A turf-cutting ceremony has taken place to mark the first significant step in preparing RAF Lossiemouth for the arrival of the UK Wedgetail AEW Mk1 (E-7) fleet.
Wedgetail is an airborne early warning and control system. They are designed to track multiple targets at sea or in the air over a considerable area for long periods of time. The aircraft is replacing the E-3D Sentry ‘AWACS’ many people are familiar with.
The UK’s surveillance fleet will be located in a new facility at the Scottish base alongside the recently completed Atlantic Building, housing the UK’s fleet of nine Poseidon MRA Mk1 aircraft which already operate from RAF Lossiemouth.
Boeing is working with McLaughlin & Harvey in Glasgow to prepare the ground, creating and supporting hundreds of jobs in the area, boosting the local supply chain and economy.
More contracts to follow as the base develops
The ceremony to prepare the ground was undertaken by Air Commodore Hicks who was joined by Wing Commander Knight and Chris Laslett of Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S), Mr Ian Vett from Boeing Defence UK, and Mr Paul Griffen from infrastructure contractor McLaughlin & Harvey.
Air Commodore Hicks, Senior Responsible Owner for the Wedgetail Programme, was quoted as saying:
“I am thrilled to witness this major milestone for the RAF’s Wedgetail Programme with our key industry and DE&S partners. The start of the technical infrastructure build represents a significant step in preparing RAF Lossiemouth for the arrival of the aircraft in 2024, which is vital to support our Wedgetail aircraft and personnel.”
Group Captain Young, E-7 Wedgetail Delivery Team Leader, was also quoted as saying:
“A follow-on contract to be signed later this year will enable construction of the facility to commence in Spring 2023 and further bolster the reputation of Lossiemouth which enjoys a strategic location and state-of-the-art facilities. The new facility will adjoin the Atlantic Building, a technical complex which supports Poseidon operations.”
High-performance aircraft en route to Scotland
The Wedgetail is capable of simultaneously tracking multiple airborne and maritime targets, using the information it gathers to improve situational awareness and direct assets such as fighter jets and warships. The Wedgetail has previously been used by the Royal Australian Air Force on operations against Daesh in Iraq and Syria.
The enabling works at Lossiemouth will include diversion of utilities, ground levelling and preparatory piling.
Ian Vett, Director of the UK E-7 Programme at Boeing, said:
“Today’s turf cutting ceremony represents Boeing’s growing presence and investment at RAF Lossiemouth and across the Moray region. We look forward to starting the work that will see the expansion of the facility to ensure the required capacity and support is in place for the E-7 Wedgetail fleet’s introduction to service.”
Concern over the cut to numbers
The UK had originally intended to operate five E-7 airborne early warning, it will now only operate three. Dr Sophy Antrobus, Research Fellow at Freeman Air and Space Institute, told the House of Commons Defence Committee that the cut from five planned aircraft to three was a bad idea:
“I do not think three is the right number and I cannot see it ever being the right answer. You will have heard these arguments rehearsed before, so I will be relatively brief. If you have one aircraft in deep maintenance, you have further two aircraft, you are trying to cover 24-hour orbit and one of those aircraft has a minor fault, you are stuffed, effectively. I know that the RAF would very much want to go back to five, four at the very minimum. It is just the wrong number, and there is no point in me going any further than saying that.
I would make the point that if there is a decision or revision of that decision, as you mentioned the IOC date, the FOC date is intended to be 2026, so that would be when the third Wedgetail, as currently planned, comes on stream. It is being developed and finished, as you will know, in Birmingham. If the decision is not made by then or in time, that production facility will cease to exist, so there is a relevance of dates and timings.”
The target for Initial Operating Capability is 2024 for the Wedgetail AEW Mk1 Programme, marking a return to RAF Lossiemouth for 8 Squadron after an absence of 30 years.
Did you notice that? The Initial Operating Capability for Wedgetail has slipped from 2023 in the Defence Command Paper to 2024 as per the recent RAF news release I’ve quoted above.
We could have a sweepsteak. My money is on nine.
How about 8, for 8?😆
We want 8 and we wont wait.
😆😅😆🤣 funny how history repeats itself
Bit like the below post from Nige
Surely there is a hanger already there they can use considering we are only getting three. Why spend the equivalent of another plane on a shed? The next news will be a time and cost overrun on the new infrastructure.
Hmmm… does anyone else feel a slight twinge of unease at the continued development of ‘super bases’ (believe a US coined term). Especially at bases w/currently inadequate AD? Simplifies a potential adversary’s targeting task significantly. Fully realize there are countervailing arguments re cost savings. Just want everyone to remember all the battlewagons berthed in neatly arranged rows at Pearl, and aircraft lined up wingtip to wingtip on 6 Dec 41. No predictions mind you, but it may be mildly thought provoking…🤔
The problem with dispersal of UK bases whether Land, Sea or Air is that we just don’t have enough assets to disperse. Add to that the fixed costs of bases that are only marginally affected by how many assets are using the base. Eg an airbase needs at least one main runway and secondary hard standing. plus accomodation etc etc. I think the really good point you make is on defence of those bases. I hope for two reasons the RAF Regt returns to having an Air defence role with CAAM would be a good use of part of the new money we all hope the armed forces will get. It will also sihnificantly raise the morale and attractiveness as a career of the RAF Regt which currently is an organisation seeking a reason for existness.
Yes, but from the glass-half-full POV, if the defense budget is indeed doubled, is there not reason to hope RAF and FAA budgets receive an approximately commensurate increase? Possibility of additional infrastructure as well as ground based air defense?
Suggested on a previous thread that an RAF/MoD principal lobby USAF re installation of joint, ground based air defense systems. Evidently touched a raw nerve; apparent blowback re perception UK was poor relative begging for alms. Not my intent.
Yes any increase (fingers crossed) 3% would be shared equally between the 3 services. There’d be blood on the walls in the MoD if it wasn’t. I think if we do end up at 3% it would not be impossible for FAA and RAF to operate separate dedicated fleets. Like everything with a fixed budget it’s a question of priorities.No offence taken on RAF/USAF at least in UK would make sense to use a common SAM system..
To me the ideal situation is for the RAF Regt to be equipped with a Patriot/SAMPT class SAM for use at Lossiemouth and Conningsby ( being fixed sites) and for the British Army/RM exclusively to continue with Sky Sabre being more mobile/expeditionary.
Would only disagree with Patriot. I don’t think the expense in terms of unique training and new maintenance and spares support system would justify it. Other than that i’d have no problem with your suggestion.
Cost savings in superbases disappear when those bases are wiped put by enemy strike. Hopefully some assets will be dispersed in heightened tensions. here in East Anglia it seemed very short sighted to sell off several airbases. The CAMM SAMs are a great improvement for airfield defence(If we have them available for such) but we desperately need ABM defences too.
A very fair point – eggs and basket? Just as well the carriers weren’t at Pearl Harbour that day.
Indeed, if the carriers had been docked at Pearl and the Japanese had recognized the tanker farms, USN would have been totally forked. Hopefully, others will understand and benefit from our painfully learned lesson, which sadly cost 2403 lives.
The Voyager fleet came with a new super hanger at Brize.
The E3 fleet used its own super hanger at Waddington.
The dedicated infrastructure comes with the aircraft.
The issue is GBAD as USAF correctly states.
Hi DM, I wonder if this will spell the end for RAF Waddington? I would not be surprised if the MOD look to re deploy the remaining units elsewhere. I seem to recall 51sqn ISTAR Nimrod R1’s were originally based at Lossiemouth. Consolidation seems to be the way forward these days.
On a slightly different note, I see the Bell 212s are being retired from ACC ops in Brunei. Unsure what has replaced them(Gazelle possibly?)
Hi mate, long time no speak.
No chance regards Waddington, it is the ISTAR hub with a lot of ground support units there that I won’t bother listing!
16 Protector are also going there and the area east of the runway is being redeveloped with specialist facilities.
51 and 14 Squadrons ( RC135 and Shadow ) remain, the Red Arrows will be joining them. I don’t recall 51 Nimrods ever being at Lossimouth, that was 8 Sqn Shakletons.
51 was based at Wyton before.
Another issue is that the varied airborne intelligence assets there are close to their ground support elements, which are not all at Waddington.
Brunei 212s have been replaced by RAF Pumas and the AAC Flight is now an RAF one.
Hi DM . I’ve been away sunning myself on the Great Barrier Reef and Queensland .Great news on Waddington. I could well be wrong re 51 sqn at Lossie, as this was way back in the 1980s(could have been Kinloss?). Pleased to hear the RAF have taken up the Burnie gig!
If you find yourself bored with some time to kill, this link will take to an interview I did this week on Legacy Conversations. Legacy is a you tube channel of ex SADF service personnel from the Namibia Border conflict, sharing their stores (excuse the guttural accents!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CjhajX6uYA
Crikey, I would not miss it!! Will check it now mate. 😀
You had similar acronyms to us …..IAM, JARIC,
The other guy, I could barely understand a word he said!
I’ve watched first 30 mins of Part 2 so far. 👍
thanks for taking a butchers Mate! The operational stuff on the border gets more interesting.
I wonder what the logic is in basing them at Lossiemouth rather than Waddington where the AEW infrastructure and skills must surely be ?.
Well once they RAF have sorted their race for being the most WOKE force on the Planet then they may look to at least doubling up the number (The RAAF manage to get their numbers right but the RAF can’t). Perhaps the RN should take over the Maritime and Air Defence of the UK and related area’s?
What ever for? What criticism do you have of the RAF A4 ASCS force and associated QRA system?
AWACS was used as an expeditionary asset not with the RAF home defence force.
How would the RN even start to do that? 😃
With RAF Lossimouth having four sqns of Typhoons, all our P8s, and our E7s would it not be a good idea to have SAMP-T and Sky Sabre. A hit on that base would destroy most of the RAFs high level assets.
Possibly we could do the same for HMNB Clyde.
I am not sure but someone might be able to clear up but I think the Aster 30 and the CAMM missile used by the RN is the same as the land based versions. If that is the case then all we need is the radar/command and control and launcher vehicles, the missiles could come from ‘the warehouse’. A combined radar/CinC system for both missile types and a launch truck that can take 8 Aster 30s of say four Aster 30s and 16 CAMMs quad packed into the launch tube as a Aster then four trucks could give a mix of say 16 Aster 30s NT plus 64 CAMMs. If the CAMMs cannot be quad packed into a Land based Aster tube then Lossie and clyde would need three trucks for Aster and three trucks of CAMMs. Lossiemouth and HMNB Clyde have no defence from aircraft or missiles flying over mainland Europe or cannot be defended by other units in the area. They are very much on there own.
We could have possibly two more locations with such air defence units, but these would be made up of 4 trucks with 8 Aster 30s, 1 truck of CAMM and one truck with Phalanx. these two units would be based in Boston and Sidmouth.
Boston could protect the RAF bases in Linconshire and Norfolk, whilst Sidmouth could protect, Yeovilton, Plymouth and Portsmouth.
The missile regts protecting the RAF bases would be under the control of the RAF Regt, the systems protecting the RN bases would be controled by the RM Art. Overall command and control RAF UK. Lossimouth and the Clyde are very much on their own and would not have the time to get all aircraft airborne from the time of knowing about a missile launch.
Just think a Yasen SSGN could launch 32 Kaliber missiles at Lossimouth 500 miles of shore in a suprise attack, P8s,E7s and four sqns of Typhons out of operation. A second Yasen could knock out HMNB Clyde.
Yes I know cost, I could have gone for a much more costly method such as each airfield, HMNB and major city with its dedicated air defence system, but I tried to do area defence and cost return so with four systems I have covered the NE of Scotland, the W of Scotland, the Middle East of England and the SW of England. W. England, Wales and SE England is not covered. With two further systems of Aster SAMP-Ts at Southport and say London airport and the SE is covered as well as Barrow, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and N.Wales.
So for an overall expenditure of six radar systems, six comand and control systems, 22 Aster 30NT/30/15 launch trucks, 8 CAMM trucks and two Phalanx trucks. As the missiles could come from the RN reserve the land based air defence of the UK does seem to me to be cost effective. If we really took the land based air defence seriously then we could put an outpost in the Shetlands. We could possibly even build a SOSUS, air defence radar system on Rockall Isl. With a SOSUS and SAMPSON system in this location bulit into a lighthouse type building it could act as a secondery Iceland, Faeroes, Shetland gap system saving on Astute time and a long range anti air system giving better early warning. Yes it would need some defence but when I think of HMS Diamond Rock in the very early 19thC then I think in the modern world we could do it.
Speaking about the shetlands, does anyone know why we don’t base two flights of Typhoons there, it would save a lot of money in the long term whilst able to intercept much sooner.
Does anyone know what ground based air defence systems the USAF have for their airbases in the UK?
In response to your last question, a Google search yielded the executive summary of a 2020 Rand Corp. research paper on the very topic. Bottom line assessment: nothing significant, subject of an ongoing p*****g contest between USA and USAF concerning roles and responsibilities. Recommendations: Sort out who is lead dog; raid Uncle Sugar’s wallet for cash or credit card. How original! 🙄
No update available on any revised plans, post Russian-UKR dust up. (This is exactly the type of joined up thinking that loses wars! 😱)
I agree, apart from perhaps Al Assad AB and any others under potential direct attack it seems that virtually no USAF bases worldwide have much in the way of AD apart from MANPADs. The one that is now getting attention is Andersen Air Force Base Guam.
I suspect that this is down to the USAF having control of their airspace since WW2 and not seeing much need for AD. As opposed to the Russians who faced that very real airpower threat and had a desperate need for AD. Desperation breeds innovation.
The USN was in a totally different position as it was facing AShM so developed some really good AD missile systems.
Your assessment may well be correct.
Put your Putin handbag down troll boy! Desperation breeds innovation? So what has Russia innovated? Your mate Putins kit is shite, based on old 80s junk, crewed by untrained peasants, supported by a none existent logistic chain, of which most has been stolen and sold! I would say the only real innovation by the Russian army is the skilled ability to get a 9 ton tank turret, plus x 2 turret crew, to defy gravity and get more hours flight time than your rapists airforce pilots! Well done Russia!
I see you have taken the advice of silence! Good to see, as very little you can cheer about your Russkie mates and top Nazi Putin at this time. Standby to continue losing in all spheres of operations, and then do make your usual useless efforts at justification! Keep the noise down turret fodder, cheers. 🇺🇦
“Does anyone know what ground based air defence systems the USAF have for their airbases in the UK?”
None officially. Previously the USAFE bases were covered by 4 Squadrons of the RAF Regiment using Rapier.
“Speaking about the shetlands, does anyone know why we don’t base two flights of Typhoons there, it would save a lot of money in the long term whilst able to intercept much sooner.”
What airfield would you use on the Shetlands? Does it have HAS? Fuel? Ammunition Storage, GPSS, military grade runway, and all the associated infrastructure to operate fast jets? No. The cost would probably outweigh the fuel use flying from Lossimouth.
Aircraft approaching from the north are usually already intercepted by Norway before handing over to the UKADR. In war the Shetlands location would be even more vulnerable than installations on the mainland.
There is actually an AD installation, Saxa Vord, a RP with 1 TPS 77 Radar plus ASCS comms infrastructure.
On GBAD, yes, I support the purchase and deployment of SAM systems for certain key locations.
Have you ever tried operating out of Sumburgh?
Hi. I’d never heard of that just looked it up. Have I tried operating out if it?? No, I cannot fly!
You have thus discovered its on the southern end of the Shetlands & not a great airfield to operate Typhoons from, except in extremis’. Best stick to Lossie’ with a Tanker to help. If really pushed’, Wick offers an excellent Chippie’.
I agree, if you read my reply to Ron I wasn’t the one that suggested basing fighters in Shetland any way! 😳
I wouldn’t be suspired if it stays at 3 and other more pressing programmes need the investment such as Tempest, drones, Carrier mid-life re-fit, Trident and more men for the Army and significantly updated Air defence and precision munitions.