Exercise Green Eel pits UK’s finest against Norwegian and German underwater ‘adversaries’.
British naval air squadrons recently engaged in a rigorous underwater pursuit exercise in the challenging waters of the Norwegian fjords.
The endeavour, dubbed ‘Exercise Green Eel,’ saw the participation of around 100 men and women from the 824 and 814 Naval Air Squadrons. The squadrons, typically stationed at Royal Naval Air Station Culdrose near Helston in Cornwall, undertook the journey north to participate in this multinational cooperation.
The Royal Navy forces were stationed near Bergen, on the western side of Norway, at the Haakonsvern Helikopterbase. The scenic base, perched atop a steep hill flanked by pine trees, offered panoramic views of the fjords and naval base below. With its modern, Scandinavian-designed buildings, the Royal Navy sailors dubbed the facilities ‘Tracy Island’, for its likeness to the futuristic headquarters from TV puppet show Thunderbirds.
The exercise saw three Merlin Mk2 helicopters carrying out a series of drills against Norwegian and German submarines. Captain Stuart Irwin, the commanding officer of RNAS Culdrose, appreciated the multinational collaboration. He said, “The ability to work closely with our allies in Norway during Exercise Green Eel has been a superb opportunity for all involved and gave us excellent access to train with live conventional submarines.”
De Germans are hiding in the fjords again!
Best get 9 and 617Sqns dusting off the Tallboys!
Can you drop a tallboy out of a C17, I wonder??
Yes, sort of. After WW2 we gave the plans of Tallboy and Grand Slam to the US. From which the US built a copy of Grand Slam marked as the T10, which then evolved in to the heavier T12 Cloudmaker.
This bomb was one of the primary weapons of the B36. However, it was also carried and dropped by a Hercules in trials. Carried on a sled in the hold, then with the ramp down, using the parachute extraction method to drag it out of the Herc.
This idea using parachute extraction was then used for the later fuel-air weapons, such as MOAB.
So in theory most of the details have been done before. Getting the weapon out of the C17’s hold won’t be the problem. How it reacts to the aircraft’s wake will need testing and managing. But it should be doable. Add the seeker and nav kit from Paveway, perhaps even a rocket booster. You could make a Tallboy or Grand Slam significantly more accurate and deadly.
I’m not sure what the rocket booster would achieve!
Something that heavy will have plenty of kinetic energy on touch down!
But with a guidance system that would be some bunker buster.
A lot would depend on the release altitude of the “freefall” bomb. Anything above 20,000ft will have negligible effect on the bomb’s acceleration.
But if we are looking for deep penetration a higher kinetic speed will help a lot. Both Tallboy and Grand Slam especially hit the ground at around Mach 1, when released from 13,000ft. But both of these were originally designed for soft earth penetration, to create a void, which would collapse a building’s foundations. The RN designed the Disney bomb, which was a bunker buster. It was rocket assisted and hit the ground at speeds of around Mach 1.3. It was slightly lighter than a Tallboy. But due to its smaller explosive charge did less damage than a Tallboy or Grand Slam.
It’s amazing to think that a Storm Shadow has a similar penetration value to Grand Slam, even though its considerably lighter, which is due to its two stage warheads.
“ It’s amazing to think that a Storm Shadow has a similar penetration value to Grand Slam, even though it’s considerably lighter, which is due to its two stage warheads.”
That is advanced computational science and modelling over a great idea filled with common sense.
The joys of using super compression from one charge to tamp another charge’s explosive effect.
After all this time reading your posts, I’m going to say it, fuck me Davey you know some shit don’t you! Impressive and informative, keep it coming mate! Educate the uneducated like me! 😂👍
And what about all those who have been pining for the fjords for so long…?
” he’s not dead, he’s only resting” 😂😂🤣
Beautiful bird the Norwegian Blue-lovely plumage 😂
The plumage don’t enter into it…
Do you get wafers with it?
They need to be careful of disturbing the Nowegian Blue- no shouting “Wake Up Poly”
😂 enough now gents. George is going to banish us all to Stalingrad!
Not much fun in Stalingrad…….
The youngsters might be scratching their heads wondering what the old farts are on about!
You try telling the young people of today… they won’t believe you.
The four Yorkshiremen, now we’re going down the rabbit hole 👍
‘This is Broadsword calling Danny Boy…..’
Thales showing off the Peregrine UAS light unmanned surface search radar and surveillance platform that will start being carried by Type 23 early next year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrgyFd_jt18
It’s based on Schiebel’s 17 year old Camcopter S-100 design. Our one will have a good Thales sensor suite. An automatic identification system (AIS) combined with the CarteNav AIMS mission system will facilitate the rapid detection and identification of unknown targets. Peregrine will also feature Thales I-Master radar, which can be operated in both synthetic aperture radar and maritime moving target indication modes.
It has a range of 200km on 6 hours endurance, though it can be fitted with an auxilary tank which would give it 12 hours. Ideal for keeping tabs on the IRGC small high speed craft in the Persian Gulf
That sounds like a great system. Situational awareness is key in almost any mission. The more aware of the surroundings allows more solutions to problems to be worked out.
Exactly. Especially in the Persian Gulf, where there all sorts of Iran naval threats etc 24/7
Is the I-Master all that good? I think it got a revamp the middle of last decade, but I didn’t rate it all that highly. I’m surprised they didn’t go Leonardo.
I like the system as a whole though and having it integrated into Lancaster’s CMS will be a huge plus.
The I-Master is compact, lightweight and it’s said to be all-weather. Like most things on an unmanned smallish helicopter, it will be a trade-off between performance, weight and cost.
The I-Master SAR is capable of high-resolution remote sensing independent of flight altitude and weather, as SAR can usually select frequencies to avoid weather-caused signal attenuation. I-master should allow tracking of multiple threats; the bigger the synthetic aperture, the higher the resolution of the images it can generate.
Leonardo probably have a better system, but do they have an equivalent to Peregrine?
If you mean an equivalent to the Camcopter platform, yes, Leonardo have the AW Hero. If memory serves, the RN was involved in its genesis, but dropped it early on. Italy ran with it. I don’t recall the details.
From what I can tell it’s a toss up between the two platforms performance-wise. The only real advantage the AW Hero would have had is the Yeovil could have built and maintained it. The Schiebel also has its pros, such as it’s already in service with the coastguard and has a wider customer base.
I have no problem with the overall Peregrine system as a system. I don’t know if anyone has the operational equivalent of that.
Our T31s will need a hull sonar.
T31 is too loud to use a hull mounted sonar, it will use drones for such work if required. It’s a general purpose frigate, no point in gold plating it for ASW.
T31s are not of course equipped with specialist hull noise damping, that’s what makes T26 so expensive. But every escort class since WW2 & most during had Asdic or sonar, a great many noisier vessels than T31s will be. I’m not aware of any modern escort ships without hull sonar for ASW detection work. It is in no way a “gold plating” fit, but a very basic part of escort warship fit. We have a tiny escort fleet & cannot afford to have a 1/3 or 1/4(by the time numbers increase to 20+ after 2030 or so) without ASW capability.
When a Merlin is embarked it can search for subs, Wildcats can’t, at least our RN Wildcats. So if a T31 is at sea unsupported, she is incapable of combating subs, unless a Merlin is embarked. If not we are just hoping in vain the sub will choose not to engage either her or any vessel she is otherwise protecting. It is idiocy & criminal neglegence too.
If the RN has drones to hunt subs & they are embarked on T31s, then great. I’ve not heard of that. If that were definate, or even proposed, we’d have heard of that over various media. IMO no warship is an escort without basic sub hunting sonar. That is always a most basic part of being “General Purpose”. Every other navy with frigates & destroyers, even most of the corvettes have hull sonar & asw torpedo launchers, usually in addition to fully ASW capable embarked helicopters.
We are neglecting to adequately arm our warships, gapping basic capabilities & here sensors for the T31 too, not for any wise or sound reasons, but simply because we’re too tight & ignorant morally to provide essential warfighting kit that would save lives, material & preserve us if & when needed. We play Russian roulette with the lives of our crews & those relying on them. Performing verbal gymnastics to go along with HMG/MOD spin making out that that is all fine, reasonable & dandy never cuts it in action in cold harsh reality.
At the very least they could transfer the sonars from the T23 GP as they’re retired & put them on the T31s.
I was thinking more along the lines of T45 sonar, basic fit but not for advanced ASW.
Me too.
Excellent post. You are spot on. To call a hull sonar gold plating is beyond ridiculous.
The percentage of the escort fleet with no ASW capabilities will increase from 35% today to 58% when T31 replaces T23 GP. I’m counting T45 as having no capability as they have only a basic mine hunting sonar which is rumoured to be no longer manned.
Anything that can carry a Merlin has ASW capability, that concept will extend further in future with UUV’s.
That Merlin may not be carried at all sometimes(Wildcat instead), tasked eslewhere, under maintainance or destroyed. That’s why you need a basic ASW hull sonar.
You are absolutely correct mate good post, unfortunately far too many just dont really understand the basics of ASW!
It’s deffo Greek to me mate! I rely on you blokes to keep me informed and educated on such matters! The SMEs on here are worth their weight in gold!
Leonardo is developing rotary drones to hunt subs for the RN: Project Proteus, with a demonstrator due to fly in 2025. At three tons MTOW, these are small helicopter sized. Even then you need a sea-based sonar to help you locate the area. You can’t just get your rotary to scatter sonobuoys at random.
The RN also have MSubs building a new underwater drone, the XLUUV Cetus. Its predecessor trialled a thin-line towed array sonar, KraitArray, so it’s expected Cetus (to be delivered end of 2024) will also be outfitted for sub hunting.
Both of these could be embarked on a Type 31. However, both will be demonstrators, and it’s unknown when drones from these projects are intended to be operational.
The sonars from the Type 23 are going onto the second batch of the Type 26s. There should be three sets left over.
Jim thats utter tosh mate, T31 is no louder than any other GP warship thats got a hull mounted active sonar. Back in the day, our T42’s had the same hull sonar as the T22’s, so no difference really.
T45 sonar is a bag of s++t, its a modified mine detection set, so will only have very limited use in a active asw environment. To much penny pinching by whomever Im afraid.
Submarines were a lot noisier back in the day. Hull mounted sonars are not much use today and will be even less so in future.
If your in one of these ships during a conflict undertaking escort activities alone, you might disagree with not having any way to track incoming subsurface threats. We don’t have enough Merlin’s to ensure that all ships have one and one isn’t enough to provide constant detection during any transit. Hull mounted sonars might not be as effective as they once were but they are considerably better than nothing. If the t31 needs to be escorted itself then what is the point of it.
That wasn’t the opinion of Ultra, who claimed at a recent show that modern HMSs can be usefully employed even on “ships of opportunity” – in other words any old commercial vessel nevermind a warship. The HMS mounting is isolated from the ship’s vibrations so even if it’s a noisier environment, the sonar can still usefully pick up signals.
Jim, SMs being noiser back in the day is no reflection on the capability of a hull mounted sonar, which while it has a passive capability is fundamentally a active system. So, totally irrelevant as to how noisy a SM is, hull mounted systems ‘ping’ to gain a contact.
Don’t know where you get the notion that modern hull systems are not much use today from fella? That’s a totally skewed outlook I’m afraid. The majority are pretty good systems that do the job they are designed for. No they can’t compete with a all around system (ST 2087) mounted on something like a T23/26, but then they are not meant to.
A warship that doesn’t have a sonar, is at the mercy of any underwater threat. While both T31/45 can conduct maritime ops in any ocean, the Navy is accepting a huge risk with them not having a hull sonar. In effect to survive in a all threat environment, they will need escorting by a ASW capable unit. We don’t have enough of those do we?
Let’s just get as many in the water as possible then upgrades can be added.
The old 2050 hull-mounted sonars are being upgraded on the ASW Type 23s. Presumably the new 2150s will be moved on to the Type 26s as the Type 23s are phased out. We know an extra three have been bought to facilitate swap over. It would make a lot of sense to buy two extra ones to fully equip the Type 31s in the 2030s.
Ultra are also making 2150s for the Hunters and the CSCs, so they’ll probably be as cheap as they’ll ever get with such a large run.