China has unveiled a new, advanced stealth aircraft.
Images and videos emerged on December 26, 2024, showcasing the aircraft in flight, accompanied by a Chengdu J-20S fighter. The mysterious aircraft’s design features a tailless configuration, with a diamond-shaped wing and an array of control surfaces, leading to speculation about its role in China’s evolving air fleet.
This new development is part of China’s ongoing push to develop next-generation combat aircraft. The aircraft’s size and unique aerodynamic design suggest it’s intended for long-range operations, with an emphasis on low observability and endurance.
The aircraft’s engines, fed by multiple intakes, appear to be positioned for optimal stealth and high-speed performance.
Unlike previous Chinese designs, this aircraft lacks traditional tail surfaces, a move that aligns with stealth-focused trends in Western military aviation, including the U.S. Air Force’s Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) initiative. The tailless design may help reduce radar cross-section and improve fuel efficiency, enhancing its capabilities for sustained high-speed flight.
However, it may come at the cost of manoeuvrability, with a reliance on advanced flight control systems to compensate for the lack of traditional tail control surfaces.
According to Justin Bronk, Senior Research Fellow at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), while the aircraft’s design is “fascinating,” it is likely part of China’s ongoing regional bomber/strike fighter development, rather than their sixth-generation fighter programme.
Fascinating that the PLAAF/CCP have chosen to fly this prototype in daylight now…
I’d be cautious about attributing it as China’s NGAD-equivalent 6th gen fighter though. I suspect more likely to be the 5th Gen regional bomber/strike fighter project sometimes called J/H-XX https://t.co/Jwv8Ka5kT4— Justin Bronk (@Justin_Br0nk) December 26, 2024
He cautioned that the aircraft might not match the performance expectations set by the U.S. NGAD, but it could represent a significant leap in China’s tactical airpower capabilities.
The presence of the J-20S chase plane suggests the new aircraft is undergoing rigorous testing.
There seems to be an intake on the top as well.
3 engines due to poor performance of Chinese jet engines. Air intakes on each side with top intake for middle engine.
Again, very little know but that’s what I also thought. Chinese engines are not know to be the best on market at all. And must also be a heavy aircraft for what engine rhey could get. Everyone seems to be jumping to a conclusion on a prototype that may not go into production.
I hope that the western technology is better, and that it’s not stealthy enough for our systems.
Three engines as well, suggests a very large range, high cruise speed (likely high supercruise), and large power generation capacity.
Shenyang reportedly tested their own sixth generation technology demonstrator recently. GCAP has to ready to face down these planes, with Britain or more likely with the JASDF. Either way, it’ll be interesting to see how it stacks up.
I agree but how many GCAP aircraft will we end up getting and when? As usual, we can expect that we will get only a handful that are years late….
Of course, no Western politicians will recognize an enhanced potential ChiCom threat, based upon emerging technologies, until it is too late to counter. 🤔☹️
Perhaps this will focus the mind of the incoming administration, threatening to annex the territory of two NATO members is perhaps the worst thing that can be done for western unity in the face of an existential threat posed by China. In a political environment like this is now very easy for China to pull away individual members and also justify its own actions in Taiwan by stating that Russia and the USA are also annexing their neighbours.
True. The latest threats made by Trump means we cannot trust USA, at all. France is not folles by any of thèse new developers. May be Denmark thought that spying on behalf of NSA would be enough to keep USA at bay. Look where they are now.
The latest Chinese plane, tailless, can be carrier based, will not be manouverable, is difficult to stabilise above Mach 1. Probably stealthy at a time where stealth is no longuet the goal… Very strange design. May be is is for a drone?
Given the very large input from the Japanese and how efficient their intelligence services are. I will be very surprised if they are not aware of this aircraft and GCAP being designed to counter China future aircraft and tech.
The entire western world will have been aware of this aircraft for some years. Chinese tech has a long way to go to match western aircraft. I’d be happy In a F15 against something like this.
The USAF disagrees, Chinese missile are longer range than US missiles and while their engines are not yet there, their radars are supposed to be very good.
USA as a very deep engineering problem. But let’s be honest, even if European engineers are better, we lack the raw numbers of engineers and techniciens. The importance given to softwares engineering is totally crazy, compared to the one needed to make all we really need. Like long range missiles… US is worst and I just don’t understand how such a poor allocation of resources let that happen. Greas?
USAF over hypes other countries to get extra money. They did the same with Russian tech and look how that turned out.
Vested interests always get in the way when it comes to politics and milliary posture.
No the 3 engines are due to the poor performance of Chinese engines, even compared to Russian ones. Ultimately they’ll hope to get it down to 2 engines.
Post ukraine war and the complete failure of all of russian high end tech, it’s hard to wonder how much these are just for show, especially as a lot of Chinese tech is based off russian/soviet designs.
China is not Russia, people really need to start focusing on that, Russia is a decaying nation of 150 million people with a GP of less than the UKs. It’s now incapable of building a warship above 5000 tons and takes a decade to build one of those, Chinas GDP is five times that of the UKs it’s got a population of 1.4 billion, it now controls around 55% of the entire world’s shipbuilding capacity or 260 times that of the U.S. and puts the equivalent of the Entire Royal Navy in the ocean every 18months..out building the USN by a staggering amount in everyday other than SSNs and carriers ( it now matches on carrier output)
China was using Russian tec 2 decades ago…now Russia is using Chinese tec.
This is a Novel design and set or research not just a knock off from a 40 year old soviet project or stolen tec..that needs to be taken seriously..
1.4 billion? That may be inflated. The true figure is somewhere between 900m to 1.2 billion. Also China’s GDP is not based on hard evidence. It is what the CCP says it is. Some estimates say it is half what the CCP claims.
We don’t know what Chinese tech is like. Their military has not been battle tested in half a century or so. It’s entirely possible it’s all for show and no actual capability. The leaks coming out about lack of fuel etc has further questioned that.
Like many dictatorships their military is trained for loyalty and the most loyal get promoted, rather than the most capable.
But then again it may not be. You don’t bet the future of your nation and the world on red. You assess the most likely worst case and mitigate your risks based on that.
This thing is a demonstrator for something much larger
This looks less like a fighter and more like a strike platform. Note the restricted rear cockpit view, the prioritising of stealth over manoeuvrability. This is a super large F35 role platform.
“unlikely 6th gen”, nobody knows what “6th gen” is.
I remember when “5th gen” included super-cruise.
Experts are fantastic.
And super manœuvrability..
Can the plane perform the mission it is meant for, or not. Why don’t we go back to what matters?
Because polictics. Its nice and easy to say our planes are a generation better than our opposition and make it sound like a big thing. If you start talking about actual performance differences then it becomes far more subjective, as we know the f35 for example isn’t as agile as the f15 for example, but that is a trade off for other capabilites.
I’m going to guess an advanced long range UCAV.
They flew a protype airframe. So what?
They have yet to build / steal the tech to make an advanced turbo jet, let alone a 6 th hen combined cycle.
Avionics. Sensors comms ., I would not get excited yet .
Does the engine matter anymore, outside how many missiles you can carry.
Modern air fights would be about how early your radar can identify the opposition and how long range your missiles are, rather than how fast or agile you are.
Not totally about the range of your missiles equally if not more important is the powered range of your missiles which is why many believe Meteor to be the most capable long range missile despite the fact its range is a good bit less than the very longest but it’s powered range is in excess of 70 miles due to its throttle-ability and that is vital in the terminal portion if it is still to have manouveriability to hit its manoeuvring target.
The engine matters massively. From the sound, to its EM emissions, heat, exhaust trail and construction. Using different materials in an engine can matter a great deal.
It matters because of fuel efficiency, max thrust, thermal efficiency.
Fuel efficiency means range , size of the plane, supercruise.
No supercruise means afterburners which means much higher heat signature,
Lower fuel efficiency means less room for internal weapons or a bigger plane which means larger visual signature .
Am I the only person who thinks it is very suspicious that the normally extremely secretive Chinese military have a prototype in full view, flying low and slow enough for bystanders with basic camera equipment can get a good look at it?
It is obviously a set up
It will be to send a message to trump i suspect.
It’s essentially called deterrent.
All nations have to balance not giving away their latest bit of power with the act of showing an enemy that they can tear them another one. For a Deterrent to work it must be:
Capable, credible and communicated. Credible and communicated require that you shove your capabilities in your enemies face..but there is a balance in that you don’t want to give to much away so you can have both strategic and tactical surprise if the deterrent fails.
For a very long time china has been secretive as hell about a lot of its developments but is more and more trying to communicate and show credible deterrence. You could take this in two ways..
1) it wants to stabilise the situation
2) it’s planning to do something that will seriously piss of the west and its trying to show why the west reacting would be a bad idea.
Personally I thing all evidence is that it’s number 2
China certainly have the advantage regarding the mix of command and capitalist economy.
Were the West would spend years procrastinating over funding and design, China simply cracks on, getting protoypes into the air years before the West can.
As you say Jonathan, they are off piste now, they aren’t simp copying Russian designs, they are way beyond that point now.
While they may still be some way from the West in high end defence technology terms, they are learning and advancing quickly..
It puts GCAP into razor sharp focus, no cost or corner cutting, it needs to be extremely capable and a clear over match for anything China can produce.
Or it has to be scrapped because Musk the ‘expert’ in defence technology doesn’t think them relevant. As for the Chinese economy they can call their system what they like but in reality it is looking seriously akin to classic National Socialist lines. And like it or not that is likely the most efficient way to be economically successful as long as decision making doesn’t become too centrist and monolithic. Politicians and vested interests taking priority or having tremendous influence to get votes and power isn’t the most efficient process for technology advancement and Boeing is a typical example of how cosy and inefficient or indeed competitive capitalism can get when that sort of influence takes precedence over actual technical competence and efficiency.
I think the Chinese take their military very seriously and as they are becoming more tech savvy each year. They can likely get the best brains working on multiple projects. I am distraught at the stupidity of the dumbing down of education as Labour is set upon. This is not what gets you ahead or sees you through the crises we face down the road. We need engineers and fewer studying PPE or the arts. The left used to boast they were the ‘brights’; not anymore; they are fast growing fogged up, if you ask my opinion. I see all kinds of students and the Chinese are good.
You could see this aircraft performing deep penetration over the pacific targeting tankers an AWACS. Hopefully the US gets E7 into the fleet quickly because I can’t see the radar on E3 being very effective.
Such a regional strike aircraft is probably a much bigger deal for China than a strategic bomber would be.
The US already flew an NGAD prototype several years ago so it’s not like China is ahead and we are suppose to be flying one in 2027 but they have certainly caught up in many regards, this is a significant improvement over J20 for sure.
Hopefully this focuses the incoming administration mind to stop pissing off its Allie’s in pointless trade wars and online trolling. Its interesting trump has attacked the EU Denmark Canada Mexico and Panama but made no comments on China Russia or Iran.
Doesn’t bode well for the future of the US lead western coalition.
Awacs will not be replaced. Since missiles outrange the détection range of Awacs and airborn laser don’t work, I don’t see why we should field one Awacs. The F35 is able to merge data from all cloud participants. Same with Rafale F5. More and more drones, far less costly are to be inducted. They will convey active and passive sensor, providing a far more résiliant view of the airspace. A large central node is like 4G in Telco Ran. Dicentralized collect and compute is more what you can see in 5G Network, with slice, intelligent contrôleur, data sharing and load balancing. I don’t see why we should reproduce an outdated architecture, except if we are not fully engaged.
The E3 AWACS in the US is going to be replaced by the E7 Wedgetail, as per the UK and NATO. No idea what France will do to replace their E3s?
The MESA radar on the E7 can and will detect the launch of something like the R37, even if it’s launched from the Su57. The Wedgetail should be able to detect the missile around 200 miles (320km) away. Even though the missile cruises at Mach5+. The Wedgetail still has time to evade and deploy countermeasures.
However, the Wedgetail will not be operating on its own. It will have its own protective CAP. Which will be sent to intercept the Su57. There is a key parameter that people forget about with BVRAAM engagements. Which is the mid-course updates. These are t done only the once. For something like over 200 miles, there will be lots of updates. Which means the Su57 will have to operate its radar actively. To find and locate the Wedgetail. I’m not sure if the Su57 has the capability of the F35, to operate in pairs and triangulate emissions to find the range and bearing to a target?
Regardless, the Wedgetail will detect the Su57 transmitting its radar. It will also detect the Su57 giving mid course updates. As it has to shadow the Wedgetail to keep it located. This will be enough to vector the CAP to the area. As soon as they go active in trying to lock up the Su57, it will turn tail and run. Therefore the R37 won’t be getting anymore updates and has to find the Wedgetail on its own.
Which begs the question of how good is the radar on the R37. Can it detect the MESA radar passively? Has it the range to detect the detail after it’s flown to a new location? How good is its electronic counter-counter measures?
The biggest advantage the Wedgetail has is its L-band (1 to 2GHz) AESA radar. At these frequencies it uses the resonance effect on targets to detect them further away. But also because it’s a relatively low band radar, it has a significantly longer detection range that what can be put on a drone. For example you would need between 3 and 4 drones operating with an X-band radar to cover the same surface area. However, the distance between what can be detected and the transmitter is a lot closer, compared to the Wedgetail. For example a drone based AEW using an X-band radar will not detect the Su57 before it can get in a position to launch, whilst the Wedgetail can! The drone will only see the missile coming.
Sadly to operate a L-band radar like MESA you need a pretty large aircraft not only to physically carry the large antenna array. But which also has the electrical generating capacity to power it. That’s not to say you couldn’t turn something like the Wedgetail in a drone.
Very true, it’s madness attacking and threatening those you need over those who are very prospective enemies. Foolish for the US to think it can survive alone but when you start ludicrous self serving hype it can end up serving others in most unpredictable ways that you lose control of. To be so blind to that is beyond comprehension but is suggestive of being totally absorbed by personal power. Let’s hope a Putin truly doesn’t have the KGB era damning evidence over Trump that many believe. Trump only respects the power and otherwise finds useful the sycophants for personal exploitation. Sadly Britain is in danger of being deeply into that second characterisation and Farage just wants to be head Quisling in his own little fiefdom.
Likely a X-plane:
Unless we see a few more turn up in the next 2-3 years, which would indicate a prototype, this is more likley just an experimental plane (like the US X-plane programs that are often a single plane or two with the bare minimum of systems). They are likely trying to study how potential 6 gen air shapes would work. As noted, it resembles a lot of 6th gen aircraft designs that have floated in various public media for the past 15 years which may not actually be anything like what a real 6th gen will look like. Just remember what alll the designs in public media of what a stealth jet would looked like in the 1980’s before the US finally showed the already in service F117 to the public. They were all completely wrong. And in fact the Y-22 (to become the F-22) and Y-23 didn’t look like any of them either.
We know the US is very keep on a tailless design because it can reduce resonance and make it harder for low frequency radar to detect an aircraft. This aircraft looks very similar to everything we have heard about NGAD. The UK seems to value high manuverability over low frequency stealth which is why Tempest appears to use a diamond tail configuration similar to the YF23. (A but like that riffled gun on the challenger that everyone said was useless and is currently smashing up bunkers all over Ukraine)
Personally for a main front line fighter I think the UK is correct. Stealth will always be countered over time by new sensors and if a stealth platform can be dettected and is not manuverable then it will be headed for the scrap heap much like the F117.
I’m sure the marketing department at Lockheed will have a different story to tell however, if they ever get funding for NGAD. Given Elons views on the F35 I’m not sure of the current administration will be prepared to sink a few hundred billion into an F22 style boondoggle but who knows, maybe he will cancel the USAF Sentinal program instead.
“ A but like that riffled gun on the challenger that everyone said was useless and is currently smashing up bunkers all over Ukraine”
Yes, dubbed the sniping tank.
Not such a bad moniker to have given they have tested it against all the others!
Yes we tend to think the British only solutions are wrong because German and the USA don’t use them but the British military is one of the most experienced in the world and there is often sense in the madness. Tanks have rarely been used to kill other tanks but direct fire support is vital. As laser pig says snipper rifles are riffled for a reason.
Even if Elon gets his way F35 will be kept alive by LM and the export partners.
If LM don’t support F35 then they can kiss goodbye to ever selling anything to anyone ever again.
That said if you have ever driven his cars they are glorified hobby quality products. They haven’t mastered the basics of car making before hoofing off after a lot of very good ideas. The Tesla X I had, from new, was a disaster. The Y I have now is much better but it still has strange things….
I agree, for luxury cars Tesla’s always felt like an ikea car. Elon Musk not so good at the making of things, very good a hype excluding Falcon 9. The only thing he is really good at selling is massively over priced shares.
Spot on Jim this man is certainly part genius but that part is mostly a genius in selling snake oil and enthusing sci-fi fan boys who want to believe everything that comes out of his mouth. I suspect we will colonise Mars eventually and a manned mission there may even be a reasonable ambition but seriously his plans (in reality speculations based on fluff) for colonising are ludicrous with the present state of technology. The cost would bankrupt the US State and he admits himself no venture capitalist could present an argument to finance it. Yet he calls those (including serious scientists far more knowledgable that he) who point out the basic deficiencies in his nebulous smoke and mirrors vision ‘fools’, without any explanation or evidence whatsoever to contradict their arguments beyond the insipid ‘they don’t get it’ meme.
I do admire him for Falcon 9 even if it was early on one more failure from bankrupting the company and its good to have people willing to bet all on pushing the boundaries and proving naysayers wrong but he is well into his self serving delusional phase now and giving him free reign to exercise it especially by an equally self serving egotist showman who wants to exploit the reflected glory for his MAGA illusion is scarily dangerous and becoming all to like a remake of Kubrick’s Dr Strangelove. Though worryingly the President was essentially sane in that one.
With over 1,000 F35s delivered, Lockheed Martin isn’t going to walk away from the money to be made servicing them and selling more to foreign air forces.
Trump has put Musk at joint head of an office that doesn’t exist, has no budget, and no jurisdiction. Trump isn’t going to give him any real power to do anything, and Musk is just too busy anyway with all his business interests.
Agree LM would commercially support the ones built and happily continue to make more for exports.
Don’t under estimate Musk’s lust for political power and glory, indeed he has changed from long time Democrat voter to Trump purely to protect his business interests, Trump being anti electric cars was going to dump the very profitable schemes that kept his company afloat. Musk sabotaged the Republican sponsored Finance Bill by his X rant hours before Trump condemned the same Bill (though as I say elsewhere Trump wanted greater borrowing powers where Musk condemned the overspend inherent in it so hardly the same hymn sheet). Something will have to give here eventually whatever the wish from each to use the other for personal gain. These are both power crazed men and now Musk has a taste for power I can’t see him willingly relaxing it it could get bloody when a Trump sees him as more a threat than an asset and I suspect May in desperation feed him the rope to destroy himself. What damage that does is anyone’s guess.
Agree on the Tesla front, I now don’t really rated them, pretty crappy all round cars to be honest ..they were great ambassadors but really have been sitting on a “first to market practical long distance electric cars” Pedestal. I personally at present I think the best electric car manufacturer by a county mile is Kia/Hyundai by a mile..mainly because they got serious look at what makes a good car and not fall down fad like rabbit holes…the EV6 and ioniq are seriously good cars.
I agree the Kia cars, once a near laughing stock are getting seriously good in all aspects. Fact is Tesla without US Govt protection and subsidy will struggle to compete in the long run whatever the hype. The hype is similar for Optimus, the idea his robots will dominate is just another MAGA type myth in the making. It’s all eye catching stylish tricks that’s his great skill set in reality over the substance he likes to push. Others are doing as much or more without all the hype of orchestrated robot barmen supposedly feeding people drinks or dancing when nearly all of it is purely tele operation by humans I guess the Musk dad dancing should give it away. Meanwhile Boston Dynamics are using their latest robots to independently sought items in a factory setting without any tele promoting and others excelling in demonstrations we are yet to see from Tesla, it’s always as with Starship tomorrow with them. Like it or not most robots will be Asian origin just as most electric cars are now whatever Tesla started way back. But reading US media you would think it’s all Teslabots that will dominate and Tesla cars leading the World. As I say Musk needs politics to support him if he is going to maintain any competing survival let alone edge and I fear that may haunt him into his space ambitions too. If his self serving plans damage Artemis and allow China to land back on the Moon first all that Yankee love is going to turn very quickly esp if Trump uses it to knife him for damaging brand MAGA.
We have already seen Republicans lawmakers dig in heels when they see their own positions threatened by Musk and Trump who ironically gave the same message about thwarting the finance bill from totally opposite stand points which doesn’t bode well for their ‘unified’ front. There is no way that they will play dumb when it comes to thousands of jobs and income to the areas the represent be it F-35 or the endangered SLS which is built in Saturn 5 facilities in predominantly Republican heartlands. So the Trump Musk show will have to get into tyrant territory to do much of what one or the other would like to force through and the people having been fed the myth of jobs and lower living costs are soon going to rebel if that reality takes place.
This is absolute rubbish. Why do you continually ruin perfectly good threads with speculative, uninformed bullshit like this?
Sorry I believe this debate is above your knowledge level, best you find something else to read.
I suspect the uk design is more about lack of technological knowledge (US has the f22 and f35 knowledge, uk has typhoon) and cost, than actual performance. Whilst the US will be going all out on best capability, like it did with the f22. As such I wouldn’t put much stock on official statements on why certain decisions were made, as official statements never admit it was for cost reasons.
@Steve
Lack of sovereign control of the software timeline to production and weapons integration would be a few good reasons why not buying stateside makes sense….
China has F22 and F35 knowledge – it stole most of what it needed.
You obviously don’t know that BAE has full access to F35 – the rear fuselage of every F35 is manufactured by BAE in Lancashire.
@Spock, you are entirely correct. BAe possesses the requisite knowledge to advance towards the development of its sixth-generation aircraft in collaboration with Italy and Japan. These partner nations have made significant contributions through their research and development efforts. The expertise at Warton has been integral, as every part of the aircraft is on the site for the production o BAe’s parts of the F-35. Lockheed Martin has effectively brought British engineers up to speed regarding the British contributions, which account for approximately 15 percent of the project. Additionally, the Turkish involvement was shared between RLC/BAe and Lockheed Martin following Turkey’s expulsion from the program by the United States.
Indeed Bae got its place inside of the F-35 project because of its expertise partly in V/Stol (gaining future entry was at the cost of the ‘Big Wing’ Harrier programme) but also its advanced work in Replica which again was fed into the F-35 programme. Much of what is now being fed into Tempest comes from all that work carried out on Replica and of course the drone projects and what has further learned on F-35 so the expertise along with the Japanese (their F-1 was very advanced in some ways for the time) and the Italians who have a long tradition of pioneering aeronautical expertise which is still strong in certain areas. So yes the expertise is there a lot will be determined by the budget but US programmes themselves have budgetary issues and effectively supporting two platforms may well become problematical while though their aircraft have generally been good platforms they are not always the best usually it’s deeper integration more widely that give them the edge. The F-22 was the one platform that undeniably was technically superior in its time but as we know it was so problematical, unreliable and expensive it was cut short and with available airframe availability pretty awful. The F-16 was never that good an aircraft, itself had a terrible reputation in its early years (that comes from an experienced F-16 pilot by the way) was never really updated the way to exploit its potential and is probably the weakest of the Gen 4/4.5 fighters in operation. F-15 was and still is a good platform and indeed probably their best over the more recent decades but the Tomcat though a good aircraft was simply too costly to maintain and arguably none of these were better than equivalent Soviet aircraft of the time as an aircraft though overall better in most of their electronics though not all. The way the US aircraft industry is structured means they rarely meet their true potential in the end result for one reason or another.
It’s also worth noting BAE has designed other fifth generation aircraft particularly for Turkey but it also played some role in avionics for the KF21.
The company easily has the best track record outside of Lockheed Martin and Northrop for stealth aircraft programs in production.
We do have knowledge of stealth – however, we did not have the will power to develop it as it was costly (we had test vehicles 20 years ago). Do not underestimate the UK’s ability to create advanced technology. UK designers and scientists have been involved in many ‘US Eyes’ only systems.
We should remember the whole wave rider concepts that support hypersonic glide vehicles was from British research ‘borrowed’ by the Americans from the 60s onwards. Many other examples of this including even rocket engine technology, indeed many of our engineers transferred to the Saturn 5 and moon landing projects when uk rocket projects were cancelled, a few in senior roles.
Britian, Japan and Italy has plenty of technical knowledge. Just because the Typhoon was not a 100% stealth jet does not mean the engineers behind it do not know what they are doing.
Try looking up Tanarus , Storm Shadow , Type 26 frigate to name several projects with heavy stealth influence. The Vulcan bomber had to run with a radar enhancer .
Point of fact it is actually a Russian physist who invented stealth but didn’t realise it, he published a paper on electromagnetic theory without realising it had implications on mathematically calculating the rcs of an object.
Typhoon is not a stealth jet but it’s a far bigger commercial success than F22 and a much more versatile platform that will be in service decades after F22. Through its career typhoon has always been capable of intercepting any potential enemy aircraft and anything other than F22 and now F35.
F22 was in many ways a giant waste of money that has crippled the USAF in many regards. Not that it’s not an amazing aircraft there are just so few of them and it’s been nearly impossible to update.
But every military capability is alway heading for the scrape heap. The dreadnoughts had a life of 20 years before they were hard counted by naval aviation..most people say W2 was the death of the dreadnought but in reality the naval aviation tactics and capabilities were being developed in the 1920s and perfected in the 30s.
In the modern world there is very little that lasts more than a generation before replacement. That has gradually sped up. Take infantry personal arms as an example. The Gladius in its three patterns was used as an issue weapon for around 600 years. The brown Bess for around 130 years, the Lee Enfield 62 years the SLR for 40 years.
“Stealth will always be countered over time by new sensors and if a stealth platform can be dettected and is not manuverable then it will be headed for the scrap heap much like the F117”
Every weapon has counters over time, some more easily countered than others. Based on the increasing procurement of stealth platforms by the leading militaries over the past decades, stealth clearly isn’t easily countered despite what our French commentators and others might think. Furthermore, the counter to highly maneuverable less stealthy aircraft is to detect them first, beyond visual range ideally and they’re basically dead.
Speed and range are safer options. The rest is ammunition range, active and passive sensor and # of plateformes. This is 6th gen.
In my non expert opinion, I think a balance of all those qualities would be the ideal solution.
@Jim just as an interesting aside, I have seen imagery on YouTube recently on a couple occasions now whereby the cranked tailplane like that of the YF-23 and now Tempest (at least latest images of it) actually flattens to horizontal so that there is no vertical projection at all to it. Now I have no idea the whys or where these animations derive from it’s purely incidental to the more general content in the videos. I am not aware the YF-23 did it so why has someone created imagery of such a functioning pivoting tailplane, it intrigued me. Anyway it simply got me thinking it might actually represent the best of both worlds. In cruise mode you effectively operate as a tailless fighter in maximum stealth mode but as and when you engage or need further manoeuvrability they flip up to whatever angle the YF-23 or Tempest shows them to be to give you superior control when needed without the need for all the compensating thrust vectoring or concealed flaps (those Chinese ones look complicated). Obviously there are complications to consider here but as the angle change isn’t that great I do wonder how feasible it would be as long as the mechanism to achieve this doesn’t lose any stealth advantage you might gain by flattening your cranked tailplane in this way.
Obviously the YF-23 configuration was a compromise between stealth and manoeuvrability but the reality was that it had superior stealth to the YF-22 (deeper engine location as a result of not having thrust vectoring helped here too) while in reality wasn’t much less manoeuvrable despite that lack of thrust vectoring, so that is undoubtedly a great base compromise configuration even without the capability I refer to above. In the end superior design were Trumped by politics and eye catching if unrepresentative aerial displays.
I cannot see them showing the actual design theory to the world. Its good enough to let them think the Tempest is going to be a carbon copy of the F22.
One thing to keep in mind are the forces at play. If the tail plane is an all moving (left/right) one piece structure and you’re moving it from the horizontal to say +45 degrees. You have now introduced two forces to contend with. The first is the movement from the horizontal and the second is the twisting required for the flight control.
The structure that controls the two movements will have to be pretty beefy to contain these forces. But also bear in mind that if the aircraft is flown supersonically. The forces felt by the tail plane will be exponentially greater than when subsonic. Additionally will the aircraft be expected to perform aerobatics?
The idea of a variable incidence tail plane is not new. A number of prototype aircraft have trialled it out. But found the forces too extreme for the then materials used. Which has shelved its use.
In theory hiding the fin/elevator behind the main wing, will significantly reduce the aircraft’s frontal radar cross section. How close the fin/elevator is to the trailing edge of the main wing will determine the aerodynamic efficiency. If you get the gap wrong the generated vortices can hit the leading edge and either destroy the lift over the fin/elevator and create significant drag. Or it can interact with the fin/elevator in an unexpected way. Especially when supersonic and shock waves are created.
Unless you use Piff-Paff for manoeuvre blown edge is quite limited and doesn’t really work well over Mach 1 as the control forces are not enough for the negative stability that is required for a high Mach high G plane.
If you want to make a super stealthy aircraft then going above Mach 1 is a terrible idea. Sound detection worked in the 1930’s. Today they can easily tack sonic booms even using seismographs.
Agreed you can track sonic booms. But a lot will depend on the height of the aircraft above the ground. As the “boom” effect gets weaker the higher the aircraft.
Yes, an F35 will usually be below Mach 1 but can accelerate to Mach 1.8(ish) to get out of the way if it needs to.
Problem with this is that it can’t accelerate or pull high G so is a sitting duck once it us picked up and has to rely on DAS and other hard/soft kill.
6th Gen fighter!! more likely 5th gen strike aircraft, China has major issues with engine manufacturing and the stealth work is likely the stolen F35 data a few years back. I can see Donald Trump revealing the USAF 6th Gen fighter that flew a few years back, if you look at the so called leaked reports over the years China is far more interested in bombers and reconnaissance platforms-id be more worried about them.
Good pint, I can see the Donal doing a whole bunch of unveilings, I’m amazed he hasnt jumped on the UFO bandwagon as a well.
Well last time he ordered an opening up of what the military and political bodies knew about UFOs so in a sense he already has.
Just something else HMG won’t take any notice off 😴
This new Chinese aircraft is still a prototype. Its designation is the J-36, this number is listed on the aircraft fuselage. This could be its first flight as its undercarriage is still down and its being chased by a two-seater version of the J-20, which is a new version of an existing Chinese fighter. This aircraft uses three engines, two F22 style intakes in the fuselage. These sit on either side of 4 long weapons bays. The third engine intake is onto of the fuselage and it’s wider, similar in design to the B2. Top intakes are better as they avoid ground-based radars. The overall design is suitable for high mach numbers. Considering the size of this new aircraft is a lot larger than the J-20, which is already a big aircraft. This new platform looks to have a wingspan of 18 to 20metres. This aircraft also features side panel radar emitters, so is similar in design to the SU-57. This aircraft could be a new regional strike aircraft or long-range multirole combat/drone control aircraft. Engineers may have optimised the third engine for high Mach speeds. Lockheed propose the FB22 in a similar role. The second design that flew on the 22nd is the Chinese new 6th Gen fighter. That’s a lot more interesting.
it’s a message for the West, simple, the West is losing ground, and the West must move faster in these major programs and in greater quantities!
I think this is reallly important as a red flag for western powers to start waking up give the coffee a sniff ..this a nation that 25 years agos was building old knock of soviet designs, 10 years ago was stealing and knocking off western tec and is now doing novel RD on uptodate tec… linked into a massive industrial base that in key areas is growing hugely ( ship building is now 260 times bigger than the US and for the two pacific powers thats massive) a population of 1.5 billion and the second largest economy on the planet, China is a very very big threat and the only advantage the west has is tec and allies..both of which are being narrowed down.
The west has 1 billion people and the best tech, younger demographics and access to global basing and all the resources on planet earth. Big question is can the west hold it together when its biggest member is currently led by an absolute tool that’s just threatened to annex three peaceful countries.
That’s the Allies question, the wests biggest strength is in alliances, chinas biggest weakness is its lack of allies…but the west is beginning to squander its alliances and china is using one of its strength ( political warfare) to damage those alliances as much as possible. China is also starting to develop more acumen in development of its own alliance block.
Spot on Johnathan how they must laugh at an idiot actively undermining his Country’s strongest advantage, a unified block of like minded allies working together even when there are disagreements along the way. This is the whole problem with the MAGA myth, he has to fool his supporters and enough of the population into believing America is or will become so great it can take on the World on its own and thus milk and exploit everyone else to achieve and maintain it. The future for the World will no doubt depend on when an how the US people discover the underlying lie inherent in that chest beating bs and what follows thereafter. What has inspired it is the great fear of failure now so the reality of that concept later after all the promises is scary to imagine down the line which means the only real way to hold it together would be by a centralised Tyrant and suppressing of democracy something I’m sure he admires in Putin and even China which increasingly a National Socialist State these days whatever it calls itself and thus a regime that would very much appeal to Trump and probably Musk if rebranded along the way.
The actually launched two prototypes, each with a different role. Do not underestimate the Chinese – their advance in technology over the last ten years has been scarily impressive. Compare their stealth aircraft with Russian equivalents!! They have combined the best of east and west, but their engine and computer technology still lag the west, but not for long.
This test flight took place on Mao’s birthday and to claim a first flight for a 6th generation fighter (whatever that means). It’s probably better described as the CCP’s 6th generation fighter. While China may have peaked economically, it has not peaked militarily. No disrespect to our US friends, but they look like a disaster zone. They can’t even design a new naval destroyer. The Chinese have many smart engineers, plus they have learned much from Tesla about scale and cost reduction. We are producing King Tigers. They are knocking out 100’s of Shermans.
That’s a pretty apt comparison and in regards to quality over quality, you need a level of mass to create quality. Without mass you cannot practice, give time for training and to become high quality.
Certainly true in the naval sphere but the US still has a clear advantage in the air and under sea.
Partly true about the learning but if sothey learned so fast as did the South Koreans that they are churning out electric vehicles at a rate and cost Tesla in its protected subsidised environment can only dream of despite the hype.
The amount of smoke that came out of the back of the thing at level flight suggests the only technology needed to find it is not advanced radar, but the other side’s eyes. Sealthy to radar? Trail seen by an opposing fighter jet’s camera system from tens of miles away.
I have seen Indian websites and TV reporters losing it after this was posted on X.
Well to be brutally frank I’m not surprised, as India talk the talk, but usually fail to deliver. Consider the HAL Tejas, originally started in the 1980’s and is only now being integrated with missile weapons. India have similar aircraft projects that looked good on paper but never came to anything.
India and China have been belligerents since the end of WW2. But it is recently within the last 10 years, that China has overtaken India technically with new military hardware. Both countries fly variants of the Su30. But China has also introduced the J20 and will soon have the J35 coming into service, both stealthy 5th gen aircraft. Whereas India currently don’t have an equivalent. A derivative of the PAK-FA was supposed to have been their answer, but that got canned. As Sukhoi wouldn’t transfer certain technologies as part of the deal.
India has recently purchased a load of Rafales, which may help to balance the gap. But Rafale is not a 5th gen aircraft. I’m not certain that the deal included Meteor. As the UK has vetoed the sale of Meteors to India in the past.
India do have a non European and US option, with either the Turkish Kaan or the S. Korean KF21. Again I’m not sure if that would include Meteor or even AMRAAM?
Do you have any info you can share on the UK blocking meteor sales to India, I have never seen any mention of it and can’t find anything.
Sorry Jim, nothing I can publish. The MoD can veto potential sales if it doesn’t agree to the security of the missile and its performance data. Especially from countries that have a history of trying to reverse engineer weapons.
Well the Chinese will be pleased at the amount of attention it has been given judging by the amount of chatter on YouTube.
I remain unconvinced about it. However if it helps focus minds and helps Tempest ( sorry GCAP is boring) get the funding it needs. Thanks China, you’re a star!!
Personally I think the more immediate problem is Trump starting a global conflict over the Panama Canal,
He never starts wars don’t cha know. A bit like car drivers though he sure watches a fair few in his mirrors mind. Imagine if Russia had been allowed to take out Ukraine in weeks (perhaps even if let off the hook now) and Trump decides he wants the canal. Two options the Russo Chinese decide to send forces to defend the Canal Zone or perhaps more likely he does a deal to let Chinese to ‘occupy’ Taiwan in exchange to him getting the canal. Is this our future, the big players treating the rest of us like pawns to be exploited? Might work for a period for Trump to boast about his genius but imagine the results down the line, a cross between the Roman Empire’s Second Triumvirate and the World in Orwell’s 1984. And there will be the Optimus robot bodied Trump ai telling us how it was all peaceful in his time.
Before people go off the rails at how this aircraft is better than the F35 let alone Tempest. It’s worth doing a deeper dive into what has been shown. There are now more detailed images of the aircraft on social media. Which clearly show it is triple engined. The question is why?
It is likely the aircraft is powered by the WS10 as used in the J20. It is an ok engine, but not outstanding. But there are other clues to where the aircraft’s performance is heading. The two side air intakes for the engines, do not have the J20’s diverterless (bump) intake. But are more reminiscent of the F22’s. The bump intake is pretty efficient up to Mach 1.8, above this it disrupts the airflow into the engine. So it’s likely that the intake uses variable ramps or perhaps something akin to the YF23 in the intake to better control the shock generation and boundary layer. Which means they are looking to push the aircraft above Mach 2.
The above fuselage dorsal intake has been tried on a number of fighter aircraft prototypes in the 1960’s. It didn’t really work out, as during certain flight maneuvers, the intake could be blanked off from the airflow and starve the engine. For comparatively straight and level flight it’s not such a problem.
As far as we know, China does not have an engine equivalent to the F22’s P&W F119, hence the triple engine fit to make up the power deficit. With three engines they might be looking at somewhere near Mach 2.5 maybe a bit more. However, looking at the wing area and profile, this isn’t a Mach 3+ aircraft.
This is definitely a trials and development aircraft. I think to investigate high speed fight for a compound delta that does not use vertical flight control surfaces. In a number of images it clearly shows wingtip split ailerons as per the B2. Though it may also use differential thrust control to supplement the yaw control. The images show the aircraft does not have a 2D or 3D exhaust thrust vectoring. Even though China have experience of this through their Su27/30 clones. Which would give it more reactive yaw control. The flight controls will need to be constantly moving to control the Dutch Roll that becomes inherent with aircraft that don’t have vertical flight control surfaces.
Could this be a lead-in prototype to a new aircraft. I think it’s too early to say. But it does show China are looking at what the US can do with their NGAD and FA-XX tail less and fin less designs that have so far been shown. Is it enough to worry Tempest/GCAP? Again it’s too early to tell, but at some point the design of GCAP will be finalized and then become public. At which point China will do its damndest to analyze and speed up something to replace the J20.
I’ve no idea how good this aircraft might actually be, but between the two new flying aircraft designs and the new flat top (probably assault ship) and their carriers etc etc, it does look a bit like China is putting serious effort into its military build up. I can’t help but feel the West is resting on its laurels and still revelling in the post Cold War I peace dividend.
But hey, we’ve a fibreglass Tempest with various nations doing the hokey kokey about taking part in it (aka paying for it).
And the Chinese are 100% fine with dragging anchors around the Baltic to aid their Ruskie rent boys in deniable warfare with the West whilst we wring our hands.
… and a lot more of that coming sadly. I despair at the likely raproachment with Russia under Trump for economic priorities and the general Western investment in China for the sake of cheapness while both ramp up their debilitating actions to damage or frighten us into compliance as they pick off easy targets to grow their Empires. Talk about sleepwalking into our own decline and fall. The Germans going from relative energy cost parity with the US to near 4 times the cost explains everything about the wall and hard place scenario in Germany in recent times and the effects on its economy. How did such a Country we associate with competence allow itself to be pushed there by the Greens. Then we look at our own economic weakness and Govts never associated with ‘competence’ and contemplate our own challenges. Weep.
Interesting to see the Indian media loosing its shit over this. I wonder if this will focus the mind of India to make more of an effort looking for Allie’s. It’s a very dangerous game playing both sides of one another between Russia and the west when Russia will be zero help against China and India is the most likely country to be a victim of Chinese aggression.
India’s action over Ukraine have thus far removed any moral argument for us assisting over any Chinese incident.
It makes the dozey pair Starmer and Lammy’s attempts to give away shed loads of money to give away the Chagos look like extreme treason. I wonder what the legal beagles think? Its a bit like the same crowd giving the Russians Jet Engine tech in the 40’s.
Difficult to be sure but my initial reaction is that it bears an immediate similarity to the mysterious Northrop Grumman fighter part revealed in that image of their stealth aircraft projects in a hanger back in 2021. It was theorised it was their original proposal for NGAD at the time. However we know little more about that aircraft since and of course they have been given the bomber category to concentrate on which perhaps only adds to the interest in this Chinese aircraft perhaps.