A photograph on Reddit shows a US Navy F/A-18E Super Hornet appearing to score a simulated gun kill on a British F-35B Lightning II operating from HMS Prince of Wales during training over the Pacific.
The picture, striking as it is, has circulated widely with speculation about what it might mean. In truth, nothing remarkable, it represents routine and structured training rather than a Top Trumps-style air-to-air victory.
The encounter took place as part of Dissimilar Air Combat Training, or DACT, a regular element of multinational exercises. The purpose of DACT is to give pilots from different aircraft types the chance to understand each other’s strengths, weaknesses and tactics. It is not a contest or a test of which fighter is superior.
Each aircraft involved has its own set of objectives, which may include learning to detect, evade, or engage specific threats under controlled conditions.
DACT dates back to the late stages of the Vietnam War, when the US introduced “aggressor” training to replicate the tactics of adversary aircraft. The idea proved so effective that it became a cornerstone of advanced pilot instruction. Today, it has evolved to reflect the realities of current combat, which increasingly involves stealth, networked sensors and electronic warfare rather than simple ‘dogfighting’.
For F-35B pilots, these sessions provide vital experience in avoiding detection and surviving engagements with agile fourth-generation fighters like the Super Hornet. For the US Navy pilots, the goal is to learn how to locate and engage stealth aircraft under realistic conditions. The Pacific location of the exercise adds another layer of relevance, with both navies preparing for potential scenarios in a region where China is expanding its own carrier and fifth-generation fighter capabilities.
The image itself captures a visually dramatic moment within a carefully managed exercise. A “gun kill” in this context refers to the simulated positioning of one aircraft behind another at close range, indicating that a shot could have been taken in combat. It does not imply defeat for the F-35 or superiority for the Super Hornet, or the opposite. Both aircraft have somewhat different use cases, after all.
Training like this produces data, refines tactics and ensures that both pilots and aircraft can perform at their best in complex, multinational operations.
Why was HMS Prince of Wales in the Pacific?
HMS Prince of Wales’s presence in the Pacific formed part of Operation Highmast, a major deployment intended to test the UK’s ability to project power and sustain a carrier strike group far from home.
The carrier led exercises with allies including the United States, Japan, and Australia, operating alongside advanced air and naval assets to strengthen interoperability and refine tactics for joint operations.
The deployment showcased Britain’s capacity to conduct high-tempo air operations at long range, building on lessons from Queen Elizabeth’s 2021 Indo-Pacific mission and reaffirming the UK’s commitment to regional security and freedom of navigation. Now, as Prince of Wales prepares to head home via the Suez Canal, the deployment enters its final phase.
Someone else noticed this, but I think it’s interesting that the F18 is doing 38 degree angle of attack at what looks like 184kts (if the HUD symbology is what I’m used to from flight simulators). That’s very, very low and slow, it’s not surprising the F35 came off worse.
Yes, in what world would and F18 ever get near enough to an F35 for a gun kill.
This is just like when the German typhoons killed an F22. Obviously a fourth generation fighter optimised for manuverability will have an advantage over a fifth gen one designed for stealth and fighting at range.
Just like a Gloucester gladiator could kill an ME109 if it ever got close enough.
Well anything can kill anything but in a close in dogfight I would still overwhelmingly prefer to be in a 109. Yes the Gladiator did shoot down some 109s not clear how many but it has to be stated that its overall kill ratio against all opposition was 1.2 to 1 which as many of its opponents were Italian biplanes and bombers doesn’t suggest it’s capability against 109s would have been anything like in its favour. Sadly records are too hazy to give an accurate comparison. But speed alone and relative firepower would have made it one sided in most engagements.
In the more modern comparison your argument holds far more water however, the F-35 is a terrible dog fighter compared to the 4/4.5 Gen fighters or for that matter an F-22 so indeed its strength is over the horizon engagements where it’s rarely if ever even seen… well for now with present sensor/radar technology in a decade perhaps maybe somewhat different, Tempest’s sensors are designed to detect stealth as we know it today and the Chinese and no doubt the US are working on similar technology. Of course stealth itself will evolve and a non stealthy aircraft will always be at a disadvantage in detection. The only other point I guess is that as intense conflict builds up things never quite become as predictable or reliable as when they start and errors will let the unexpected Ted happen like a 109 ever allowing a Gladiator to get into a position to engage and down it. I’m sure they learned quickly which is why a certain Canadian aircraft designer who claimed that WW2 might start with monoplanes but it will surely end with biplanes, was proved so very wrong. Don’t think he anticipated the jet age mind which is perhaps the real lesson on predicting future events, ie not only a wrong move but an entirely wrong playing board.
The F35 is not a terrible dogfighter. That is just utter nonsense.
Didn’t some Avro Ansons shoot down Me109s early in the war because the German pilots never realised that they needed to treat it essentially as a static target and kept overshooting?
Pilot skill and training is nearly always the deciding factor, rather than marginal technical superiority.
Pretty sure the F22 outperfroms most 4th gen fighters kinematically too (bear in mind the design is about 30years later in technology than the F15 for example).
High AoA control is kind of the Hornet’s party trick, so that 38° AoA is believable.
It’s just not the ability to stay controlled at a high angle of attack. The other key factor is pointability, which is how easy is it to point the nose away from the forward path the aircraft is traveling in. Which is especially crucial for dogfighting with guns. As it means the pilot has a degree of following/leading the target when it’s maneuvering wildly.
The F18 is particularly good at this. I’d say this is probably one of its main party pieces over contemporary and some 5th Gen jets. This capability plays into the F18s area when the fight speed is pretty slow. Where it’s high power to weight, very large leading edge root extensions (LERX), twin fins and two vertical strakes in front of the fins helps it point the nose. The LERX and strakes generate very strong vortices, which the fins use to maintain control at very high angles of attack. Which with the other flight controls helps it point its nose to follow a target.
To me it’s no surprise that the F18 did this, especially as its HUD shows it flying fairly slowly. So making the F35 pilot react to the F18 pilot’s fight. If the fight was high subsonic, the F35 would have been in a much better position. Not sure how it would do a guns only engagement without the underbelly gun pod though? If this was a real knife fight, the F18 would have been taken out ages ago. As the F35 pilot would have used ASRAAM to bisect the circle, where they’d use their helmet mounted sight to lock the F18.
Yeah the F-35Bs weren’t able to fight the way they would actually so is this really that much of a surprise
The F35 is NOT designed as a within visual range fighter. It is a long range sniper. The F18 would be detected a long way out in reality and shot before it could detect the F35. This is really a non story…
If it had any long range missiles to do so, only AMRAAMs presently fit that bill. The F-18 by the way has the smallest detectable frontal radar detection size of any 4th Gen fighter from what I have read.
not if the F18 has a Growler as a wingman 😉
F35 “stealth” is only optimised for X-band from the front, not so much from other angles. Furthermore. there are pkenty of ways to detect “stealth” like low band radars, photonic, optics, infrared, multi-static, passive like picking up signals from cell towers, TVs, radios etc… add sensor fusion/AI and suddenly the world just got a lot more dangerous.
The F35 is all aspect stealth like the F22 and F117 before them. Some radar bands could pick up traces of a F35 in the area. But tracking, and engaging and getting a firing solution is another thing altogether.
no its not as stealthy as the F22. The F22 has special exhausts to lower heat signature whereas the F35 has a single massive rear exhaust that literally melts runways.
FYI are you aware that missiles can lock on after launch? so let’s say a low band radar picks up the heading and speed of an incoming threat, in a time of war the defender could lob a missile in that direction, when the missile gets close enough it will pick up the F35 either by IR or EM depending on missile. F35 is not invisible it is detectable by an X-band AESA at around 50km range according to many credible experts (well within the no esacpe zone of a missile like a Meteor)
Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting the F35 is dogshit (except for agility and speed). but it is not the Alpha and Omega that many believe it to be especially with tech evolutions and new tactical doctrines.
I’m sorry But those facts and figures are way off. That’s not how it works at all. As for speed and agility. It can do M1.6 with a full fuel and weapon load. Other jets have higher top speeds, but only when clean. And missiles like Meteor or AMRAAM don’t have IR. An F35 will have a missile in the air before anyone has a clue its being engaged.
which figures are way off? how would you know? plenty of experts have estimated around 50km detection from an AESA and this is what i am using.
How can you be categoric and say a F35 can get a firing solution on a F18 at range before detected?
What is your expert assessement of the range an F35 can target a F18 accompagnied by a Growler with 3 EW pods? I can assure you that it won’t be anywhere close to max range! – meanwhile F18 got a shiny new radar and Growler has new EW pods that can jam, and pick up many signals. Additionally for the F35 to get a firing solution on the F18 it will have to turn on its radar thereby revealing its position? Stealth airframe at that point being meaningless.. In fact MBDA’s SEAD/DEAD missile in the works, the Stratus RS (Rapid Strike) will be able to hit radar stations even after they turn off their radar, which was a shortcoming of previous missiles like AG88-Harm. Tech again continously evolving.
secondly there are other missiles besides AMRAM or Meteor. there are IR guided missiles at long ranges. for example Mica IR can engage at ranges up to 80km, it will be even longer with Mica NG (entering service) at over 100km. Optics and IR are also progressing. Sure they have their limitation through clouds etc… but planes usually fly above or below cloud level … and let’s not even bring up F35 + thunder issues.
furthermore F35B cannot sustain supersonic speeds of Mach 1.2 for more than a minute, not because of engine limitations but limitations of the airframe and RAM coating. At mach1.2 or higher there is a high risk that friction causes severe blistering and cracking of the RAM coating as well as causing damage to antennas fitted into airframe edges like the wings. This is direct from GAO and DOT&E annual reports and their recommended guidelines to pilots when flying the aircraft. The Pentagon has not even given the green light on a fix, since more pressing issues. so this remains unfixed until further notice.
what does a full weapon load on F35 even mean? because weapon load in internal bays is limited in numbers and type of weapons it can carry, why F35 also have fixed points on wings. furthermore speed is also affected by weight not just drag. and an enemy airplane carrying a few air to air missiles is not going to be affacted greatly by those missiles weight or drag . AA missiles are not “draggy” by design as fly much faster at mach 3+ or heavy (between 100kg and 200kg) depending on missile model – weight penalty is the same regardless if mounted under wings or in a bay.
Of course if the enemy aircraft is carrying an assortment of targeting pods, cruise missiles, fuel tanks, bombs etc.. it won’t be flying supersonic,but then it’s task won’t be air combat.
I think stealth is just one of many factors in war, not the only determining factor. there are proven ways to detect and defeat stealth (F117 in Bosnia war, RQ170 stealth drone detected and forced to land by Iran, etc…), this was then and things have continued to evelove. as there are also ways of using EW in aerial warfare to negate max range BVR
anyway you are convinced with religious fervor by the promise of stealth, so I doubt that we can have any meaningful discussion about its limitations in a real conflict.
on that note. good day to you sir and happy halloween/weekend
Last thing i want to be very clear on. I am not saying stealth is dead or useless. I think its an important factor, but one of many. That is why gen 6 will have some stealth and hopefully not sacrfice all other aspects for just one attribute.
My gripe with the F35,(other than its halfbaked production process) is that it went all in all stealth at the detriment of other aspects such as flight characteristics. IMO putting all your eggs in one basket is a recipe for disater.
I think the F22 got it right and is probably the best fighter currently, because it is the only true 5th gen aircraft, it has no compromise (except price) since it is stealth, supercruise, sensor fusion and supermaneuvrable. The original 5th gen as defined by Lockheed themselves, but with F35 the goal post seems to have moved, where 2 criteria where dropped to fit a new sales narrative.
F35 is a generation ahead of F22. All fast jets won’t go supersonic for more than a 1 or 2 mins because of the huge amount of fuel it requires. F18 isn’t going to be fighting F35s for real. They will work together. F35 is winning pretty much every fighter contest, and air forces want the 5th gen capability. Which goes far beyond top speeds and agility. That stuff is for top trumps only.
1. no – F35 is not a generation ahead of F22. they are same gen and designed in the 90s. Furthermore F22 has had various upgrades since entering service
2. yes – jets that can supercruise can achieve and maintain supersonic speeds for more than a couple of minutes, as they are much more fuel efficient
3. agreed that it is very unlikely that F35 faces off with other western jets. Even if a country that did possess those were to ever enter in a conflict vs an F35, the maintenace and support tap would have been sealed well before any air to air engagement.
4. you are a stealth zealot and you have convinced yourself that there is no credible threat to the F35. Let’s just agree to disagree
Last questions which are relevant to this article, food for thought and the art of dogfighting.
– What happens when an F35 faces another 5th or upcoming 6th gen aircraft (China has certainly progressed leaps and bounds)? theoretically neither can detect each other until the merge – what happens then? everyone calls “no joy” and RTB? or do we have a scenario where BFM comes into play?
– F35 is projected to be in service for many decades to come – at least 2060. what happens in say post 2030 when new tech emerges … let’s consider advanced EW tech and/or a hard kill defense system for a jet (laser or an evolved Trophy APS) – let’s assume they work and make missiles unreliable – what then? go to guns?
During Vietnam war, many said dogfighting was a thing of the past. Turns out it wasn’t.
Simply because you cannot imagine a fight beyond what you envision combat to be or according to your set of pre-defined rules, does not mean it won’t happen.
If Ukraine has taught us anything, is that pre-conceived ideas don’t pan out. Right now it’s like a WW1 trench stalemate. Yet this conflict has never stopped evolving with innovative tools and tactics since day 1. the fight in 2022, was not the same as 2023, in turn not the same as 2024, etc… and who knows what 2026 and beyond will bring.
one more nofe. true that low band cannot get a quality signal to enable a firing solution, but that is where sencor fusion comes in. presumably a modern aemy will have many types of networked sensors working together (sat, awacs, over the horizon radars, air deffense batteries, fighter jets in the air etc….). that is where AI comes in and analyzes all these different data points and gives a much clearer picture.
My wife’s best mate is a right Growler. She can bring the sun down. 😂
While these types of canned, highly rule-restricted exercises probably provide valuable training insights for the pilots, the public should be very wary of drawing any conclusions from them at all. In any likely real scenario, any F-35 variant would have a 4th gen fighter dead to rights before the 4th gen pilot knew he was in any danger at all. Even in an unlikely close-range engagement, both the F-35 and F/A-18E/Fs have helmet cued, incredibly agile missiles that would make any type of gunplay very counterproductive.
Until you run out of missiles and have to use whatever you have to survive…
Well since we don’t have gun pods for our F-35Bs when we run out of missiles way out beyond the range he can see us with radar we return to the carrier and rearm. We don’t run into a knife fight empty handed with a 4 1/2th gen aircraft.
Assuming the F-18 isn’t part of a force targeting the carriers anyway.
Don’t think that would make any difference. An F/A-18 in AShW configuration is going to be using LRASM and releasing them a hell of a lot further away from the CSG than BVR missile range. They are doing to drop and go before they come into kill range from the Surface to Air defences of the CSG because the entire concept it not to die. You wear the opponent out with repeated strikes over time. You can’t do that throwing away airframes.
So basically the F/A-18 even in A2A mode will stick with the strike aircraft they are escorting and the CAP will retreat when out of BVR missiles so that they can come back and fend off further attacks and the ready alert will take over for them because they will have been launched the moment the fleet detected the incoming strike aircraft and there will be a rolling launch of fighters happening in the background.
If everything goes to plan!
Wondering why they’re not considering gun pods on the F35Bs? They’ll be internal on the F35As but must be the same ammo? Be interesting to know if other F35B operators have gone with the gun pods. Better than fighting with nothing and might be good at shooting down drones.
USMC has the gun pods.
Like most things with the F-35 program, the RN/MOD hasn’t bought it.
I think they did consider it but didn’t believe it to be a core part of the F-35B’s mission on the UK CSG. You have to remember that we should already be fielding Meteor and Spear 3 if LM hadn’t been monumentally late. The USMC anticipate using the F-35B in a different manner for which the gun pod made sense.
I agree that with the way things are at the minute a gun for the UK B’s would make sense with the proliferation of large one way attack drones. Although I suspect a Wildcat with 20 Martlets would be more effective although more expensive. It’s a speed differential thing for the f-35 pilot with the gun pod. It’s not so easy hitting a slow small jinking drone.
Spear 3 was due to be integrated in 2018. The MOD pulled the funding to make a year end budget constraint, now it’s at the back of the line. Not LM’s fault.
Then you depart, if no BVR kill.
And then you simply run away and the f35 has both Mach speed cruise and Mach speed manovering.. essentially an f18 could never force this type of low speed fight in real life… no f35 pilot would allow it to happen.. and guns are essentially useless in any high energy high speed fight which a f35 could maintain… it’s worth noting that there has only ever been one single record high speed gun kill ( Mach speed). and because of that you can say that was statistically an artifact ( essentially blind luck).
Remember that F18 would have 5.8 seconds of cannon fire as well…
The last time a U.S. fixed wing aircraft used its cannon in anger against an Air target was 36 years ago and that was an A10 attacking a helicopter.
Yes true to say the F-18s narrow speed advantage would unlikely allow it to close on an F-35 unless the pilot of the latter was very negligent or unlucky, its own super cruise capability isn’t exactly stellar mind. However if the F-18 were close enough a short range missile would have some chance of locking onto the F-35, but the open source information is rather nebulous however on such matters.
Given we’re comparing a lightly loaded F35 to a fully equipped Hornet, I’m not sure the F18 would actually have any speed advantage whatsoever. Apparently it struggles to go supersonic with SM-6 on board and isn’t much better with a full AMRAAM load.
not if the F18 has a Growler as a wingman 😉
F35 “stealth” is only optimised for X-band from the front, not so much from other angles. Furthermore. there are plenty of ways to detect “stealth” like low band radars, photonic, optics, infrared, multi-static, passive like picking up signals from cell towers, TVs, radios etc… add sensor fusion/AI and suddenly the world just got a lot more dangerous
Biggest concern is that the F-35s limitations as an airframe at the moment are far more than compensated for by its stealth and situational awareness. Problem is what the situation may be in a decade when superior sensors, more capable missiles and more capable opponents are common. The F-35 may progress from supreme to a liability rather quickly I fear. I think LM will be tasked with trying to ameliorate its weaknesses as much as possible, more thrust with greater range through adaptive engines and aerodynamic tweaks, being the minimum priorities even if it leaves the B version behind.
Interesting article, there’s been much speculation that the day of the dogfight is gone. I wonder what occurs when two adversary stealth jets come up against each other – will this become a VR gun fight?
Somewhat off topic but relevant – Royal Navy pilot Dick Lord was one of the founder instructors “seconded” to Top Gun at it’s establishment. He later returned to RSA (a dual national) to serve in the SAAF. He retired a Brig General and then wrote several books. A great boss and first class human being , he passed away a few years ago.
Even stealth fighters can and will be detected by each other at 20 miles range or Radar and IRST. Weapons like ASRAAM using IR guidance will likely be very important in such a scenario and it’s a major disadvantage of the F22 until recently.
A gun kill will never happen in the real world. Pilots will break off instead of risking it. They might be lucky enough to score a kill but they would leave their own aircraft in an incredibly vulnerable spot to try and get a gun kill.
Ammunition for the haters
And a non story.
Ha ha.
Getting up late this morning and reading all the comments is like everyone is now a Fighter Ace all of a sudden !!!
‘Getting up late’ and it’s 06:22?
Yup, That’s late, I’m normally a 4 am Riser then about 30 minutes to wake up and then do my normal Online search routine.
BBC, Weather sites like Zoom Earth, Emails, EBay, TEMU, Amazon Deliveries and then here.
Or accepts that a modern gun pod is a bit more than a gun bolted the frame with crosshairs painted onto the canopy!
There was a reason why F35 gun pods too a while to get accurate….they are not just passive.
That said situational awareness is king and F35 has better situational awareness and so would leave the area protocol if it didn’t have answers.
The F-35B/C gun pod is plenty accurate, its the internal gun on the F-35A that has accuracy issues.
There has been talk of removing the gun from the A and using the B’s gun pod.
Both 7G high Alpha fighters. Tough gig. In a real shooting war, the F35 would have an AMRAAM in the air from 30 miles away before the bad guy even new he was being engaged. While also sharing the location of the other bad guys to every allied fast jet, warship and ground based commander on the network. Situational awareness is king.
Absolutely…. though only as long as that situational awareness can be maintained of course. If it’s degraded the balance changes with it. Da1 may be very different to day 100 especially for operators not called the United States. But we can in reality only speculate on that, even those who call themselves experts for the most part. War historically tends to change ‘expertise’ very quickly.
If only the F35 could VIFF.
A big problem if you don’t have a giant airborne early warning aircraft… Low observability aircraft can be seen… The UK does not have that ability. Well actually very few people have that ability
Same for tankers. The US was planning expensive manned stealth tankers, but it seems for now at least it was either a new fighter(s) or a stealth tanker. That’s the biggest weakness of the F-35 its limited range potentially puts both Tankers in particular but various Electronic Warfare platforms in harms way. Thus the flight understandably towards unmanned systems.
The B has the performance margin to be a buddy tanker (18,000lbs external stores). It requires no systems integration, Cobham has stated they could build a buddy refueling package for the F-35 if the MOD funds it.
Whatever 🤷🏻♂️
Morning to all you Aces !
In the West’s headlong rush to Tech superiority, these sort of reality checks are a worth while exercise.
“Dag daga daga, you can teach monkeys” !
loving the battle of Britain movie reference !
OK, as a Haircraft Hengineer, I can see the flaws in the F35’s design, It really needs a Rear Gunner.
Mabe a couple of Lewis guns in a Ball Turret ?
How about a 20mm firing through the nose spinner ?
“Yee haaa, Jester’s dead”
“I like that in a Pilot”.
If I may venture- adding a Bolton Paul defiant quad browning mount
It’s not a gun kill, look at the HUD symbology.
Well spotted.
We are but Mushrooms, Kept in the dark and fed Horse Dung !!!!
Love these comments, made my day. Crabfats and flying fisheads get toasted.
Me thinks the article protests too much. F35 is one tool in the box, even if a very expensive one
Oh dear ,bring back the Sea Harrier FA2 😀
F,35 is not fast, agile or stealthy it is a while elephant that will soon get itself killed in numbers
If it not a fighter or a bomber it is just a sensor platform with weapons.
As usual we didn’t even want a gun on ours.