In a recent parliamentary written question, Andrew Rosindell, Conservative MP for Romford, inquired about the effectiveness of the Atlas A400M aircraft in meeting the Royal Air Force’s military transport requirements.
The query was directed to the Secretary of State for Defence and addressed by Maria Eagle, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, on 22nd August 2024.
In her response, Minister Eagle asserted that the Atlas A400M has proven to be highly capable in its air transport role. She highlighted the aircraft’s “superior range, speed, and load capacity,” noting that the Atlas Force is well-equipped to deliver a wide variety of military equipment and vital spare parts, thereby meeting the diverse logistical needs of the RAF.
Minister Eagle also mentioned the A400M’s significant role in humanitarian missions, emphasising its contribution to the “rapid deployment of humanitarian aid relief to disaster-hit regions” and its efficiency in evacuating civilians from unstable areas.
This confidence in the A400M comes after remarks made by Baroness Goldie last year, where she provided further context regarding the aircraft’s operational challenges and improvements. Speaking to the House of Lords, Baroness Goldie acknowledged that while the RAF had taken delivery of the full fleet of 22 A400M aircraft, there were some “niche challenges and availability issues” primarily due to global supply constraints.
However, she reassured that all critical operational commitments were being met.
Baroness Goldie also highlighted improvements in the availability of the A400M fleet, noting a “25% to 30% improvement in availability compared with 18 months ago.” She mentioned that the issues related to specific airdrop and air dispatch capabilities were being actively addressed and accelerated.
Were we not purchasing more of these ? thought I read it somewhere now that the C130’s, we were to order a few more.
Yes, 6. CAS occasionally still mentions it’s in the planning.
Means zilch until they’re ordered and in the RAFs hands.
6 would be good but 36 would be better and a few SF Spartans ?
Well 6 more would take the force to 28, plus the 8 C17s.
With Voyager also used for transport we as always have capable assets in the strategic area, but the tactical side has gone.
As Airborne would often comment on this, an Atlas is a bigger, prime asset than the smaller Herc, which was used to get into and out of some very austere places indeed.
Now, we use the Atlas, which is huge for that role, or the capability is gapped.
What do we choose?
It’s why the cutting of the Hercs was the worst of the latest cuts for me.
I hear from one poster they were knackered?
If that’s so, that’s due to OVERUSE due to too few assets and no let up in commitments.
They were meant to serve into the 2030s after the 2015 SDSR and I’m sure Marshall will sell them on to other users just fine.
Just 14 aircraft, modified SF types, down from the 50 the RAF settled on post 1995, 25 newer J, 25 older.
So the wheel turns, and now the C17s and Atlas will also be shagged before their time, for the same old reasons.
I remember some 25 years ago meeting a mate in Cyprus who flew in on a C130 H (i think) he was Serco Harrier ground crew (also FI’s vet on Hermes’s Harrier’s) I always remember all the swearing when asking how his flight went !!! Description pretty much along the lines of ” They are bloody horrible worn out, ear bashing piles of junk but with way more swear words !
I have mentioned Voyager, Chinook and Merlin below but to my mind something along the lines of Spartan is clearly missing.
but the other side is if the money is only there for one type, either new Herc’s or A400 then the A400 can do far more for the cash. If the RAF choose to use for tactical uses in austere places is their call but its very capable of it. As usual its about being asked to do more with less
Yes, the buck always ultimately ends with HMG.
And yet, it they now magically find money for 6 more Atlas I’d still have had that money keeping the existing Herc capability.
I know what I say is daft, but what next, HMS QE used as FRE because it can?
The wing centre box issue on the J was always a red herring mate.
It was just another ‘ radical fleet’ cut.
Certainly, Marshalls had no issue repairing them and selling them on….
We could have easily got Marshalls to replace the centre wing boxes and outer wings, easier to just get shot though.
I would say personally, just buy 8 additional A400 and replace the lost lift.
Ideally, a few Spartan for SF, but it simply won’t happen.
I’m afraid UKSF will have to mend and make do with A400, or use US SOC assets.
Sadly. mate.
Agreed.
Perfectly fixable.
Mentioned it earlier, got no real response, building a freeking awesome Lego bridge now. Thinking about using Lego 737’s to destroy it. They are hard to put out of action but I’m on a mission now.
Clique’s are way harder to demolish though.😁
The reality is though Andy A400 cannot go on some of the airfields that that a Herc could, as a tactical airlift it’s a bit compromised, being both a tactical and strategic airlift platform means is simply to big for some airfields…I’ve also read that that it has a heavier impact on austere runways than a Herc. It does mean that there is now a bit a of a gap around small austere runway logistics hubs at range that fall between being out of range of our heavy lift rotor ( which is profoundly short range) and not being of a size that can take and turn around an A400….if we had bags of money this is where a V22 buy could fit in.
Well you say it’s the reality but the a400 has managed all the RAF new requirements since looking at replacing the Hercules, it has been tested on short austere fields from Morocco to Turkey and many more and has been declared fit to do it all.
So I’m interested in any data you have saying the opposite
Now I’m not saying it isn’t possible but everyone keeps talking about how much better the herc is but the fact remains we can’t afford both and this is far better package for the cash
I’m not saying the herc is better, it’s smaller, is less impactful on Auster runways and can be turned around in a small space…the US did some studies on the min total airfield size to run hercs out of and it’s tiny…as a whole package and for strategic airlift the A400 is profoundly better.. but in some cases smaller is better.
The reports around damage to airfields came from the sudan evacuations..in which the evacuation airfield was heavily damaged by the larger and heavier transports ( manly A400s).
My issue is not replacing the majority of the herc fleet with A400 as that’s a major uplift…it’s the question of the bit in the middle between heavy rotor and A400….and there is a bit in the middle.
Germany and France have purchased C130Js for SF while retaining Atlas, I think that says a lot.
Nobody is saying Herc is overall better.
Herc was available. Herc was here. Herc was adapted for SF use. The SF themelves were happy with it ( I believe )
The Atlas force, C17 force, and the retained Hercules with 47 Sqn SF Flight were meant to serve together.
This was nothing more than yet more stupid penny pinching by HMG.
Doesn’t really matter. The cash isn’t there and unfortunately that’s the reality
Agreed our C130Ks were primarily used by the SF community. As it could land and take off from semi-arid/ desert strips. That had been recce’d prior to the landing. Thus could be a problem for the A400M, as a lot of these sites required the Herc to do a 180, so it could take-off in the opposite direction.
I know the RAF showed that the A400M can land and take-off from a beach. This is not the same as landing in an austere location. Where you do a site survey, lay out some cylumes and talk the pilot in. The A400M is likely too big for this type of Op. so something smaller would be required.
Helicopters and even the Osprey are no good, if you’re picking up or dropping off vehicles. Which may be Landies, Menacities or quads with trailers. You don’t want to be faffing around underslinging, when you just want to get in or out quickly.
Our SF do have a pretty large budget, but I don’t think it will stretch to paying for and then supporting a small fleet of tactical transport aircraft. Ideally, it would be new C130s, as it’s a known commodity. For the SF community I would say the Spartan might be on the small side. Can it fit a pair of Landies etc?
Thanks Davey. Yes, I understood that although it was only described as a SFF, most of 47 Sqn had the role due to the tempo of ops.
I sincerely hope the experienced SFF crews have been incorporated into one of the Atlas Sqns.
I have seen Atlas land at RAF Pembrey, assume that is the beach you refer to.
What you described I believe was the bread and butter of its use in supporting SF ( and just as importantly the ** Flight ) for “hot” extractions.
Now, zilch AFAIK.
Utter cretins, sorry.
Forget V22, forget C130J, think Spartan. It’s way more affordable/logical/doable.
It would be nice, the advantage V22 would give is that it could use the amphibious vessels and carriers..which would give something more…
Completely agree from a budget point of view it’s a complete nonestart..let’s behonest there is so much more that needs to be purchased such as a decent medium rotor, proper infantry fighting vehicles etc…
I also remember when in opposition Labour rightly asking about certain “niche” tasks that the atlas could not meet re supporting SF.
No matter how good it may be it can not be in two places at once.
So, what tasks are shelved, now there are 14 less aircraft for tasking?
In a previous review, Special Forces were to be expanded and better funded (from memory) It does baffle that the primary Air Taxi has been axed.
Which review?
Back in 2015 Cameron grandstanded about 2 billion of extra funding but I don’t believe that included expansion.
Not always a good idea to expand your SF too much for risk of lowering standards.
Their battlefield heli outfit, 656 AAC, was also chopped.
Lately there are questions as to whether they need the new Chinooks.
What do they do, flap their flipping arms?
Sorry, it annoys me the idiocy of removing the enablers of some of our key assets, just as the world security situation deteriorates.
I can’t actually recall but I do remember the increased emphasis on expanding SF’s as it was recognised that they gave huge bang for buck in a changing threat environment.
If you say there have been cut’s and roll backs, I won’t be surprised one little bit.
I’ve not learned of any great cuts in that area, it was greatly expanded in the early to mid 2000s already and from what I’m aware of has not changed much.
Keeping people is their big challenge, and lowering standards to just expand isn’t a good idea.
Maybe you’re thinking of Special Operations Forces as opposed to Special Forces?
The two are not the same.
There has been greater emphasis in SOF due to Grey Zone activities.
So now we have the Army Special Operations Brigade, formed primarily by Ranger Regiment, and the Commando Force. Both are forward deployed carrying out roles that at one time SF would have been tasked with.
Don’t know, can’t really remember but it might have been something that came out after GW2, as I said it was just something I remembered about SF or SO’s. Whatever, it was just something that lodged in my mind. You’re far more up on this stuff than I’ll ever be.
Going back to my Lego now, see you tomorrow.
Ran out of 6’s, got a few gaps, waiting for an Air drop.
IKA an Amazon delivery?
As the only asset we have they really have to express confidence don’t they?
C17, Voyager and Chinook plus Merlin do also count as transport assets though.
Would like to see a smaller twin engine aircraft that sit’s between the rather noisy Chinooks and the rather louder Atlas though.
As good as the A400 is it is still to big for some tasks. Atlas is more of a strategic airlifter whilst the old Herc is more a tactical airlift platform. Well that is my opinion. Apart from that we don’t have enough of these aircraft.
they area capable and sold as being able to do everything a herc can do, austere runways, SF missions, tactical uses of course the difference is they are now too rare and expensive to do that
We,ve no enough planes of any type.
I can think of one type where we have enough, and the same as when the Cold War was at its height.
3 Rivet Joint. We had 3 Nimrod R1 before that too.
I have heard rumblings from others in/close to the industry that these planes are a real pain. Nowhere near the level of operation expected of them for a project that has its origins in 1982!
Huge delays in even getting certified for the full load and range of operations, issues getting parts.
When they sent one to scotland to ferry the late queen to london, a C-10 (or some such) was sent as a backup because the RAF just dont trust it
We have an occasional poster here who worked on their development who’d be the SME there.
Might be, but you see them in constant use by Belgium, Turkiye, Germany, France and UK nowadays. It probably has its share of “designed by committee” issues but they have been used extensively recently in operative tasks.
This sounds like Sir Humphrey “confidence”…
A very big, complex, expensive and loud way of shunting handfuls of people, small amounts of cargo, inserting SF’s etc.
You’re right about the noise. One passed overhead a couple of days ago at 32000 ft but it was so loud I thought it was much lower. So much for covert operations.
That’s nothing! We get them occasionally at 500 ft going south to north back to Brize Norton, and the noise is epic. You hear them quite a while before they arrive, and they are shifting when they pas over.
I see and hear them too, bloody noisy lot and don’t get me started on the Fairford stuff. Summer nights and open windows make me long for the time we move.
We don’t get them very often, but Odiham is only ten miles away so I am quite expert on the noise a Chinook makes.
Ahhh yes, that wokka wokka sound. I’m close by too, hear them most days.
Absolutely
I’ve been playing cricket on a field on top of a hill in Hampshire and felt a slight “wobble” in air pressure in one ear.
Looked in the direction of the effect and hey presto a Chinook was flying low down near the horizon, well over 5 miles away.
“Expresses confidence” – So it has issues then.
I think Spartans maybe the answer for our special forces ,let’s face it A400 yes capable for lift etc but it’s not an Hercules. But will the government go for this capability for our SF No . Come to think of it New Zealand have just bought some C130s. 🤔 Go UK 🙄
Cards up front. I have always thought we should have stayed clear of the 400. It’s the 130 for me. It’s a dead duck. Production will end in 2029 unless they get more orders. Apparently airbus were trying everything with middle east countries at Farnborough to get sales. Apart from Turkey they know there are no other possible customers. Spain are producing less than 10 aircraft per year. Marrieta are producing over double that. Spares are an issue for the 400. C130 Rolls Royce engines 15 LM service centres worldwide. You can buy two 130 for the cost of a 400.
Airbus CEO admitted at Farnborough it will take two more years to reach SOC3. Those were his words.
For our SF let’s go down a pure flight of fantasy. Buy four C130 J SOF variant from LM.
But then we have no money.
Government gobbledegook. Of course 14 Hercules being binned and not replaced at all and reducing the RAF’s capability in that field isn’t worth a mention.