The Sun has reported that the UK will retire two of it’s thirteen Type 23 Frigates as part of the upcoming Integrated Review.
An excerpt from this article states.
“The Navy will lose two specialist sub-hunting frigates, HMS Montrose and HMS Monmouth, as well as its 13 strong fleet of minehunters which are due to be replaced by drones.”
You can read more by visiting the original source here.
You can also read more about Type 23 by visting the link below.
The final details of this will be revealed later today in the Integrated Review.
The ‘Integrated Review’, to give it its full title the ‘Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy’ is effectively a defence review.
According to a Ministry of Defence announcement:
“General Sir Nick Carter has been central to setting the vision for our future armed forces. The Prime Minister has asked General Carter to remain in post to ensure continuity and stability while the conclusions of the Integrated Review are implemented following the £24.1-billion settlement for defence announced last year.
The Integrated Review will be published on 16 of March and the Defence Command Paper will be published on 22 of March. The selection of General Carter’s successor as Chief of the Defence Staff will begin in the autumn.”
The review was previously described by Boris Johnson as the largest review of its kind since the Cold War and will be published later this month.
No surprise.
Montrose will go on her return to the UK from the Gulf. Saves on needing to do a big repair package and docking period which will be due on her return. At least the crew may get a good paying off run around the UK if COVID has eased by then.
Monmouth we all know will quietly disappear from its current position welded to the jetty!
Most likely to train using counter hacking software!
Cheers for the link, one of the reasons I like this site, saves me having to trawl through various papers for snippets of defence news.
A couple of thoughts. I wonder how long before China gains the technology to successfully intercept an ICBM or render individual missiles obsolete. I understand progress has already been made by the west in intercepting shorter range ones, the time has to come, I simply wonder when and what it’s implications will be for our nuclear arsenal. I do understand each missile contains several different delivery modules, so intercepting just one missile would simply be the start.
Secondly, I wonder if the lower classification of China when compared with Russia, was partly done so that cuts like those mentioned in this article could sail through with less opposition. If the risk from China was clearly stated, I would think there would be more push back against any cuts and more calls for rapid expansion of all aspects of our military. We’ve had 20 years sleeping to the threat from China, now should be the time for fast paced action to make up for lost time and to close the gap a bit, I fear a repeat of the 2010 defence cuts with promises of jam tomorrow.
I understand we cannot take China on individually, in my opinion the goal should be having a large enough armed forces to make any solo interaction between us and China too costly for China to get involved in. I do not believe our current numbers are sufficient to do this at the moment and if we do not make rapid progress to close the gap now it will simply get bigger. I understand our strategic defence posture is essentially relying on allies plus the nuclear deterrent, but I do not trust any other country to have the UK’s best interests at heart nor to always be relied upon in times of strife and if a scenario were to arrise which nullified our nuclear deterrent we would be left a bit vulnerable to others whims.
To your second point regarding classification, to me it’s more political issue than military, the UK needs trade with China, to say China is enemy will hinder that, with Russia trade is not important
Ulya wrote:
Australia has found out the hard way, that trade with China entails dancing to the tune they play, if you don’t dance to that tune , then they will cut all trade links with you, which is what is happening with Australia where it was reported by the Guardian last Oct, that Australia lost out to the tune of $47 billion last year in trade with China because Australia demanded an international inquiry into the origins and handling of Covid-19 which angered Beijing, which opined that it was a political move targeting China.
Last month China enacted a new law allowing its Coast guard to fire on ships inside the 9 dash line. A line used by Beijing to claim the seas a few miles off the coast of the Philippines yet several hundred away from China This we saw in an actual bunfight between the Chinese navy and the Philippines navy in 1996 off the coast of Capones Island which is around 2 miles from the Philippines coast and kind of explains why manila purchased a load of Indian Bramos the other week.
Currently the PLA has been sending planes inside Taiwanese and Japanese airspace, it is pushing against India and was reported to be building a new missile base near the border with Vietnam. I haven’t touched its spying on others, it repression of Tibet and its Muslim population. to that end I wouldn’t touch china with a barge pole. That said from the news, it appears this current government wants to put aside the fears of a large number of its own MPs and build stronger ties with China . Damn and we all looked at Corbyn as the one to sell us out if he got into power
There is a limit to how many nations China can refuse to trade with at once before it becomes self imposed sanctions.
if they are arguing with the UK, AUS, JPN & US at the same time then China’s economic maneuvering space is quite limited. They need the western economies to buy their products.
The key is to stick together and not take a craven position.
The issue always was that the EU, as a trading bloc first, was always cow towing to China as was the UK under Cameron / Osborn: not a good look.
Dot forget India.
IIRC Australia demanded a weapons inspector style investigation, it was very poor form.
China does not need the West to buy it’s goods, they have changed their strategy to have their domestic market as primary, and the international market as support for that.
Also, chinas biggest trading block is now ASEAN.
Also, you are totally wrong about China entering other countries airspace, you mean their ADIZ, and just to be clear: Taiwan’s ADIZ is INSIDE China,
So many mistakes in your post.
I attach a map of Taiwan ADIZ, though I doubt it will do any good because the truth doesn’t seem to mater when it come to China in this forum.
https://amti.csis.org/primer-m503-civil-aviation-asia/#jp-carousel-23661
It will be a vary long time, before the vast majority of Chinese citizens earn enough money, to buy all the goods that China makes.
So, good luck with that idea then!
It’s not my idea, It’s Chinas well documented strategy.
You do realize their GDP per capita is at $10,000 right? And that they will at least double this by 2035.
There are 1.4b of them.
China’s citizens are going to need a GDP per capita of at least $40000 to buy all their own goods made in China. Like a 1st world country.
So China could be subject to economic boycotts in the meantime. Like restricted investment and trade restrictions.
China is doomed in the ASEAN block as the majority are Muslim and HATE China to the point people of Chinese heritage in these countries are openly discriminated against . Pakistan will play its two sided game telling China what it wants to here while supplying resurgent Taliban with the means to undermine China’s borders . China , has helped India now which is about to take off and they will need Steel and Gas which they will get from Australia cheap thanks to China not competing for the same raw materials .
Chinese trawlers have been fishing around the Galapagos.
There are reports that China is planning to ‘forward base’ its fishing fleet on Australia’s door step in Papua New Guinea.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/chinas-fishing-fleet-heading-for-australia-amid-trade-war/S5DVWRRFTB2IPAYSB3S3KWHFLI/
They are already asserting themselves near Singapore.
https://thetaiwantimes.com/chinese-coastguard-loitering-in-indonesian-waters-latest-frontier-challenge-by-beijing/
The latest additions to the Chinese Coastguard are larger in displacement than a Ticonderoga. It is going to take a decades long team effort to constrain China with naval assets as she attempts to feed her population. She needs to import food. We have something in common at least.
The only way to bring China to be a democratic country is to undermine the leadership from within. Cyber is key. We could do a lot worse than smuggle in bibles.
You make alot of good points Farouk, but none of that make any difference, the UK still needs trading partners and China is too big a market to ignore. Politicians are pragmatic not moral
China has an advanced anti ballistic missile defense already, with many examples of successful intercepts. I fear they already think they can counter Trident.
An ABM system can only successfully intercept an ICBM in the boost stage, that is relatively near a launch site.
Mid course interception, is much harder, but then again you would need ABM systems based in other countries like the US has, or from ships 1000s Km’s away from homeland.
Thinking you can counter an IBM? You’d better KNOW you can.
There is huge difference between intercepting a short or medium range and taking out an incoming trident mirv. I assume that’s the thinking behind using warhead numbers to counter anti ballistic kit. USA has most experience with there several systems but most have to hit target shortly afte launch. GMD I believe hits in orbit before entry, patriot aegis thaad, the costs are huge and it’s success rate against ICBM limited
I am just thinking of a few new flavours of jam we will be promised later today; Cyber, Space Command, Tempest, Autonomous blah blah, Type 32, Research Vessel, Strike Brigades (an old jam but rebranded due to poor customer experience).
I am so pleased they are growing the RN.
It’s going to be interesting to see if anything substantial is announced or if it is just vague statements about investing in new tech and nothing actually confirmed on details of how this money will be spent or how the threat will be combated. From the rumours it seems a fair bit of the money will be gong to UK based jobs to shore up the union after the mess Boris has made of it recently.
What mess? You are just making it up. The SNP will sneer at who ever it suits them. Even their former leader.
Boris fake holiday, his trip to Scotland during lockdown, general feeling of mishandling covid, attempts to reign in the power of the Scottish government etc etc, they have all basically helped the SNP. Right now if there and an vote today, independent Scotland would happen unfortunately. Luckily it won’t happen today and there is time to fix things.
You are talking nonsense. He is PM, he can go to Scotland. Ministers have been visiting places.
You are all fake.
Not really. The country is in lockdown and the guidance is only travel where it is required. Why does the PM need to travel to Scotland to visit a drug company for a PR stunt. It just erodes the countries faith in the approach. Same with Cummings, he should have apologised when he breached the rules but instead the Boris backed him blindly. Like it or not this has all impacted the vote and opinion polls put a independence win as much more likely now that it was a year ago.
Why is Eastenders being produced in a distanced way? Why are other TV programmes which are produced all over the country in a distanced way?
Your argument falls totally flat. The PM is not running around in a mob like left wing anarchists. Its his job. Suck it up.
You’d almost think Steve is a Guardian reader. LOL.
Very True!
For gods sake get grip it’s getting as bad as USA with all political woke rubbish backstabbing and tittltattle. If milkmen traffic wardens delivery guys, postmen, car garages, newsagents are open I think the guy in charge of the country can visit an area under his control. Just keep to defence and not the blah blah I hate boris and he’s so mean rubbish. You have an election, vote, u lost now put up and vote him out next time, it’s called democracy. Any defence stuff u want to talk about?
I believe the details are on the 22nd in the DWP. Today is general ISR direction and usual political grandstanding.
Your right it is the 22nd for the details and I should apologise for my rather sarcastic sense of humour but having seen how U.K. defence policy has been handled for the 35 years I can’t help it.
Given Boris is making today’s announcement it will certainly be devoid of detail.
Don’t apologise. I share it!!!
Yawn.
Talk about jam tomorrow, this government must have shares in Hartley!
Disappointing that we have to wait. This review not only is of interest to defence, but the wider economy and how the tories are going to manage the massive new debt caused by covid.
Splitting it means they can grandstand today and win votes with vague promises of investment and jobs and then try and hide the cuts later on. Good political move, but not a good one if you care about how our public money is actually spent.
The debt just stays there. like the same debt that the whole world has run up. What is important is to get those who lost their jobs back to work. But in terms of retail there are a whole world is in the middle of changing. I dont see the jobs of shop assistants and fitters comn back.
Extra 24 billion? How much jam do you want. The trouble is that the services, not least the Army, have wasted a whole larder full of jam.
Are they actually expanding it I wonder.
We suspect there will be short term cuts and 1-2 frigates and the mine hunters seem likely. In replacement we will probably get vague promises of expanding the fleet through the new t32, but at a guess they won’t start being built until the t31 have been finished, which means pletny of time to get cut back due to budget limitations etc and/or also cut back the t26 (maybe on the basis that the 2nd order is no longer needed as automonus platforms has made them redundent).
We have all seen it time and time before.
The T32 has to be designed first. Its all speculation that it would be just a version of the 31. The 32 did not come from the politicians, it came from the requirement of the Navy.
It might be a requirement of the navy but it is proceeding due to politicians. I doubt the navy has ever asked for cuts etc, but they get forced on them. Let’s hope the t32 actually is a war fighter and not another opv in digise.
It comes down the the mandate given to the navy. If that mandate was you have to have ships in all these waters for flag flying and increase the overall vessel count but with no extra cash and no mention of needing them to be war fighters, then the navy would have no choice but to go for more stretched OPV with the hope one day they will be fully fitted out.
The Sun? I think it’s best we just wait for the review to publish later on than pay even the slightest attention to what the tabloids are saying
That can’t be right Levi, the Sport mentions we are getting a moon base, or was it a bus on the moon, I get confused with advancing years??
I should stop reading the Sport mate !!!!
It was a WW2 bomber on the Moon and a Bus inside an Iceburg. That said I did (and still do) like watching the intro to the TV program UFO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2PoXfZdYVU
Ha…. Is it the lass with the Blue Rinse ?
The theme tune from UFO is the ringtone on my phone and how cool was SkyDiver, now THAT could be the future of the RN/FAA !
If true then it was entirely predictable. Both would need significant work during LIFEX for only a few more years of service. Not great but it’s only a temporary reduction in numbers.
Hasn’t Montrose already been LIFEX’D .?.
Yes she has. Came out of one refit/maintenance period and went back in for LIFEX.
my bad yes she has. Will still need a lot of maintenance after her current deployment. I would imagine her material state isn’t good.
I wonder if She will see Service elsewhere, Greece might be a possibility even as a Stopgap ?.
Likely with some work done to her beforehand, much like we did with Chile. Basically the price was the cost of the maintenance and upgrades. Keeps the yards busy. I would imagine the MOD has been drumming up interest already.
It’s actually pretty good. The issue will be the mandatory docking period that will turn up a load of issues to fix. So better to not bother.
This doesn’t sound good.
“Tobias Ellwood, Conservative chair of the Defence Committee, said on Monday that the country was about to witness a “shocking reduction” in conventional hard power in favour of “niche capabilities”.
He said the UK must adapt to new threats but this “does not mean that the old threats have disappeared”, adding that severe cuts to the armed forces would “worry our closest allies and delight our competitors”.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56410532
Let’s see guys, hold off judgement until it’s released.
I’m not too concerned about the loss of a couple of hanging Type 23’s that are only effectively scrap anyway.
By the time these vessels had gone though very expensive refit, they would be ready to be sold anyway….
Providing this news is accompanied by full confirmation of T26, T31 and more news on T32. Let’s hope this is a continuation of T31 build with a better equipment fit.
I’m looking for confirmation of 24 Frigates and Destroyers with a time frame for the builds.
equipment fit.
I’m looking for confirmation of 24 Frigates and Destroyers with a time frame for the builds.
Standby to be very disappointed.
Its more Jam tomorrow and will be cancelled or trimmed back over the coming years.
I fear you are right Mark, but life hasn’t quite managed to kick the glass half full out of me yet!
24 Frigates and destroyers ? What at the same time ? dropping two before any of the 26, 31 and 32’s will cause a mathematical problem 11+6 = 17, + a dribble of type 26’s and “At Least 5” type 31’s over a long, long build time will i very much doubt give us the 24 often quoted.
All these numbers are not active at the same time.
No, Really ?
That is effectively coming from the horses mouth as it were and is extremely worrying. Our forces have seen horrifying cuts that have reduced them to a mere shadow of what they were. What was it Boris said – no more cuts????
24 billion extra announced?
That should just about cover the Blackhole in the existing budget. But nevertheless, cuts will be made to already badly overstretched assets we currently have, leaving us no better off…..
My cynicism with the establishment and their foolish attitudes on UK defense, would lead me to believe Tobias Ellwood, one of a small number of MPs who seems to have any concern or knowledge on defense issues. I can not understand what possible benefit UK receives from this endless series of cuts, the word reckless, complacent and dumb come to mind !
Not a huge surprise on the T23’s as they would presumably require LIFEX for only a handful of years more service.
The fate of the Hunts and Sandowns is more concerning. I’d like to think the announcement will be for a gradual draw down just a little ahead of schedule – with some solid plans for remote mine-hunting kit and other hulls (sadly not a new class in all likelihood but a mix of existing assets) to be ready for a phased change-over.
If the lack of gossip means that nothing else that previously looked vulnerable like the Albion’s will chopped it will by no means be a terrible outcome.
Indeed. If just 2 T23 and the MCMV I’d bite your hand off.
See that is the thing re the MCMV for me.
They can self deploy, the new boats cannot. So an escort or RFA / future mothership type, whatever, has to be committed.
If rapid deployment is needed, if the Hercs go and we are left with 8 C17 and 22 Atlas that is now another commitment they take up while also now carrying out the mission that 14 Hercs were needed for, and a vital one at that.
Having seen the new boats up close in Plymouth Sound anything more than a force 4 and their actually practical use would be suspect. Are we only going to do mine clearance in calm weather?
The loss of the Hercs would be a very poor decision. Whilst I reluctantly except we are no longer a serious land based player we do offer NATO some capabilities that only the US can otherwise provide and our airlift capability is one of them.
Given we may find our forces deployed in part in the Far and Middle East retaining the Hercs provide airlift that is adequate for operations closer to home whilst also supporting our Special Forces.
Agree. The Hercs loss is the one worrying me most, more than anything else in this review.
Very true Daniele,
They do appear to be suggesting a proper shift to Strike Brigades, that means heavy airlift.
For Strike brigades to have the same psychological impact as having an aircraft carrier ‘on route’, then you need to get the lead combat elements into position quickly and world wide.
That means a small balanced force of 1800 ‘ish’ mobile troops, bristling with firepower, drones in over watch and an AH64E and Typhoon force detachment to protect them and Helicopter support etc.
Ideally, you would want the first boots on the ground inside 24 hours, SF and the required SF support force etc, with the rest in country in a week.
The force could be increased in size from there up to 6,500 over a longer period, but, if you can rapidly deploy the very tip of the spear at speed, you might just face down an aggressor and prevent a war from happening in the first place.
This is the direction I would be pushing our 2020’s force structure in.
To underpin this, you would need a serious UK heavy transport fleet of 50 A400 and 12 C17 (I would suggest we hoover up any secondhand C17’s we can get our hands on), plus the existing C130 force of 13, for local mobility and rapid deployment of SF elements.
A robust and substantial UK owned heavy lift capability is absolutely essential, we need to be able to move combat elements and re supply them quickly without reliance on Allies, who might not share the same priorities as the UK.
Its all about showing ‘intent’ and letting hostile powers know that we are up for the fight and wont hesitate to protect British interests world wide.
In essence, I suppose it’s taking a Special forces approach to larger force elements, making a psychological impact on a potential aggressor and all in the full glare of the worlds media.
Totally agree with all of this and for me it will be a litmus test of the Government’s intent on genuinely adapting our defence posture to becoming lighter but more mobile with a maritime focused U.K. military. Anything else is just the same old patter.
If indeed the drips/rumours are true, Montrose will be sold complete with Sea Ceptor to Brazil opening up a new export market for the missile and further Type 23s. Not sure if Monmouths LIFEX has already been paid for? If it is cancelled it will have a knock on effect for Babcock, but I suspect it might be completed with subsequent sale to Brazil. The Type 23s are decent ships and will find homes with Foreign navies, whilst we put HMS Victory back into active service and start fitting small weapons to rowing boats.
Monmouth has had her main gun removed.
She looks like being used for spares!
Shes been stripped ready for LIFEX, same happened to a lot of the others including Lancaster and Iron Duke.
Should there be no votes in defence, then why are the Sun even wasting space on speculating?
Thinpinstripped line went through reasons for losing FOUR T23, so the news is?
Vis:
They are knackered
They’d cost too much to refit
Allows crews down time as important PIDs are filled on other ships
Brings, some, balance to the budget
Of course that view may be correct however, it ignores the woeful procurement timeline of T26, added to which is my personal bugbear of announcing things several times – this government announce an arrival more times than the announcer at Clapham Junction.
People, this Govt has had eleven years to get it right, it has failed.
I hope you like a dogs dinner because I plenty of it being made.
While its always shitty to get anything cut, this is probably the safest and best of a few bad options for the RN. Wont have much of an impact on routine dpeloyments and training, i dont think? However my fear is the for the Puma fleet, the C130Js, the “x” amount of chinooks (no new ones or getting rid of a few older models?) and the loss of 24 Typhoons, alebit tranche ones, useful but pretty much again again probably best of some more bad options given to the RAF. As for the Army, yes deep cuts expected but a total reorg is needed, and the Army and the CDS have pretty much only ourselves to blame. sad but true.
Bloody hell are my fingers getting wider or my phone is shrinking, far to many spelling errors…oops.
I hear ya bro, I much prefer using the laptop to the phone due to snorker fingers.
As for the cuts, sorry, ‘review’, I’ll wait until this afty but its hard not to be cynical.
So whilst we all wait with baited breath regards the latest defence review, on how the Tories will fund the military regards defence of the realm from outside influences such as Russia and China. I read that not only does the government seek closer ties with China but they paid a Russian company to build the new media centre in Downing st:
Russian link to Boris’s £2.6m press briefing room: Downing Street suite was kitted out by firm linked to Kremlin-backed broadcaster RT
The £2.6 million renovation of Downing Street’s new White House-style press briefing room was carried out by a Russian firm with links to state-controlled broadcaster Russia Today, it has emerged. The construction of the room within No 9 Downing Street began last year when the government announced plans to hold televised briefings. Earlier this month, it was revealed that the government spent £2.6 million to make the room ready for the briefings, which will be fronted by former journalist Allegra Stratton.
Now, photos have revealed the result of the work including a plush new studio and seating for reporters. In a nod to the White House, a podium is at the head of the room complete with an official Downing Street lectern in front of four Union Jack flags. However, shortly after the photos were released it emerged the taxpayer-funded renovations were carried out by Russian firm Megahertz. Megahertz was hired to install microphones, control desks, cameras and computers and is owned by Okno-TV, a Moscow-based company that works closely with state controlled broadcaster Russia Today.
I suppose next the Tories will replace the Church of England with ISIS as the state faith
Could you make it up? Seriously??
Love the name of the Russian company Okno – now, I would translate that as… Window… In the 60s the Sovs bugged the communication cables running past the Russian Embassy to GCHQ et al, now, they get invited in to deck out a secure area, hello FSB.
The current Tory government has become one of the most corrupt in the world since Johnson became leader, Cameron and May kept the corrupt away from office as much as they could but in the end the corrupt lot are now in charge.
They’re all millionaires in some cases billionaires with shady offshore accounts in the Cayman islands and links to Russian oligarchs, getting paid substantial sums of money from Russians for a game of Tennis or a cup of tea and a chat, they’re sole purpose in government is to get themselves and they’re allies/friends as rich and powerful as possible.
Worst death rate in the world and according to the bootlickers it’s not their fault, it’s the public’s for not following instructions..lol, nothing to do with keeping airports open right up until a couple of months ago, there were videos of thousands getting off planes in Heathrow not even stopped for a test and just heading out there, this happened from last March until this year! Johnson was telling the public he was shaking hands with covid patients weeks after it was spreading around the world, missing SAGE meetings ignoring advice, let all out pandemic PPE stock go years out of date and yet still they have the gullible bootlicking public batting for them.
They have allies with considerable Tory links in the positions of power at the BBC, have 90% of the print media in their corner and they still manage to convince the bootlickers to believe that the media is “left wing” lol..so it’s very, very easy for them to control the right wing masses with little pots of honey like increased money for defence, levelling up, world beating, on the side of police, tougher sentences, global Britain, and their paid for media spreads that to their bootlicking voters, that’s why they can get away with giving taxpayers money to their friends with no experience & pay a Moscow firm to work in Downing Street, and it will be reported by the Guardian and independent, later reported on the news, a minister will be asked about it in the morning and lie to our faces and not answer the questions and that will be the end of it.
It’s already started with this review, leaks have already come out, take the F-35b for example, order dramatically cut and bootlickers on here defend the decisions by talking about Tempest, a cardboard cut out at an air show as reason it’s not all bad, it’s pathetic.
Or the army being cut again, and the defence is, “oh we will only be engaged in low scale flash points” or “we have better high end tech now” well what the f**k are the carriers for then if we won’t be involved in large scale war ffs. The bootlickers make no sense and are full of contradictions and it’s the reason this review will come, loads of stuff will be cut but a few pots of honey in the future announced and teased and all is forgiven, even though 90% of these promises won’t come true. And I bet the same bootlickers will find a positive spin somewhere out of it.
Ha ha ha ha…
TrevorH I agree with you, the statement by SoleSurvivor was funny. Most Con Govts are corrupt.
I agree as well!
I read that report as well and had a good snigger. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when they sweep it for bugs, and also to be in Moscow when they realise one or two have got through the net!
Surely the difference between 180 thermonuclear warheads & 260 is the difference between killing everyone twice or three times and offers very marginal extra deterrence? Surely the money would be better spent on the cash strapped conventional forces? Honestly I don’t get it so if someone could explain…
A Trident based in the Pacific, would be a better location, to cover both Russia and China.
CASD ! Who knows where they are ?
All the minesweepers/minehunters? So much for the millions spent on establishing a naval base in the Middle East then! These politicians don’t know what they are doing. A growing navy? Who are they kidding?
This is previewed on several sources. Seems sensible. They would be refurbished only to then go almost soon after.
Er… is anyone listening to the online IntReview? Bluffer Blowjob has just said that we will have 24 frigates mid 20s as opposed to the fifteen we have now!
15 ?