The interim anti-ship missile will fill the gap between Harpoon retiring and the ‘Future Cruise/Anti–Ship Weapon’ entering service.
Progress on the interim missile appears to be slow however, with the 2023 in service date fast aproaching.
Jeremy Quin, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, said last year:
“The Royal Navy has set the requirements for a Surface-to-Surface Guided Weapon (SSGW) to ensure they maintain the ability to deter and defeat enemy warships. A competition is now taking place and on current plans, subject to funding, we expect bids to provide a solution to SSGW, by mid-2021.“
That has not happened. However, in March this year he said:
“The interim surface-to-surface guided weapon will replace the Royal Navy’s existing Harpoon missile capability. There was a healthy response from Industry to the Pre-Qualification Questionnaire and we are planning to proceed to issue an Invitation to negotiate to the down selected bidders later this year.”
Today, Quin said:
“A timescale for an initial operating capability would be determined during a future Surface to Surface Guided Weapon (SSGW) system procurement process. An Invitation to Negotiate has not been released and it would be inappropriate to comment further on future programme timelines.”
Does this mean that the Ministry of Defence is letting this lip in favour of extening Harpoon support? In January fo this year, Babcock International announced a further contract extension has been agreed to continue in-service support to the Harpoon Missile System for the Royal Navy.
Background to the ‘Interim’ anti-ship missile
In 2019, the Ministry of Defence notified bidders of its intention to purchase an interim anti-ship missile as current Harpoon stocks reach end of life and a replacement not being due until 2030.
The Ministry of Defence issued a Prior Information Notice (PIN) for a “Next Generation Surface Ship Guided Weapon (SSGW)” to equip Royal Navy vessels. The notice is as follows:
“Short description of nature and scope of works or nature and quantity or value of supplies or services:
The Authority has a possible future requirement to procure a next generation ship launched anti-ship weapon system for use within training and operational roles with the Royal Navy. First delivery of the ship installed equipment would be required by December 2022 and first delivery of missiles would be required by December 2023. The potential contract will be for 4 years, with the potential of option years to follow (up to 9 more years), the potential contract would cover the following activities:
Manufacture and delivery of the weapon system to be delivered in Financial Year 2023/2024.
Installation of the weapon system onto Royal Navy ships. Provision and support of interface requirements to assist ships installation. Provision of train the trainer courses. Maintenance and technical support for the operational upkeep of the weapon system. Should this requirement proceed, a Contract Notice will be published in due course with more precise requirements and interested parties will be invited to complete an online pre-qualification questionnaire, which will be measured against selected criteria in terms of commercial and technical requirements.
The technical requirement will be base lined against the user requirements and include questions regarding:
— battlefield effect,
— terminal effect,
— interoperability: climatic and environment,
— munition sensitivity,
— system and design safety,
— human factors,
— deployability,
— training,
— sustainability and supply chain,
— Capability resilience and reliability.
Evidence will be required at the PQQ stage to demonstrate the weapon system can meet the Authority’s requirement set. Estimated value excluding VAT: Range: between 100 000 000 and 200 000 000 GBP”
When Harpoon exits service in 2023 there will be a serious capability gap until the potential entry into service of FC/ASW programme in 2030 if the ‘interim’ missile project does not happen, warned a report published by the Defence Committee.
What is the Future Cruise /Anti–Ship Weapon?
The FC/ASW aims to replace Storm Shadow/SCALP air launched cruise missile in operational service in the UK and France as well as Exocet anti-ship missile in France and Harpoon anti-ship missile in the UK.
Last year we reported that two years into the FC/ASW (Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon) Concept Phase, MBDA announced the successful achievement of its ‘Key Review’, jointly conducted with Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) and the Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA), the British and French armament procurement agencies.
“The conclusion of this Key Review makes it possible to select the most promising missile concepts in order to meet the requirements expressed by both nations’ armed forces. The conclusions of this study will also make it possible to establish the road maps for maturing the technologies required, and to launch any follow on assessment phase. This new phase will demonstrate the necessary maturity of the weapon system and its key components, to be followed by the development and production phase in the 2024 timeframe, so that current weapons systems can be replaced in accordance with required timescales.”
It was also stated recently by Quin that the total spend to date on Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon and associated activities by the Ministry of Defence is £95 million.
What are the options?
NavyLookout has the answer to that question here, we recommend you read their article on this.
Contenders for the Royal Navy’s interim anti-ship missile requirement
Hmm, more delays. Stupid, stupid, stupid…
This time is seems that there is some faffing going on within the MoD / RN. It is an interim missile for gods sake. Just buy a reasonable weapon that at least matches the current Harpoon capabilities and focus on the FC/ASW for all the gucci extras…
The RN needs to get a grip and get the damn requirement written and published. I bet some idiot is pushing for an all singing and dancing mega weapon… The key word is INTERIM…
Damn, me blood pressure is rising again.
CR
I can see a lot of boys on here getting ‘triggered’ by that article CR, you’ll not be the only one. 😂
PMSL… 😂
CR, Need to remember all the prats in Westminster are always only INTERIM they will never be around when anything is finally delivered…….most of the time not even from when they say we want this to the decision point.
Hi Steve, I know, that is why I have argued that there should be procurement specialists in uniform. People who have worked in industry and understand the challenges faced by engineers when the classics scholars in Civil Service and military start waving their magic wands around expecting instant results… These specialists would need the authority to nail down requirements, ensure suitable flexibility is designed in and then get the damn things delivered. They could serve in frontline units as part of their ‘basic’ training and participate in ‘refresher’ exercises to maintain some level on authority within the units, but would… Read more »
“why I have argued that there should NOT procurement specialists in uniform.”
😀
OK Daniele, this requires a seriously considered response so I’ll have get to you on this – stuff to do in the real world 🙂
Cheers CR
Oh. I maybe misunderstood your post? I thought you were making the point of being against military in procurement roles, which I was agreeing with, and had written “in uniform” in reference to them.
I agree, I think I read your meaning wrong.
Hi Daniele, In effect, yes that was what I am argueing. However, the military would not accept that for very good reasons, and frankly my experience in procurement highlighted a need for military input and participation in certain critical phases of the process. Civilians with the best will in the world cannot possibly understand the needs of the armed forces on the battlefield. Working with the military is a huge positive. However, I would not let them anywhere near the management or technical leadership of a procurement project and certainly keep them well away from contract negotiations! They are not… Read more »
Morning CR.
Some right up.
“I think the main difference between your position and mine is that I would put them in uniform to reassure the military.”
You’re mistaken. I don’t have a position, and as I said above I misread your meaning in your original post thinking you’d written it wrong…when you hadn’t….never mind!
Ah, thanks Mate,
And sorry 🙂
Cheers CR
Agreed the only parts of the process the armed forces should be involved in are the initial specification and user acceptance testing.
speciallist? we’re talking about the u.k armed forces its never had specialists and if they’re real they should be scrapped.
The thing about procurement is that it’s a specialist function all its own. As for having subject experts running a procurement all I will say is F%&k no. As a specialist on my own field I’ve been involved in lots of procurements and I will observe the following: 1) Two specialists in a field will never agree and end up arguing the weeds until split up by the procurement expert in the room. 2) If the procurement gets messed up in even the tiniest way, low will the loser take you to court and make you run the whole bloody… Read more »
Hi Jonathan,
I think I have misled you. I was using the word specialist to describe the procurement expert to use your phrase. Same meaning different word. Otherwise I suspect we would agree as I well recognise the ‘debates’ you describe. Experts or specialists always think their area is the answer to the world’s problems. As a generalist I fundementally disagree – the answer is more often than not a compromise. Seems to really irritate some people 🙂
Hope that clears it up.
Cheers CR
Yes compromises are the way to go, trouble is most people see black and white, shades of grey are so very boring. I’ve got great respect for those that have to find the compromise. I’m very lucky in that my present specific line of work is to highlight the black and white within complexity And then offer the balances so others can make moral and ethical judgements, I’m what’s called a professional Cassandra.
Hi Jonathan,
Sounds like you need to be diplomat as much as anything. Lots of luck and respect…
Another issue is that in the West we like to resolve contradictions, failing to recognise that contradictions are part of life and in some cases represent sensible checks and balances in a system… Try arguing that through with a bunch of entrenched fundementalists (not necessary of the religious type more of the black or white world view type, if you catch my meaning?).
Cheers CR
Observing MOD procurement from the benches: 1) We need a Committee to oversee this project so let’s table a meeting to decide the criteria for being on the committee. 2) Right we have the criteria so now let’s plan a meeting to decide the members of the Committee 3) Right we have the Committee to oversee the project, now let’s decide their terms of reference. 4) Right we have the terms of reference now let’s plan the agenda for the first meeting of the oversight Committee. By the way, what are we overseeing? (Normal person – That Norwegian Missile looks… Read more »
We have just been through a global pandemic, that is still ongoing. During which the government has had to throw huge amounts of cash at workers. The national copper’s were already empty before, due to the huge national debt, and now even more so. Realistically there probably isn’t the cash to spend right now on equipment, so anything that can be pushed back will be.
The replacement should have been ordered years ago however, so no excuses on that front, but as always no one will be held responsible.
National debt is now 106% of GDP and rising by the day. Now Professor Pantsdown and the Sage committee (perhaps an oxymoron the use of “Sage” in this context) have now suggested we may have a further lockdown in the Winter. I mean to save a tiny percentage of the elderly and those that are fat and unhealthy of their own volition or willfully won’t get a vaccine (plus an unsubstantially small number of young and healthy people). In war we often do calculations on the cost/benefit analysis of losing troops or lose a battle to save the way has… Read more »
I think you dropped your tin foil hat
Jeeze-oh, lets hope you don’t get elderly or develop a future health issue that puts you at risk, eh!
A tiny percentage of people dying is great, until it’s one of your family or yourself making up part of that “tiny percentage”.
I see Douglas, you want to stop transportation because people die in accidents.
False equivalence – that’s just silly my man!
Agreed Douglas. As of today we have over 1000 admissions to hospitals per day for Covid – up over 300 per day in the last 7 days. The point of any future measures (were a resistant variant to strike) is to stop the overwhelming of the health service which will result in much greater suffering and death in non-Covid cases through catastrophic failure to treat illness and accident properly. See India where they ran out of Oxygen supplies entirely. No surgical operations of any kind possible as a result. Try Hanging on mate until we can buy some and fly… Read more »
How many people have you personally seen die of really nasty infectious disease or some other nasty. Have you ever looked into the eyes of a person dying in pain and fear, knowing all you can do is hold their hand then comfort their broken relatives. seeing one is hard, twos Nasty, 1000+ gives you a profound understanding of the meaning a lost life and a really nasty anger issue with people who take Anyone’s life lightly. it’s not a small number of people dying of this disease, even now, today still in the summer ( the most difficult time… Read more »
Well said
Really? We are now at herd immunity. What more do people want? I really do worry about people like you and what our grandparents would think about this post war set of generations. Indeed what would the post WW1 generation think that suffered 50 million dead in total from the flu pandemic? They would wonder why you are all hiding under your bed sheets. No wonder China will rule the world with people like you are the helm…
you really don’t get I do you, the 1918 flu killed around 228,000 in the U.K. in 1918/19 but like all pandemic flu it burned for a couple of years and was gone. Covid 19 has killed around 150,000 up to now. But covid 19 is not the flu, Covid is never ever going away, immunity to corona viruses does not last and this virus is very good at knocking out nasty mutations. Covid 19 is never ever going away and we will never have long lasting immunity, that means hundreds of thousands of hospital bed days every year, ongoing… Read more »
To be honest in the 1918 flu (another Chinese pandemic from just after WW1) 50 milllion people died and do you think our great grandparents stopped their lives – hell know they didn’t as they had greater guts and determination than the baby boom generation that quite frankly is starting to look selfish in the extreme. I think you, and others like you, are the reason this country is declining and in debt – for the last thirty years. If it happens to me I will accept my fate knowning I wasn’t a burden to society as I stated clearly… Read more »
Sorry that’s balls, the 1918 pandemic was an avian flu that most likely the made leap to humans in Europe and was then spread by returning soldiers to the US and across Europe. It was not a Chinese flu. Read some actual research papers before speaking rubbish on a subject you clearly have no knowledge of.
Please read the following for the origin of the 1918 pandemic:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/140123-spanish-flu-1918-china-origins-pandemic-science-health
Andrew that is not a scientific article from a peer reviewed publication, is a speculation piece by a historian. Interesting in is discussion and possibilities but it does not changes the decades of scientific research on this subject that has provided evidence ( of the scientific type) that the 1918 pandemic started in Europe.
Time we also stopped hero worshipping the NHS. It’s a poor service delivered in an exceptionally poor way. Try a different system as I have in Japan and then you understand we pay over the odds for the NHS which has essentially will cause more deaths through delayed operations because GPs are still not back at work even though they were the first to be double jabbed…I would imagine you are one of those that clapped the NHS…
Bloody hell Andrew, that’s a bit strong! Many NHS staff put their collective arses on the line when the pandemic started and still work hard keeping Covid under control. The vaccination programme itself is an amazing national undertaking, something we should all be very proud of. Most would agree that the NHS requires substantial root and branch reform, to ensure money is spent in the most effective way. The problem is, any talk of serious reform is always shouted down by the Unions and the Labour party, who howl privatisation from the roof tops. The reality is, if I need… Read more »
My cousin works for the NHS and got her jab well before others in more need. She is fat, smokes and drinks so had to self isolate as she was at major risk. I was totally ashamed of her for taking the jab when she didn’t go to work. I now use a private GP as my NHS GP doesn’t do face-to-face meetings. I find a private GP more motivated, listens to you properly and if you need a scan it goes done the next day. My brother works in the NHS as well and even he agreed many NHS… Read more »
I wouldn’t argue re GP’s, I’ve a particularly good local surgery, but many do seem to be very happy to continue keep the public at arms length!
GP practices are literally dying, we forgot to train the appropriate number of GPS over the last 20 years and now we have run out… so practices are literally dying and primary care as you and I have known it is almost gone. I spend most of my time trying to keep collapsing practices running for as long as possible. most GPS are now old and want to retire, they are independent business and not owned by the NHS so when they pack their bags and say “piss off this is not worth it” I’m not running a business with… Read more »
I can only go by my local practice Jonathan, like I said, very good and all young GP’s!
It’s gradually taken over most of the old GP surgeries where I live and it’s a breath of fresh air, marked improvement over the old surgery!
I’m surprised at the £50k a year, I thought Cameron gave them a massive pay rise, closer to £100k, as part of a change of contract??
Hi john, what most people don’t realise is that GPS are not employed by the NHS. Almost all GP practices are Independent businesses that use a partnership model ( unlimited liability) The partners are mainly General practitioners with some having nurse or practice managers, who own the business. These businesses then employ all the other staff they need ( salaried GPS, nurses, managers, reception staff, clearness etc).They also have to pay for locum cover for sickness, holidays etc, pay the utilise and rent etc. The business has a core contract with the local NHS commissioner to provide GP services (… Read more »
As ever, thanks for the illuminating reply Jonathan. Certainly, like social care, it’s a can that just keeps getting kicked down the road. A new cross party agreement needs to be reached, we need to decide what we expect the NHS to do and where to draw the line, to let the private sector work. It simply can’t do everything, you could double the budget and it still wouldn’t be enough…. I do find it depressing that the Government comes up with a workable plan for social care and the NHS via NI increases and Labour immediately criticise it! First… Read more »
Yes John I agree, it’s actually the very first time any government has actually turned around and said “look guys it’s not nice and we don’t want to do it but….” so I’m a bit upset that labour could not have been a bit more constructive ( modern politics is alway more about points scoring not outcomes) . My only concern really is on the balance of settlement between adult social care and the NHS. Even though I work for the nhs and would love more budget for Primary Care I recognise the greatest increase in demand For Primary care… Read more »
Spot on Jonathan…..
I will tell that to all my colleagues most of whom work way more hours than they are payed for. If I add up the Unpaid hours I’ve give to care for patients or finish a staff appraisal, listen to one of my team in tears. The nhs is not the best service in the world by a long way, but every internationals study recognises it’s just about the most efficient and and equitable, I happen to know because This overpaid nhs worker not only works about 15 hours a week extra with no pay but also studies in his… Read more »
I’m actually getting paid $200,000 when I move to the US next month and I get free healthcare on top from an excellent private provider. If you were really worth $130k you would do what I’m doing. Instead you moan about your poor pay and long hours. Personally I think what you say is non-sense. I have many family members in the NHS and I and many others know it’s the worst service on all measures and needs to be more like Japan – a mixture of private and public funds. GPs are also earning £250k in some cases like… Read more »
Well off you pop then, I think your talking so much ball about a subject you know nothing about, have fun with the US health system, as anyone who actually knows anything about health will tell you it’s an international joke.
What happens when you lose your job in the states, no more healthcare, income. Don’t come crawling back here wanting nhs help as you have clearly said it’s pointless. I really hope you never fall on hard times and have to eat you own words
I’m not moaning about my poor pay. I’m highlighting that you calling NHS stafff lazy and overpaid, is not only an insult but is plain wrong and actually contemptible ( come back to me on lazy and over paid when after working 8 hours sold in a busy ED spend another 6 hours battling to save a child’s life, when you were due home four hour previously). I do my job because I want to make a difference and the pay is fine. I work the hours because I want to keep Primary care working for the population and when… Read more »
Look Jonathan there are some wonderful health care professionals on the ground. However, it’s very patchy and we both know it is true (both from my family who work in the NHS and from experience of being a patient). I think the implementation of the market into the NHS has been a complete disaster. I would be much more happy with a Japanese system where people pay through taxes as well as private as well. They seemed to have got things perfectly implemented and it is a very smooth system (having experienced it myself). The Doctors are motivated, dedicated and… Read more »
Hi Andrew, I think we can agree on the internal market, it was a stupid idea to set up a sudo competition process in a system that only really works well if it collaborates. I don’t disagree with some individuals not being great at their jobs, the nhs like everything promotes you to the level of your incompetence and is stuck with a very stupid promotion process that all depend on a 30min interview not your track record of success. to be honest execute pay in the NHS is not as high as you think, a chief executive of a… Read more »
I think we are on the same page in many ways – perhaps it doesn’t come across like that as I don’t sugar coat my opinions (maybe a defect in my personality). The system needs root an branch reform and there are some good models out there. Getting everyone to pay some means tested up-front fees as well as through general taxation is a good model that the Japanese use extensively. This promotes a healthy respect for when people need and don’t need the service (as you think carefully when you have to pay a small fee). Miss GP appointments… Read more »
Don’t disagree on most of that. now this is a rant, not at you but it’s my brain dump of the key areas needing change: British culture around healthcare: One of the big problems the NHS faces especially in ED and primary care, out of hours and ambulance services is abuse of the service, people in the U.K. have a real problem with self care. We as a society need to change our attitude to health, the NHS Needs to be seen not a magic pill but a rare wounderful thing you only call on if you must, health Care… Read more »
Jonathan that is the best comment I have ever read about the NHS and actually I agree with 110%. Everything you said makes immitable sense to me and on local control and reduce central control I would heartily agree with you. If would vote you as secretary of Health tomorrow.
My GP has been at work throughout the pandemic. She’s phones me every 4 weeks so I’ve had a chat about how this is has effected there workload etc.
U appear to be very heartless. Our society is built around helping the needy and that is meant to keep everyone safe. Maybe America or one of the other countries with a very poor safety net system is where u would prefer to be.
I get the frustration and most of what you write is understandable to start with. Your personal insults and assumptions of people is to far tho
“Our society is built around helping the needy and that is meant to keep everyone safe. “ So you want a concentration camp. If you don’t create, if you dont produce you are nothing. It is ironic that with Brexit, UK is getting with less freedom and even more socialist. Looking at British media and Academia do not surprise me, 1984 is for them a manual not a warning. And historically not really surprising, it is all explained with 2WW Fabian “consensus” that saw UK by 1970’s with only 2/3 of income of the country they help destroy 30 years before:… Read more »
I think by and large surprisingly we are on the same page. I hate the management costs and inefficiencies of the NHS and its patchy delivery. A vast majority of healthcare foot soldiers (Doctors and workers) do a great job but to say all do wouldn’t be something I subscribe to as well.
Hi Steve, Yup, I guess the pandemic makes for a good excuse, but this has all the hallmark of another faff… It is a interim missile which is due to be replaced in less than 10 or 12 years, so there is no need to really worry about future proofing the capability. It is also an urgent issue for the RN to solve so minds should be focused. The fact that it is a short term interim capability should make the requirement document relatively easy to produce, but reading between the lines there is no agreed requirements document i.e. there… Read more »
Hi Steve, if this was a post COVID issue I would agree. Unfortunately the symptoms have been around for decades. Programs such as T31 (rigid competitive bidding) Brimstone and CAAM (selective targeted negotiations) have delivered positive process outcomes in recent years but some of the projects (mostly Army) have for decades suffered, I suspect, from scope creep, funding u turns, political interference and indecision. As Danielle says above. Part time procurement bods in uniform won’t help ……unless they have very specific technical and operational suitability roles and responsibilities in the process. In a very high risk heavy marine engineering focused… Read more »
The only surprise in this announcement is that anyone is surprised! My money is on the interim weapon going into service around the time the FC/ASW should have been available. Since that is bound to be several years late and over budget every one involved will be able to pay themselves on their backs and declare success. Plus ca change.
If they can’t/won’t make a decision on the interim then bring forward the FC/ASW and get a b****y move on! How difficult is it to make a decision, aren’t they supposed experts at this? Where are the expert advisors? Surely do you need more than 1-3 months? If they want to go cheapest/easiest/ short-medium term for integration go for the latest Harpoon+++. Or, if medium-longer term and they like the NSM then go for it. And fit out the more of or the whole fleet not just 5 sets! Maybe logistically we need to consider what do our neighbours have?… Read more »
It’s actually a pity that Dominic Cummings turned out to be (again unsurprisingly) a complete ****, because some of his ideas were actually decent. e.g. Civil servant managers who oversee projects that are late and/or substantially over budget should find it harder to get promotions and new postings. In other words if one messes up then the consequences should follow them to their next job. Of course one learns by experience so maybe somekind of points/garding system where repeated failures count heavily against your career prospects but a recovery is possible with a succesful project. All projects should have pre-agreed… Read more »
It’s a sad state of affairs. I’m sure a lot goes right but big and necessary items like this it is basically keeping the armed forces “naked”. I whince everytime I see photo of an underarmed T45/T23 and a seeming lack of spread of defensive armament of the two carriers. Let’s hope they come to their senses and get this issue sorted pronto. With the T26s coming into service mid decade I hope they’ve stated ordering for their ASMs now and in sufficient quantity. 24 x 8 = a lot of silos to fill. It will interesting to see if… Read more »
Hi Nick, Just to clarify, I’m not surprised in the slightest. Just frustrated that the services and MoD cannot buy anything without a major song and dance..! All too often it descends into a complete farce, with potential consequences for the very services who are trying to buy the kit! Industry, politicians and the treasury all have contributed to the shambles, but the armed forces really do need to learn how to write and stick to a good set of requirements. Officers in procurement posts should be rewarded for keeping a project on time and to cost – not for… Read more »
Here’s an idea, why not send the MOD procurement teams to learn from the Israelis? They seem to get the kit they need when they want it, and they have got a lot more experience in using it in action than we do. That would get the Mandarins old back leg going.
The Israelis have a different mindset on this. In the UK we will start out by having to develop our own very cutting edge/best sensor and platform for ourselves. Then we, probably, set about creating a unique software platform to support that. The Israelis will generally have a look at what is out there and choose some mid/high level sensors that are off-the-shelf and maybe tweak them a bit. They will then create some, quite clever, software that fuses a range of mid level sensors to give something quite formidable. Hence you take a lot of risk out of the… Read more »
Israelis now appear to contribute significant hardware to Europe defence.
Of note is the cooperation they have with Germans.
The F125 destroyer radar upgrade for BMD seem will have Elta-Hensoldt radars.
Israel benefits from free access to the wallet of the US taxpayer, so as good as the kit is, a like for like comparison on procurement foul ups is difficult and I doubt the joint elements of systems like Arrow etc are transparent. We could shop off the shelf there. Stunner missiles integrated into Sky Sabre. ( which has israeli C+c elements anyway) LORA 300km ballistic missiles mounted on trucks could be planted within R.A batteries, Gabriel 5 has been offered by them for RN use. If we had the money, Israelis products could significantly boost our forces.( via the… Read more »
I’m totally with you on this CR. Maybe we can start a petition… Lol 😁
For fear of raising your blood pressure even further but you are wrong here ChariotRider. The last thing the RN should be doing is buying something that “at least matches” the capabilities of Harpoon! If that was the exercise the MOD would have already made an FMS purchase of Harpoon Block II+ and be done with it. What you call “gucci extras” are essential for the RNs needs especially with modern ROE considerations. When it was the Cold War and the main RN tasking was ASW in the North Atlantic with the risk that they might get dragged into a… Read more »
I agree with your points about the specification Fedaykin. However, the point I was trying to make was that it should be easy enough to agree a basic or minimum acceptable capability for an interim missile when the other option was no missile. The full spec dual role SSM is under development and (hopefully) due sometime early in the next decade. Get the damn interim missile in service ASAP and accept that it isn’t going to do everything you want – it is temporary. Then focus on keeping the full capability SSM on schedule and to cost – no damn… Read more »
Considering the RN has not fired an anti ship missile in anger since the first Gulf War and even then that was the helicopter launched Sea Skua I am comfortable with some mild slippage to get this right especially as I think FC/ASW has the strong risk of slipping in its own right. Personally I think Gabriel V fits in the sweet spot for this, designed to fit into the footprint of Harpoon, apparently aggressively priced in comparison to other systems on offer and designed to operate within littoral conditions. That Finland have gone for it especially as they were… Read more »
I wouldn’t be surprised if the delay was so that we could properly evaluate the target discrimination technology used in Gabriel V.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55214359
the M.O.D is buying from the catalogue again without looking past th builders claims. we blame the M.O.D and the treasury, but the admiralty,air force,army never gets called to account
Is a anyone really surprised about this announcement? I actually 100% convinced that the UK people in general are really bad at management. It’s really not rocket science to do these things pardon the pun. Our great grandfathers must be laughing (or crying) in their graves.
The thing is if they make the requirement a UOR buy it would wizz through the paperwork and signing off process and we could get it in probably 6 month start to finish.
With the timeline the interm solution is working to its almost a UOR anyway!
My guess is that the chosen missile doesn’t fit in the tiny budget that the MoD & Treasury has allocated.
You might be right Ron! Make a budget to fit the requirement. GBP400m should do it! Signed by us, done!… Lol 😁
Bargain!!!
No doubt boris has earmarked the budget for his personal/Royal yacht.
It’s neither. But don’t let facts spoil your agenda. 😂
Ah, that proves it then.
A poor effort.
Apart from personal snipes, maybe have a read of the articles here on UKDJ, while taking your red tinted glasses off which actually describe what the National Flagship is for.
If that info turns out to be false then I will be joining you in opposing its function if it is indeed a “Royal Yacht, BJ’s own plaything.
Grow up Andy, keep the sad, no mates one liners for your lefty get togethers.
Keep up Daniele we are all now living in a post facts world…….it’s sort of like being permanently down the pub and talking bollox with your mates after 4 pints.
😆 just noticed his snipe at me and my repose was removed. Pity! Was hoping for more.
Though the bollox bit sounds fun! I’d be at that stage after 1 pint these days though…😏
The sad truth is I’m the same, once I’d have a good time and be hours in before stage bollox talking kicked in, now it’s half a shandy and I’m off.
RBS 15 Mk4 … it has a long reach and decent-sized warhead.
Yes, agree, could be a goer and with Sweden and German navies and I think Poland too.
Good to build on our Anglo-Swede relations with Tempest and our 40mm/57mm purchases.
I will be honest I’m hoping that the missile they choose is not the best nor very good because that will prevent the chances of them deciding to abandon FCASW.
FCASW will be far more advanced than RBS 15 Mk4, but we need something NOW. Every modern navy and many potential adversaries have something with a longer range that is more advanced than harpoon.
We cannot afford to remain this badly outgunned.
And yet not one has been fired in over 40 years.
We have to be prepared, there will always be countries that hate us and go against our interests whatever we say or do, take Iran as an example, they have developed an anti-ship missile called Khalij Fars (Persian Gulf) it Flies at Mach 3 has 650Kg warhead and range of 300km …what do we have to match that ? nothing…. and knowing that emboldens them.
The RN have been dealing with the Iranian threats very nicely for decades now in and aroundthe Gulf. Does this missiles actually work? Because all i have seen the Iranians do is sink there own vessels in incidents. They don’t exactly have a proven record of having anything that comes close to western capabilities.
Well, the marines from HMS Cornwall got captured by the IRGC in 2008 and we did nothing militarily in response. We know their missile tech works, they used the Fatah version of this missile against the Al -Asad airbase in Iraq, In fact, the worst thing we can do is dismiss a potent and belligerent foe as inferior and incompetent, we have made that mistake before.
I think the RN knows what it’s doing don’t you? Would you be brave with a 50 cal pointing at your face?. We didn’t need to escalate that confrontation otherwise those Marines would probably have been killed, and a major international crisis would have been started. Calm heads are sometimes required. There missile tech sunk one of there own vessels back in May 2020 with 19 killed and another 15 injured. Another reason why AshM are not the first weapon of choice. A very good chance you will hit the wrong target.
33 years actually since a harpoon was fired in anger during operation ‘praying mantis’ other anti-ship missiles have been fired in anger since. In 2006 INS Hanit was hit by a C-802 fired by Hezbollah. The Russians fired P120-Malakhit missiles during the Georgian war in 2008.
So basically, nothing has changed yet, and it’s a story to trigger the usual suspects that cry over nothing 😄
Taking you’re “nothing has changed yet” as a serious point worthy of further thought, I think it depends on our time-frame as to whether anything has changed? In July Quin stated “The Planning Assumption for Service Entry for Future Cruise /Anti-Ship Weapon on the T26 Frigate and Typhoon aircraft is 2028 and 2030 respectively.” The 2028 date was a surprise given that most if not all statements/assumptions had been for early 2030’s service entry for FC/ASW. Perhaps a question given the date’s pull-in, is whether there is an expectation that it may actually be earlier and that 2028 includes some… Read more »
Hi Robert, with respect, when our potential adversaries are armed to the teeth and increasing in quality and quantity and spreading their influence, if there was ever a trigger event I think we might come up very short. We can fall back on the US and allies but why can’t we, UK, be more prepared? Even having some additional ASMs would help complement our gunnery and I don’t think would cost the earth if managed well. Are we embarrassed to be well armed? I’m not a military person so there’s a lot I don’t know and I am going a… Read more »
Totally agree , deterrence is part of the overall strategy, if an adversary knows you are weak or lagging behind technically , then they become emboldened.
Hi mate. The RN’s experience is that we use helicopters with Sea Venom and Martlet to sink small to medium vessels. And use Astute class with the superb Spearfish for larger warships. And surface AshM is largely for back up. These missiles allowed very nice and impressive, but in the real world, with complex rules of engagement, and even more complex kill chain command structures to actually find, track, and engage a modern warship at range that will be using every trick In the book, every EW capability it can deploy, and get through any close I’m defence weapon system.… Read more »
Hi Robert, fundamentally I agree with what your saying above and I probably overplay the ASM card at times but despite all the rules of engagement, EW out there, which our potential opponents might also have, there is a ever growing heavily armed naval presence just up North in our part of the world and I don’t expect them to always play by the rules. They even want to set their own rules for everyone else transiting through the SCS. If I was on any warship I would want it to be fully armed for its core AAW/ASW roles, with… Read more »
As far as I can see harpoon has effectively left service! Every time I see a ship sail its deck is devoid of harpoon launchers. Presumably this means we are getting true value for money in the greatest of mod tradition paying for something which exists on paper only.
Think HMS Kent has them on CSG21.
Montrose in the Gulf has them
Well she did yesterday when I was stood on the jetty next to her. I will check again today as I will be going onboard… Better safe than sorry
Just because a vessel has Harpoon Tubes fitted, it doesn’t actually mean it is carrying the missile…….the absence of Harpoon on RN ships these days appears to indicate that for all intents and purposes the missile has all but been withdrawn?
I reckon GB will know if the missiles are there and not just empty tubes, his post was a little to tongue in cheek sarcasm….of which I approve !
Basically Royal Navy can only sink enemy ships with torpedoes and small missiles from helicopters. Or with 4.5″…
.
Spearfish works quite well too. 😉
I did not know that RN ships now have a ram… 🙂
The RN doesn’t need to sink anything… It needs mission kills.
A Warship sinks that’s it…. Glug glug glug.
Mission kills need assistance, tugs, towing, top cover, salvage experts, spares, care for the crew etc… It ties up other resources and makes the enemy less combat capable.
Same as the army on a battlefield.
If your dead that’s it….Endex.
If you are wounded you immediately tie up your squad looking after you, evac assets are needed , field hospitals, medical evac flights…
Wow Sir Humphrey, i expect you have then advised for the Spearfish charge to be reduced to 100lb…
Nope… Make it blast frag to cause more damage to avoid a sinking so tying up more resources.
War and conflict isn’t pretty the idea is to win and make the other guy die for his country.
As I am still alive it’s worked for me over the decades with regards to previous conflicts, scurmishes and scuffles I was involved with.
Instead of die for his country don’t you mean get almost dead, bleed a lot and loiter around for months or years taking up resources for his county ?
Sarcastic comments to the SME just makes you look silly.
The same as the simplified strategy used by German snipers in WWII in France in 1944. They shot men just behind the first wave of an attack and aimed for the areas in the body so the man was badly wounded and screaming rather then dead so he had to be taken care of and all the other troops were distracted and unnerved by what they saw and heared. far more effective than one dead man
The downside is you have to get within striking range with those types of weapons, if the enemy has a 300km range Anti-ship missile, they are already beyond your reach.
And F35B with a laser guided bomb tossed from 30000 feet 5-6 miles away possibly further. Or Aster 30 has a dual anti air anti surface capability.
Damn the best before and use by dates the MOD have seen this coming and yet again they have forgotten that age old Jack term 6P Prior Preparation prevents piss poor performance
I get the feeling ajax is gunna make the government crack some heads on military procurement, 3 billion wasted so far for gold plated f35 media hub tank that’s taken so long it’s not gunna be needed with other capabilities around soon.
But most of that 3 billion went on H&S assessments ie ample legroom ,childseating adaptable ,disability friendly , At the rate Ajax is progressing the only takers for it will be People who use Humvees to do their shopping and block two parking spaces and then leave their trolley blocking parking .At least with Ajax you store the trolley so that’s 1,positive attribute
Didn’t one of the old,22s, it might of been HMS Boxer during her Sinkex get slammed by two Harpoon Anti ship missiles and still manage 1,of the 3 required actions of a warship fight, FLOAT ,move either Boxer was well built or duff Harpoon?
Sinkexs are not that realistic. The ship isn’t moving or doing self defence measures. Prior to sinkex all tanks are emptied and cleaned. All iffy contaminates are removed.No oil in transformers, pipes are flushed, No working systems onboard so no rupturing of fuel lines, no magazines being hit, no doors being buckles or blown open, little to no fires, no crew trying to still get the ship to move and fight. Valves are locked and blanked closed to keep the sea out. Vent ducts are closed and locked. Doors and hatches are welded shut. All the empty tanks add to… Read more »
I suppose no electrical energy working either.
Thanks Gunbuster for the in depth account for prepping a ship for sinkex ,all I was trying to state was that the old girl was still floating she wasn’t in Zulu Alpha when hit
It’s not like there are that many realistic choices and this is after all an interim system that will sit on ships for 9 years and in all probability never be fired in anger The RN has never used a heavyweight anti ship missile in anger and therefore it’s a very low level of likelihood that it will need to again. This really is more about credibly and insurance than anything else, so just get an inexpensive but credible option though a quick compliant tender process and stop pissing about. Something like RGM-184A would be fine, it’s light but had… Read more »
Hi Jonathan, a potential conflict may now be a low possibility but why do the likes of China and Russia have such a high level of ASMs on their vessels and subs as well and China’s heavy fleet is huge and growing. What is all that for and for aiming at whom? Some of their ships have up to 16 ASMs and are even supersonic. We need more than an 4.5” main gun, fresh air and FFBNW on our main warships. We don’t have to go overboard but be sensible and agree that it’s all movable to the T31s later… Read more »
“why do the likes of China and Russia have such a high level of ASMs on their vessels and subs” Because they have the USN and NATO as their potential enemy, with a clear supremacy in naval capabilities. It is the same with the Russian AD system. They needed it. They had SAC coming at them from all angles. Our ships do not go out intending fleet on fleet engagements. Our SSN and in time aviation will do that. To me it is the basis of sea denial to an adversary. You can have as many frigates armed to… Read more »
Hi Daniele, yes, I agree that we are both confronting each other, and it’s easy to be more biased to our side and critical of the other. I am getting more alarmed as many are through the constant media attention to the growing naval strength of China, particularly in our Asia Pacific region, that even on our side of things here in Australia they’re looking at producing missiles domestically, particularly shipping attacking missiles, air/sea launched and this suggests to me a current and projected imbalance being addressed. I hope that the RAN here would get a medium carrier too as… Read more »
Just a question, out of the final RN fleet of 7 Astutes how many would able to be at sea at one time? Up to 4? If the RN had one or two more maybe then up to 5? That would be very helpful to having two CSG groups at the one time if ever needed plus and or other long range patrols. Or to have an additional diesel sub fleet and UUVs for regional closer to home patrols and using the nuclear fleet for more global deployment.
Hi Quentin, I do think we need something that is an adequate Anti surface warfare threat organic to our escorts, but that’s not so much in regards to China and Russia because if we are in a peer conflict all the escorts are going to be in there primary escort function of protecting a taskforce from a specific threat, with the anti surface warfare being undertaken by the taskforces submarines and air components. what we need the anti ship missile for on the escort fleet is that time when the escort is on a single deployment in places like the… Read more »
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Have collapsed and died on your keyboard ? Just checking.
I hear, that a mate of Boris’s dog sitter has offered a fantastic deal where he offers a box of 1Standard fireworks big bang rockets for £12 million a box, Mind you the bottle is an extra £10 billion, but they have offered to throw in a box of Swan vesta for free.
And to cap it all sparklers are an added bonus just looking now for trustworthy Adults who won’t drop the Swan vestas in the box
What a surprise…….. NOT
Is there a single project the MOD runs that comes in on time and on budget. They truelly must be the worst procurement team in the world.
RN still having to use hopelessly obsolete tech. The Harpoon system OK in the ’70’s doesn’t cut it today. Maybe time to get the Brahmos [ spelling ] ? hypersonic system from India, off the shelf & ready to go ?
Why not just arm the F-35 with an anti-ship missile? They can respond to threats far quicker than a surface vessel, or even carry out anti-ship missions from the land.
Historically, it was the carrier’s air wing (or submarines) that took on enemy ships. It seems like the RN is limiting its flexibility by giving the anti-ship mission to surface ships instead of planes.
theres more known about this issue than there is about projects like dragon fire and weaponising the taranis drones. are the abandoned projects?
There has been a lot of discussion around Sea Serpent in the past few weeks. Even IAI pitched it at the DSEI exhibition at the Excel centre in London, as being the future I-SSGW for the Royal Navy. Either the decision has already been made but is being kept ‘hush hush’ or something else is going on. Either way you don’t promote it as the future choice for the RN if there was never any smoke without fire.