In a recent Public Accounts Committee session examining the Defence Equipment Plan 2023-33, Mark Francois MP revealed that “people are leaving the Armed Forces at a ratio of three people leaving for every one who joins”.
Dame Meg Hillier presided as the Chair, with members Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Mr Jonathan Djanogly, Mrs Flick Drummond, Mr Mark Francois, Sarah Owen, and Gary Sambrook contributing their expertise.
The meeting was joined by of Gareth Davies, the Comptroller and Auditor General of the National Audit Office, alongside Rebecca Sheeran, the NAO’s Executive Director, and Marius Gallaher from HM Treasury in the role of Alternate Treasury Officer of Accounts.
The panel of witnesses brought together key figures from the Ministry of Defence, including David Williams, the Permanent Secretary; Tom Wipperman, overseeing Strategic Finance and Investment Approvals; Andy Start, leading Defence Equipment and Support; and Lt General Sir Robert Magowan, the Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff with a focus on Financial and Military Capability.
Mr Francois kicked things off, asking about Army numbers.
“Mr Williams, on Saturday, Larisa Brown, the excellent defence editor of The Times, had a front-page splash entitled, “Army numbers to drop below 70,000 ‘in two years’”. This is germane to an examination of the equipment plan, because, as you well know, unless you have suitably qualified and experienced personnel—SQEP, as the military calls them—to maintain your kit and keep it working, you can spend all the money that you want on very expensive equipment, and some of it in this plan is incredibly expensive, but, if you cannot maintain it, it is no good to anybody. It could be a ship left on the harbour wall, a tank in the tank park, or an aircraft that is a hangar queen. What are you doing to stop the absolute haemorrhaging of people leaving the Armed Forces?”
David Williams: replied:
“The projection in that article is one from recent trends rather than our plan. It is an issue that all three services and the Department are taking seriously. Our approach is a combination of a range of short-term measures to increase attraction and retention. Some of that involves proposals around financial incentives, for example, as well as longer-term initiatives, including recommendations from the Haythornthwaite review from last summer about how we think about patterns of service and zigzag careers, and make sure that we are accessing the skills that we need.”
Francois responded:
“Mr Williams, I am sorry to cut across you, but, as you are well aware, there is never enough time in these sessions, so apologies for keeping this tightly focused. At the moment, across all three services, people are leaving the Armed Forces at a ratio of three people leaving for every one who joins. I deliberately use the analogy of the National Health Service, where my wife works, but that is the equivalent of the patient bleeding out on the operating table. You cannot maintain that for long. If you do, you will have operational failure, because you will not have enough skilled personnel to make it work. What you have said is all very well, but I and the Committee detect no sense of urgency. They are leaving at a rate that you cannot sustain. What are you doing to stop the bleed?”
“I do not immediately recognise the one-to-three ratio”, said Williams. Francois then replied, “That came directly from the fifth floor, privately”.
Who would have thought insulting the white working class constantly in the media and the government would have an effect on young white boys wanting to serve the country it’s almost a mystery why that would have an effect
Time and again they have reaffirmed that the mad social experiments are far more important than an effective fighting force. Will they come to their senses before it’s too late? We can only hope.
It would be nice to see whoever was involved and implement this cancerous social experiment into the UK to stand trial.
Nothing to do with Woke or Liberal and the rest of it. Its the poor pay, its the substandard accomodation. I was in the army and the barracks was literally falling to pieces
Could also be to do with the very low unemployment rate. Armed Force’s all around the world are having the same problems.
just over 4% isn’t super low, but isn’t high enough to encourage people to join up.
I believe it’s just how others have said. They have been insulting the 82%. Whether it’s gender or race, why would white kids want to join up when every advert you see isn’t them. If I were made to feel like a second class citizen, I would say bugger it too.
If someone is put off from joining up because of the colour of somebody’s skin on an advert. Then they don’t really want to join up. And maybe they aren’t the correct person for the Force’s. White lads are on adverts, too. I worked with lads and lasses for all four corners of the country. All social backgrounds. Different races and religions. And everyone got on and worked very well together. Race is only a problem for some who use this site. The Force needs to appeal to everyone.
If that’s the case why aren’t they all white then …as using your rationale it wouldnt matter.
It does make a difference of course it does…and it cuts both ways.
Because our Armed Force’s have to represent the whole of our society. Regardless of the percentages. Our Force’s are still 90+% white males.
Well said there.
Women are 50% of the population, Ethnic minorities (If thats the right term this week) are another 11/12% but more like 18% in the age range the military mainly recruit from, then there is a number of people who are Gay/Bi (your collective term of choice).
White hetrosexual males are 40% of the population, They still make up 90% of the military and are being discriminated against?
If, at the time of a recruiting crisis, the MOD making an effort to reach the 60% who are not currently stepping forward upsets you I do not want you in uniform.
Well said mate.
👍
With the talk of conscription this week there’s been few surveys over the last few days, it shows that ‘white lads’ are the most likely to join up, not earth shattering numbers but nevertheless they lead the field . But its also shown political divides with those who follow certain parties or voted a certain way in the Brexit referendum more likely to join up.
What’s also interesting is some papers publishing articles around what conditions might see people avoid the draft.
At the end of the day, if national mobilisation was activated to defend our nation, many would step up. And some, like in all nations, would try every excuse to get out of it. Many young Americans did everything they could to get out of going to Vietnam. And today, many Ukrainians are doing the same. Who are we to judge.
Diversity in the modern workplace just means implementing the diverse demograph YOU want …its not true diversity.
It’s from the same hymn sheet as positive discrimination..there’s no such thing…but hey it looks good on the TV.
Box>Tick
Hello Grizzler. Inasmuch as any group defined by race have been discriminated against purely on that broadly speaking skin colour criterion, then some limited positive discrimination is justified BUT for example here in SA 30 years after the Mandela miracle we have a situation where White and many Brown people are subject to shocking institutionalized racism. White owned businesses for example are squeezed out of Government and major big company work without a majority Black partner. The only sane requirement must be best person for the job.
On subject, again giving the SA example, is that the UK in my opinion needs to upgrade the whole Reservist structure to encourage more to sign up. The SADF prior to 1994 was 90% conscripts and was one of the most effective Defence Forces in the world. Obviously there were special circumstances here but look at the US National guard for example. Surely the UK with a 60 million plus population can do better than only about 50 000 volunteers!?
Geoff, I agree with respect to the reservist issue. I have a few friends in the States and they are all in their respective National Guard. It’s something the US do very well. There is certainly no looking down on them for being reservists as you see here in the UK. Whether it be from some within the full-time units or the public. It’s a matter of pride that someone has a 20-year career in the National Guard after serving a single term of contract or only ever being in it. I don’t feel we went down the “reservist” reorganisation and implemented change from the old Territorial Army branding. The public still have no perception of the change, some just think the Territorial Army just changed its name.
Thanks ex Marine. On the same page. Perhaps also perpetrators of minor crimes could be offered a stint as a Reservist in lieu of community service or even in the case of a short prison sentence or other such incentives. Even if they could just do a basic training course to introduce them to the Armed Forces that might spark a genuine interest. Also here in SA, we did a year as Cadets in our Matric year at school as 17/18 year old-mainly Parade ground drill but with other related activities. We took the salute from the Mayor of Durban and Officer Commanding Natal Command even though we marched with old .303s firing pins removed!
This was also a big driver in the past. Judge to 18 year old miscreant; prison time or maybe join the Army and contribute to society. Doesn’t seem to happen any more though. Not sure when it changed
No. Stop with this common sense analysis. Surely it’s down to the BBC, or mad social experiments, chem trails, gypsies or Ukrainian nazis.
In USA not surprisingly also have had a significant reduction of white people joining the armed forces.
It’s almost certainly a demographic thing, than anything else. Poorer people are more likely to join the armed forces as a way to get out of the cycle. Unfortunately even today in the UK and US there are more none white people in poverty than white by a significant margin. We are still a long way from a colour blind society that we should live in by now.
Anything that shows that the armed forces are different would help a lot with recruitment.
What’s the incentive? Low pay, poor housing, or a lack of equipment.
That might have to change one way or another due to the current climate.
IAV 2024: British Army only has confirmed funding for 18% of equipment plan26 January 2024
“The British Army only has confirmed funding for 18% of its GBP44 billion (USD55.9 billion) Equipment Plan 2023–33, British Army’s Chief of the General Staff General Patrick Sanders told Defence iQ’s International Armoured Vehicle (IAV) 2024 conference held in London from 22 to 25 January.
He also spoke of the need for the British Army to have a strength of 120,000 personnel, comprising regular soldiers, reservists, and strategic reserves (previously trained predominantly ex-regular service personnel held at low readiness).
A UK Ministry of Defence spokesperson told Janes on 25 January that GBP9.3 billion of the British Army’s GBP42.4 billion 10-year equipment plan budget is committed. She went on to state that it is common practice for the equipment plan to have both “committed” and “uncommitted” spending to ensure substantial uncommitted headroom is maintained over the period of the plan, with on average 25% currently committed.”
Bravo.
How is it insulting the white working class to have a few non white people in adverts? Blaming migrants for everything is like blaming stowaways on the titanic for the lack of life boat spots
That’s nonsense. Its the pay which is poor and thus putting off people joining
Well the good news is, due to my skin colour, there’s no chance of me becoming a second class citizen anytime soon. Stag on suckers.
Joking aside, I would like to see an inquiry into the awarding of army recruiting to Captia and if anybody in power received a backhander, then jail time
Ah, but wokeness is the cause of all of our problems, not incompetence or misgovernance, so Capita will be left to keep messing up recruiting.
Wokeness is a problem, of course, but I fear we are at the stage that it is now the sole focus of certain groups that really should know better.
Both are contributing factors. Crapita are a waste of time. I had cause to go to my old school in November for an old boys event. It used to be prime picking for the Royal Navy, RAF and junior Army Officer programmes. They haven’t been in the school on a recruitment day since 2014.
Heavens forbid those anti everything socialist teachers should encourage -nay allow – students to even consider joining the forces…the antithesis of all they stand for.
I’m not saying that Grizzier. It appears to have been taken off the table insofar as an option for a career. I know serval people in my year who went on to senior leadership in the Army, RAF and RN.
Bravo.
We keep giving contracts to these big utility companies and they are alway profoundly shit…jacks of all trades masters of nothing at all they get the contracts and then Cobble together a sub par team to deliver a load of shite while creaming in the profits and paying the chief exec a fortune..
Or how Capita have the temerity to brag about they hsve transformed military recruitment!!!
Sounds like the numbers might not be 100% accurate or have been spun a little. Privately given indicates someone has an axe to grind and the minister being able to state he isn’t aware of that figure indicates he has some wiggle room (not lying) but not stating outright that they were incorrect is also telling. Surely the data is available, and in the public domain.
A previous article showed the recruitment targets were missed every year since Capita took over. There are obviously additional factors-
* Pay especially for specialist skills is not competitive
* An overwhelming sense of continuing contraction in numbers and hence future opportunities together with widely publicised failures in equipment programmes.
But it must be time to take recruitment back in house.
What might also help is a clear public commitment to end the sense of decline ie a promise of no more cuts.
This ‘issue’ has always been a particular ‘bug-bear’ to me, since my son joined the Army some years ago. The stories he relayed to me started innocuous enough. In fact as a former member of the BAOR, I merely thought it was the ravings of a younger generation, who wouldn’t know a bed block hospital corner, from a hexamine block. .
However the ‘issues’ and ‘troubles’ continued, so much so that I asked him and some of his oppo’s, to keep me informed.
It soon became apparent that many of these ‘issues’ stemmed from the biggest human failing of all… greed!
Once upon a time, fresh food was served to British Armed forces personnel in mess halls in camps and bases across the land. Fast forward to the greedy 21st century… Someone in government decides it will be cheaper, to sub contract out most of the catering to a private company.
Soldiers E,F,G,H,I,J,K… told me, and even offered to treat me to mass produced sub contracted ‘food’. To be honest, the term ‘food’ could only be loosely applied, after being presented some pasta based substance. The fact that young people were expected to part with money, in this exchange for this ‘product’ was… unfortunate.
Accommodation and MOD housing. The handing over and responsibility of running of their huge stock of housing to the private sector, was the worse thing the government (whichever one) did to our Armed Forces personnel.
Added to which, the buildings maintenance contract is also in the hands of private thieving companies. Indeed in one case, soldier Z waited over 19 months, to get the radiator fixed in his room.
The two first simple steps to keeping a soldier, sailor or aviator happy… give them good quality food, and someplace warm and healthy to sleep.
Unfortunately, politicians, advisors and freebooters, look upon armed forces personnel as mere ‘clients’, partaking of their services.
And finally to cap it all… politicians, village idiots, and inept social commentators, have taken it upon themselves to ‘diss’ the younger generations, by suggesting that it is they, who have caused the shortages in recruitment, by suggesting that they are “not up for it”.
Nothing of course to do with the decision by the incumbent government, to privatise the recruitment process from start to finish. Why do that? In order to turn the ‘tap’ on or off at any time, with the view to saving money on wages etc?
I could go on for quite a while, however many of you here are aware of these issues, and frankly… I am sick and tired of the way civilians make decisions on daily basis, as to what our armed forces want, and need.
Inded, decades of leadership & scoudrels not remotely up to the job.
As someone who worked with the contractor catering I agree it was always a race to the bottom. Everyone on minimum wage. Cooks on £1 an hour more than kitchen staff. Barely staffed so too much work. No creativity allowed.
Worked with army chefs as their numbers dropped so they have to do all deployments as only a few left.
Forces need to look after forces people. If not there isn’t as much care given.
My partner worked in catering, its an over worked underpaid profession across the board not just, 15 hour shifts we’re not uncommon and wages not far above minimum. They even worked in so high end hotels where you’d think the money be better but its not.
Did any of them mention being made into second class citizens by the wokeists?
Well said. Agree with every word.
It goes well beyond politicians, village idiots, and inept social commentators. Even modern military fiction films will show western militaries as incompetent and military industrial complex as scheming against the population.
And then off course if they do join and are deployed in combat, do something in the heat of combat that they thought to be the correct action at the time, under extreme conditions that most civilians will never understand. these actions could then see them prosecuted.
Who seriously would want to be part of something where there’s so much negativity projected towards it.
Exactly, I think this has far more to do with our problems retaining (and attracting) people into the services than anything else.
second: Capita and their frankly criminal execution of the contract that they’ve been given.
It’s pay and conditions. Stop paying private companies. Pay privates more, give them good food accommodation and other benefits.
Pay and conditions? nonsense!
Clearly it’s three fault of the wokes for making things too woke..
I served my time and I am still in contact with service life. I can tell you the woke agenda is a red herring. It’s pay and conditions.
One case in point the Navy. In particular the submarine service. Not only do you need to volunteer to join the Navy. You then need to volunteer again to join the submarine service. Submarine escape training which I have done is not for everyone. Then once trained you get the delight of leaving Helensburgh diving of the coast and not seeing the light of day for the duration of your patrol. While all patrols are planned in duration they are often extended. In all three services shortage of manpower means operational tours fall to the few available more often. Making family life strained. Privatisation of holme base services means fewer home base appointments. Makes economic sense but hits morale and retention.
One of the ways the Military can pay staff more is to promote them. So you have the perverse situations where you end up with more chiefs than Indians. Unfortunately it is not enough. The Military has a staff crisis. The only way you can fix it is better pay and conditions.
I doubt many who join know what the conditions are really like, so conditions are really about retention not recruitment.
I won’t call it wokery but society has changed. Back in the 1950s WW2 aces and test pilots were household names now its TikTok influencers. Joining services no longer holds the same level of prestige it once did.
I think all the services now run a version of a PRC. It’s normally a Monday to Friday week. Those days being admin and travelling. So three full days where both sides get to take a look at each other and make decision whether to proceed. Originally designed by the military to cut out wastage.
Spend a few minutes on entitledto dot com. Bang in few figures you ‘ll see that someone with 2 kids doing 16 hours a week on just over min wage can get the equivalent a salary before tax of over 40k. Who’s going to join up when you can get much more, work less, not spend weeks away from family.
The reason the MoD uses private companies is because the government doesn’t provide the budget to keep it in house. Why doesn’t the government have the budget I wonder.
I can see why one would leave.
I cannot imagine why one would join.
It was grim “up North” in the ’70s.
Nowhere can be that bad in the UK now.
The best pay and conditions and a respect for everyone in our armed forces is where we need to re-start where everybody is treated as an equal and the best get to the top. If the army has to be smaller but is the best equipped in the world so be it. An elite force who are able to hold there heads up high.
Do you know why most people join the Army?
Judging by your other post I don’t know whether any of us do. Why don’t you tell me what you think?🙄
I was good for not much.
There were not many opportunities.
I joined because that was all that there was.
I met a very few who always wanted to be a soldier.
The rest, just like myself.
Am I better for it, obviously.
If my sprogs or grandsprogs wanted to join – I would break their legs.
Might as well all call it a day then.😶
That’s a good reason for a lot of people. For those people the joining process needs to be swift as a lot lose interest quickly.
Well for my old man it was join up or go down the pit at 14.
Stark
The pits were starting close in my area, the first in 1968.
Most people blame the Tories, Labour closed more pits.
They were closing before 1968. the only thing I would say about the Labour vs Tories pit closer claim is many pit heads were closed or stopped riseing coal under Labour, but it was still connected underground to other pit heads and washery/loading point were just concentrated on one pit head instead of many,
I have not heard that before.
Another weekend to be wasted checking that.
Thank you.
That was the case for many heavy industrial areas of the UK.
Everything that Crapita touches turns to cr…
Failed It systems as well , nothing like rewarding mediocrity !
Gold mate big piles of cash…everything capita touches gets turned into big piles of cash to pay there vastly wealthy board and senior managers 1.5 million each + share options and bonuses.
The sick treacherous imbeciles in government. The tiniest forces for centuries. There’s no funding to back any promises or suggestions we need a “citizen army”. How many PBI could we even give a rifle to? We await actual funding for stuff still promised. Moral can’t be great with the forces so badly served.
We need capable leadership desperately as we sleepwalk into war, continuing with the cuts & more cuts madness as though everybody in the world has been at peace since 1991.
The problem with nearly all privatising is that the effort goes into mining as much out of the public or poublic purse as possible for the least actual return delivered. It was a lie from the start, but Maggie & Reagan cast their spell on too many & we’ve run with it beyond all reason.
Babcock frequently ran short of CR2 service parts at Bovington . If just in time ordering means you are short oil, fuel filters, APU breather valves then perhaps they syphon off spares money to share holders ?
As against those well run government departments like….. ah ….. it’ll come to me ….. there must be one…. nope can’t think of any.
I really can’t see how wfh and 4 day weeks, increasing the need to pay more triple locked pensions from the defence budget etc when this is returned to the public sector will serve the forces better. Dammed if you do dammed if you don’t.
Good. Why risk your life for a government that refuses to provide you with the equipment and training needed to do the job.
And, resort to charities to support the services cast-offs and casualties.
There is a lot of support for service leavers. But you have to ask for it. The MOD isn’t going to wipe your arse for you 24/7 when you leave if you don’t speak up. They are not mind readers. The vast majority of service leavers go on to have very successful careers and lives when they leave. You get a big chunk of money to spend on training course’s. And that money is available for 10 years after you leave.
I can vouch for what you say Robert. Three examples. A friend, a cousin and my God daughter. All have done their respective time. All took retraining and all are employed. Two joined the Reserve, one army, one navy.🙂
Glad things worked out well for them. It’s like anything. If you put the hard work in. Good things generally happen. If you put lots of effort into the resettlement process during the notice period. Lots of opportunities can become available. Lots of companies these day’s will guarantee service leavers an interview. But you still have to perform when it counts.
Can’t fully agree with you there Robert. I’m a successful leaver but I know a few who have struggled. Particularly guys who joined up young and don’t know anything else. Basically institutionalised and that’s how the Forces like them, unquestioning. So there is a responsibility for those that need a bit more assistance. Don’t get me wrong, I’d have resented the crap out of it but some haven’t got a clue how to be a normal civvy.
As for the money available, it was adequate for me as I wasn’t really looking for a career but its not a huge pot (or wasn’t 10 years ago anyway). That’s not why most people join right enough but as you get towards the fag end of it, it can be quite scary for a lot of people.
I agree. For the guys that did 22+ years, it can be hard to adjust. It also depends on everyone’s different family/home situation. During my time in the RN, I still had plenty of civi mates and came home regularly. That did make leaving easier for when I left. The ones who had their own stool in the NAFFI bar and hardly ever went home were the ones who maybe found it a tad harder.
Also some of the young ones mate, I did 4 years as a crab and didn’t transition to being a civvy well, I did another 17 odd years in the navy to take me up to that magic 22. I’ve made a much better job of it this time. A mate who did 12 (13 with boys time) and left recently has struggled too. He says he doesn’t know how to deal with civvies, I can relate as I was the same when leaving the RAF. I think if you ‘buy into’ the lifestyle it does make you a bit different, probably a mental thing, looking for an ‘identity’ or whatever. For myself I think I just needed to grow up, it had to happen eventually. 🤔
I would say that in my experience there are more who manage it well but we’re all different and some take longer than others.
Totally understand, mate. It is a very unique lifestyle. Quite a selfish lifestyle in many ways. I sometimes used to think the guys who struggled when they left, maybe had snags in life before they joined up. I was lucky. I had a supportive family. My first job was with an offshore helicopter company when i left. It was 16 pilots and engineers. All blokes, and it was a really good laugh. It was a bit like being on a ships flight. Except you went home every night. So, it made the transition easier for me. 👍
I know what you mean about the guys with snags, some guys do have ‘baggage’ of some sort and don’t get over it. I think historically joining the Forces was a way to ‘belong’ for some, probably myself too although I had/have a very stable background but with hindsight a bit immature, I think a lot of guys who join up are immature or at least looking for acceptance. Society has changed and so have the Forces, I’m not sure its the place to go and find yourself in the way that going to University is now and ‘Uni’ puts a lot less demands on you.
Leaving the mob and falling into an all bloke outfit must have been a great transition, you’re not as likely to offend by saying the wrong thing. Glad its worked out for you mate.
Cheers, pal. Civvi Street has been good to me so far. Sometimes, I still miss it. When i see things on the news, or I see Typhoons deploying to Red Flag or something similar. Brings back good memories. Really enjoyed my time at RAF Cottesmore and Akrotiri. And life on-board was a proper laugh at times. I still genuinely believe, we have some outstanding people in our Armed Force’s. People of real character. And that will always give us an edge.
Aye, met some brilliant people, some I’m still in touch with and have some great memories, most of which are unrepeatable… 😜 glad I’m done though, very much saw the 22 years as a finishing line.
22 is a cracking achievement mate. Enjoy the memories. 👍🇬🇧
All this talk of a “citizen army” and “mandatory conscription” is hilarious. I don’t know a single person in that age category who wouldn’t rather go to jail than be sent to some far off war. Most younger people hate the older generation for a variety of reasons (greedy landlords, Brexit, xenophobia etc) and now they are being told to die for them? The army chief and anyone else who thinks conscription is a good idea needs to jog on.
They don’t, no-one has the slightest interest in conscription of any sort.
Quite apart from reducing capacity by selling off bases and the equipment available, so nowhere to put all these reluctant personnel etc, conscription is a terrible idea for anything other than total war.
This is simply cleaver PR contrived by the MOD to get their war cry of 3% GDP on defence heard by the masses….
The general public don’t have a bloody clue regarding the size and capability of our Armed forces, what’s more, they simply don’t care.
Mention National Service and suddenly defence is the topic of conversation!
‘The general public don’t have a bloody clue regarding the size and capability of our Armed forces, what’s more, they simply don’t care.’
Absolutely this. Anyone who doesn’t actually take an interest in Defence would assume that the government would, at the very least, ensure our Forces are completely fit for task and capable to undertake any job given to them. They hear 73000 regulars and they think that means 73000 fighting Infantry soldiers. They hear about 2 Carriers and they think 2 fully deployable, fully protected, decks full of planes Carriers.
The army chief, General Sander,s did not mention mandatory cnscription – it was the idiot No.10 spokesman who did. Sanders suggested a volunteer citizen army (militia in ‘old money’).
Could greater use be made of the Regular Reserve?
Afternoon mate, the issue today is the once considerable war reserve to equip and mobilise reservists has effectively gone, we no longer have a war reserve of small arms as we once did.
The Army and Army Reserve are equipped from the same contracts these days, it’s not the hand me downs like the TA used to have to make do with.
That’s good for active AR members, but it means there is sod all to equip anything more than about 20,000 reservists recalled to service.
If the Army had to suddenly recall 50,000 or so people on the reserve list , there wouldn’t be any equipment for them, or anywhere to billet them for that matter, it would be bloody tents on the parade ground and bring your own makshift weapons, dad’s Army style!
The necessary infrastructure (and equipment reserve) to expand the Army during general mobilisation was retained during the Cold War, that’s all now ‘long’ sold off….
Hi mate. I assumed MoD retained enough uniform, kit, and personal weapons for such extra manpower.
Of course, not the ATGW, Vehicles, APC, and so forth for them.
We had the 2nd, 4th and 5th Divisions as framework divisions for regeneration ( as well as administrative regional commands ) until the mid 2000s I recall.
As per Graham’s excellent explanation, there was a reasonably healthy reserve of personal equipment and small arms to equip a mobilised reserve in the event of war.
Graham will obviously remember this better than me, but the idea was we would probably get three months of a deteriorating relationship with the Warsaw pact as it changed posture to a war footing, to enable general mobilisation.
Stock piles of equipment were retained, 100,000 L1A1’s tens of thousands of L3A2’s SMG’s and thousands of L9 pistols were FTR’d (factory thorough Repair) to as new condition and stored ready.
Today there are no such stock piles, as said, we could probably equip 20,000 or so from in use stocks and UOR orders, over that, we haven’t got the infrastructure to support them, without requisitioning private facilities and vehicles etc.
I
Great question. What used to happen was the RRs retained boots, combats and some other such personal kit, and were supposed to report one day a year at somwehere like a TA Centre (TAC) where they got a briefing on ‘the modern army’, that kit was checked and exchanges made as required. Theoretically some trg might have happened – perhaps fire the 0.22 in the TAC’s indoor range or whatever. They got a days pay for their trouble.
When peace broke out in 1991 or sometime soon after, that all stopped.
When I left the Regs in 2009 age 53, that system had gone – so no retained uniform etc. I did get a letter from APC saying that I was now in RARO (Regular Army Reserve of Officers) and that I had a recall liability up to the age of 60 (I think) – and the Veterans badge.
It would cost peanuts to reinstate the retained uniform and the annual check, and 1 day pay.
In time of war (General War), I was never at all clear what the RRs would do – I never saw a policy document on their use.
As an ex-officer I might have gone to a static HQ in the UK. KP defence in the UK might be a suitable task for the ex-Inf Toms.
Plenty of UK-based roles for the RR across all 3 services I would have thought. The younger ones, if fit, might well act as Polyfilla together with the AR for Reg units, but would need a few hours/days refresher trg.
A big issue is ‘black bag kit’ and SA and vehicles etc for the RRs. Knowing the MoD I bet there is absolutely nothing available.
Hopefully someone at MoD is looking at this! Its a lot of manpower (tens of thousands) that isn’t being considered otherwise.
Thanks for that extensive explanation Graham. Seems an obvious area for regeneration considering Sanders comments, baring in mind John’s comments above on lack of kit to equip them.
Well, I would have, but because of my ticker I couldn’t even get into the OTC.
They need to urgently deal with retention, it is not just a body walking out the door it is a experience, knowledge and not an inconsiderable sum in training.
From what I heard from a RM yesterday shows there is still no understanding at the top.
They got a slightly better pay rise this year but the price of food and accommodation on base is now going up quite significantly, which a lot of the men rely on. To quote him “a lot of the guys live pay cheque to pay cheque”.
Things are getting worse not better and the numbers leaving is actually increasing.
So Yes Minister it is a real crisis.
“a lot of the guys live pay cheque to pay cheque”
Well thats nothing new for a Singly 😂
I get your point regarding married guys with families though.
Ambulance chasing lawyers attacking our troops for monetary gain (well into their 70s and 80s), poor wages, poor living conditions for their families and the pure hatred of the middle classes and the army hierarchy against the white working class is causing this crisis. Time to drain the swamp of the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems at the next election.
I would personally describe myself as far from woke- I take issue with a lot of the political correctness and suchlike that gets thrown around these days.
That said, the biggest factors affecting retention and recruitment (in my civvy opinion) are the perceived and actual benefits of the job (biggest one) and the recruitment process.
Accommodation is apparently awful, as is food and suchlike. That’ll put a whole bunch of people off applying, let alone completing basic. And who’s going to stick around under those conditions once they get in a relationship and have kids and suchlike? And who can blame them? On top of that, opportunities for progression and the learning of new skills are apparently not hugely dynamic, and once you get to a certain level it really levels off- at which point the private sector beckons. While there are many good traditions in the military, I don’t think they need to stubbornly stick to all of them at the expense of losing their more senior people in droves every year.
But, poor retention could be managed if only our recruitment process was working- which it isn’t. British Army applications are higher than any time in a decade, I saw recently (apparently the “wokeness” of recent recruitment campaigns hasn’t been a problem), yet getting them into the Army is proving a problem. Capita are taking so long to process applications that the applicants have found something else to do. If that’s not an act of national security self-harm, I’m not sure what is.
I know there’s a lot of discussion about society and political correctness below, and it’s probably worth a discussion at some point. But if our administration systems aren’t even keeping up with the people who want to join under the current situation, then I think we should be dealing with that first before we start pondering if we’re putting off white kids.
The UK government will have to wake up when Trump gets into Power Pulling the USA out of NATO cutting all support for Ukraine. The EU has under paid there 2% for years and the penny has suddenly dropped the worst thing for me thou is how the UK government has spent all the money on crap and still get away with it Ajax 8 years late CROWSNEST Radar the spent £269m contract to deliver the Royal Navy’s CROWSNEST now they want to retire it early wasn’t any good in the first place
not sustainable
The John Lewis Partnership and the army have circa 73000 personnel. The JLP is expected to reduce to 62000 in the next 5 years: Will the army beat them to it?
I hope not. 73,000 is a very taut figure. We could not maintain a brigade group on an enduring operation without begging for help from the Army Reserve and/or RM.
A Tory government promised that the army would not drop belw 82,000 just a few years ago.
‘Wokeness’ or ‘demographic adjustment’ or whatever are not the root cause of the military’s manning problems. They may contribute, but in themselves are a distraction. The problem is that too many are leaving. They are the ones that have already been recruited and trained, so whatever your personal betes noires are, they are pretty much irrelevant.
Just as in the 1990s, the MoD has rushed to make savings in the provision of services to its people. Catering, accommodation, medical and more have all been sacrificed to save money. As have salaries; the years of 1% pay rises through the 2010s and the recent 5.7% and 3.5% rises have all been well below inflation and have been a major factor in people leaving. Put simply, they live in dreadful accommodation, eat rubbish food, get no medical priority and are paid peanuts. Not really a recipe for retention. On top of that, the career structure has evaporated and finding meaningful work for the troops has become an unaffordable luxury.
My own son has suffered all of this, and left last year after 5 years’ service to join the Police. He doubled his pay and has a far better pension. And he gets to stay home. It took Crapita 18 months to take him from interview to turning up on Day 1, and then the Army effectively squandered his enthusiasm and motivation.
Don’t blame it all on ‘wokeness’ . If you do, you’ll miss the target and improve nothing. The answers are far simpler. Pay, accommodation, food and support.