The Royal Air Force say that their first Wedgetail AEW1 (E-7A) airborne early warning and control aircraft is taking shape in Birmingham.
According to the RAF here, the first of the three aircraft undergoing conversion has now received its Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) sensor.
“The Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array sensor, developed and manufactured by Northrop Grumman, is housed in a distinctive fin on the spine of the aircraft. Fitted to a fuselage section reinforced as part of the heavy modification process, the sensor will provide 360-degree coverage.
The sensor can accurately detect and identify targets at increasingly longer ranges, providing mission crews with the tools needed to track airborne and maritime targets while maintaining continuous surveillance of the operational area. In service the Wedgetail’s will be operated by 8 Squadron at RAF Lossiemouth.”
Air Commodore Hicks, Assistant Chief of Staff Capability Delivery for Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance aircraft, was quoted as saying:
“This installation of the MESA sensor is a tangible demonstration of the progress being made toward the phenomenal capability of Wedgetail entering RAF frontline service. This highly complex technology is undeniably exposed to the challenges facing global supply chains and I am grateful to all involved in the programme for their continued work and dedication.”
Richard Murray, DE&S Director Air Support, was also quoted:
“This is a hugely complex programme that is being delivered in a difficult global supply chain environment given the challenges of the last two years. Installation of the world-leading MESA sensor on the first aircraft marks a key milestone in the development of the UK E7 Wedgetail fleet and reflects the hard work of all of the project’s partners.”
You can read more on this here.
Sorry, bit of an old rant of mine, but why are all the E7 & P8s being put alongside Typhoons and all on the one airbase which like all the others don’t seem to have any GBAD? Is it just to save on money, centralising logistics and spare parts? Talk of all the high end eggs in one basket. And there are no hardened shelters for the E7/P8s. Hope they’re practicing dispersion to and ops out of other airfields or, even simpler, get some GBAD happening.
It’s entirely to save money.
The RAF dusted off cold war dispersal plans a year or 2 back though, flights would be dispersed to regional airports if the threat level warranted it.
I’ve seen the A400’s making repeated approaches to a couple of airports in my part of the country, always just referred to as a training exercise, no doubt part of keeping crews current on airports which could host dispersed aircraft which they’d be flying supplies into.
I had to go up to Lincoln a few years ago so stopped off at Waddington for a peep. What I saw appalled me. No less than five AWACS all parked in a line a few hundred yards away. First thing crossed my infantry mind was they could be rendered u/s within a few minutes by one or two operatives with a crude RPG7 or suchlike. Concentration of basing for economic reasons could be the RAF’s undoing within a few hours. Seems they never “get it”.
Depends where you go. Wadd has a viewing car park accesable to all and you can see plenty of the station from it and the Sentry hanger to the right as you look.
Trying that at places like Marham is not so easy and places with ac in a HAS even more so. Sentry obviously doesnot go inside a HAS.
But yes, many locations will be vulnerable to that, whether assets are concentrated or not. Others you’d be picked up the moment you stop your car.
Point taken about some locations. Sadly the majority are sadly lacking in physical and visible security. Still easy to take a massive chunk out of capability though.
I don’t believe it’s a UK only issue regards assets in view. You could say the same about many a nations facilities and the security implications and costs required would be astronomical to stop a drive by attack with 2 guys in a car firing an RPG at a line of planes. Not just RAF, but wider fefence, they did that to one of this nations most secure places many years ago at VX and Downing Street, you cannot stop such things like a mortar attack in a free country that hasn’t closed areas to public access. Roberts comment on… Read more »
Luckily, we have an effective intelligence service. Which is why RAF bases have remained safe for decades.
Hi Robert….. I wonder where hundreds of fighting age males could be found to attack infrastructure in the case of trouble….. smuggled in AK 47’s and empty hotels perhaps
Ian
And yet these types of attacks have never happened. It isn’t easy to get weapons in the country and plan attacks on major defence sites without sombody knowing about it. Same reason we haven’t had a major terrorist attack since 2005. Lone wolf is a threat, but getting weapons of any use is very difficult. We can’t hide everything in harden aircraft shelters. Most RAF stations have viewing area’s for the public to watch the stations aircraft movements. This is a good thing, and shows the terrorist threat is very very low for the kind of scenario you described at… Read more »
”And yet these types of attacks have never happened.”
Let us hope the never do!
The threats are constantly monitored. Like I said to the other commentator. RAF Camps have public viewing area’s. People are looking at unrealistic scenario’s and make out that we are being careless. We are not.
Indeed, they are monitored, I remember from my days in…
But as we are all aware, it only has to happen once…
As to weapons, 1 hammer is enough to decommission an aircraft!
Whilst a hammer would put an aircraft out of service you would need to physically approach it. The days of having a 3′ high chain link fence that was falling over in places are thankfully long gone and when the bases were re-fenced a lot of other passive security and over watch was added. Would it stop an SAS level team: no. Would it stop amateur hour: yes. It is all about threat level and risks and then where you spend limited £££££. Personally I would rather see some added investment into Ceptor-ER sets to protect the bases maybe with… Read more »
There is also the issue of attacking a military base that contains a group of people armed and trained to use guns properly.
Exactly 👍
Seriously, you’re bigging up the RAF Regt… 😉 The same Regt that couldn’t protect some Harriers?
Taxi!
Yes, that was a stuff up of monumental proportions.
Different dynamic where shots would be clearly heard and people behaving oddly stick out like a sore thumb.
In a time of crisis the curtains would be twitching across the land and given that GRU (and therefore Speznaz) seem to have been trained in the Clouseau academy of covert operations under Mr Bean’s tutelage: they would stick out like a sore thumb.
It’s easy for state actors to get weapons into the country. It is an illusion to assume that just because something hasn’t happened before that it is incapable of happening. You can have few expensive assets in a single secure location or you can have lots of asset in many unsecure locations. You can’t have both. Airbase security nowadays seems to lie behind a single, bored armed serviceman on the main gate and a half asleep QRF waiting for their shift to end. It’s not good enough. RAF needs to try harder.
I don’t think your assessment of RAF station security is accurate.
Good point. People forget how many “soldiers” the Provos put on the ground in Belfast alone. In the province that at one time tied down forty thousand troops/police and part-time soldiers….
I once did a count and came up with 70k ish, including the security services. PIRA tied up a lot of resources – consider training to deploy, coming off tour.
Interesting comment.
You think that’s bad. Faslane is far worse.
Firstly you have the other side of the Loch to contend with if you look at the article on 03\11 of the visit there, look between the ship lift and finger jetty. On top of the hill is a road, that’s a carpark you can see, less then a mile as the crow flies, imagine lobbing a few mortar rounds from there!!!
No UK base I know is watertight. And someone mentioned our “intel” is good. I would challenge that but can’t be bothered arguing tbh. Our leaky borders mean anyone can basically bring what they like in and start a party. Near me is a leaky seaport or two. Marham and Scampton are just a short drive away. Any determined operator could take a large chunk out of UK air/naval capability in a very short time. I know of one local RAF station that had a dog section with 20 K9’s and handlers once. It now has two, and they provide… Read more »
I’d suggest Burghfield, Aldermaston, Porton Down, Coulport to list just 4 are pretty secure! I’m talking about the bits of those that really matter.
Interestingly, SF also have exercises to target places to test security.
Presume MoD has the legal right and capability to increase physical security measures around sensitive facilities, upon either commencement of hostilities or warning of imminent attack. Would consume significant manpower from TA perhaps?
Per UKDJ article on 9 Aug 22, HMG surfaced a plan to acquire a fully integrated land-based GBAD system in incremental fashion over a 10 yr. period. One could hope the world is closer to a 1930 than 1939 timeline scenario. 🤔😳🤞
Sadly, not that simple…
Basically put;
MOD can increase security at MOD sites at will.
Sites that come under a ”Civilian” ministry, the MOD has to wait to be asked!!
Then the Government has to approve…
Yes. And they maintain the list of KPs, which is classified, so there are contingencies in place, as for all things.
KPs? Sorry, unknown acronym.
Key Points. With common sense and knowledge one could name many if not most of them, apart from those which are earmarked and the occupants themselves don’t know they’ve been listed.
👍
In the Cold War the HSF – Home Service Force – part of the TA were, I think, all over 50’s and around 5,000 strong, and meant to protect key points against Spetsnatz.
There was a British comedy of uncertain vintage, shown on PBS and the BBC channel in US, believe entitled “Dad’s Army” about the Home Guard, circa WW II. Any relationship to HSF? 🤔😁😉
OMG what a classic that is….Yes that’s the image!
….don’t tell them Pike.
Not entirely sure what the legal side is, but assume that HMG would have some powers under ‘terrorist/military war act’ or such like. As you say v manpower intensive though.
Have to agree with ref a possible timeline for a GBAD system. Sky sabre on its own isn’t man enough imo, but as part of a layered defence then fine. No idea what they will select as the outer layer system, although there are a couple of good capable systems.out there.
I think if things hotted up then that car park would have a row of concrete blocks across the entrance pretty promptly.
Question is who owns the car park?
And does the lease have restrictive covenants in it for national security reasons.
That said most councils don’t mess around when they get a national security or Police ‘request’ to limit a threat. There are well defined lines of comms to deal with this stuff.
It always used to amaze me whenever I drove that road, how easy it would be to lob a few improvised mortar rounds at the base from that carpark. I presume the local council own the place, so yes, it should be fairly straightforward to close it off, but, could be a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted kind of affair.
The other side of the Loch is even worse, lots of houses and a partially wooded hillside Ron’s parallel to the whole base – complete nightmare to police I imagine.
Let’s try ‘runs’ parallel instead.🤔
The locals have always been pretty switched on as to what is going on round there?
Yes, I think that would be pretty accurate. Indeed I would imagine that they would notice something out of the ordinary certainly, before passing on any information.
Does this car park look directly down on the base from its rear as you look with Gareloch OFD and Strone Camp to your right?
I think I have parked in said carpark myself!
Yes mate it does. You are a long way from home if you’re parked there.
Well I was up there deliberately having a nose around so…!
Danielle, that’s still a long way to go for a “nose around’, wouldn’t be done in a afternoon that’s for sure. 🤣 Still hope you enjoyed it.
He gets everywhere that lad….😂
They have solved the dispersal issue by reducing aircraft numbers to such a low level that wherever a type is, you can consider it suitably dispersed. The C130s were dispersed from Lyneham to Brize, and will shortly enter a dispersal of such ingenuity, nobody will ever be able to find them.
😂👍 funny but sadly true!
Late Cold War most RAF AEW and MPA aircraft were based at RAF Kinloss, save a few nimrods at St Mawgan. This is because it gave the Nimrods excellent reach of the North Atlantic. With the closure of RAF Kinloss and RAF Leuchars after the 2010 defence review RAF Lossiemouth is the only RAF base in Scotland. I’m unsure as to the state of Kinloss but Leuchars could definitely be reopened and held typhoons not so long ago.
I thought the E-3s were based at Waddington?
You are correct. The E-3Ds were based at Waddington. I think @Louis may have been referring to the older Shackleton AEWs, which flew out of Lossiemouth.
Oh well that something. My apologies, I must have read wrongly then. Regardless of whatever is in what bases there is a seemingly non-existent GBAD throughout the UK which I find, as do other here, seems very amiss considering the consolidation of such very expensive air assets. Maybe something more from Sky Sabre, land based mobile Dragonfire, Thales UK Iron Dome concept and the Anglo-Polish CAMM-EX will fill the gaps? Had to smile with the UK supplying AMRAAMs for Ukrainian NASAMS, obviously doable, any for the UK anyone? Australia is co-developing and adopting NASAMs, which makes good sense with shared… Read more »
Yes of course, I was referring to Schackleton AEWs that flew out of Scottish bases. I believe they are keeping Poseidon and e7 together due to commonality between types.
Ah, I miss seeing them. Time for bed.
Both Kinloss and Leuchers are army barracks now, looks like they are keeping the runways for now however this being the Army you can bet they have ideas of cutting up the runways first chance they get. Would make sense to retain them in reduced state maybe keep up resurfacing so they can be used for dispersal.
39 Engr Regt up there, their job is runway and airfield repair so probably the best maintained runways in the country😄
Both usable.
I’ve been having the same rant, if two bases needed GBAD then its RAF Lossiemouth and RMNB Clyde.
Ideally something with anti ballistic capability as well.
Concentrating them makes it easier to defend them with GBAD and in an all out war civilian airports can easily a accommodate for dispersal. Saving money to maintain fleets numbers has to be the priority but I would like to see Sky Sabre at the very minimum in permanent operation at Lossiemouth, it’s the linch pin for NATO in the North Atlantic and The UK northern defence.
If war comes, an attack will come without warning. All E7 &P8s must be ready to leave within 30 minutes or less
Question, where will they go and where will they come back to? It all needs to be defended…and with something!
For that matter, does Saxa Vord have GBAD?
We don’t have any dedicated or long range GBAD, just the mobile units. My fear is that our radar sites would be eliminated by SSGN’s, allowing air launched weapons to sneak through.
I thought so. I don’t expect much from the joint project between the UK and Poland.
Nothing does, save RN vessels and the field army.
Yeah, it was a bit of a silly assumption. I mean, why protect something as a remote early warning radar that provides early detection of incoming attacks? lol
Probably because the threat assessment staffs at MoD knew that since 91 there’s been no need for GBAB and our military had a more expeditionary posture.
Our ASCS links to NATOs, such as sites in Norway and further north in the Faroes, so Saxa is not alone.
Now the situation has changed I agree there should be home based GBAD for some key sites.
Issue is cost.
There are 7 such sites like Saxa Vord around the UK. Would you defend them all, and what gives to fund it, if defence of such sites is a higher priority?
I
I was thinking about a cruise missile launch from a sub. It might be worth having something there because they’re building the spaceport about 2.3 miles away. Sorry, for some reason, it posted it twice.
I don’t think the spaceport is MoD or has any bearing on defending an outpost like Saxa. A sub launching a cruise missile that then flies at low level could take out any number of sites and the costs of which to defend them all would be ridiculous and that applies to all countries. Some of our RRHs ( like Saxa Vord ) I believe are meant to be mobile, in that they can theoretically be relocated to alternate sites, which may well be the best defence. I don’t think this is practiced and a look at GE shows the… Read more »
I do believe that it can be moved but I wouldn’t call it quick.
Yes, I did not mean they’d move it in response to a launch!!!😆 They’re not wheeled.
Hi Daniele, all these sites can/should have some level of basic-standard Shorad and other sites, maybe only 3-4 neeed, can have a higher tier/ABM defence capabilities. And shared inventories across UK forces. Is it that hard?
I might have asked this question before…what GBAD do the USAF bases have in the UK, even in the US? If different, then maybe we need to ask the reasons why?
“what GBAD do the USAF bases have in the UK, even in the US?”
None, as the RAF Regiment provided it and the 4 Squadrons were disbanded.
In the US I don’t know but I think none apart from the BMD assets.
The key difference is that is is a lot cheaper to provide something like an enhanced Sky Sabre than Bloodhound ever was.
Oh, and I would be 100% confident that Sky Sabre would do the job!
Thanks Daniele. I know some of us have different opinions on the GBAD issue so I’ll let this rest and believe that those in the know should know what they’re doing. I do hope that something good does come of the CAMM-EX co-development with Poland which could be for land and sea.
I heard that the police at Sellafield had stingers in their armoury back in the naughties.
If we need more of anything it is more of these, we really should be finding the funds for 7 of them. God only knows what you can do with an AESA that size but I’m guessing all sorts of Electronic Attack and Ground mapping.
Maybe just the 5 that were initially planned would be a good start. More concerning is only 7 P8 for an island nation, seems a bit light to replace the 30+ Nimrods dedicated to maritime surveillance. No doubt the new planes outperform the previous ones; however you still need numbers to ensure proper rotations on patrol.
9 P8’s not 7
Yes but I suppose the soviets had like 200 plus submarines back then as well. I would boost the numbers of P8 maybe up to 12 if we could get the AAS and use sea Guardian to supplement the P8 fleet. The P8 is an amazing aircraft but it’s also probably overkill for 90% of the time. Sea Guardian is off the shelf with lots of UK content and already in the fleet. Ten sea guardians of the price of one P8.
Sea Guardian is fine for maritime patrol in the channel, Irish sea, etc.. but not really for warfare, such as sub hunting or anti surface. Sure you can have different configurations with sonar buoy kits, radar pods, FLIR and anti ship missiles, but it can’t carry all because of limited payload capacity, not to mention the payload effects on endurance (aerodynamic and weight). Sea Guardian is fine for coast guard duty but it certainly doesnt replace a Nimrod or P8 in my book. I may be wrong but i doubt we will ever see a Sea Guardian very far from… Read more »
Yet as early as 2004 the fleet of MRA4 was only planned to be 16 and possibly 12 aircraft and the current number of 9 aircraft was decided upon in 2009 before the 2010 cuts, albeit with a different aircraft.
16 sounds good to me 😀
Back in 2000 people were still jubilant that the Cold War was over and the treasury was keen to collect on the peace dividend.
It made sense back then but now it’s the 2020s, and things have changed drastically; Russia has invaded Ukraine twice, China is building an almighty fleet, pipelines are targeted, … and who knows what else is brewing in other parts of the world.
But in relation to china what will 7 more P8s achieve? The US already has over a hundred and production could be ramped up. We already have two squadrons which probably have a maximum of three aircraft each. In a war we could easily double the size of the squadrons and 7 more could be delivered in a few months.
I still think there should be MPA/AEW reach from the south-west. The Atlantic is fairly important for our trade routes.
There will be plans somewhere to move aircraft to locations if needed.
Most places in the uk can be flown to in under 1 hour.
Perhaps France, Spain do that side of Atlantic MPA mission. I don’t know how integrated nato MPA aircraft operate together. I suppose the threats are a lot less in the mid Atlantic, America on one side, Europe on the other.
And Russian aircraft and assets patrolling the middle?
Is that Antiques Airshow that you are referring to?
The main hazard of the Russian planes is to their own aircrews!
Seems the west coast of Ireland is becoming a popular holiday location for the Russian Northern Banner Fleet. Maybe they are just sunbathing and enjoying the view. 🙂
M.S….. Gibraltar?????
The M20 in Kent is frequently shut these days as our Border Force chaps and chapesses deal with the 1000 or so migrants who turn up every day from France. We could disperse any number of aircraft under the M20 motorway bridges.
Kent, Sussex and Essex are so short of hotels the migrants are being put into 4* accomodation in case they complain
It’s a mistake to rip up old runways, especially where there are no specific plans for the site.
If the radar antenna is only just being installed (Nov 22) there remains considerable avionics still to be installed and then the whole system has to ground, and flight tested. Once integration testing is started new builds of system software will be required to address the faults found – where is this to be produced (US or UK?). This must put delivery and training well into 2024, so IOC (3 ac??) will be end 2024 at best and probably not until 2025 if problems are encountered or the MMA require further evidences to give it a certificate to operate. None… Read more »
It is based on a type widely used in AUS.
So the certification could be looked at before ordering?
Most of the certification will be based on the planes initial flying case, then the AUS flying case for its mods. As the UK ones are the same as the AUS ones that should be pretty straight forward.
That is until the ‘good ideas club’ gets to work……
Whilst this is all good to hear, 3 aircraft are just not enough for the current climate, I get that this is a converted airliner so it should be easier to maintain and keep airborne, also the solid state radar should cause less issues…… but three aircraft are not enough to keep overwatch of the entire uk, let alone any ‘global Britain’ aspirations that would need cover. Time to stop talking about defence and start doing something, come on Ben, let’s get back to at least the planned 5 aircraft, stick some booms on our tanker fleet and give the… Read more »
All aircraft require investment in support and. The E3s were world leaders when they went into service, but the MOD/RAF failed to keep them updated giving priority for cash to other programmes despite knowledge of other users (NATO and the USAF) update programmes. The same will happen to the E7 without prolonged support and don’t forget the E7 has been in RAAF service for 10 years and has at least one major update to my knowledge. Also, civilian operators maintain a constant upgrade programmes to stay abreast of technical and regulatory requirements this does not come cheap.
When 10s of 1000s of comms cables need protecting out into the Atlantic and North Sea, not to mention unmarked drones buzzing Norwegian off shore platforms and black Swan events looming, is three really enough?
The longest Australian wartime flight mission has been a little over 17 hours. 12-13 hours was fairly common. This is supposed to be 24×7 type capability. How do you do that with just 3 aircraft?
Exactly.