Over the last four years, the United Kingdom has demonstrated a marked 48.05% increase in its spending on complex weapons delivery.
Maria Eagle MP, Shadow Minister (Defence), asked a series of Parliamentary Written Questions:
“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how much his Department has spent on weapons support in each financial year since 2019-20”, also “To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how much his Department spent on complex weapons delivery in each financial year since 2019-20”, and finally “To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how much his Department spent on weapons engineering in each financial year since 2019-20.”
James Cartlidge, Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, responded with the following information.
| 2019-20 £million | 2020-21 £million | 2021-22 £million | 2022-23 £million | |
| Complex Weapons Delivery Equipment Plan spend | 644.741 | 632.719 | 832.632 | 954.508 |
| Complex Weapons Delivery Operating Costs | 18.521 | 27.495 | 27.826 | 25.478 |
The costs provided in this response represent Equipment Plan spend and Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) Operating Costs. Expenditure on Raw Materials and Consumable is excluded.
Financial Year 2023-24 spend is not included as costs have not yet been finalised, added the Minister.
So what is going on here? Is labour constructing a defence budget in anticipation of government?
To some degree they will want their manifesto pledges to be achievable. So say complex weapons they will have a manifesto pledge to work with EU on complex weapons projects, so to that they need so tangible budget, EU won’t be interested if we’re spending a fiver.😀.
There also an element of looking for something they can use to attack the government. Which is ironic becuase if we’d all voted Labour last election we would of had JC and no tangible complex weapons budget 😀
Could be; or maybe he just thinks we are paying too much to the likes of Boeing and LM for missiles.
Can we not mention JC…a lucky escape…it brings me out in hives.
Yes me too, he would still be saying if we renounce all weapons Russia will be a benign and positive neighbour. Weird that because they were once a far left State he can’t bring himself to be critical even though they are now a bit far left, mostly far right and devoted
nationalists so not any difference really.
Just out of interest, what falls under Complex Weapons? Trying to work out if this is part of the normal ebb and flow of defence procurement, whether it was really low in the first place, or whether this is a genuine increase (the option I’m most sceptical about due to our lack of money).
Seems like quite a easy bowl for a shadow Defence Sec to be directing at the man in the main role, given it’s an election year…
Some will be the
Then there is also the factor that a lot of this is new systems so there is less being spent on churning over old stuff.
New stuff coming in means that old stuff has to be decommissioned and made safe.
So without a breakdown, which in these times we won’t see, it is meaningless!
OK, thanks, that’s helpful.
So, in other words, an expansion based broadly upon long-standing plan rather than a response to Ukraine. Not bad, not great, just business as usual.
From memory, reading an MoD equipment plan doc and studying the DE&S operating divisions, teams, CW is anything above your simple ordnance like bullets, shells mortar rounds, and dumb bombs, which we no longer have anyway, but excludes nuclear.
So
TLAM
Brimstone, Stormshadow, Hellfire.
Viper and Ceptor.
Venom and Martlet and Harpoon.
NSM.
HVM, LMM.
ASRAAM, AMRAAM, Meteor.
PIV. I think?
Stingray and Spearfish. I think?
That sort of thing.
Thanks mate, I like to have some idea of what’s in what box!
So, aside from long term plan, the only real thing that’s a response to the greater security threat are the NSM, and maybe increased production of Brimstone, LMM/HVM, and NLAW to make up for what we’ve sent to Ukraine (if we are, indeed, replenishing stocks). Unless I’m missing something.
Greater procurement quantities for sure.
Buying larger number isn’t necessarily linear in costs terms once training, testing, maintenance and spares are taken into account.
So for some things a lot more units won’t cost as much as you would think.
Very true, I’m all for savings in quantities of scale!
Yes I think so, for this area of defence. Expansion of SHORAD and MRAD in the British Army too, which is a part of your HVM reference. More Land Ceptor, including ER type.
The army could really do with working out a replacement for Stormer, whether that’s on a Boxer hull or a Supacat like those frankensams that we sent to Ukraine. I’m not sure if that’s in the works or not though.
I think one of the lessons I’m seeing from Ukraine is not just greater range (Land Ceptor-ER) but more systems- I know that Ukraine is a particularly large country but we have so few batteries…
And AAA, whether that’s in a Pantsir-style combination with HVM, or as a separate vehicle.
It is. I’ve heard there is a Boxer HVM incoming and, before that, as part of the tripling of SHORAD, the wheeled Skyranger, as a rapid OTS purchase.
Correction, VTAC Rapid Ranger.
There is a report on Shepard Media 18March, quoting an army source saying that the army ‘has a requirement’ for a 120mm turret mortar Boxer.
Sounds about right but then there’s the (to me) grey crossover area of smart rounds such as the 57mm MAD-FIRES. Any idea what side of the dividing line those fall into? Personally I’d call those “bloody amazing complex weapons” since i find it so incredible what they can fit into a 57mm package and have it survive the g-forces of being shot out of a gun.
I think DaveyB might even have mentioned once that they (not sure who “they” are) are investigating getting MAD-FIRES technology into a 40mm package – handy for T31 if it can be done and getting it into a 40mm would totally blow my mind in terms of being impressed.
Think Mad Fires dead, it was a DARPA funded system and never adopted by the USN who are buying a Northrop Grumman proximity fused 57mm round.
The 57 mm gun barrel is not water cooled as the Oto Melara
76 mm so expect it can only fire approx. 10 rounds before having to stop to cool down otherwise it would the burn barrel out
Ah. Thanks for that info Nick. That’s a bit of a shame just on the basis that I would have liked to see the technology in action.
I guess that for short-ish range defensive systems proximity fusing brings benefits and longer term for reduced cost vs missiles for future close(ish) range defensive systems maybe the USN and DARPA prefer to invest in laser systems research to ultimately deliver the lowest per-shot cost that with enough research funding can one day will get to multi-kilometre effective ranges.
Barrels don’t burn out that quickly.
The use of modern steels, auto frettage, barrel chroming all increase barrel life. With wind across the deck for air cooling it’s not a massive issue.
You will get a Hot Gun situation after a few rounds but that is more of a range safety and miss fire issue. After firing a few rounds, you have a specific amount of time to remove a misfired round before it may cook off in the breach and go bang on its own. Thats an issue in peace time as you need to keep the gun pointing on a safe bearing whilst you remove the round and lower it safely into deep water. . Wartime …you take the round out and quickly float test it…something the round always fails at.
Yes, water cooling helps with Rounds per Min but also adds complexity to the design. It also greatly increases the maintenance load. On OTO having to remove the water jacket was not a quick or easy thing. Allen key screws torqued, and wire locked into place on the fume extractor. If you didn’t flush and clean it after a shoot, then it clogged up with salt very quickly rendering it useless.
Not a clue Julian.
If you correct for inflation based on CPI then it’s nearer 20%. Since defence inflation generally outpaces CPI inflation, the increase is probably lower in real-terms. Clearly it’s still significant, and consistent with the recent tendency in defence to focus on high-end equipment to the detriment of other areas- i.e. personnel and facilities.
Why do we keep getting this BS about future spending? It’s never going to happen! 1 in 5 people of working age in this country don’t work apparently. 1 in 5!! It’s costing us billions and useless PM pledges $500m to the French who cannot stop one rubber boat when TEN set sail on the same day. Giving kit away to Ukraine which is not replaced. Personnel retention a worse problem than recruitment. Half empty aircraft carriers. 3 wedgetails. Good riddance to you utter useless tories.
Would have to look at what the historical rates of people not working is. I suspect it’s even higher than 1in 5 when considering housewives, retire early, rich people etc.
Agree. Utter incompetence bordering on treason.
the uks biggest problem is procurement we are shit at it
Complex Weapons Group at Abbey Wood and their close partnerships with system manufacturers is a massive success story and should be used as a template for other procurement arrangements.
Consider the following
1) there is a nuclear armed mad psychopathic dictator waging a war of conquest on our continent
2) this war of conquest has shown beyond any shadow of doubt that having adequate numbers of precision guided munitions is vital to prosecute a war, especially a defensive war. Therefore having adequate stocks in hand before a war erupts is vital.
3) Attrition even for prepared highly trained armed forces is a fact when commited to battle.
Now ask yourself. Is this Tory government doing anywhere near enough to prepare the UK and it’s armed forces for a potential conflict against the new axis of Russia, China, North Korea and Iran?
Answer as far as I’m concerned is a definite no. Precision munitions spending should be 4-5x this value as a minimum.
Storm shadow, brimstone, NSM, meteor, aster 30nt, tomahawk all should be being ordered in their hundreds and hundreds. We won’t be able to get our hands on them if a war breaks out involving us directly.
Non complex weapons apparently do still work. There’s a video on Forces dot net that purports to show a French helicopter downing a drone with a machine gun.