HMS Duncan has arrived in the Gulf to support the safe passage of British-flagged ships through the Strait of Hormuz.
Freedom of navigation is crucial for the global trading system and world economy, and the British Government say it has committed to “doing all it can to defend it”.
Last week the Government confirmed that the Royal Navy has been tasked to accompany British-flagged ships through the Strait, to provide reassurance to the shipping industry.
Type 45 Destroyer HMS Duncan will work with Type 23 Frigate HMS Montrose until she comes off duty in late August, ensuring the continuous availability of ships to accompany merchant vessels.
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:
“Freedom of navigation in the Strait of Hormuz is vital not just to the UK, but also our international partners and allies. Merchant ships must be free to travel lawfully and trade safely, anywhere in the world. I’m pleased that HMS Duncan will continue HMS Montrose’s fine work in helping to secure this essential route.
While we continue to push for a diplomatic resolution that will make this possible again without military accompaniment, the Royal Navy will continue to provide a safeguard for UK vessels until this is the reality.”
Commander Tom Trent, the Commanding Officer of HMS Duncan, said:
“HMS Duncan has arrived in the Strait of Hormuz to continue the outstanding work to protect British maritime interests conducted by HMS Montrose and the United Kingdom Maritime Component Commander’s staff in Bahrain. HMS Duncan has shown the true flexibility of the Royal Navy by moving at pace to this area of operations.”
Am I right in saying this is not the type of ship best suited for this operation?
When you only have 19 hulls across 2 types it’s a case of needs must I think.
Actually, only 12 escorts are active…
I agree T45 is not best suited here, but with two 30mm guns and two 20mm CIWS, with several 12.7mm and 7.62mm mini-guns, and limited capability from a 114 mm gun, may be better than T23 which lacks CIWSs, I guess?
It seems the problem is this, a frigate(T23) which needs to go into refit, can take at least 2 years, then another 6 months testing. There are as many T23s waiting to be recrewed and have sea trials.
It seems that the problem the RN has, is that when a T23 frigate needs to go into a refit that can take at least 2 years to complete, then another 6 months for testing, before rejoining the fleet.
So the RN has as many T23s waiting for sea trials, as in refit! This problem needs to be fixed!
My apologies for posting a similar post earlier yesterday, because the earlier post had seemed to have disappeared, now it has reappeared?
This is very weird!
So is the problem recruitment? are the MOD not paying enough?
Good luck to Captain, officers and crew.
Do we know if the T45’s are carrying SeaCeptor these days as I believe this is able to take out small vessels and can be quad packed in the Sylver VLS.
With 48 silos that could be a game changer for the T45, giving it the ability to launch against multiple small vessels. 18 tubes would be a 72 Seaceptor load out leaving 30 tubes for Asters (10 x Aster 15 and 20 Aster 30)
That would be impressive and give the crew some confidence.
Ultimately these ships need upgraded with a 24 cell mk41 strike VLS, buts that’s another thing entirely…
Looks like the RN have chosen Martlet to strengthen defences against FAC. Makes sense as this will be fitted to Wildcat and I would think is a lot cheaper than Sea Ceptor.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/royal-navy-test-fires-ship-mounted-martlet-lightweight-multi-role-missile/
Would also be a worthwhile addition to the River 2 30mm.
Sea Ceptor is a short range, point defence SAM and was not built with a secondary ASuW capability like most American missiles are, neither were Aster 15 and 30. The missile also isn’t cleared for use in any of the Sylver VLS variants or the Type 45 in general.
Incorporating aSuw is an available option on Ceptor if required, of course. Still, in the current scenario, Martlet would be 1st choice. One gets the impression that Sea Ceptor has at least been satisfactorily gamed in that role by the RN, but I’ve not heard confirmation whether the software package has been subsequently funded.
Ben,
I believe the RN have already stated it does have that capability, hence my question. Additionally, it has a range equivalent or equal to an Aster 15 which in my opinion makes this missile redundant, fortunately an additional booster can upgrade the Aster 15 to 30 standard.
Thanks for information on it not being cleared, as that answers the question.
I do think Seaceptor needs to replace Aster15 as its a major improvement in volume and in this particular case the IRG train with hundreds of boats at a time, so we need some way of countering them.
What is the FFBNW mk41 reserved-space capacity? I get confused and have it in my head that I’ve variously read 12 or 16. I’m pretty sure that I’ve never read that the reserved space (currently used as a gym apparently) is enough for 24. If I’m right then, unless you’re proposing a hull stretch which is totally out of the question, I don’t think adding 24 cell strike-length mk41 is even possible without massive re-engineering.
Also I think it was Gunbuster who confirmed for us that the mk41 reserved space is between the bridge and the existing Sylver 50, i.e. where the Harpoon are hosted at the moment (please correct me if I’m mis-remembering Gunbuster). If I have got that right and if the FFBNW capacity is only 12 then, if the RN wants to maintain the same heavier anti-ship capability, 8 of the Mk41 would need to be loaded with a Harpoon replacement only leaving 4 Mk41 as genuine uplift in capacity. Admittedly it would give more flexibility as well since anti-ship load could be lessened in favour of more AAW stuff in the Mk41, and any uplift in capacity is better than none, but the cost-benefit in terms of what it would cost vs what it would deliver is probably dwarfed by so many other projects such that with all the other calls on the defence budget I’d be surprised if adding Mk41 to T45 even makes it to the top 100 list of unfunded initiatives that the MoD would like to implement.
(Unfunded initiatives to be read as including increasing numbers for existing programs e.g. extra River B2s, extra T31 or modest extra budget per T31 to make the 5 vessels already planned more capable, etc, etc, etc. There is just so much other stuff that could benefit from the extra budget.)
No, it’s immediately ahead of the aster silo with space to port and starboard available for 8 x full length missile tubes in each, thus 16. If the mk8 4.5 gun was replaced with the mk45 5.0 there would not be room, however.
> If the mk8 4.5 gun was replaced with the mk45 5.0 there would not be room, however.
Really? I though the Mk.45 127mm gun is more compact than Mk.8 114mm gun… (at least the turret is much more compact).
Thanks Gavin. So there would be a bit of topside restructuring to extend the Sylver bulwark forward towards the gun in order to include the Mk41s in the protected enclosure (http://www.seaforces.org/marint/Royal-Navy/Destroyer/D32-HMS-Daring_DAT/D32-HMS-Daring-018.jpg)
That would make quite a formidable vessel. It’s a real shame that the Mk41 didn’t get fitted at build when it would have been cheaper and now be a fait accompli but I still suspect that there are so many other projects competing for funding that it’s not going to happen.
Errr No its not…Ever been on or worked on a T45??
I have.#
The Mk 41 Gym is under the space for Harpoon, abaft the silo.
In addition a 5 inch gun would go in the same place as a 4.5 without additional space issues.
Thanks. Does that gym have a lot of headroom then because strike-length Mk41 have a pretty deep deck penetration don’t they?
Lots of head room. It’s the same height as the aster silo. It would need a similar structure as aster to build it up above the one deck level
No he hasn’t been on or worked on a T45
That’s why he asked ffs
Was aimed at GG… Comment won’t paste below the comment I was answering… Probably a mobile phone thing…
Hi Julian, should have looked this up earlier, its 16. Think we could find another placement for harpoon, but you make a valid set of points.
The key for me is giving this type a landstrike capability until T26 comes into play and enhancing an already world class platform further.
I do worry about all RN ship’s capability to defend themselves and actually win a firefight. 48 cells is not enough, unless they can be quad packed.
The T45s should’ve just used Mk41 VLS as its sole missile launcher. Having multiple brands of VLS on the same ship to me seems completely half-arsed. The beauty of the VLS concept is the flexibility of using a wide variety of missiles in the same launcher, where you can adjust the exact numbers depending on mission etc. It also means easier maintenance as you only have the one type to run…
Totally agree
And we are about to do it again with T26 for something with a lifespan of 25years you would imagine maximum flexibility of weapons load would be the no1 priority
Weapons don’t seem that important to the RN who would struggle to sink a corvette with any of their t class
And what happens if the US starts to restrict warpons for Mk. 41 VLS? Especially if the Democratics come to office! In the 1980’s the US did restrict warpons exported to UK, for use in Northern Ireland.
Better to upgrade 24 A50 cells to A70, which enable T45 to launch Aster 30NT, BMD and SCALP(Storm Shadow) Present version of Tomahawk has come to the end of production. MoD procured 900 Storm Shadows at end of nineties which could be converted to SCALP.
I would disagree with this. It would be bette to add the 16 mk41 cells that it is ffbnw. Then you have loads of choices available
Need T31 HMG!
Stop the silly re arranging of Deck Chairs by renaming Force Troop Command and shuffling their assets, and Joint Forces Command, which make NO difference whatsoever, and increase numbers where they are needed.
Right now that is the RN, and cheaper escort vessels.
Agreed
The short-sighted policy of only building six 45’s is starting to sting the RN. Had ten of these class-leading vessels been built they would have been the mainstay, of the new, ‘Global Britain.’
Do the MOD learn anything? No, is the answer, as they continue to dither over Type26 and Type31 frigate orders. In the future, the RN needs to consider retaining older warships in immediate reserve, as it did in the immediate post-war years, to ensure adequate vessels in times of crisis?
If we had built 10 then 4 would be uncrewed now. 6 is enough.
At the time of the Gulf War the MoD called up
civilians whom had serve in the Armed Forces, but had left within the past 5 years. I am sure ex armed forces personnel are still put on the reserve list to be call up, particularly personnel with specific skills?
I know it is not satisfactory, but as a last resort crises emergency measure, is it not the least bad thing to do in order to crew Britain’s warships.
Recalling would not happen. it was done in GW1 and the results where poor…
The call to me would go some thing like this
MOD: You have been recalled…
ME: Do one …Im an Expat and live abroad. Come and get me…
MOD: But we need you…
ME: Well pay me the same as I get now with the same conditions as my current job, Guarantee my employment with my current employer, Retrain me for a year so I get SQEP and get rid of Skill fade…
MOD: Errr…. No we cannot afford that
ME: Puts phone down…
Gunbuster, you raise a really good point and one missed by the politicians.
The military used to be a training ground for highly technical staff who would do their bit then move into a good job in civvy street. This actually helped with the social fabric of our country as we had disciplined and dependable people in key jobs.
Once you have done your time and moved on that is it and the reality is it is the governments duty to have the right balance of personnel at all times.
These softer elements are ignored or forgotten, but if the MOD wants to be an employer of choice that retains people it will need to change the way it deals with them. In the case of the RN this will need a lot more personnel just to give those serving a better work life balance and conditions.
A bit of a rant I am afraid…
I did just shy of 34 years with my last 14 years as a Charge Chief/WO2/WO1. I spent something like 65% of that time on ships with 70+% of that time away from my family and the UK.
I was lucky enough to get 3 foreign shore jobs …mostly because nobody else wanted to do them. That proved a wise move as it meant I was guaranteed time with my family who came with me. One of those drafts was to Hong Kong and to be honest made up for the first 22 years of grief and being away all the time.
When I decided to leave and put in my 12 months notice I was royally reamed by the RN with regards to leave and resettlement . I was told that they where doing me a favour letting me out 3 month early but the price was to forgo all leave outstanding and my resettlement entitlement.
You are a number pure and simple and the RN do not give a monkeys as long as they have bums on seats. If you leave and it doesn’t fit into their plan you are left to swing. I was even told by a very senior officer (2 *)that he couldn’t believe I had left the RN in the lurch going when I did as they had nobody in the training pipeline, which had a 18 month lead time, to do the job I was going to be drafted to.
How I laughed!
Now as a strawberry I do work long hours but I get well paid for it. I don’t pay tax (except in the UK on my military pension….dont even go there!) and I go home at night to the Missus.
I now fix ships from various navies and when onboard I despair at how bad the RN has become with regards to manpower and support. Its scary that I know more about systems and equipment than some of the people actually working on the ships. All the SNCO Engineers I have talked to are threaders with it as well and are looking to go.
Right rant over. Its 42 degs, work finishes in an hour, the pool is a lush 29 degs and I may have a beer whilst watching the match tonight…
Life is good!
Good on yer Gunbusters…
It’s funny how those who make the most money always try to emotionally blackmail and then shaft those that have done the right thing.
I couldn’t agree more with you, sadly it is the same across the UK, too much emphasis on cost and not enough on value…
Enjoy the match..
Sorry Gunbuster & all our servicemen, we treat all out vital staff as though we want them to quit or break down physically or mentally. Why do the most worthwhile professions get treated so badly?
A T45 may appear overkill for FPB/skiff protection, but if things went belly up we’d need our best there to face the extensive threats Iran can readily deploy right in it’s littoral, not poundland cannon fodder escorts.
Cheers!
Aré you sure this is correct? If you’re in the TA for example and called up OR do an s-type engagement, your job is guaranteed. Obviously your employer takes it into account that you are in the reserves before they make you a job offer.
If you are a reservist yes. If you are not a full reservist they can try to call you up for 5 years after you leave. As I said… I am now expat so good look with that. Anyway I am doing more good here as a strawberry fixing war canoes.
Don’t buy that one Geoffrey, you can always man ships in a crisis. Recruitment is an issue, however, it’s not necessarily manning, as the stability of employment in the face of constant defence cuts, is the main cause of the problem.
And we wold have 10 needing an engine change.
And where do we magic up crews to man these reserve ships? Having reserve fleets is a massive waste of money, especially if they are old vessels. More new ones is the answer, and more sailors.
The Type 26 should become the new mainstay with 8 for anti submarine, and 8 anti air based on the Type 26 to replace the 6 Type 45.
There are No plans to replace the T45 destroyers in the near future.
They most likely be replaced in the mid 2030s.
I think 9 Type 26(ASW) need to be procured to meet ‘the rule of 3’.
Strictly as a thought experiment, if HMG were able to instantly create a new class of vessel designed specifically do do the current task of protecting UK shipping in the gulf, presumably with the assumption that the Iranian Navy is the threat that is being defended against, what would people say is the minimum spec for such a class? Bear in mind that in this thought experiment cost-optimisation is an issue so it’s a matter of enough capability but not over-armed/equipped.
Would an existing River B2 be sufficient? An up-armed River B2 (and if so what level of up-arming)? How would the various T31 designs be considered in this context – just the right level of some capability? Might some or all of the T31 contenders be considered over-equipped? Might some (e.g. Leander) be considered under-equipped?
With various comments across many articles here about “wasting” high end assets on certain roles and on the other hand comments about significant up-arming or Rivers or unhappiness at seeing Rivers escorting Russian vessels through the English Channel I’m trying to calibrate my compass in terms of what the threat level is that Montrose & Duncan and finding themselves in at the moment and what is the minimum that is needed to be considered a credible response.
C-Sword 90 would be my choice.
And I will go further C-sword 90 is a valid choice for the T31 and should be built in large numbers.
If we could order 25 I wonder what the cost would be, maybe closer to the £250m specified. The key here is drumbeat – 1 per annum or 5 batches of 5.
Replace all the OPV’s and MCM fleet and replace with these and the necessary unmanned systems. Instant uplift in capability across the fleet.
I think a River B2, up-armed with a 57mm gun (or even two of them) with guided-rounds will be good solution here. A full kit of ESM/chaff/flare will also be needed.
– As the theater is small and land-based air-cover can be there, helicopter hangar is not needed. Land-based patrol air-crafts are much more efficient and effective than ship born helo.
– As the Hormuz strait is still in peace, and many merchant vessels are steaming around, any long-range engagement from RN asset is limited. And within visual range, “57mm gun with guided-rounds” will be the best solution. (*1)
– With the same reason, Iran cannot easily use its anti-ship missile, because these missile are “stupid”, cannot distinguish other (could be Russian or Chinese) ships from UK’s.
*1: With ALaMo, fast-boat swarm will be just a sitting duck, and with MAD-FIRES, the ship will have good AAW against sub-sonic anti-ship missiles.
If with “two” 57mm guns and with guided rounds, for example, the up-armed River B2 can have much better capability than T23 or T45 at “within visual range warfare”. Also, it is much more faster than T31e to make it happen.
Also, RN lack man-power. To operate T31e, RN must keep 3 or 4 T45 and T23s in extended readiness. But, if it is River B2, it needs less crew and it is also anyway manned. What RN need in addition is, just to incorporate increased crew number for up-arming.
But for the time being, these 57 mm guided-rounds are yet to come. So, maybe carrying three 30mm turrets, each with 5 LMM missiles will be a good answer, I guess.
#Although I might be wrong.
For me, River 2 Hull up engined for 35+ knots, 57mm gun with guided munitions, CiWS, 1 mk41 Exls quad packed for 12 seaceptor, ESM, 30mm and a new separate high capacity martlet launcher that can auto reload and cue multiple targets simultaneously. Each would get a camcopter with martlet launcher for over the horizon and Seavenom if possible but might be too heavy?
A small autonomous helicopter would allow the flight deck to be reduced to allow more space for the weapons systems and a small hanger for the camcopter.
To my mind, this would offer a truly credible littoral capability able to defend itself and take out drones, boats swarms and up to corvette size vessels. I would build ten and always have several with each of the planned littoral strike groups forward based. This number would allow us to surge around 5 or 6 at times like these to offer a real deterrent and cover a large area of water sufficiently. T31 would be sat behind them with the heavier stuff if needed and supporting with drones and helicopters. T45 and T26 wouldn’t be any where near this sort of action.
Swedish Visby. Why re-invent the wheel.
I’d say Khareef class or T31 with ATGW equipped marines to better deal with fast boats rather than installing specialised lightweight ASMs at massive costs.
But there are loads of FPBs & corvettes already in the Gulf belonging to our Gulf allies; maybe better to get them in on it rather than overstreching our tiny navy.
I’m just putting this out there so y’all don’t be getting all shirty with me but I don’t think Having a T45 for this role is somehow unsuitable or the wrong type of vessel for this role. It’s exactly the correct type of vessel as I’m sure HM gov have concluded. To secure and patrol against Iranian interference on the sea which undoubtedly will come in the form of small fast attack craft you need to be able to provide air cover. No use in having river sized up armed vessels able to stop speedboats if they have no serious ability in air defence. The Iranian airforce and all their land based anti ship missiles are right next door to this. So what guns does a river class T23 or a future Type 31 have that a T45 doesn’t? . Duncan has a nice large hangar able to accommodate 2 helicopters and plenty space for marines , a much more well rounded platform even without vls which it will get sooner or later but still a pointless system against small boats.
Really good point…
Fair comment, the little boats are not the real danger to your ships, the land based missiles are, and Iran has alot of them
If Iran fired a land based missile at a RN ship ,Iran could say good bye to most of its oil exports.
So could Saudi and Iraq Dave. Iran’s already lost much of its oil exports, only some to China and a little to us as payment
Well, best wish for new US president it being the democrats side then maybe there will be common sense on this Iran issue, of course democrats wont be good for a certain nation as Trump has been their useful idiot.
I have very low expectations from any US government Dave regardless which party is in and who is president, but I will miss trump when he goes, he is very entertaining, his art of the deal is particularly funny. We just have to be honest with ourselves, relationships between Russia/China/Iran plus whoever else decides to join and the US/UK (notice I excluded the EU) are not going to improve, this is the normal and we just need to move on. I am still going to enjoy our chats thought Dave, so don’t think I will desert you ?
lol I dont care if you reply or not Ulya , you are a Putin supporter so your agenda and misinfo needs to be Questioned ,if this website had a like button you will find your views are a minority . Excluded EU? what ever divides the west factions, if pushed it will come together as seen with the aftermath of the novichoks incident .Trump is perfect for Putin ,as I said ,things will start to get serious for US, Russian relations when the democrats have the power to hold Russias activities to account. x
Another consideration is the number of base facilities we have adjacent to Hormuz, both naval and RAF, and the fact that Oman controls the other side of the straits, and hence territorial waters therein, from Ras Musandam and the port of Khasab – which oftentimes hosts her own FPBs. The Iranians are reluctant to rile Quaboos, who’s an accomplished regional diplomat, and also a good friend to the UK overall. In addition, Type 45 controlling a couple of army Apaches wouldn’t come amiss in my view.
I can’t wondering what level of defensive action any of these ships would actually take if Iran decided to ignore the radioed warnings that would initially be made. Would they actually start a shooting war if the Iranians decided to mount a raid on another merchantman (after all the present one is only nominally British) under the noses of our warships, would they do anything beyond warning shots? Would they shoot down a helicopter with Iranian marines or blow a few of their boats out of the water to prevent a raid? I fear to think what the reaction would be, very possibly disastrous, certainly unless there was a unified front between Westetn nations which there is no sign of as things stand, unless it seems, we give in to Trumps demands regarding sanctions. As things stand the Yanks would be more than happy to see us lose a ship knowing it would put pressure on us and others to do just that and appear to prove Trumps view of the regime. Potential cannon fodder I’m afraid.
It’s a good question.
Might this be a time to start researching and investing more seriously in some non-lethal weapons system? Some of it sounded like science fiction During the Cold War, and much of it might indeed still be boy’s-own fantasy stuff (I really have no idea), but stuff like very low frequency sound waves is one that springs to mind.
Also some of the laser weapons being developed might, due to their greater precision and controllability, be good to field in a non-lethal capacity. For instance I would have thought that it would be potentially manageable by diplomacy and less likely to start an all out war if the response was to burn a hole in a RIB and rescue the wanna-be boarding party than opening up on the RIB and occupants with a 30mm cannon. (Helo assault admittedly more difficult to imagine a non-lethal or at least minimum-casualty response.)
Hopefully we will not have to find out what happens, I don’t think another ship will be taken for now, to me this was just tit for tat to keep the hard liners happy and take pressure of the moderates. It has been interesting to see America’s lack of support for the UK. With sanctions being put on Zarif by america there is little hope of serious talks so Iran will continue to slowly move away from the JCPOA limits trying to put pressure on the EU so I don’t see alot of support for you from them. Of course 1 silly move by either side could escalate things very quickly
Another tanker has been taken the following day from your post. Details still sketchy though.
Yes Frank, my office told me, Iraqi smuggling is what I’ve been told so far, not much more yet. Guess I’ll find out more when my flight arrives. In my original post I was meaning UK registered ships, what happens to Iraqi, UAE ships etc will be different to western ship
The Iranians would back down.
Prior to the T22 having its crew lifted the IRG tried it on with the RAN the year before. I was on a T23 up at the OPLATs at the time doing boarding’s on other vessels.
The Aussies where on a Tanker and the IRG turned up and threatened them. The Aussies told them to “go away”, pulled up the ladder and sat it out. A couple of Helos turned up with guns sticking out the side and the IRG turned around and left.
Rules of engaegment are quite clear for the Gulf and the CO has a bat phone back to Fleet HQ for immediate clearance and Guidance.
I won’t disagree with you any DD/FF is suitable. People get hung up on specific capability. All DD/FF can go General Purpose when needed
When this all kicked off their was only 6 UK flagged ships in the gulf, and they all left leaving only 1 and Iran has that one. So their shouldn’t be that many to look after now. Good to see Hms Duncan their though, would basing a destroyer in that region be a good idea?
Yeah probably a bad idea basing a type 45 in the gulf, type 31 should be picked and start building ASAP, they surely would be good for that region
But I’m afraid RN need to keep some T45/23 in extended readiness to man the T31e. Yes, two T31e can be manned by keeping 1 high-end escorts in extended readiness, this is good, but anyway it will decrease the number of high-end escorts, which is now only 12 active (“19” is just on paper).
I think everyone now realises the RN needs more people and more ships, its just a matter of time.
Same goes for the RAF, but less visible at this point in time to the political class.
I expect to see a major rebalance towards the RN of as many as 10k personnel. Probably 8k to RN and 2K to RM. This could be taken from the Army headcount initially as they cant recruit their quota at present.
Not going to happen overnight, but I do think it will happen.
Something like this would fit the bill. They could be tendered by the deployed Bay or by the USN’s seabases.
https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/finlands-hamina-class-missile-armed-fast-attack-craft-combines-stealth-with-firepower/
Cheers!
That’s a very interesting boat, I didn’t realise you could get that sort of weapons fit on a 250 tonne vessel! Why does it not look much smaller than a river b2 which is around 2000 tonne if I remember right?
Very good spot Helions,
Just goes to show you can have something inbetween.
Perhaps we should swap out our P200’s for these so that we have a bit of depth to our fleet.
Does anyone know the cost of these, as if these are £50m or less each that would be a reasonable choice and give us some options.
The words ‘Aluminum hull’ should send a shudder down the spine.
Possibly, but most naval ships have aluminium in them and the superstructure is stated as being composite.
I am sure this could be done fully composite and have a secondary role in MCM for the UK.
the Visby class is composite and the size is well within a composite hull envelope so shouldn’t be a real issue.
It’s an interesting product and one the UK should consider for its P2000 replacement as what can those realistically be used for?
At least this size and class of vessel could be deployed.
The key is what is offered as with all things RN, it would need to meet our specs.
Stunning any warship still uses aluminium after the falklands.
Trimaran LCS are all Ally. The Expeditionary fast cats are all ally. Lots of the upper deck structure on Arleighs is ally.
Not only does it offer poor structural integrity when subject to a fire without boundary cooling, but it cracks all the time. It’s a constant battle to weld it back up.
Right now they should invest a little to get marlet into service as soon as possible and the ship based one fitted to as many ships as possible.
I doubt the investment would be huge, but it would make a big uplift in capability against the type of threat we are likely need to counter/deter.
I’m picking up information now. I have been looking at warships operated by other navies. France has a large navy and many ships designed to guard its overseas islands. They may not be the best in terms of technology but they have guns etc. I think that the French navy seems far better equipped and balanced. Other navies have corvettes but there are none of these in the RN. As a lay person, it seems to me that more basic vessels are required. Not ships full of computers etc. I think they would me of more use in today’s world. I see the opponents in the Gulf are operating speed boats! Hardly the need for a multi million pound ship to combat them I should have thought?
Agreed T31 is perfect for this type of patrol/escort mission, should be well armed to defend itself and a fraction of the cost of T45 or T26, which should be focused on carrier escort or T31 support when needed.
5 are planned for 2023, although i am not sure what the long term plan is. But it would make sense to have a minimum of a dozen, if not more.
I find it a bit worrying that there is still very little info on Type 31. I hope it’s moving along double time. Hopefully UKDJ will be able to provide more info on the T31 in the near future.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-type-31e-frigate-candidates-compared/
Without being an expert, i would favour the Arrowhead design since it’s proven, offers flexibility to upgrade, and probably the best candidate to come in on time and within budget!
The Iranians have shore based missile launchers along the coast line which can be unleash against ships in the Straits.
Also many more FPBs, frigates, SAM systems, fighter & attack jets etc. If push came to shove we’d struggle even if it were possible to deploy every RN FFG/DDG. What real change is needed is the complete change in HMG thinking to see personnel increased & generously incentivised & the fleet expanded to where it can handle what’s thrown at it rather than cuts, cuts & more cuts, spin to give the illusion of a growing navy & crocodile tears at the predicament the forces are in.
So what? T31 is planned to be equipped with Sea Ceptor, and probably some Phalanx or equivalent.
Stopping civilian tankers on some BS inspection is one thing. But if Iran actually attacks Royal Navy ships with missiles, things will get very bad for Iran on many levels. Basically, Iran has no Navy or Airforce so its attacks are fairly limited in reach, whereas the Royal Navy can safely strike from range. Not to mention that the rest of the world would not tolerate Iran blocking the petrol flow so many countries are dependant on if hostilities broke out, not even China.
Futile. If Iran wishes, the British warship will be crushed to pieces by Iranian missiles. It’s not a threat to Iran, but an easy target. And Iran couldn’t care less about the consequences and repercussions, as they are already under the most severe sanctions.
According to savetheroyalnavy.org, six T23s and two T45s are in refit. That’s a ridiculous portion of the escort fleet unavailable at one time.
1: What is more important is the fact that, when the five T23 in LIFEX, still 1 T45 and 1 T23 is in extended readiness. This means it is the man-power shortage limiting the RN escort number, not the LIFEX itself.
2: Related but indepedent, is the fact that RN escort is now going with very reduced sea-going days. In 2010-2023, the “active escorts” were spending 180-220 days at sea per year, but nowadays it is 100-130 days (see ref). This means in addition to man-power, operation cost is significantly limiting the RN activity.
So, regardless of buying T31e or not, what RN must do NOW is to improve the operation cost (which is doable in months) to solve item-2, and then increase the man-power (which needs a decade or so) to solve item-1. With improved operational cost, it looks fairly easy to add another ~2 escorts ready to deploy (of course, after proper training) without any other investments in equipment.
ref:
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2018-10-10/177797/
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/waritten-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2018-09-03/169218/
1: What is more important is the fact that, when the five T23 in LIFEX, still 1 T45 and 1 T23 is in extended readiness. This means it is tha man-power shortage limiting the RN escort number, not the LIFEX itself.
2: Related but indepedent, is the fact that RN escort is now going with very reducded sea-going days. In 2010-2023, the active escorts were spending 180-220 days at sea per year, but nowadays it is 100-130 days (see ref). This means in addition to man-power, operation cost is significantly limiting the RN activity.
So, regardless of buying T31e or not, what RN must do now is to improve the operation cost (which is doable in months), and then increase the man-power (which needs a decade or so). With improved operational cost, it looks farily easy to add another 2 escort ready to deploy (of course, after proper training) without any other investmens in equipments.
ref:
written-question/Commons/2018-10-10/177797/
written-question/Commons/2018-09-03/169218/
#sorry if this is 2nd post.
Two refitted frigates are now waiting for their sea trials to start, Hms Lancaster and Hms Richmond,
which will take up to 6 Months to complete crew training, and testing.
The RN needs to find a way to reduce this testing and crew training period.
Never ever reduce training and set to work time. You pay for it in the end with poor efficiency, a poorly trained crew and a broken ship.
The old addage of train hard fight easy still stands.
It will take the crew 6 months to just get basically proficient in the ships systems.
The real work starts after trials and FOST when you are running around putting the stuff you have learntat FOST to use in the real world.
I was still learning stuff on every ship I served on even laterly as one of the system engineers doing the Weapons Engineering Warrant Officer job. There is always a new fuse to find, an isolation valve to uncover , a better way of maintaining something, new upgrades to learn about.
Thanks for this info Gunbuster!
So, Ideally more warships need to be procured to take account of the fact, of the ships in refit, sea trials and crew training.
Good luck to HMS Duncan serving in the gulf she well equipped for job ,
hopefully she has the martlett missiles fitted to her ds30m guns. The Iranians seem to have one concept for their first line of harassment and that is hundreds of fast attack boats.- The onboard helos and martlett armed ds30m mounts are essential to prevent an embarrassing situation whereby a first rate warship is overwhelmed by fast boats. Also hope Duncan has plenty of GPMGs and HMGs for the crew and Royal Marines onboard as well as some shoulder launched anti tank missiles/ anti aircraft guided missiles.
These warships need to be armed to the teeth in the face of Iranian aggression.
The part that gets me, is that the latest tanker to be seized was in Omani waters. What are Oman doing to prevent further seizures from happening? There has been no reporting on the Omanis stepping up patrols or diplomatic efforts to calm the situation.
Iran has blatantly seized another country’s vessel sailing in another country’s territory allegedly after hitting a fishing vessel. Does this give them the right to seize a vessel?
This may be exactly what Iran wants. They may well be trying to pull other regional countries into the spat in order to claim that they are under attack and therefore make it possible to start a war. It is entirely possible Oman wants to do something but has been talked out of it by Britain.
If with all this in the gulf & everywhere else, it just shows how important the Royal Navy is for this country but unfortunately how under resourced it is with the lack of available ships & manpower. This is a national disgrace more money needs to be allocated too the defense budget for all the armed services, a significant increase.