?
The “equipment” budget covers everything from maintenance to R&D, new purchases are a very small bit of that, The lines share is also devoted to Dreadnought program when it comes to new purchases.
Hi Martin You are correct – it covers the product and 10 years of maintenance as well as new facilities I believe. The issue I have with this is that it skews the costs disproportionately as a T26 does not cost £1.2bn it costs that to build and maintain for 10years and the maintenance will probably account for 40-60% of the cost, so the product itself is circa £600m which is very good value for money in todays world, but all the newspapers say is £1.2bn. The nuclear fleet should account for circa 25% of the equipment budget, I would… Read more »
If Scotland is going to get every single R.N. ship, bar none, then in future England has to get every R.F.A. ship, bar none.
Ok and they get more complex submarines.. lots of people forget that.
Ok, and we pay around 90% of the cost..lots of people forget that.
Just England then? I suppose NI and Wales can just go a **** themselves, or do you include them in your “England” Just trying to get an handle on your bias Stephen, Is it just Scottish and non white people you don’t like or is it everyone outside of England?
What Welsh shipyard are you referring to Martin? I dislike Scotland so much I constantly say the frigate factory should be built on the Clyde! When did I say I “don’t like Scottish or non white people” Martin? Why are you making up lies about me Martin? You guys need to learn to argue about the facts without throwing personal insults around. You don’t ever see me doing that, unless someone does it to me first. Would you think it is reasonable if Scotland got every single R.F.A. ship on top of every single R.N. ship Martin? Can you honestly… Read more »
You’re wide of the mark there Martin, Stephen is arguing for more of the money being spent in England where the majority of the funding comes from. I’m not sure I agree with Stephen but I can see his point.
Not once, as far as I’ve seen, has he said he doesn’t like Scotland or Scottish people, and as for your baseless comments about him not liking ‘non-white’ people, YOU owe him an apology.
This is the kind of ad hominem that has partly led to the coarse and divided society we now live in.
Absolutely need more than 5. If the government is serious about beefing up security as they say they are post-strait of Hormuz incident, they really have to up the order
No doubt the best ship won. I’m interest to know the break down of foreign content though. How much of the ships systems will be brought in from Denmark, are the MTU engines made in Germany, the radar and cms is also not British.
Unfortunateltly for the all British consortium to win we would have had to settle for a smaller less flexible design which isn’t acceptable.
There is also little hope of wining exports off the back of this contract. How could we compete with Denmark marketing their own design.
Development of CMS is moving to UK.
Arrowhead design is more advanced than than the Danish one, and doesn’t lock people into the danish modular weapons systems.
The Iver yards have been cold for quite some time and it would be quite the effort to get them restarted (even if the ships were built in the importing nation’s yards). By the end of the first batch of T31’s Babcock et. al. will benefit from a hot production line, with all the efficiency gains the end of the learning curve delivers. Arrowhead 140 minus UK Govt furnished equipment should by that point be coming in at roughly £200m per unit, todays money. They’d be cheaper than the current Danish competition (link below puts that @ roughly £300m p.… Read more »
Two South Korean Corvettes selling at £230m p. u.
https://www.asiapacificdefensejournal.com/2019/08/philippines-strongly-considering-south.html
Good news I hope.
My main concern is having a credible ASW role. The MEKO I’d be pretty sure would be reasonable at this ( eg quietness etc) as the ANZAC frigates are based on it. But the Arrowhead I’m not sure about. The Danish frigates seem more AAW I gather which is fine but no one will buy an export version of T31 if it hasn’t got credible ASW potential.
Perhaps others more knowledgable can comment on this.
Is that not down to the client? I think the Huitfeldt can be rafted.
A repeat post but maybe something you hadn’t picked up, “Arrowhead 140 specifications already meet NATO noise requirements for an ASW vessel” quoted from the bottom of the Exportability page of the Arrowhead 140 web site.
Leander would have been the best at this with its electric drive.
Ben Stokes for Prime Minister, Pope And God!!!
I was purposely trying not to see the score, but then saw you post, so at least can now relax a little 🙂
The most astonishing innings in test cricket history……
Divine influence over that LBW, at least.
Sometimes you need a little luck…mind you, I wouldn’t have wanted to be the umpire giving Stokes out with that Headingly crowd!
Nicely ‘philosophical’
I think the right choice was made. On paper Arrowhead was clearly better.
Rosyth lost out big time when Submarine re-fit work was transferred to Devonport. Surface ship re-fit work is now done almost entirely at Devonport or Portsmouth, I do not hear any complaint’s from these yard’s about Rosyth losing out on this work. I have no doubt that large amounts of money will be spent building a new dry dock at Portsmouth for the QEC carriers, again without complaint from Portsmouth. It is time that Rosyth had some good news after years of being stabbed in the back and after working in the ACA partnership on the QEC project, as for… Read more »
I remember after already spending £500 million on digging a dock at Rosyth the Tory’s flipped the contract for Vanguard refilling to Devonport to try and hold a few marginal Tory seats. Strangely enough not Long after that people in Scotland started thinking about independence.
” Why is this always used as a bargaining tool when contracts like this come up.”
Then tell Nicola Sturgeon to stop going on about it all the time
When the SNP speaks in the commons all we hear from them is how hard Scotland is done by and threatening independence all the time
Dont you think we get fed up with it all
Don’t you think a lot of Scottish people get fed up of it as well.
“Time Rosyth had some good news after years of being backstabbed”? I agree with you that the loss of the submarine refit work was a blatant theft (Rosyth was the specialist nuclear refit site in the UK, Devonport pretty much stole it), but beyond that Rosyth hasn’t “lost out” in decades. The QEC build, despite the fact that Rosyth was never a shipbuilder. The submarine decommissioning is Rosyth. The UK bid for the support ships has Rosyth as the intended assembly site. The QEC refit contract is more likely to go Rosyth as well, because the expansion of Portsmouth would… Read more »
If someone has leaked the result of a procurement before the end of stand still it may cause a problem in that the result of a competitive tender can only be announced after standstill. The other competitors could challenge on that, if they have not even got to standstill and preferred bidder it could mean a reset for the whole thing.
Can’t put it past the government doing that on purpose. They stated the results would be published before the end of the year, this way they ensure no decision is made and can blame it on the leak. No decision means no need to find the funding that was missing from the mod procurement budget plans.
Seems a bit far fetched but remains possible.
More likely mod slackness in procurement. I’ve always been a bit amazed how defence procurement seems to lack a lot of the rigour of others. Maybe it’s because defence contractors don’t take the MOD to court and they seem to get whatever extra costs they need. Health providers take NHS commissioners to court pretty much as a standard exercise if they find the slightest hole in in the procurement process. This is reciprocated by NHS commissioners and the level of challenge and rigour if a NHS contracted provider overspends is high..and the only way they are ever given extra funding… Read more »
Excellent news!
Lets get on and build MORE THAN 5.
Absolutely essential we have more than five. It’s a golden opportunity to get more hulls in the water at a good price that can relieve higher end assets from mundane duties. Of course, HMG won’t have the foresight to order more than five, but it makes sense for RN to demand it
The moans and groans over who builds what here remind me of MP’s acting like they care for Defence when they complain that a base in their constituency is closing.
They don’t give a toss about what is beyond that and wider defence issues.
Lets get these built! In ANY British yard. And that includes Scotland where our best shipbuilders currently are.
Long live the Union! And regards to the Scots,who after all are British, my brothers and sisters.
I agree, we are a union and as such one country made of friendly regions, just each with our own sense of unique identity. There will be times where work share is spread evenly and times where it isn’t. Work should go to an area most suited geographically and with the right workforce skills. It might help I guess if each region had a predefined speciality. Whilst Scotland moans about not having their fair share, and English moan about Scotland having too much, spare a thought for Wales and n. Ireland who don’t seem to get bugger all and quietly… Read more »
Well said T.S.-a small point” ..Wales and N Ireland who don’t seem to get bugger all…”
Beware the double negative! 🙂
Well said!
M@
Still, that attitude worked out quite well when PM Gordon Brown applied it!
Good news. I predict that govt will intervene to give CL some work share. If I were negotiating it, I’d offer this to CL in return for a package which includes the marine transport of blocks to the integration yard in Scotland for a target cost which is ideally equal to the cost of all-in at Rosyth and/or H&W. This isn’t as dumb as it sounds as the marine transport element is actually not very costly in the scheme of things when you go by barge (marine heavy lift is another matter). It adds a bit of buggeration to the… Read more »
What is it we want from the T31’s? Is it the sub hunting qualities of the T23’s or a general purpose frigate that is more Jack of all trades and master of none? More to the point, will it be a war fighter capable of standing up to future threats? I feel it needs to do one thing really well if it to find its place in the Royal Navy of the future.
What’s needed Wayne, is a GP Type 23 replacement and the Arrowhead 140 fits that bill beautifully, it’s modular design and space giving great flexibility. I hope this is factual, a six ship order is a welcome increase, but let’s hope for more hulls after the 2020 Defence review. It’s been proven beyond doubt that the RN is at least 10 hulls short of a minimum escort force. We need a large hull with at least the capability of the GP Type 23, so 32 Sea Ceptors ( with full surface to surface capability added) and a 5″ main gun,… Read more »
If I remember correctly, wasn’t part of the cost savings coming from stripping the decommissioned T23 ships of any relevant equipment and have them installed on the T31e? So I would expect the Mk8 gun, the DS30 guns and other weapons to be mounted on the T31e.
Considering that the Iver Huitfeldt class frigates that the Arrowhead 140 is based on are AAW Frigates, wouldn’t they make a better platform for the Type 4X Destroyers?
Still too small to be a full DDG, the T45 has a beam of nearly 22m, to support the top weight of the Simpson radar.
The T45 has two 22 MW generator-turbines(gas), and that is still not enough power for the T45, that is why they are to have their 2 old diesel gens removed, to be replaced by 3 larger gens.
The Arrowhead with beam of 19.5m, could be installed with one MT30 (35MW) generator-turbines if need be.
I think a variant of the Arrowhead(T31) frigate would make a good AAW support vessel, but Not a full DDG. It would require an alternative lighter AAW radar, in order to take a more limited top weight of not more then about 5.5Kt.
The variant would supplement the T45’s also employing a system called, Cooperative Engagement Capability(CEC), effectively networking to the T45’s Simpson radar.
I keep seeing comments about ASW capabilities. This is not a single discipline. Blue water ASW is very different to littoral ASW. The RN’s SSN fleet is our premier ASW capability. Next consider the P-8 and Merlin. The T-26 and the T-23 with their towed arrays(also known as tails) are blue water specialists. The T-31 is currently a direct replacement for the T-23s without tails. If the RN and MoD decide we need more blue water ASW, then they are most likely order more T-26. T-31 is not meant to be a blue water ASW specialist.
I mentioned ASW in an earlier post. I don’t expect or believe that the T31’s will be ASW specialists but they do need to have a credible ASW fit and to be honest reasonably quiet. If they don’t have a decent hull form or quietness they will be knackered from the start. The UK of all countries should realise the danger of submarines and the 8 Type 26’s whilst brilliant (likely) in ASW are simply not enough. The T45’s have a minimal onboard sonar fit (nerfed for lack of money) which exacerbates the problem. The proliferation of submarines is IMHO… Read more »
Not that it makes the A140 a Type 26 ASW platform but, “Arrowhead 140 specifications already meet NATO noise requirements for an ASW vessel” quoted from the bottom of the Exportability page of the Arrowhead 140 web site.
Who knows how this compares to other candidates, or other platforms, but its presumably credible.
If true then it’s good news IMHO as the best ship won, hopefully build starts soon enough to prevent post-POW skills wastage at Rosyth.
As others have said surely the navy will designate the Bae CMS and Artisan.
FSS to Merseyside would complete the picture
F.S.S. to Merseyside would be “racist” according to some on here (lol!).
I think we all need to remember that this isn’t confirmation. Journalists can be wrong: just the other day it was claimed that the Type 26 would have a top speed of 2000 mph! I do think most of us prefer this design, though it does raise a couple of questions. I for one like the proposed spread of the work across the UK.
I still have a sneaking suspicion that Leander will win, but we’ll have to await for the official announcement.
Leander makes more sense for the Type 31 on so many different levels. It supports British ship design, it uses more British equipment, it has electric drive for A.S.W. work, it will allow the ships to be built in England on 1 site (which is more efficient and cheaper) leaving Rosyth free to assemble the solid support ships.
Do we know what radar this ship will be getting? It looks awfully small in the image! As far as I’m aware the Artisans are going to the T26’s. Will the radar fit allowed within the right budget actually allow this ship to be a proper fighter if required, or will it get a 2D type as per the rivers?
Would this design allow some form of ADL to be incorporated? Having a deck missile launching system would give the ships a fairly low cost, albeit a limited, attack capability
Shipwise : probably the best option, although the Absalon with its dock would perform a better littoral role. The concern is , whatever its advantages over the Leander, it still has the same budget and therefore weapon and sensor limitations. Because it is modern frigate size are we in danger of putting these ships and their crews into situations that are more than challenging? Fitted for and not with needs to be addressed, under armed Type 45s minus hull sonars and a full range of weapons are a classic example. Industrial strategy wise: Can Babcock actually deliver this? As opposed… Read more »
Not much point fitting Sea Ceptor with a 2D, though.
That’s actually an interesting question though? Sea Ceptor is described as working “with all modern 3D radars” and that would be desirable (and T31 should have it, either with Artisan or NS100) but does it actually need it? Could it get adequate initial targeting off a 2D radar in combination with other optical and thermal sensors for example, given it doesn’t need targeting radar because of its own RF sensor. A further question might be whether it even needs additional sensors for a low end, point defense solution? The Terma Scanter 4100 in the B2’s can detect sea skimming missiles.… Read more »
Would think 2D enough to utilise Ceptor in a ASuW role, but could you honestly be arsed to go through all the machinations involved in working around the possible 2D limitations? In no way saying you are wrong, principally because I don’t know, but if Sea Ceptor is the default ship-based system I would think your funding would cover making that as comprehensive as possible. Extrapolating, I have wondered if you can have both an extra mission bay, which would qualify under the 31’s current role, and mk41 silos whenever you require. Still, the design is adaptable for one or… Read more »
I agree that deploying Sea Ceptor with 2D radar is probably only something that might be exercised in extremis for a B2 or RFA vessels already fitted with 2D radar, which is what prompted me to think about it originally. I just thought it something interesting to comment on. T31 seems pretty certain to be fitted with Artisan or NS100. At present as illustrated/shown, it looks like the CAMM mushroom farm is a straight transplant from the T23 and is in the same location as anything up to 32 MK41 VLS would be fitted. So it looks like the forward… Read more »
The overall conclusion from most of this discussion, is that the Arrowhead is the better hull design and there’s a deficit of hulls or future orders in some U.K. shipyards. Therefore, surely we have to commit all RFA builds to U.K. yards in an attempt to make up the balance? As a maritime nation, shutting down any existing yard is not the answer and hopefully never will be! The maritime industrial Mersey, Clyde…have suffered greatly in the past, and their settled populations/communities depend greatly on shipbuilding, as we saw with the decline of Birkenhead and Glasgow in the seventies. Doesn’t… Read more »
Agree with all of this Ian.
Are you kidding me Babcock couldn’t organise a p@@up in a brewery, trust me I’ve worked with these idiot’s for the last 10 yrs ?????????
If the Arrowhead 140 concept is chosen then I’d still be of the opinion that we’ll end up with only six Type 26 and the rest Type 31 (possibly 10) with Sea Ceptor, Artisan and the to-be-confirmed anti ship missiles. I can’t see The Type 31s being equipped with Mark 41 VLS now unfortunately. This leads me to now think of the following: What is the procurement status of the support ships? What is going on with the ‘Littoral Strike Ships’? We desperately need vessels to patrol UK waters. We should build 10 vessels based on the BMT 48 metre… Read more »
The 31e was originally planned for duties East of The Suez Canal/The Gulf.
If this is still the case, then I really can’t see it being able to defend against Iranian threats without sea captor.
Will it also have any ASW capabilities in the form of Sea Venom?
Correction: AShM. My fingers ran ahead of my brain!
I’d imagine some will have cannisters and the rest will rely on sea venom.
I just looked up the design blueprint on the BMT site of those 48m Patrol vessels. What an absolutely excellent craft! I Agree, about 10+ would serve us well in offshore coastal patrol and fisheries protection. They are Rated up to sea state 6, 37Kn and can be armed with the same pop gun as our 90m corvettes but from a £££ perspective are a fraction of the price. As Lean crewed (28 birth) large boats they would be cheap to operate, even more so if personnel could be drawn from RN reserve to operate them. After leaving the EU,… Read more »
I agree with all that. T31e unlikely to get Mk41 for cost reasons but Sea Ceptor and Artisan are surely a given due to cross-decking from upgraded T23 I would have thought, plus interim canister-launched ASM solution whatever that ends up being. And given the successive cuts in planned vs built numbers for T45 it would be dangerous to assume that the same couldn’t happen with T26. I’m frankly perplexed about the lack of info on the support ships. We’ve seen almost every step of this T31e dance and been able to see the various bidders’ designs evolve and sometimes… Read more »
I have not heard any further news on the support ships or ‘littoral strike ships’ and think the Government now has a good opportunity to build these ships using a common hull and design.
This common hull could be taken from the Tide Class tanker and used as a template to ‘cookie cut’ the support ships, littoral strike ships and Albion replacements. The ship design could resemble the Karel Doorman.
I managed to find this link on the Littoral Strike Ships with a link to a brochure:
https://prevail-partners.com/special-projects/
I wonder if its the winner or just the preferred bidder? Normally you would go the preferred bidder keeping the other as options. You’ll still have some contractual things to sort out so you can remind the preferred bidder that there’s someone waiting in the wings if they decide not to play ball.
So Scotland retains its monopoly on shipbuilding in the UK, joy. Should disperse it to other yards in case of another push for independence. No sense putting all the eggs in one basket
I’ll try and keep the SNP separate from the people of Scotland as they should not be confused. One interesting point is the SNP(via Scottish government) now own Ferguson Marine. The SNP have previously said Scottish shipbuilding does not need UK defence orders. So are they going to take this golden opportunity to prove this and reject T31 orders and focus on building business that doesn’t need UK defence orders and use Scottish tax payers money to do this. No of course not. The irony is Ferguson could be successful because of UK Defence orders but no doubt we won’t… Read more »
Super sized OPV,OK for checking fishing net mesh size,but for conducting war you need a warship.
Large for frigates