On a brisk morning in the heart of Glasgow, I found myself at BAE Systems’ Govan shipyard.
I, representing the UK Defence Journal, along with journalists from various newspapers, radio stations, and websites, was granted the unique opportunity to step into the future of naval warfare.
Our day commenced at 1330 hours, with our arrival at the BAE Systems Govan Linthouse Gate. After receiving our passes and donning high-visibility gear, we were escorted to the Glasgow Boardroom, where the day’s agenda was laid out. Refreshments in hand, we listened intently to updates on the Naval Ships Overview, the Type 26 Programme, and the transformative investments in shipbuilding technology being made by our hosts at the Govan yard.
Before going onboard, we were introduced to the Type 26 frigate through an immersive session in the Visualisation Suite. This was very helpful in detailing the meticulous design considerations of the Type 26 and its variants, emphasising the unparalleled attention to detail in enhancing acoustic quieting and human factors in ship design.
Our tour then took us through the heart of the shipbuilding process, from the fabrication facilities where HMS Cardiff’s hull units were born to the hard standing where HMS Cardiff herself was present, towering over the Glasgow skyline.
Can I have my pen back?
The crescendo of our tour was the boarding of HMS Cardiff. Ascending eight flights of stairs to the deck, the scale of this massive ship was awe-inspiring.
I couldn’t help but quip about the situation, remarking on the irony that, despite the significant investments funnelling into the yard, not enough had apparently been earmarked for a lift to accommodate us less-than-athletic journalists. The ordeal, while not particularly as challenging as I’m making out, served as an amusing prelude to the experience that awaited at the top.
Despite its structural completion on the outside, the interior of the ship was a hive of activity, with corridors of bare steel and the hustle of workers laying the groundwork for its sophisticated systems. It’s more building site than battle-ready, but it’s already starting to look the part.
The Type 26 mission bay, still very much a work in progress, hinted at the ship’s versatile capabilities, from amphibious operations to humanitarian aid, via the use of a crane that allows the vessel to load itself at ports rather than rely on port infrastructure. However, it was the gearbox that really underscored the ship’s strategic silence. Rubber-fitted pipe brackets and meticulously designed noise-dampening measures were evidence of the painstaking efforts to minimise those acoustic signatures I keep going on about.
Perhaps it was because I was so awe-struck that I bumped my head and dropped a pen; I wonder if BAE will let me back onboard to find it.
The world’s best anti-submarine warfare frigate
Before our tour, Sir Simon Lister, BAE Systems Naval Ships MD, eloquently captured the essence of our visit and the heart of HMS Cardiff’s design philosophy. While onboard, I really started to understand what he meant when he said how important every little detail was. Here’s what he told us.
“The Type 26 is an anti-submarine warfare frigate designed specifically to deal with the submarine threat present for the United Kingdom and for NATO. It is without doubt one of the best, if not the best anti-submarine warfare platforms in the world. It will hunt submarines more effectively than almost any other surface ship I can conceive of, and that is why it has been attractive to the Australians, to the submarine threat that they face and the Canadians for the threat they face.
What distinguishes it is its acoustic performance. It’s designed to be very stealthy. And the way that you hold an enemy submarine risk is with two main characteristics. One is that you have a sonar that is very sensitive. In this ship, there is both a bow and a towed array that are very effective and have been developed over many years by the United Kingdom.
The other characteristic is that the ship itself is quiet. Because your ability to detect an enemy submarine and the sensitivity of the sonar critically depends on the silence of the platform that is towing the towed arrays, and that gives you a sonar range advantage over the enemy and allows you to detect and localise that submarine.”
Britain can still do some things right
The Type 26 frigate exemplifies the zenith of anti-submarine warfare. It is a thoroughbred. Every aspect of the ship, from propulsion to waste management, is fine-tuned for acoustic stealth, ensuring that it remains a ghost in the oceans, undetectable by enemy subs, while casting a wide net with its own proven, sensitive sonars.
This ship represents a leap in anti-submarine warfare and a testament to the innovative spirit driving UK naval design. Despite ongoing questions over defence spending or recruitment, I’m confident this country is still very good at designing ships. HMS Cardiff, with its cavernous interiors and meticulous attention to detail, is a true embodiment of modern maritime capability and, dare I say it, technological supremacy.
Wot no photos!😂 good piece and a testament to you and your site to get an invitation to tour the ship👌
I’ll second that. George and team have created a well respected defence news site largely in their spare time..!
Quite the achievement.
Cheers CR
Agreed, a well deserved recognition.
And the same from SA-well done George and thanks for the update.
Oh I will jump on the bandwagon. Well done to the website folks.
Sensitive security secrets no doubt.
Great insight George. We certainly can still build incredible warships.
We might be very good at designing ships but on the whole we don’t build them for anyone. Why does Spain, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, etc have thriving ship exporting yards and we don’t?
They have state owned or subsidised yards, and subsidise foreign military purchases – see France’s recent success with Rafale and Scorpene. It’s the only way they can compete. Our designs, particularly Type 26 and Type 31, have had export success regardless
Same reason the US does not export ships. Our ships have been built very high end because that’s what we need. Most countries that can afford ships that high end will build them themselves.
That’s likely to change though with the T31 and Babcock in the middle of the market and their probably good potential for T32.
Yes I think an important factor too that’s given an advantage to France, Spain and Italy in particular is their historical efforts in providing through life management and infrastructure support as part of the contract that has allowed them to reduce the upfront costs and make it back over the lifespan of the project while setting up capabilities in those buying Countries that put them into a strong position to attain new and follow up contracts. France does this with Rafale too. It is good to see that belatedly we have cottoned on and Babcock in particular is going down this route and expanding its facilities management side generally and certainly in Australia Bae and Rolls Royce are upping their game somewhat it seems especially due to AUKUS projects.
Many of the warships France sells abroad and almost all the fighter jets are being heavily subsidised by the French state.
I don’t think I like to see our military capabilities reduced to pay for other militaries stuff.
Defence exports are high end if you’re doing design work and selling missiles and sensors.
If you exporting big steel boxes it’s probably an industry you can do without.
Depends which department subsidises, if it the MoD then its a no. But if its another department then it actually benefits the defence budget as the cost per unit should reduce.
Sir Humphrey would be proud of that kind of logic 😀
As a tax payer I’m not so sure.
Firstly, I am not an economist or I a banker, so give me some latitude.
State support by other governments appears to be tolerated by just about everyone until it comes to the UK giving it and this is what I do not understand. The EU kept banging the compete without State aid drum. Those having it resulted unfair competition and big fines from them and tariffs from others such as the US. Look at Rover as an example. BLiar and Brown couldn’t bail it out or nationalise it we were told because of the EU’s rules on State aid and how it affected the market. The result was 12,000 people lost their jobs and an important manufacturing industry went for a burton. The same for British Steel. I can only assume the same applies from shipbuilding to jet engines to the production of steel. Why is it the UK sticks to the rules of “fair play” and every other country doesn’t?
I come from the Detroit of the UK where a whole host of manufacturers were allowed to go bust because the government couldn’t/wouldn’t give any state aid. We lost Peugeot, Jaguar, Rover, Morris, Massey Ferguson, Standard, Triumph, Rootes Group, GEC, Dunlop, Rolls Royce etc. These manufacturers employed over 120,000 people just in one city. Expanding that to the UK then we’ve got a multitude of ship builders British steel, John Brown, Swann Hunter, Pearson Engineering, etc.
France, Italy, The Netherlands, Germany, Spain, Poland and The USA, all have their own core industries protected. Not the UK, we let ours go.
The reality is the UK government could have, there are so many exclusions and exceptions around a lot of the competition rules…the UK very much believed in the idea of the free market global economy and purists neoliberalism….so where others used the rules to protect and support, the UK went down the if it died it died…..which was unfortunate as our industries ended up competing with other industries that had state aid that allowed them to market dump or simple slave level economies where profoundly cheap labour made it impossible to compete…Especially a free market only works if it’s a level playing field and it’s not really been that way..ever..but then British industrial dominance came about due to protective market practices….
100% agree, the UK has for far too long been ruled by idealistic free market dogma. It’s totally self sabotaging because there is no free market when you are the only one playing by the rules. In terms of defense, it’s also very dumb from a sovereignty perspective. Even the mighty USA now shows itself to be a less than reliable partner.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I cant think of one example where the EU didn’t act against the UK’s interest. Well rid.
Well, I’m of the view that government budgets rarely decrease, so as a tax payer my burden will not reduce so all I can hope for is reallocation of my funds to something that makes more sense to me😅
There’s more than an outside possibility that T26 will win an actual export build order from Norway. And Australia will be looking for AAW destroyers after that, to coincide with T83.
So although the UK yards have gone through a dark patch, the recent investments in capacity are well timed, particularly for the top end platforms.
Good article George and well.done for your efforts that have made UKDJ worthy of the invite to tour the ship.
Let’s hope that this class of ships actually work and that their operational availability will be an improvement on the T45’s, three of which remain alongside waiting their PIP
Said 3 are in various stages of PIP refit. Dragon has finished having the equipment installed and its in the water. But yes it’s taking a while.
Fair point but it does need to be pointed out that the mythical engineering capabilities of the Germans has been plagued with terrible availability of many of their platforms and a few years back even the US couldn’t find a carrier to operate in the Atlantic when the planned Carrier ‘steamed’ out of port and broke down in days with potential replacements all laid up undergoing refits or having parts transferred to other more deemed needy vessels. You can see why they are so keen on our carriers to be available but puts into perspective our own natural cynicism about our own platform reliability.
Good points.
We do seem to have a serious downer on ourselves sometimes.
There is much that needs putting right right across the board, but we are perfectly capable of putting things right if only we could develop a more can do attitude.
Ship building is currently showing what can happen if someone at the top delivers orders and works to some sort of strategy. It’s not a magic wand but at least it sets you in the right direction.
Now we just need to order a few more ships going forward to make sure this isn’t another boom in a boom and bust cycle.
Cheers CR
What.! Other nations carriers breakdown. Some make out it’s a uniquely U.K. issue😂😂😂
It’s not a high bar, but dare I suggest the Admiral Kuznetsov as a fine example of other countries carriers breaking down.
People seem to think its only the UK with such problems. The reality is, everyone with high end capability has these issues.
The T45 was a massive leap in technology and as the decision to fit it was taken pretty late in the design process, so no real time to properly test it shoreside. The recuperator had a fundamental design flaw (US design and build), it led to all sorts of complex issues, which are now being resolved.
Its a mistake that isn’t being repeated the T26 is all provided by RR.
The T26 on the other hand is powered by very well known and reliable power sources that are proven to work. RR MT30 GT are in widespread use by RN, USN, RoKN, JMSDF and MM they work and do very well. The DG side of the system is most widely used Naval Marine Diesel in the world namely MTU 4000. It’s reliable, powerful and efficient combination with the RR MT30 that is already in service with the RoKN.
The planed “shoreside” testing of the T45 propulsion was cancelled by politicians in order to save money.
Yep !
The opposite is in the US where the Constellation class are delayed as Congress has insisted on the “New to the USN” propulsion system being shoreside tested.
They really got burned by the LCS1 and Ford class, but CODLAG and components are all well proven elsewhere.
To be fair all ships break down…all ship designs have issues…if your lucky it does not cause the ship to founder….just look at the USN lastest 13billion dollar carrier..it can still only manage air operations five days out of seven…due to catapult failure.. had to have it’s main weapons lifts replaced, jet deflectors replaced and uncounted other minor issues…or the German navies frigate…that was so defective they refused to commission it and sent it back to the yard ( a permanent list and faulty opps room meant it was not safe to operate)..the whole class ended up overweight and underpowered with no space for upgrading its very sparse weapons fit ( a medium gun, two point defence missile launchers and 8 harpoons…in a 7000 ton hull).
just look at the USN lastest 13billion dollar carrier..it can still only manage air operations five days out of seven…due to catapult failure. Where did you read that?
there are a number of reports including a very good one that is open source and for congress.
Great article George. T26 is a fantastic ship…best of British engineering. BAe should display a sign ‘ your taxes at work’ 🙂
I hope they find that pen of yours soon George. I’d hate to think that it finds its way through the nooks and crannies into that high tech waste management system you speak of – and then bungs it up so stopping the ship from putting to sea.
Imagine 5 years time: “we are getting a clear target Captain but there must be a bug because it’s telling us it’s a micro sub or drone and it’s inside the ship. Better return to the yard strip everything down and rebuild the ship Sir she’s useless as is.” No problem should be back in service by 2040 as the most expensive ship ever built.
I hope George’s pen wasn’t made in China!
Even worse, in ten years time HMS Cardiff has to enter dry dock because a niggling rattle keeps on being picked up by its sonar and try as they might, they cannot find it. Expect a knock at the door with a bill for the work it took removing machinery to get to the annoying rattle.
Is anything lost if you know where it is
Imagine the embarrassment as in a few years UKDJ runs the story “Frigate pulls out of deployment following object stuck in bilges”!
Nice one George, well done you and well done BAE. Hope all goes well with the Australian and Canadian builds and if the UK can get the 5 for Norway that’ll be some extra icing on the T26 🛳 🎂! 1-2 more for the RN would be awesome if monies allow and pending T31/32’s.
Did you glean any date as to when she will go into the water?
Probably depends as and when they find his pen, it’s rattling around will be the loudest thing on the ship.
There was a story years ago about Rolls-Royce. An review about one model said that the car was very quiet, the loudest item was the clock ticking on the dashboard. R-R replied to the review apologising about the clock and said they were redesigning it. OK, 99% certain not true, but I still like the idea…
Well done George. I’ve a wee feeling you were impressed, eh? BZ. 👍 Pity you couldn’t get loose amongst the F35 nest for a rumble 😁🙃🕳️
So why are we only having 8 again!
At least it’s better than 5! Lol. 😆
Money simple as that ! They are very expensive ships to build due to the tech being inserted.
It’s amazing how many navy’s especially Australia seem to have instantly forgotten the submarine threat and are now focused on pumping as many missiles on warships as possible as this is the way to “win a war” apparently.
The world of YouTube arm chair admiral sock puppets that rates a warship and navy purely on the basis of the number of VLS silos it has seems to be in government now making decisions.
While Chinas SSN are a joke they won’t be that way for ever and the SSK’s would be the biggest barrier to the USN in the SCS.
Russias surface fleet has ceased to exist but its underwater fleet remains formidable.
Any navy without a significant and robust ASW capability is not a navy.
Just ask Argentina how useful aircraft carriers, big cruisers and expensive air warfare destroyers with lots of missiles are when the other guy has SSN’s and you lack ASW.
Fortunately the T26 continues what we started with T23 in having the absolute quietest frigate in the world able to operate the world’s best towed array sonar and best ASW helicopter.
At £750 million each for the second batch they are also a reasonable price given their size and capability.
I don’t think however given their vast size that we should stop calling them frigates and start calling them destroyers.
the naming conventions is as you say very interesting..in reality the RN of 2030 will be an all cruiser navy..it’s smallest escort will be a 7000 ton, Heavily armed warship with a range of 10,000 miles..and space for lots of expeditionary capability…
infact the USN has a spasm over this very “what do you name a large surface combatant” issue in the 1970s. it ended up designating all its carrier escorts as frigates…so the huge cruiser sized destroyer leader, guided missile , nuclear nuclear propulsion ( DLGN) and destroyer leaders, guided missile (DLG)..all became frigates…the USN had another spasm and then decided all these frigates were now cruisers….so the 10,000 ton nuclear powered Virginia class cruisers and all its peers…went from destroyers to frigates to cruisers in the matter of a few years….the ticos were never meant to be cruisers but got re designated from destroyers to cruisers….then the USN completely lost its love for calling ships cruisers and now even calls its 13,000 ton beasts destroyers…
The RN has not in its time been anymore consistent…the whole frigates do ASW and destroyers do AAW is relatively new….the RN still had Air defence frigates in 1982…
Fascinating insight.
If course GB can still do something right!!! This is a great country, no matter what the 5th columnists with an agenda say.
I doubt the RN will get more, I’d actually prefer more lower end vessels like T31B2 to boost overall numbers.
Hi Daniele,
I’d settle for a fleet of 8’s. 8 – T26, 8 – T31 and 8 – T83 whatever the latter turns out to be. 24 escorts compared to what we have at the moment would be a big step forward. However, I do have doubts as to whether such a fleet is really big enough going forward, but I won’t be around to worry about it.
Of course, the big potential disruptive technology is likely to be autonomous platforms and its application to crewed ship…
Right now I just hope the politicians keep with the shipbuilding strategy and maintain a steady drum beat of new ships.
Cheers CR
Always assuming we have the crews, I’d agree on total number, but go with an 8:10:6 ratio; T83 will be essentially escorting a CSG or maybe leading a task group- it shouldn’t be doing much else. I really see them as something of an equivalent to the USN Ticonderogas rather than Burkes (or at least a halfway between). 6 of them gives us sufficient for those tasks.
We should bear in mind that part of the issue with availability for T45s has been that one has been tied up for a number of years due to lack of crew- let alone the PIP upgrades taking longer than expected. Plus, due to lack of GP frigates, they’ve been doing drug busts in the Carribbean and suchlike. If we had sufficient people and managed through-life upgrades better, and had sufficient hulls for the less specialist tasks, then I think we’d find that 6 would probably do us alright. Like Daniele, I find the value in a larger number of GP frigates.
Certainly agree re Tico Vs AB. Now we have carriers we can see already that CSGs are measured against the number of escorts available. Having “full escorts” with top rate coverage so you can have 1 at least per CSG is much more important than top trumps hull numbers.
For your 10 to make up the numbers I would say to have the T31 replace River II globally and have at least 12 of them. In that case it would be possible to buy 4 or so with Smart-L MM radars with basic ABM capability and wide area defence. That paired with CAMM-MR or even Aster would be the 2nd rate air defence to cover LRGs and other less important escort roles
Agree mate. I’d bite the hand off just for that. More tier 1 vessels than tier 2 though so I’d add 3 more RB2. 😏 Then we have 16 if each group for covering high end carrier, amphib groups and the lower presence roles.
My concern is, from what we read here, T83 costs are ridiculous.
Sooner or later the military is going to have to come to a better balance between quality and quantity. We might have some of the world’s most capable assets but if they’re so few that’s the huge problem.
Simple solution is don’t develop a new design. That’s a Billion £ saved.
Pre WW2 we developed our ideal Destroyer for RN use, the A Class so built 8 plus a Leader, then next order an improved version B, and so on. Nowadays we never look at what we already have and see if it can just be improved, we always want something brand new and shiny.
Just look at what the T45 is evolving into, it’s pretty good for 7.5k tons. The design costs are covered, we know how to build them, they now work (🤞🏻). And once all uplifts are done they pack quite a wallop.
Just announced we’ll be exercising regularly in the pacific with US and Japan from 2025. So having a few more hulls would be a good thing.
Mmm yes they seem to be in full stutter mode at the moment, they have absolutely nothing new or positive to say. If you check a few of the recent “announcements” they are actually re announcements of previous ones.
They just think we are all stupid and think, wow that’s fantastic News, when in reality it’s just old News.
CSG25 going out to the Pacific next year was announced in Dec 2023. If you stick CSG25 in the UKDJ search box you can travel back in time and read the original announcement.
Politicians have to say something 🥴
Yes, but they seem to be making a long term commitment. So the way I see it is Tories are settling up for when they’re in opposition. Making these agreements with the US and Japan means Labour has to honour it or pull out. Healey already criticised sending assets east so he’sgoing to have to weighup strategy over key allies. If Labour pulls out Tories can use the opportunity to criticise Labour as letting down key allies. All part of the game that both sides play.
They’ve been doing quite a bit of this recently, like saying they’re committed to more F35, T32, etc. They know its going to be tough to afford all this but it won’t be their problem. As they’re certainly going to lose, they can almost behave like the opposition, make pledges knowing they won’t be delivering them.
It’s the fleet you can afford verses the threat you face. The only threat to us is the Russian navy which is old, tiny and crap.
Ukraine defeated their second biggest fleet with a couple of Storm shadows and Jet Skis. I can’t see them standing up to the RN in the Baring Sea much less all of NATO.
24 is plenty, it’s SSN’s we need if we are actually fighting a war.
Agreed, the SSN is the Ace. As I often mention, I prioritise 4 areas of the RN, none of which are escorts.
1.Carriers and carrier aviation.
2.SSN.
3.Amphibious and the RM
4.The RFA.
These for me are the core and the escorts bind the lot together.
Sadly the present government since 2010 has dismantled much of 3 and 4.
Agree however with the Tides and the FSSS the RFA is about to get a massive boost. Seems we are doomed to go in waves with capabilities being gapped and run down then replaced by bigger and better only to see something else fall down.
I broadly agree with your list as an interim measure, Daniele.
However, in the longer term I believe we will need to add convoys to the list. Not just troop convoys from North America, but also supply convoys to our shores for well established reasons.
Currently, the USN has about 90 escorts and is increasingly facing off against China which means Europe needs to step up. As we are an island nation with strong maritime history and a damn good, if small(ish), navy we should look to play a leading role in providing proper maritime security to merchant ships. It’s in our best interest after all.
One problem we face these days is the size of the merchant ships compared to previous Battles of the Atlantic. Sink one of the massive 100k ton container ships and a huge amount of material is lost. Not only that but it will take years to build a replacement ship or ships.
The real threat to these ships is the SSGN with long range anti ship missiles. Whilst targeting the merchant will not be easy the defenders have to get lucky every time whilst the attackers only have to be lucky occasionally. The range of the missiles is such that if a sub gets out into the shipping lanes the area around a ship or convoy that you need to search is huge.
So some sort of point defence will be need provided. That might mean a Tier 2 type ship with a flexible mission bay capable of carrying a suitable point defence system (air and/or subsurface(?)), a containerised point defence system plonked on top of those huge piles of containers on the container ship or some other approach not yet dreamed up.
The point is no, and I mean no one, seems to mention convoys. Rarely if ever on here and I cannot remember any HMG/RN or NATO official mentioning convoys in the last 30 years or so.
That tells me they ain’t high on anyone’s agenda. I consider that to be a monumental lapse in judgement.
The number of ships to be sunk is actually very small compared to the 1940’s because the ships are so huge and in reality our supply chains are so ‘ financially efficient’ these days they lack any kind of physical redundancy. Wouldn’t take much to cause serious economic and therefore defence industrial disruption. Just look at the disruption caused by the Houthis? It’s not as if they have sunk millions of tons of shipping, they have just forced most of it to go around the Cape..!
We are not done with convoys or choke points yet.
Sorry, rather blahhed on here… but it rattles my cage when that we seem to have forgotten the one thing that frightened Churchill. A single red line on a graph of monthly tonnage lost in the Atlantic…
Cheers CR
With convoys we are talking ww3 and thus expansion into fantasy budgets and fleets, which no politician will entertain. So my list is based on the now and I try, as always, to remain realistic.
But as you say, we are an island, we depend on imports, thus we need a strong RN.
It was their 3rd actually Northern, then Pacific, then Black Sea and Baltic last. It is that way because the SSBN fleet is split between the Northern and Pacific Fleets and need protecting.
Quite right Daniele, wonder how much praise and journalism from the BBC – fifth columnists in my book! – will be deducted to the subject?
Cheers
George
I’m reading we are currently 4th biggest exporter? I keep looking for a BBC report on that, and yet to find anything.
Now, why is that?
The BBC can’t report such information, anything that’s positive must be buried. 😀
The thing is, I often get into this subject then people tell me I’m, in effect, a paranoid right wing loon. And that there isn’t such a thing going on with our media.
I try to be convinced that maybe they’re right ( on the media bit not the loon!! ), and then this. Explain, somebody, when positive news is as important as bad where IS IT?
You may well be a paranoid right wing looney but your not wrong 😀
This largely started with the Financial Times in 2016 after Brexit. London based media went out of its way to find any kind of fault it could with the UK that could be blamed on Brexit/torys/colonialism etc
Russian, Chinese and Indian propaganda jumped on the bandwagon after that.
Honestly the comments I get from people in Singapore and the USA about the UK are ridiculous. Like we ran out of food and medicine type comments. All gleamed from the media insight.
Walk down any city centre in the USA, France or Germany, see the tent cities filled with refugees, mentally ill and drug addicts then come back and tell me how the UK is failing.
Then try and board any form of public transport in those countries and or visit a hospital and tell me how the UK has uniquely fallen.
It’s all nonsense.
Good Morning Daniele,
I for one don’t think you are, and that’s why I just try to offer a bit of counter balance for your consideration. And to cheer you up a bit 😎
A few posts back I mentioned that You Gov polls were strongly suggesting that Defence is actually figuring in a lot of voters thoughts re the next GE.
It is my firm opinion that Labour have twigged that one of the main reasons they got hammered in the last GE was that their traditional voters (folks who work) just couldn’t vote for Corbyn (nor Foot, Kinnock for same reasons).
As for BBC News they have today reported that Keir Starmer has firmly come out in the Daily Mail (Blue to the core) in favour of CASD and nuclear weapons. But he has also matched the Tory fudge of we want to get up to 2.5% of GDP as soon as resources are available. They even mentioned that Clement Atlee was responsible for Britains Nuclear weapons. If I didn’t know better I’d think they are possibly Labour supporters (which they can’t possibly be as they are impartial).
Ed Davey 🥴 has challenged both of them to make it a firm commitment.
I think they may actually be reading the same polls as me, but let’s see what they actually stick in their manifestos. As for the present Government I think they are a lost cause and are just going through the motions, which is why we are getting never ending re announcements of previous announcements and zero new actions. They just praying we get a little bit of growth for an Autumn bribe and 🤞🏻that works.
GE’s in this country are never won by Party Members (we aren’t tribal like the US), but having the majority of the floating voters onside. And that comes down to trust, get the people’s Trust and you win simple as that.
John Cleese is by his own admission an old fashioned Liberal, and thinks that most voters in U.K. are as well.
He described us as slightly left of centre on Social / Moral issues and slightly right of centre on Defence, L&O and Nationalism. Which explains the Brexit result pretty nicely !
Starmer also mentioned that they will have a Defence review to look at where our priorities are. If I were a betting man it would be that other than the SSN being stationed in Australia we will see us pull back to Europe except for periodic CSG deployments to the Far East. Funny thing is I suspect the US would give us a big round of applause for doing it.
What I would actually like to see is an act of Parliament that states in Law that we spend £2.5% of GDP on Defence but 3% for the next 5 years to plug the funding gaps and uplift to a sustainable level. Oh and shift CASD back to the Treasury.
And something like that may not be too fanciful ! A
A couple of weeks ago I was listening to Today on Radio 4 and the Labour Shadow Health Minister was being gently grilled. I nearly spat my Tea out when he told them what he wants to do with the NHS and Care.
Instead of just throwing money at it, he wants to invite all the Political Parties to take part in a grown up discussion regarding fundamental reform, priorities and funding and then implement a National plan to achieve it. Which would be backed by the opposition ! Now how would that work in Defence.
Starmer in the Daily Mail and Defence spending mentioned by the BBC. I must be dreaming 🤔
Hi mate.
Good on the 2.5, if it ever happens. I’d prefer to see a force structure committed to rather than these % which we know mostly go on other things than the conventional military, but yes it’s something, IF it happens.
“Pull back to Europe”
So goodbye Brueni, Singapore, Deigo Garcia, the sites in Oman, Ascension, Belize, and what else?
Brueni for starters has the army JWS and the SF jungle phase is there. What happens to that?
For me, Starmer can say what he likes, it’s actually DOING it that counts.
How many of his front bench voted against renewing Trident in 2016? Several of them.
As the UK pulls back, China and Russia fill any vacuum, we should be engaged in the grey zone in these areas of the world, not withdrawing.
So that by definition also makes LRG(S) redundant, and some of the Ranger Bns in the SOB which are assigned Asia and Africa.
As for the 2025 CSG deployment I’ll be amazed if it happens, Healey has already said he prefers it in the N Atlantic.
Such a withdrawal will have consequences for the military that are probably quite beyond Kier Starmer.
Oh and I forgot to add Kenya. So the army hot weather terrain training for Light Infantry goes with the jungle capability.
I know you will hate this but other than our commitment to Australia a retrenchment to Europe and the Atlantic is on the cards. It’s an inevitable consequence of the reduced forces we have now. correct, But we do still own some damned important bits of real estate and would be nuts to relinquish them.
Overseas what is actually important to us are the Falklands, Gibralter, Cyprus and Ascension.
Diego Garcia is vitally important to the US (I think we just have a few bods there to put a flag up and remind them to pay the rent).
Brunei is vitally important to the Sultan of Brunei and I’m pretty sure he funds it, so keep that one and we van train for Jungle warfare.
Singapore or Australia ? We are committed to the latter by AUKUS and having an SSN out there is a far better use of resources than an office in Singapore. God knows how much we have to pay anyone to be based there, its astronomically expensive.
Belize ? Seems pointless as we have no strategic interests there and as for the training just use Brunei.
Kenya just leave it alone, Cyprus is plenty hot for warm weather training. Talking of which I’d actually add some cold weather, ski for the Army in Norway / Finland / Poland because that’s where NATO wants them deployed.
As for Bahrain and Oman well in reality what use are they ?
We have a T45 to the Arabian Ocean, we spent a lot of money setting up facilities to provide support for such a deployment. Instead we chose Gib to rearm, refit and give the crew safe R&R. Quite when push came to shove we realised that the world has changed and any ships based there or just docked are sitting ducks.
If there is just one place I could upgrade it would be the bases on Cyprus, it’s an absolute Strategic Diamond. So a decent pier for RO/RO and refuelling at Akrotiri and I’d ask the US if they would like to co fund an ABM warning Radar and comms nodes up at RAF Troodos. Mind you I’d also ask them if they fancy basing some AAW / ABM missiles at Akrotiri (as we seem completely useless in that regard).
IMHO the best thing we can do is concentrate on the Atlantic, Med, Europe and Artic Oceans. By doing so we allow the US to concentrate on China and Iran.
You mention LRG(S) being redundant, in the last couple of months it effectively had a bad case of infanticide due to financial negligence. You can’t have 2 LRGs without the necessary ships or crews.
RFA Argos and 3 RFA Bays plus the points, it’s just a really bad clutching at straws idea. Unless we either get one of the LPDs back into commission short term and actually fund 6 MRSS it’s not realistic. It doesn’t exactly help that the RFA has been shafted for 30 years and are now either walking with their feet or voting to strike.
As for the long running argument about Defence spending I actually think it’s time to go down the Italian route that they use quite successfully.
The Military and Political Parties agree the Nations Force Structure, Parliament converts that into law and the funding is provided straight off the top of the National Budget.
FYI they are funding a pretty major uplift in their Navy 1 New 38k tonne LHD, 3 16.5K tonne LPD, 2/4 new large AAW Destroyers (4/6 Total), 2 Extra FREMM (12 in total), 4 New SSK (8 in total), 4 extra Light Frigates (7 in total), 8 European Patrol Corvettes.
Different way of doing things and their economy benefits as everything is 100% built in Italy.
Agree on NHS reform, quite something if it ever happens. CASD to HMT, acts of Parliament, yep love all of it but I don’t see it ever happening.
I shall remain suspicious until 2025 and their “Defence Review” I’m afraid.
If they commit to reversing the decline in the RFA and our amphib fleet I’d be a lot more impressed. I
If bases beyond Europe go to, well that’s pretty much it for the UK Mil as they are one asset that give us the reach and logistic tail.
9th larget manufacture in the world and bigger than China on per capita basis. Just 0.1% behind France who are massively protectionist. Be hey there’s no story in those numbers. And thats with carrying serveral miilion who aren’t in work(lets not get into the reasons), solve that problem and we’d be flying.
Oh, but I like to go into the reasons.
So many people too “disabled” to work. They need to be properly assessed and those who are deemed fit to work should be sent out to find work.
My own brother is one of these lazy slobs.
I think the IMF has just backed you up with their latest statement. It’ll be interesting what the political class say, they seem happy to quote bodies like the IMF when it suits them but then seem to have hearing difficulties when it doesn’t.
The IMF aid surprisingly well staffed with Russian economists and has had a bit of a fetish for UK bashing for several years now.
If you look at how far off they are on UK projection is ridiculous.
Yep but it never stopped either political party quoting them when it suits them.
You know we have one of the highest worker participation rates in the OECD though right. It’s a myth that the UK has such people and others don’t.
We have less than most other countries.
But it is true that out of population of 67 million people in the UK, only 33.04 million are either employed or self-employed. That’s slightly under half the population.
6.3 million on disability benefit in the UK. That’s equivalent to 1/5 of the entire working population. That’s unsustainable and needs to change.
Yes but it’s a rate much higher than the OECD average and much higher than it was in the past, that non work ratio includes most people under 21, stay at home mothers and the elderly.
Also a good chunk of people who are just rich enough to not work.
I know quite a few people who just stopped working or have cut their hours as taxation means its not worth it. Once you hit 45k your handing half of it back so they prefer not to work at the reduced hourly rate.
Seve, to be objective, we should filter and reduce the 67 million to 18+ and remove the number of those on retirement pensions. That’s a more representative number of those on benefits. Nonetheless ,your point is off course valid!
And yet the bbc can show us the Hamas bloke getting told his kids have been killed😡 sorry but who’s bothered about that!
Seriously what’s one got to do with the other, do you think the BBC should hide kids getting killed? Is that what you’re advocating?
Was that a newsworthy happening to be reported on the BBC? It’s a pity they seem to have forgotten a true genocide going on in Ukraine! I really don’t give a toss about a terrorists kids getting killed while he is safely tucked away out off Gaza!
They are not only terrorist “kids”, the “kids” are themselves terrorists but since BBC supports the enemy they don’t tell you that.
No reply to that never a justification for killing children no matter what their parents may have done.
Didn’t you get the message Danielle, “we’re all doomed” 😀
Totally agree with what you say, I returned to the UK in the middle of COVID after being away for 20 years and this country is the best overall in the world. Not to say it doesn’t have is challenges, like everywhere it does but i never come across a group of people like the British people that have so much and complain so regularly and our London media is the absolute worse for that.
I lived in Singapore, the USA, Germany and France all of which are much worse off in most regards than the UK.
The USA in particular is the absolute worse, I love the American people and apparently on paper America is the richest G7 nation but it does not feel like that when you live there for sure. Germany and France pay too much tax and have serious issues with the rule of law and Singapore is just depressing these days.
Yep, heard much the same from my Dad, who says how lucky we are to live in this country.
Interesting. Are there 2 Jims that post of here.
I also live way for a long time, most Middle East, Asia with a stint in Central America. Really opens your eyes and your see the bigger picture. My partner also non European and they laugh at the way we beat ourselves up for absolutely no reason.
Was offered job in the states once, went out there to see what it would be like, it looked pretty good certainly the size of house I would have been able to afford was much bigger than here. I also remember the factory where I was going was considerable more advance than the site in the UK making the same products.
I think there is a Jim with a small j as well.
No disrespect to the USA but my experience is houses a large but in the middle of nowhere and if you want a pint of milk or to go anywhere your in a car much of the time and commutes are hell.
If your in an CBD like NY,LA or Sanfran then your paying eye watering prices for accommodation that’s sub standard by UK standards and you have to put up with street conditions that make a Batman movie look nice.
The USA is suppose to have a per capita GDP 40% higher than ours but other than the vast cost of their medical and higher education system it’s difficult for me to see how that’s the case.
The UK scores much better in HDI index than any other G7 (about same as Germany) country including the US, that’s a much better metric to use to see how well off people really are.
US per capita is influenced by some very high net worth individuals. They also have some industries that are probably unrivalled like the film industry which generate high revenues. Although some of my Bollywood loving Indian mates will disagree 😅
I will admit where I was looking at was 40 minutes from a big city.. There seemed to be plenty of facilities though. Wasn’t for ne though I like some aspect of the culture but not enough to move their.
If the UK is such a great place to live and is so much wealthier (by UN standards anyway) than the US than you don’t need the US to protect you or station its forces on your territory.
If you think most American houses are in communities located in the middle of nowhere than you it’s obvious your knowledge of the US comes from Hollywood movies.
N.B. The cost for one year at University of Texas at Austin or UCLA is half the cost of one year at Oxford.
I can confirm Daniel that we don’t need US protection or US forces stationed in the UK. (There are very few US forces in the UK FYI) You may not be aware of this as your geography’s skills may be limited based on where you come from but the UK is an island located many thousands of miles away from Russia, China or Iran and far out of any hostile actors reach, what’s more the UK has the largest navy in Europe and its most advanced Airforce and highly trained army and massive nuclear weapon system. It needs no protection from anyone.
My reference to over priced higher education was in reference to Ivy Leauge schools, not to dish the University of Texas but I have not seen it in any leauge tables near Oxford. Also it may surprise you to know that no one in the UK actually pays upfront for university including Oxford. I myself live in Scotland where university is completely free.
I lived for quite some time over the last ten years in the US, love the people but I don’t think anyone can pretend that the US is not dealing with some serious social issues.
We don’t need the US forces to protect us, we have managed just fine for 100’s of years stopping any invasion of the UK, plus who is going to invade us?
There isn’t a single hostile nation with the military capabilities to invade the UK
But it’s extremely advantageous for the US to have an unsinkable one hundred billion trillion ton aircraft carrier in the North Atlantic, just off of mainland Europe, so if your honest, US forces are here for the benefit of the US,not to protect the UK, which clearly does not need protecting.
That said I welcome our American friends and cousins here, and long
may it continue to be
We’ve managed for 100s of years, sorry but without US economics help in WW2 we were dead in the water. Yes we won the battle of Britain but we would have never held out indefinitely.
Absolutely, just look at industires like Motorsport, with F1 even those that are run by foreign companies do a large % of the work here.
I doubt anyone will make any decisions regarding more ships anytime soon. There are IMHO 3 factors that will influence what choices are made.
As for numbers I have my own thoughts and I’d like to add 2 more T26 and 3 T31B2.
That takes us back up to 24 surface warships, which is sufficient to deal with anything in NATO area and escort a CSG. But it all depends on the 3 Factors.
As for the T32 well I’m pragmatic as I’d actually build a smaller Global Corvette to replace the RiverB2 OPV on foreign stations. We forget that we may be “Cash Poor but are Asset Rich” we have the Worlds 2nd largest overseas EEZ and we do naff all to protect it.
So something 3/3.5K tons, 50/60 crew with decent radar, a Helicopter, 76mm gun and some lightweight missiles.
And as for the River B2 back home to the patrol our coastlines.
Oh and Good Afternoon 😉
Tend to agree your idea for +2 T26. I think the first question we need to answer is
‘ how many ASW ships do we need?’ If the answer is more than 8, the next question is, should the additional ASW hulls be T26 or T31 or T31 with gucci quieting?
A batch 3 River with a 57mm and a hanger is worth thinking , about but i suspect using the early “non Mk41′ T31s might make more sense.
Agree re early T31, that’s a reasonable “patrol frigate” that can at least defend itself against a Houthi-style unprovoked attack.
Also it shouldn’t be difficult to enlarge the forwards boat bays on either side to hold 12m boats, as AH140 says you can fit a mission bay without extending the hull. You effectively only put the two ends of the bay in with CAMM in between. That goes some way to replacing MCMVs especially if ordered in numbers.
I can’t claim my instincts are any more accurate than anyone elses but I would go with ABCs idea on T26. For all I know there is a NATO level plan to control the North Atlantic with UK, Canadian and Norwegian Type 26s and P8s. All above my qualifications and pay grade. Just saying that if it is decided that if the UK needs more surface vessel ASW capacity then do we use T26 or T31?
Regarding MCMV it seems to me that in buying Sterling Castle and hopefully additional similar vessels the RN is prioritising its UK and overseas bases. An adversary could bottle up the entire fleet by laying mines there. Choke point passages like Hormuz are a bit different. There I agree we need to get there / be there so frigates need the organic ability to clear mines.
Afternoon mate!
Can we not keep the RB1s and leave the RB2s doing their role. And I’ll take your idea too, as long as the RN get more vessels!
I’m greedy. I’d like more of both. No, change that. I think we NEED more of both.
I’m greedier! We need more of just about everything.
That’s not greedier. It’s just going a bit off topic…
I’m interested in how an equivalent Chinese ship would compare in terms of build quality and attention to detail. They are obviously produced very quickly but how good are they under the skin? How many of the hard won lessons the RN has responded to will be featured in their design and build.
The simple answer is that no one really knows how good or bad Chinese WarShips are – the proof of the pudding is in the tasting as the saying goes.
Hopefully George gets an invite to a Chinese yard and can let us know.
Is it possible that the RN T26s will be able to have 2*4 NSMs like the Australian and Canadian ships complementing and freeing up the 3*8 MK41s to carry whatever? The NSM could still be good for up to 150+km and the FCASW for beyond that?
Someone here recently mentioned a possible Stingray based Asroc type ASW rocket? Like the sound of that. It’ll be interesting to see what the T26 finally gets fitted out with for all three user countries.
NSM is getting a bit confusing. Now the T31 are getting mk41 they will carry FC/ASW as that’s what the tubes are meant for. The same for T26; why “free up” your space for ASMs by adding ASMs?
My bet is that they will be kept on the T45s and T31s as planned. The early T31 won’t be built with mk41 so need NSM as their main armament.
I may be the guilty one re VL Stingray. BAE have made CGI of a British T26 launching the Future Light Weight Torpedo in ASROC format from the mk41 tubes. FLWT is more suited for that than stingray as it is supposed to weigh 100kg rather than 300kg.
Seems like there’s not much outfitting done , looks like another long fit out period ahead at Scotstoun whenever it gets floated out. Always the problem with warships is the time it takes to fit them out. There must be a better way to design modular units that are more completed at build phase and speed up assembly and completion . Modern computer design technology makes that possible, it would be interesting to see what is currently in use at BAE and how they use it.
Good to see the builds going well, George and his team have done brilliant by this Website, the very knowledgeable people who contribute to this site is fantastic the input is something else ,thanks George, you should be a defence minister, you are good and knowledge you have,
Hi folks hope all is well.
Great article UKDJ! Always as ever gives good quality reading especially for the likes of me who are learning about military matters.
From reading this article it would appear that the Type 26 is the most advanced in the world. That is a big statement to make and indeed happy to see this claim. However, is China building the equivalent? When scrutinising the media, it would appear they seem to give the impression that China builds fast and has the most advanced technology, the type 054A appears to be the most current? I would question this and if I recall, was there an article on here some time ago that China builds a frigate within two years. Of course the quality and finished product is a different thing. How sea worthy are such craft and would they withstand the rest of conflict in rough sea? I do have doubts about China’s claims.
Cheers
George
Hope they are ready in time when and if we need them.
Congratulations to you and UKDJ for receiving the invitation, surely a confirmation of the integrity of this blog. UKDJ is no teenage online video gamers mess hall. (The comments however …)
The country’s defences suffered a serious and lasting blow delivered by the 2010-15 Liberal Democrat-Conservative coalition government. The consequences have been addressed if not yet answered. But progress is better than inaction.
Could you ask them to please build half a dozen ferries for CalMac
British manufacturing, some of the best in the world. Now all we need is a government that can see further than the end of its nose.
Excellent piece.
Can we solve or retention and recruitment bottleback and build more please. We are going to need them.
Good news. We could do with more of them. Also every other RN escort needs at least basic ASW sonar capability.
I sympathise George, I was always banging my head on the shipyard.
How was the weight room?
Navy Lookout has an in-depth look at the T26 construction, which nicely compliments George’s excellent article. (George also gets a name-check 🙂).
Something of a mistake in once again allowing civilian press to effectively through extremely subtle means i.e allow our’ Enemies ‘ to gain vital information about the capabilities of these ships, absolute madness as regards allowing supposed official aerial photography ect and in my humble opinion (Veteran Royal Air Force M.T.D)for goodness sake wake up you lot ,yes they probably have spy satellites that gives them a reasonable idea of the capabilities (repeat) and by giving what is presumed fairly innocuous details/information once again highlights our stupidity in filling in the gaps !!! Get Real you lot whatever happened to ‘National Security’ /keep our Enemies guessing ‘ (God Save The King)