Aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth and her Carrier Strike Group have entered the South China Sea, a region largely claimed by China.
The aircraft carrier and her escorts were recently in Singapore before entering the South China Sea.
HMS Queen Elizabeth and elements of her Carrier Strike Group have arrived in Singapore.https://t.co/ERUWE3PREF
— UK Defence Journal (@UKDefJournal) July 26, 2021
China claims almost all of the 1.3 million-square-mile South China Sea as its sovereign territory, and it has denounced the presence of foreign warships there as the root of tensions in the region.
China say that its claim to the sea is based both on the Law of the Sea Convention and its so-called ‘nine-dash’ line. This line extends for 2,000 kilometers from the Chinese mainland, encompassing over half of the sea. However in an historic decision in 2016, the international tribunal in The Hague ruled against part of China’s claims to the sea. The US, UK and Australia routinely conduct freedom of navigation operations (or FONOPs) to challenge what Washington calls “attempts by coastal states to unlawfully restrict access to the seas”.
Both the US and UK have angered China previously by carrying out FONOPs in the South China Sea to assert rights to freedom of navigation.
Chinese defence spokesman Tan Kefei was quoted in the South China Morning Posas saying:
“The Chinese side believes that the South China Sea should not become a sea of great power rivalry dominated by weapons and warships. The real source of militarisation in the South China Sea comes from countries outside this region sending their warships thousands of kilometres from home to flex muscles. The Chinese military will take necessary measures to safeguard its sovereignty, security and development interest as well as peace and stability in the South China Sea.”
Back at the start of the month, Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab told MPs that “It’s absolutely right we exercise and defend the rights, and we do so from the Ukrainian territorial sea to the South China Sea” after discussions on a British warship sailing through Ukrainian territory claimed by Russia.
Yesterday, ships from the UK’s Carrier Strike Group performed an exercise with the Republic of Singapore Navy.
According to the Ministry of Defence,:
“The exercise, to advance interoperability and coordination between the two navies, builds on the deep and long-standing defence partnership between the UK and Singapore. It was also the first time that ships from the Royal Navy’s 5th generation Carrier Strike Group exercised alongside the RSN.”
Eight ships were involved in yesterday’s exercise say the MoD:
- HMS Queen Elizabeth, aircraft carrier
- HMS Kent, Type 23 anti-submarine frigate
- HNLMS Evertsen, De Zeven Provicien-class frigate (Royal Netherlands Navy)
- USS The Sullivans, Arleigh Burke-class destroyer (US Navy)
- RFA Tidespring, Fast Fleet Tanker
- RSS Intrepid Formidable-class frigate (Republic of Singapore Navy)
- RSS Unity Independence-class littoral mission vessel (Republic of Singapore Navy)
- RSS Resolution Endurance-class landing ship tank (Republic of Singapore Navy)
What happened last time a British vessel sailed through the South China Sea?
In 2018, assault ship HMS Albion was challenged by a Chinese frigate and two helicopters during freedom of navigation exercise in the South China Sea. Local media report that both sides remained calm during the encounter and the Royal Navy assault ship continued on course despite protests from China.
What is the UK Carrier Strike Group doing?
HMS Queen Elizabeth is the deployed flag ship for Carrier Strike Group 21 (CSG21), a deployment that will see the ship and her escorts sail to the Asia-Pacific and back. The Carrier Strike Group includes ships from the United States Navy, the Dutch Navy, and Marines from the US Marine Corps as well as air assets from 617 Sqn, 820 NAS, 815 NAS and 845 NAS.
The Royal Navy say that the UK’s Carrier Strike Group will visit more than one fifth of the world’s nations. Led by HMS Queen Elizabeth, the task group will visit 40 nations including India, Japan, Republic of Korea and Singapore in a deployment covering 26,000 nautical miles.
“While in the Pacific, ships from the Carrier Strike Group will mark the 50th anniversary of the Five Powers Defence Agreement between Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand and the UK by taking part in Exercise Bersama Lima. Joining HMS Queen Elizabeth on her maiden deployment are destroyers HMS Diamond and Defender; frigates HMS Richmond and Kent; an Astute-class submarine in support below the waves; and Royal Fleet Auxiliary support ships RFA Fort Victoria and RFA Tidespring.
More than 30 aircraft will also embark across the task group including F-35 jets from 617 Squadron, the Dambusters, and the US Marine Corps’ VMFA-211; Wildcat helicopters from 815 Naval Air Squadron and Merlin helicopters from 820 and 845 Naval Air Squadrons. Royal Marines from 42 Commando will also deploy with the carrier. Dutch frigate HNLMS Evertsen and American Arleigh Burke destroyer USS The Sullivans are also part of the strike group.”
Currently however, HMS Diamond isn’t with the group after suffering a defect. You can read more about that here.
Bit rich from the country building artificial islands and filling them with military equipment. “Shouldn’t become an area for great power competition” in this context means “Go away and let us have it.”
Exactly. And if not challenged, they will get away with it, thereby setting a precedence.
After finally seeing the map it is quite chilling to see them forcing a number of other nations there to effectively stay within their 12 mile limits. How does the UN stand by and see such precedents being made while condemning easy targets elsewhere if they act at all.
Totally agree, they have basically adopted the entire sea except what they cannot within the other nations defendable waters.
The UN clearly has no interest in stepping in despite previous international rulings, ultimately doesnt China have a veto on the UN decisions?
No, but China has bought the votes of many other nations around the world. Russia does have a veto and it supports China simply to destabilise things.
Hi Lee (great name by the way) I was under the impression that all 5 members of the permanent security council have a veto.
Yep, you are correct. Not sure what I was thinking. Either way they still get support from all those that they have bought. And Russia supports them pretty much purely due to wanting to cause instability. Not sure Russia will be quite so supportive when China takes back most of Russia… (China sees that vast majority of East Russia as theirs and having been unfairly taken from them in much the same way they see the Republic of China as theirs and Much the same way as Russia sees Crimea).
Many thanks for your reply and I agree with everything you say. You have to think if we can see this then surely those that are in power can as well
Lee 1, Yupp n Ruskies forget who kicked thgier Tushes in the 18 50s with the aid of our new allies the frogs in the Crimean Wars, Charge of Light Brigade n all that stuff, reet Lees 1&2??
“How does the UN stand by and see such precedents being made while condemning easy targets elsewhere if they act at all.”
Because the easy targets don’t have nuclear weapons and an army of 2 million soldiers. The calculation is basically that we can enforce UN rules, but it might be at the small cost of human civilisation.
The UN is only strong when it comes to Democracies because they know there won’t be any comeback. The fact that most UN members are Dictatorships doesn’t help either.
Partially – the UN did sanction the liberation of Kuwait in 1991 (UN Resolution 678) as an example. However, as you say, with so many countries effectively being autocracies it does make it difficult to establish any kind of objective moral high-ground without constantly relying on troops from only the Democracies (many of whom have questionable records themselves – and I don’t exempt the UK from that either)
Kuwait and Korea 2 examples in over 70 years. HMG refugee policy = UN outrage. Xinjiang = UN silence. We’re even long past Moral Equivalence.
I agree – the UK is a nuclear armed democracy. China is a nuclear armed autocracy. No country, with a UN mandate or otherwise, is likely to really take on China over domestic human rights abuses. The SCS is a concern though because it is an area where international conflict is not a totally unrealistic possibility given the vast natural resources and strategic value of the area. The UN have deployed the strongly worded letter regarding Xinjian but that’s about it.
Yep. The only block on China are it’s SCS neighbours if they don’t do it ( with the support of others) then no one will.
But then most people in the UK carry on buying Chinese goods…
And China has a powerful seat in the UN and can veto almost anything it doesn’t like or agree with
….Because China, like the US, UK, france and russia each have a veto over anything the UN might want to do….
Exactly
agree
Well that was always going to happen wasn’t it
My fear is the same policy could be applied to other areas of direct interest to China across the World. This would immediately restrict free international sea-ways. The right to sail the SCS is clear, and regular naval sailings must be maintained, to demonstrate the rest of the World’s intention to ignore Chinese threats.
Now to over-fly their man made islands.
That would really rattle the cage!
However would potentially give them radar data on the F35’s which maybes they are hoping to obtain?
F-35s always fly with radar reflecting panels fitted for precisely this reason
I am fully aware of that but my point is are they not hopefully trying to obtain radar data on the aircraft itself regardless of what it has fitted in order to develop better radar to track it?
Unlike what Trump liked to state that its invisible in reality something will be able to pick it up and track it they just need to work out how to.
They are not completely invisible and easy to be misinterpreted by most, even the president. They can still get tracked on turns. Closer they get to their objective they can be seen. Overall, their radar profile became smaller by design and paint. And lets not forget the opposition, they have the same.
I thought South Korea and Japan had F35s and is Singers not getting them as well?
I do agree it would rattle their cage and perhaps realise their true level of potency or not wrt to taking Taiwan.
Food for thought.
I think SK got it before Japan which ordered more recently, not sure if Japan has them on ground in Japan yet?
I doubt either of them would be flying them over the man made islands in the SCS, if they are fair play!
A Japanese F-35 crashed back in 2019, Pilot unfortunately didn’t make it.
Japan and South Korea are both in the process of receiving deliveries of F-35A, both nations, plus Singapore, have F-35B on order.
South Korea has already got some F35A’s, Japan has got about 22 F-35A’s.
Both have got B’s on order.
You do realize that the US has been operating F-35Bs.. in the neighborhood for a couple of years now? And there is a nuclear carrier battle group that also has a contingent of F-35Cs on it as you speak.. And yes the Japanese have been in the game for a long time.
Fully aware of that but im sure the Chines are going to be much happier getting close to the UK CSG than they would be a US one.
You should look up the Islands and check out the Radars, Runways and missile batteries, Very bad idea.
The expansive Chinese territorial claim in the SCS is unbelievable arrogance and not giving a stuff about the rights of other sovereign nations and peoples to their own territorial waters and economic existence? It’s good we and the Allies and like minded nations are making a stand for such fundamental freedoms.
Money. The base was closed back in 70’s because of it’s cost. Give the Treasury an easy target and sooner or later it’ll come back to bite you.
Should never have retreated from East of Suez. The immediate consequence of withdrawal from the RAF station in Bahrain was a four hundred % increase in the price of oil that triggered a global recession costing far more than maintenance of the base. Staying on within a sovereign base area in Singapore would have helped secure the highly profitable position in Hong Kong.
On oil price hike i’m pretty sure the huge increase in price of oil was the Arab states throwing their teddies out of the pram over 1973 Yom Kippur war. Hong Kong was a case of 1997 was going to happen. Short of going to war with China there wasn’t much we could do about that. On East of Suez I agree with you about the withdrawal from the Gulf I think the Gulf states even offered to pay our costs if we stayed. We can make a difference there cos Iran ain’t no China. Far East is just my personal opinion but I don’t believe then or now our forces are strong enough to make any difference vs China but I guess we can help as far as anything less than that kind of conflict.
But two squadrons of Hunter FGA9s at RAF Muharraq were enough to settle the whole Gulf theatre down, as the Gulf tyrannies knew there was more behind the Hunters. Once they were withdrawn, all inhibitions were released and old scores could be settled without the risk of British intervention. It’s debatable, but in the view of this writer, the Yom Kippur war was also an unintended consequence of our withdrawal.
Up until 1971, British power was not a mirage and did not have to be proved, although Suez in 1956 had caused a complete loss of confidence in Whitehall. The Wilson government was very Left-wing and seemed embarrassed by the remaining imperial legacies. By that time, most of what remained would have been income generating assets rather than liabilities. Which leads us to TSR2 and its potential role as a maritime strike bomber, apart from its role as a tactical nuclear bomber in the European theatre, in the defence of West Germany.
So let’s consider an alternative history. If a sovereign base had been carved out of Singapore, with RAF Changi retained in defence of the naval base at Woodlands, the position in the Far East would have been completely different. Add two squadrons of TSR2s with W177 nukes in store and suddenly the HK situation is transformed. From Singapore we were able to control the choke point of the Malacca Strait, and China is dependent on that waterway for its energy imports from the Gulf and other raw materials. If those squadrons had still been in place when Thatcher started negotiating with Deng in 1984, the outcome with HK could have been very different. Instead of Deng threatening Thatcher, as he did, she could have threatened Deng with a selective blockade of the Malacca Strait. But Wilson had cancelled TSR2 in favour of some F111s, and he cancelled them too.
The ifs of history. Interesting.
No amount of power in the area would’ve changed the fact that the lease was up on Kowloon bay and that was the primary water supply for HK
And the power plants where all in the territories.
Pity because I was there with the family 1993-96, came home and then promptly went back out on a ship for the handover… At least I knew where to go.
Well .. theoretically the UK could have continued to consider Taiwan the legitimate government of China (instead of following Nixon) and then hand over the new territories to them … and then lease them back …
The problem with HK was losing the lease on Kowloon bay and that being the primary water supply for the island
Yep. All China would have had to do was turn the taps off.
The following article is a bit long-winded and some of the stuff at the top only really identifies a history of trade but, if true, some of the alleged statements post WWII by British authorities that are documented within certainly shed a different light on the subject. Places some of the island chains in a light closer to South Georgia than you might otherwise think.
https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/historical-support-for-china-s-south-china-sea-territorial-stance-1
Interesting post. Thx.
Cheers. 24 hours ago I was in same place as most posters on here. Decided to do some historical digging. Looks like there was a reason it was called the SCS. I’m sure the article will have an element of pro chinese bias but the author appears to be a london based Brit academic researcher. Interesting days.
I’ll take look later but if China has a firm claim why ignore the UN. There must be some legal aspects they’re not comfortable with imo.
Just eyeballing the map if you accede to Chinese ( reasonable?) claims for sovereignty of the Spratley Islands and the Paracel Islands and if China were to concede the Philippines claim to the Scarborough Shoal if looks as though you might be able to draw 200 mile EEZ lines and 12m territorial waters limits which would create a channel across the SCS roughly from SW to NE which would be international waters.
UNCLOS82, to which China is a signatory, over-rules any fanciful historic claim.
Hey Paul. I also agree with your other post that was put up and taken down. 200 km wide international channel that people can navigate through as they see fit.
None of that changes the fact that under UNCLOS none of the islands count as granting territorial waters as none have a natural source of fresh water.
And China do themselves no favours having their nine-dashed line be so close as to even border the very minimum of other countries territorial waters.
Under UNCLOS China would not be able to claim territorial continental shelf but they would be able to claim ownership and establish a 12 mile limit.
I believe the same situation exists with contested claims for Rockall !!
The natural water source v ability to sustain life is also interesting.. I think the point the article is effectively saying is that in the past the Chinese treated and utilised the islands in the same way nomadic tribesmen may do in a desert. Moving between locations following the resource’s. My own experience of the SCS in places like Labuan and Natuna is also that it rains…a lot !
Interesting, I thought it was all about an ancient map some old Chinese fisherman found…🤔
No Type 45s at all. Didn’t we read Defender went into the SCS a few days ago? What’s so interesting elsewhere that the carrier group goes through the SCS without the remaining British destroyer?
Defender is visiting Brunei on a three-day diplomacy visit. Tidespring went alongside in Singapore briefly as well.
HMS Defender stopped in Brunei for a 3 day diplomatic visit, Should be sailing again anytime now and no doubt meet up with the rest of the group.
As I said before a Task Group does not spend all of its time sailing around as a Task Group. It stays together for Exercises and then bomb bursts for individual ports of call and commitments.
Unfortunately, China has been given too much leeway in already building the island bases. The world should have stepped in sooner.
Totally correct
To paraphrase … “People of the world unite, defeat the Chinese imperialists and all their running dogs : all are paper tigers”. The tables have really turned with the Chinese now being the rabid imperialists clinging on to territory to which they have no rights.
Agreed. Theirs is an outrageous claim; like us claiming the entire N sea as our soveriegn exclusive territory, demanding all other N sea states be limited to 20 miles from their coasts & throwing a hissy-fit with menace at anyone who challanges it. We’ve been too nice to the PRC too long when they’re just another rabid dictatorship.
Outrageous compared to what? Western democracies carving niches out of China and demanding the country open up to their monopoly of trade throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries? Lets look at this from a historically aggrieved Chinese point of view and not assume that all our intentions are moralistic and peace loving. UK government has after all openly stated that they want to open up the Far East for trade.
And before you ask no im not a looney liberal leftie, Armed Forces hater (im ex-forces) or Chinese/Russian Troll. Just very aware of Human Nature and that most people genuinely think that their cause is the moral, right one. I think the Chinese are no different.
Thing is China’s not grabbing anything from the West its grabbing territory from developing nations who need those resources more than China. China’s economics had more to do with the legacy of Chairman Mao’s policies in the 19th/20th century and the reality is China has done far better than the West in opening up its economy experiencing growth well beyond that of the West and at the expense of Western companies and their employees. I think the Chinese state knows their cause is not moral, what it does now is a world population expands the more territory you control the more commanding position you’ll be in, so in that respect they do see their cause as the right one.
“China has done far better than the West in opening up its economy experiencing growth well beyond that of the West”
Um, no. Chinas growth is no more impressive than that of Germany after 1871 and 1949 or the US around 1900. It’s just bigger in percentage numbers because Mao (and the Japanese before him) wrecked so much of the Chinese economy that any halfway reasonable economic policy was bound to produce growth in leaps and bounds. It basically was Germany 1871 and 1949 roled into one.
You’re quite right, our actions then were indefensible & I’m well aware of the shameful way we behaved. We’ve learnt the lesson of greedy colonialism, but it doesn’t make PRC right to do the same now after denouncing western colonialists for over a century by doing the same in Tibet, SCS or wherever they wish next. China itself is the result of millenia of colonialism by its own peoples..
Unlike the West, China has only two genders. They have a massive and growing military, a serious and uncompromising nationalistic agenda and dreams to conquer the world. They are a monolithic people with very few minorities, and those minorities are locked up or marginalized. They bully all their neighbours in the SCS and are close to a real war with India. If anything is going to happen this is where it will happen. And there is no guarantee the West would prevail. Far from it – we are weak and focused inward on domestic squabbles, and our young people have no warrior ethos. I SINCERELY hope I am wrong, but I think the West is going to get its’ a** kicked in the SCS. China is the world’s greatest threat to world peace.
The Quad, being US, India, Japan and Australia has enough naval firepower to thrash China in the SCS and clean out the Indian Ocean too. China knows this and is suddenly much less cocky. The PRC’s only path towards lebensraum is the Russian Far East.
Agree , unless the west ditches woke and Instills National pride and a more macho – warrior culture it will be defeated
Nope, we need more wokeness not less. People are entitled to be treated equally and history shouldn’t be white washed to feed a certain nationalistic narrative that refuses to own up to past mistakes and not repeat them, that is true weakness. You can be macho all you want but the operators of F35s, Type 45s and cyber warfare centres can be completely devoid of toxic masculinity but still be able to effectively use the kit that will deliver force to the enemy’s door step. I doubt the ability to chug 10 pints, come out with a discriminatory remark or wolf whistle at a woman is the skill set required in modern warfare.
Woke is just a word used by the far right to try to Justify why they should not change the way they do things… Why is someone who protests about racism be “Woke” yet someone protesting about their right to own a gun are somehow Morally fine?
Can we all please stop using that word ‘woke’ all it seems to do is get people worked up. ‘Do unto others as you would have others do unto you’ Oh and please don’t buy a gun unless your a farmer. ✌
If you haven’t noticed we are knee deep in a cultural revolution in the West. It’s kinda important to everything including our survival.
The left’s self declared “morale superiority” over the right is an absurdity. The reason why race and racism is center stage is because liberals make it so in EVERY SINGLE SUBJECT. As Morgan Freeman said “you want to get rid of racism? Stop talking about it and stop identifying and amplifying differences amongst our people.” Racism and woke culture is a clever political construct to grab and hold supreme executive power, to be able execute a socialist future. It starts with indoctrinating our young black and brown people as follows: 1. you’re a victim of the evil white man 2. you are owed something (the same material goods and services that others might have, same things) 3. the only person who can get you this is myself (typically the white liberal politician), but I need your VOTE. Then once in power – NOTHING HAPPENS. I know this to be true because I speak with Africans and West Indians all the time and they had no such indoctrination and tell me they are not subjected to racism. Far from it, they are punished by liberals for running business and being successful because it is “off message.” As they say “we’ve got your number.”
Okay, Lets deal with your quite absurd comment.
The Far left an the Far right obviously both think they are morally correct and that the other is wrong. Don’t point at just the Far left for this.
If anyone has amplified differences between our people it is the right. The Highly religious (Normally very strongly associated with the Right) have for centuries, refused to accept that Women are equal to men and that Disabled people are not worthy of a normal life. In fact they also make it clear that anyone that does not believe what they believe is worthy of death or at the very least worthy of ridicule. Then we have Brexit and other similar divisive issues. They were not instigated by the Left or the centrists (Although the supporters of it were not all right wingers), they are instigated by the Right. Lets look at the most divisive President in US History. Was he left or right? I am not saying the Left are pure and the Right are evil. However to suggest that the right are somehow persecuted and looked upon as Immoral by the left while the Right are not doing the same to the Left is ludicrous.
As for Woke. Woke is a far right term. It is used to attack anyone that wants change or to do the correct thing. Recently a US republican was attacking those that wear masks to prevent covid spread as Woke! Those calling for environmental reforms are called Woke, those wanting an end to Racism are called Woke.
Why is it okay for Right wing supporters to moan and protest while if those who want change (Not necessarily Lefties) are ridiculed by using the word Woke?
Now, it is also ridiculous that I as a Centrist am labelled a leftie for understanding science and wanting change. It is all due to an effort by Right wingers to shift the discussion away from actual factual arguments and to in fact shift it into a pure argument about political alignment. Look at the argument over gun laws in the US. Any remotely intelligent individual can see that what they have is utterly stupid and that Gun controls are needed in some way or other. The facts speak for themselves but the Right keep labelling it as communist in an effort to avoid the actual facts and make it an emotional argument.
Statues are a typical Left/Right argument. The Far Left argues they should be tore down (Which is ridiculous by the way) and the Far Right refuses to allow any sort of context around the person in question (Which is equally ridiculous). The rest of us think it is fair to keep the statues and fair to explain that maybe the people depicted by them are not necessarily angels and perhaps had quite a dark side. Explaining this is surely factual and the right thing to do? After all we learn from our mistakes more than we do our successes.
The highly religious ? You mean people like Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot. Just remind me what their religious views were ?
Hitler was very religious. He revered Christian artefacts and symbolism and wanted Nazism to be a religion. Stalin was brought up as a Orthodox Christian (very strict religious beliefs) and he even trained as a priest! He in fact carried on with his religion when leader as he often asked for advice from Priests. Pol Pot was bought up in religion and attended a Catholic school. Mao was slightly different. He was indeed brought up religious but he ended up seeing himself as the Idol of Maoism. So yes effectively Maoism is a religion and he was the god. In fact he is seen and worshipped as a god by Maoists.
😂 😂
Bloody hell, what book of history have you been reading??
☝ ☝
Actual History. Please prove me wrong…
Are you saying Stalin did not train as a priest?
Are you saying Mao is not revered as a god my Maoists? (Please explain how Maoism is much different from any religion you care to look at?)
Are you saying Hitler did not lust after Christian Artefacts?
Are you saying Pol Pot did not go to Catholic school?
Please show where I am wrong.
Wewelsburg was the effective home of the Nazi party and particularly the SS and they installed huge numbers of Religious symbols etc. The swastika is a widely used religious symbol and can be found in many British Churches…
You make some very cogent comments 🙂
I can’t spend a lot of text and real estate responding to that diatribe, but will leave you with this:
1. The left alone thinks men can get pregnant. That there are dozens of genders. If you want to be taken seriously, and be seen as a moderate, perhaps start there.
2. The US Administration is quite clear in their racist manipulation of brown people from South America “you can come here and all is fine, no need for a job or documents etc. As long as you vote democrat. This is because S. Americans are more likely to vote liberal than say Communist CUBANS – because Cubans will very likely vote conservative. The manipulation for black and brown votes is absolutely disgusting. And for what? Votes so you can stay in power? It’s racist. It just is. US Democrats have given up converting domestic conservative votes because they know they can’t – so they simply IMPORT THEM. WOW.
3. The left thinks it’s OK for a man to wake up one day, get out of bed and declare “I am now a woman.” Only a few weeks ago a naked grown man with a beard and an erection walked into a spa and settled into a hot tub with three little girls. A riot ensued. But the man was told he could do that. This is a problem, or not, depending on your ideology? That is just sick sick sick. So if you want to be aligned with that have at it but I predict a severe backlash especially in the US 2022 Mid Terms. This is what we are fighting against.
Blimey, you are too far gone. I am not aware of anyone (even the far left) that think that men can get pregnant…
As for Gender, “A class of things or beings distinguished by having certain characteristics in common; (as a mass noun) these regarded collectively” The word Genus (another word for species) gives us the word Gender. So yes there are many Genders as it is a classification of traits and not defined as simply the specific Sex of a person. The fact that you do not understand the true meaning of the word is not the fault of those using it correctly.
The Idea that firstly the Democrats are importing voters from South America is ludicrous (Especially as the vast majority of Hispanic people in the US are from Mexico which is in North America…), and secondly that the Democrats are on the Left of politics (They are as far to the left as our Conservative party were up until a couple of years ago). They are Left compared to the Republicans but then almost everyone is Left compared to the Republican party.
The Spa incident you have highlighted has not been proven to have even happened… QANON latched on to it and caused a riot. QANON are utterly insane…
You mean in the same way “racist” is used by the left to shut down and otherwise silence any dissent on (any) discussion or argument they can’t win? The left is not at all comfortable with any opposing views. If you can fix that problem the term “woke” might go away, or as I call it “wokey-woke.”
Rob I think he and others are on here to wind as many people up as he can. I think there may only be one using diff handles but just laugh at him he’s a clown.
I think you are right…sigh. I love this site and don’t want to get banned so i’m going silent for a bit. CHEERS!
Don’t worry about it. Best advice I ever got was ‘Don’t let the B……. get you down. 😀
Is Racist used by the Left to shut down discussion? I am not sure it is. I think some people do, just as some on the right claim that Black people are a different species. I would not claim that anything more than a small minority of Right wing voters claim Black people are a different species and I would also not claim that anything other than a small minority of Left wing voters use Racism as a way to shut down arguments.
Again though, you appear to be lumping everyone that stands against racism as being Left wing.
I will agree with you that the Far left are not comfortable with opposing views. However neither are the Far right. What makes one person “Woke” for caring about an issue while another person who cares equally put with opposing views on that issue are not? Surely that is a definition of being uncomfortable with opposing views?
Also exactly who do you consider as Woke? If I stand up for someone being racially abused am I woke? If I campaign for better air quality and action against climate change am I woke? If I want people to be vaccinated against Corona Virus am I woke?
100% Agree.
Morning Rob. Good post. It’s amazing how China gets away with what they do to their own citizens, their racist agenda and oh yes their two gender policy 😅 . If a War does start with the West though it will end in a Nuclear holocaust with no winners. It is sadly inevitable either by design,accident or miscalculation. Also, for what it’s worth we should let them know they are welcome to excercise their Right of Passage through the English Channel.
Just to make a point…
I totally agree Geoff. No one likes what china does to their own people and those poor Hong-Kongers, but the less unified we are the more of a juicy target we are. And we are terribly disunited and squabbling over if Mr. Potato Head has a penis or not. These trivialities will destroy us. In the States they are now eating their young with critical race theory. I’m no expert as I would never read that, but on the surface it does seem divisive and a reinforcement of political victimhood-we are owed something from society. If you have a god now might be a good time to pray.
Critical Race Theory is Divisive but no more so than the enforcement of teaching Creationism in many US schools or the refusal of the Republicans to accept some sort of Gun control.
We should all lean towards common sense more and discuss things with more critical reasoning. Unfortunately this does not suit politicians as they thrive on division.
There are more than two genders not just in the west, look up Two Spirit, Hijra and Fa’afafine to see examples from other cultures.
Are you suggesting that we should be more like an authoritarian regime? What’s the point then, I’m proud of this country and believe it should be defended for a lot of reasons including its democratic, tolerant values that respects minorities. Being woke is not incompatible with believing in a strong defence posture nor being willing to lose blood and treasure to protect the values we treasure. I also think it is utter rubbish to think that young people have no warrior ethos, they are arguably more passionate, aware and willing to do what it necessary to protect their beliefs than a lot of entitled boomers who have sacrificed very little compared to their forbears.
Also a reminder that many of the great military figures in history would be sexual minorities in modern society. For example Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Philip the Bold and Fredrick the Great all slept with men.
Nonsense to my ears – but if you believe it have at it. It’s a free country. You make a lot of sweeping statements and grouping of people, such as “boomers.” I assume you’ve met them all to assess many are “entitled?” I think there is a solid argument that the young people of today are the entitled ones. We all see it every day. I am not going to waste more time on this but in short, so-called diversity is NOT a strength. The only reason why the British prevailed in WWII is because they were not fractured and not diverse and not full of self loathing and self hatred. They shared common values, beliefs, culture. Your lot wishes to flush that foundation, that commonality down the toilet in favour of a mongrelized society with no common ethics, values, language etc. One need only see the no go areas in the UK now and other lines which are drawn by religion and race and class. I think you will lose this cultural revolution. If you do win, we are screwed.
You completely ignore historical fact. Many societies in history have acknowledged there is more than one gender and have I listed a number of powerful historical military leaders who in modern western culture would be described as gay or bi, all facts which you have not provided any evidence to counter.
You fail to provide any evidence that the ‘youth of today’ are weak and I suspect the war time generation probably said the same thing about your contemporaries when you’re we’re going.
As for a lack of diversity in the UK’s WWII war effort you have yet again completely ignored history. What about the hundreds of thousands Indian, West Indian, Nigerian, South African, Canadian, Australian, Free Polish, Kenyan, Ceylonese etc troops who fought and died for the British/Empire? Also the the rise of the black shirts in the 30s didn’t exactly seem to vindicate your perception of a united land?
Also the term ‘mongrelized society’ is racist and again you seem to be unaware of history. The Celts, Picts, Anglo Saxons, Huguenots Britons, Romans, Danes and Normans didn’t all sprout from the earth did they?
Also a little reminder that you brought up discussion on gender and minorities yet somehow twist it to say that people should stop going on about racism! Well why being up the topic then if you don’t expect a response? This isn’t an echo chamber! It’s a site where I think more people are interested about the number to F35s on board the carrier, or the Type 45’s engine troubles than your complaints that seem to denigrate this country, its values and a good chunk of its population. That seems to me like indulging in the politics of division and frankly does not appear very patriotic.
Britain won the war with Indian, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, etc etc along with help from people from occupied countries in Europe. Oh and a lot of help eventually from the US. After the war we then effectively tortured and killed the most brilliant man we had because he was gay…
Oh and if you think English is a pure and very British language then you are out of luck. English is made up of French, Latin, Scandinavian, Celtic, Old English and even Indian languages. It is a strong Language because of the diversity of its make up not because it is somehow pure… Our culture in Britain is also strong because of its diversity. Remember we are an island of immigrants from Europe and beyond and we always have been. Our strength comes from recognising this rather than some sort of insular view where we are some sort of super race.
Is this is the forum to be discussing “critical race theory, human sexuality, or whether ‘wokeness’ is a positive or negative? Maybe it is and I’m wrong but it seems there are lots of sites on the Net for that. Why not invite Rob over for a debate? Perhaps he might of ‘had it coming’ but you talk about a lack of respect and tolerance of others then mock him as an “entitled boomer.” Not to mention you “cherry pick” history for examples to support your position. That said, hope you gents can find some common ground and the majority of comments return to address the Carrier Strike Group.
As I said towards the end of my last post, Rob brought up this subject on a defence forum not me. This is not an echo chamber, therefore they should expect to be challenged on their views if they express them publicly. I have provided strong factual supporting evidence for many of my points which is more than they have done.
I’m inclined to agree. China’s made in China policy is one of the pieces of the puzzle. They will go after Taiwan at some point, US believe later this decade. They know they will be condemned followed by western sanctions but with a more insular economy (Made in China) and having bought allies like Iran for oil they can survive an economic onslaught. They’ve seen how we react to Russia in Ukraine and Georgia and their annexation of the SCS.
Yes. I do not want this outcome, and the only reason I draw political and cultural parallels between the West and China is to call out our weakness verses their strength. The first nuclear exchange is likely to be India and China, followed by the West. India and China are very close. Having just lost 20 + soldiers to hand to hand fighting, India is preparing for a larger conflict. We will be drawn into this. If it’s not India, it will be a conflict over China’s “9-dash carve up of the SCS.” or Taiwan which they have pledged to recover by any means necessary. China is bullying all of their neighbours from Malaysia to Vietnam to Philippines (Ph). If China has a fight with Ph then US is drawn in. If China attacks Taiwan, then Japan and US and you can imagine the West. Not looking good is it?
If all that happens it means Xi has lost his mind and someone or something ? The CCP ? will do what is necessary. There’s not much point bring the one party of a non existent state !
Perhaps that is why they are wanting to get involved in Afghan, pipeline for Iranian oil
Yes thats true, we should united against the Chinese Invaders.
Point of note i saw today, Crowsnest end of service life is 2030, think that is more a Merlin end of service date..
I think Merlin will go on for some years, as the Crowsnest carrying Merlins return to the ASW role. Where they should still be until cuts removed 849 NAS dedicated Sea Kings and lumbered the already too small Merlin force with the ASCS mission. The Crowsnest ASCS AEW role passes to a UAV Vixen derivative.
I see it as an opportunity to get more ASW helis in role not the loss of Merlin.
The Merlin’s service date has been extended by 10 years. We’ll be seeing them around for some time yet! Who knows what the future will look like, but it could well be UAVs in the ASW/AEW role, with the RN’s sole helicopter requirements falling to medium lift/attack/support.
How long did Sea Kings keep going for in their various guises?
As you say Merlin will be around for a long time yet
The first deliveries were in 1969, if I recall. The last airframes left service in 2018.
(Though I suspect it was more of a general observation as to their length of service rather than a question aimed at me!)
I Agree, but I think we need more of them. They are still making them for Poland right now so I can’t see why we can’t tag on 10 to that production. It would be cheaper than waiting until production has stopped… On top of that I can’t see why Merlin should not be considered strongly for the Puma Replacement. It still has to be one of the best Helicopters in the world right now. Especially if some tweaks were done to the design. I know they are working on increasing the power.
Re the Merlin. The RAF (and Army?) don’t like it, never wanted it & couldn’t wait to get shot of it. I think all along they wanted the Blackhawk rather than a troop carrying version of an expensive naval helicopter.
I personally would love to see more in RN/RM service. Particularly if they can get some similar to the Italian Ceasars for CSAR., infkight refueling prices & all.
https://www.google.com/search?q=italian.caesar+merlin&client=ms-android-samsung-gj-rev1&prmd=simvn&sxsrf=ALeKk02ok3Zji3p-vOY5uRrIfRGHwlGlGg:1627501202942&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjynsq4wobyAhWPTsAKHXu5CwIQ_AUoAnoECAIQAg&cshid=1627501245413&biw=384&bih=726#imgrc=MmYpmrGflBk_eM
I am not sure that is true. I think they were forced to give up the Merlins against their will. I have never seen anything factual about the RAF not wanting the Merlin. I have however seen comments from the RAF sad about losing it.
I believe the issues were its size & cost to operate. 3 engines was pricey & showed no real benefit over the Puma other than a third engine *handy at ses not such a worry over land) it’s footprint ws heading towards Chinook size while not carrying near s much & allegedly they found it too big fir urban operations. Petty much all along they wanted Blackhawk.
I’ve not proof of this mind you. Just comments on various blogs & forums Inc this page.
The RAF fought incredibly hard to keep a Helicopter they didn’t want if that is the case… I heard it was a godsend in Afghanistan where the extra power helped with the High and Hot conditions. The Merlin is not much bigger than a Blackhawk but can carry far more weight, troops and kit. It also has greater range and has the added security of the third engine (Which when you are getting shot at can be a nice thing to have). Compared to the Puma the Merlin is again not far off the same size but can carry far more, is faster and has a greater range.
I simply do not believe that the RAF did not want the Merlin.
Morning mate. Much as I understood it re Merlin.
Morning Daniele. At my PC in Durban at an unheard of 6 degrees C!!! Record lows here in SA. Cheers
Temps in the Low 40’s Deg C here ( Feels like 48 according to the forcast)…humidity is in the 60s which is the real killer.
No working in the open between 1100-1600 without a sunshade.
Hi Gunbuster-the humidity is the killer. Durban in Summer has very high Humiture with temps modified by the maritime effect but not as hot as the Middle East. A pleasant 23 degrees and dry here at lunchtime.It will be very interesting when the Carrier Group reaches the heart of the China Sea!!
Cheers
.
Morning geoff.
A comfortable 18 here, much better than the heater we were in.
Our main problem in the SE and London at the moment is torrential rain causing flash floods. A months worth in a day recently so i read.
Hi Daniele. As I see it climate and weather is cyclical but human related activities are another overlay, which on a balance of probabilities certainly is affecting our climate. Will be interesting to follow the Task Groups passage over the next few days!!
Yep, get used to much more extreme weather. Larger parts of the world are going to be unliveable in quite soon. There are going to be serious territorial disputes as large scale human migration takes hold.
It shouldn’t be too hard to convene an international conference that sorts out the competing claims to EEZ in the South China Sea, consistent with the terms of UNCLOS82. Of course, this would result in a massive loss of face for China, but that can’t be helped.
Already happened, “However in an historic decision in 2016, the international tribunal in The Hague ruled against part of China’s claims to the sea.” as the article states & widely reported at the time & since.
A case heard by the Permanent Court of Arbitration in the Hague is not an international conference. For some time China has been trying to impose a ‘Code of Conduct’ on the littoral states of the SCS in bilateral negotiations, meaning it is trying to pick them off one by one. A recent article in the South China Morning Post suggested China was failing in this attempt. This opens the way for multilateral negotiations, which China would almost certainly not attend.
China would have to agree to it. That is not going to happen. They are not asking the world for approval, they are just taking what they like.
I recall reading when HMS Albion sailed through the SCS she has harassed by the Chinese, My hopes is QE will meet up with a US CVN for a little extra protection.
Not so much as harassed as closely monitored. Of course, it depends on who writes the article. I have seen reports stating that both sides behaved with professionalism.
So hopefully the Chinese will be equally professional when the CSG sails through the SCS.
Cheers CR
As an Australian I understand the principle of keeping the South China Sea / Philippines Sea open! A UK aircraft fleet send s the correct message to Beijing. If we did a 9 dash line we would take the Coral Sea and the Indian Ocean as we have territories there! Congratulations to the UK sailors and airmen, the US planes……………….Australia has always stood with their allies in the good and bad times!
interesting
I take slight issue when referring to the CCP as China, mainly because you are falling into a propaganda trap when referring to the actions of the CCP as those of China, as the CCP will then use this as an example of Anti China hate, when in reality, it is against the actions of a genocidal dictatorship and not the people of China. Besides that, Best of luck lads, in full support of standing up to the CCP and its illegal activities in the SCS, wish action was taken sooner before they crippled the ecosystem, destroyed reefs and islands to make military bases but will be flying the jack in support none the less. Free China, Down with the CCP
Agreed. The biggest victims of the CCP are the Chinese peoples themselves. We must not allow the CCP to spread its oppression world wide.
Looks like a whole bunch of comments and mostly healthy debate on this subject has been deketed/ removed……thought police getting upset orxa technical glitch ?
https://www.ibtimes.com/british-carrier-strike-group-edge-south-china-sea-2-ships-be-deployed-permanently-3259775
The UN is a paper tiger, it can’t enforce its rulings, the South China Sea in the manchuria crisis all over again, the league of nations failed to act then and it caused the second World War by showing that the organisation had no bite and no way of enforcing its decisions.
The English Navy proberably under Capt James Cooke, mapped n charted those watter long afore the Chinks cudd get their Junks outta Harbour. Which is most likely why the seas all have British sounding names, reet or wrong?? Ian.
Seems we are backing down and going nowhere near the man-made islands, reported in the Guardian this a.m.
mint proud as punch civy ❤💪