Alyn Smith, the Shadow Scottish National Party (SNP) Spokesperson for Europe, has raised a pertinent question regarding the UK’s approach to defence cooperation with the European Union.
In a recent parliamentary written question, he asked the Secretary of State for Defence, Ben Wallace, “whether it is his policy to increase defence cooperation with the EU outside of the UK’s cooperation obligations to EU countries under NATO.”
The Secretary of State for Defence, Ben Wallace, responded affirmatively, highlighting the UK’s growing inclination towards enhanced cooperation with the EU.
In his reply, Wallace noted, “As we committed in the Integrated Review Refresh, the Ministry of Defence will develop new forms of cooperation with the EU, including on defence.”
Wallace went on to shed light on the growing defence engagement between the UK and the EU over the previous year. This has included collaborations on various fronts such as coordinating the provision of training and military equipment to Ukraine, maintaining stability in the Western Balkans, and strengthening NATO-EU cooperation.
He emphasised that these collaborations would continue, stating, “We will continue to look for areas of cooperation, where it is in our shared interests.”
While expressing a clear willingness to broaden the scope of the UK’s defence cooperation with the EU, Wallace underscored that NATO remains the foundation of UK security. He acknowledged the EU’s potential in reinforcing NATO’s activities and making significant contributions to European security.
He emphasised, “NATO remains the bedrock of our security, but we recognise that the EU can reinforce NATO activity and make an important contribution to European security, particularly when it comes to sanctions, energy security, countering disinformation and civilian-military crisis management.”
What could possibly go wrong…..
What have we left over and above our NATO commitments, I’ve had a think about it and all I can come up with at this point to contribute is a rotation of a regimental matching band, or Mascot…..
I would caution that we send one or the other, so it’s a brass band, or an Irish Wolfhound, not both…..
We would not commit forces to an EU military mission probably – this is all about cooperation such as shared defence procurement, mutual use of training areas etc.
But the EU has no army.
That’s probably why he talked about sanctions , disinformation , energy security , civilian / military crisis management but not military operations outside of NATO .
An EU army is Macron’s pipe dream. Of course it would be lead and coordinated by the French.
Most European NATO countries don’t want an EU armed forces and rightly fully appreciate that it is NATO not the EU that is the foundation for European security.
Maybe but with US support for NATO less than certain in future years only an idiot would advocate no pan European structure for collaboration on defence. Indeed we already have cooperative links to various European armed forces and have made commitments to Scandinavian Countries outside of NATO. I see no reason why UK/French UK/German and various other combinations should not be enhanced and expanded even if in the short term they are shadow moves. Best to be prepared for future events that we presently don’t have much or any control over and work with those than can exercise contingencies and agree united forces. And strategies even if they are presently tied to NATO. You don’t need to separate them out and put fences around them after all.
Eurocorps has been in place for 31 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps
Just remind me how it went the last time France coordinated a multi national Army ? I think it contained Dutch, Polish, Italian and Spanish troops, mmm let me see what was it called ? Ah La Grande Armee which makes perfect sense as Macron has Napoleon syndrome.
Given the s**t show that is US politics and our increasingly frosty relationship with Washington, I think we need to develop a framework outside of the US UK axis. That being said Brussels can be just as bad. I would rather see European NATO become a thing much like we do with the JEF, able to operate with North America NATO or independently but I don’t see a need for the EU in that.
With even Ireland looking at NATO membership now the organisation will eventually encompass everyone in Europe.
However NATO should not operate as a pure extension of US foreign policy. Quite frankly the US has abused the privilege far too much of late to continue.
The UK should focus on sovereign capability and the ability to build a spine around which other smaller nations can form to give Europe the ability to project significant forces independently.
Agree. Should the Orange Man be re-elected? Expect less US commitment to Europe and elsewhere. We need to wean ourselves off of American equipment with all its strings and conditions, F35 is the obvious example. Cooperation with Japan is excellent, the Poles buying South Korean is another example. The UK has become too enmeshed in US programmes, too dependent. Recent happenings with Biden and Kabul, his visit to NI? All show the US political establishments attitude to Britain. We are invited to American parties when it suits them.
My larger concern is Trident D5, if future president MTG or AOC tries to cut us off from F35 it blows up the entire program due to high UK content. However how long can we run the deterrent if cut off from maintenance and refurbishment of missiles.
In the 80’s nobody envisaged us using the same missile for 50+ years and the technology behind Trident D5 is much more mainstream now. Just look at M51 in France. Separating out our deterrent from the US is more important than ever.
China might decide to glass us as a warning to Washington one day, even if the UK stayed out of a Taiwan battle and it did go nuclear the UK would be top of Chinas list of targets.
I see no benefit for us in having our detterent attached to NATO and at the mercury of an increasingly erratic nation that has little regard for us as an ally.
Think the deterrent is a prime example. Since we put all our eggs into one basket can it be called a UK deterrent? Always felt we should have several layers of nuclear myself. Astute could carry some low yield, and the RAF. Storm Shadow was meant to have a low yield on some, that was quietly dropped. One thing the French have done right imo, is have several types/layers of nuclear response. Frankly the US looks more unstable by the year, as do many parts of the world tbh. Pakistan terrifies me, its breakup would leave it wide open to hostile states getting their hands on some frightening capability. So being “independent” in the true sense allows for appropriate actions against who we see for if needed.
The general population of the UK dosen’t think like many of us Jack, the suckle on the governments teat and care not a jot about defence…..
Until they need a soldier to do the dirty work mate.
How very true …
Having a few air launched missiles wouldn’t change much. We would only launch in response and any nation attacking us would be stupid to not destroy the 2 airbases that would have them. SSBN is much better.
The French approach is interesting they call it the Force of Disuassion which is pretty cool really. Their ASMP-A Missile has a range of @500 km. Their thinking is that it is a pre-strategic weapon and would be used as a retaliation for the use of Tactical weapons. It is basically a massive wake up call and last resort to deter a Strategic exchange.
If we had such a weapon it wouldn’t be confined to @ or 2 bases it would be dispersed to remote airfields just like the V Bombers were. The difference these days is because they would be on Typhoons they are far easier to conceal and from Satelite how do you tell which aircraft is carrying them.
It may sound odd but if I was Sunak or Macron I would have a very serious discussion about us acquiring these missiles. And also get the 2 Navy’s to coordinate refits, upgrades and deployment schedules.
If you have subs to play with and work out a combined schedule it is possible to have 3 subs on patrol at any one time rather than just 2.
You would have a rolling deployment sometimes it would be 2 French and 1 U.K. and sometimes the opposite.
The Political effect would be a clear signal to Putin that Europe has 8 subs (nor far of Russias numbers) and have just increased by bi-lateral cooperation their 1st Strike strength by 50%.
The CASD, Trident and US/U.K relationship is based on mutual benefits and embodied in a Mutual Defence Treaty since 1958.
Its all enshrined by treaty, so not easy to just bin and would be detrimental to the US as well as us.
We actually contribute financially to the programmes and the increased Mass of production reduces the US taxpayers bill.
And it all ties in with 5 eyes, BMEWS, NATO and AUKUS.
Part of that commits our CASD to NATO as a deterrent but allows us to use it independently if required. Which is why those that say there is a U.S. veto on our usage are completely wrong.
Saying that I actually think that the Ukraine war has focused Europe on its Defence, vulnerabilities and reliance on the US.
ITAR and similar have been used by the US, Germany, Austria and Switzerland to restrict support or the Ukraine.
The results are there for all to see, European countries cooperating on weapons development and production. Norway, Sweden, Poland, Germany, Italy and France all have collaborative arrangements with U.K and all parties benefit.
NSM, NLAW, Aster, Typhoon, Storm Shadow / SCALP, are just some examples and just think about how CR3 is being produced.
What about the EU, well I actually think it works best when it recognises that the Nation States still control their own interests, but works to harmonise common standards and internal cooperation.
So for European defence it should stick to accountability, governance and oversight but use its considerable financial clout to subsidise certain key Strategic Functions.
For instance it should mirror the NATO requirement to spend 2% of GDP on National defence as a condition of membership. That would certainly avoid certain countries who quietly freeload on the backs of others or are just plain 5th Columnists.
In addition acknowledge that the U.K. is a Nuclear Power, a permanent member of the UN, G7 and is fully behind the defence of freedom within Europe, and sit down and discuss a proper relationship.
As for what comprises a Strategic Function to be funded, I’d limit it to things like AWACS, MPA, EEZ (including Sub surface) and maybe a European ABM/ADGE system.
Meanwhile governance is commonality of ammunition, signals, fuel etc and ensuring all components are European in origin and there are no National vetos on usage within Europe or internal transfer.
As for us we could sign up to such a scheme and pay our %, after all let’s be honest about this nearly everything depends on something built elsewhere in Europe so why not get involved and benefit.
As for everything else such as Ships, Subs, Aircraft, MBT etc etc well nearly everything is built by MBDA, Thales, BAe, Airbus, Kongsberg etc, etc, etc they all work in collaborations.
As Kipling may have said if around today, we may be “The Cat that walks by myself, but I go in a common direction”
A well informed post. The EU, Europe,Nato and the individual components of each, particularly since the invasion of Ukraine, are all now strong natural allies. If we now feel it necessary to formalise the defence relationship with the EU , it will mirror the re-establishing of links elsewhere and in other fields, with the Union. Much of this results from the thawing of the Divorce aggro that left both sides as distinctly cold neighbours but now of necessity, needing to move closer together.
All of the above of course begs the question that not many want to discuss or even whisper about in quiet places-so was Brexit an unecessary,costly and hugely disruptive mistake? Don’t shoot the messenger. I merely pose the question.
Cheers from a 10 degrees C freezing Durban warming to 20’s later
Thanks for that, IMHO leaving the EU was probably one of the best things we have done for Europe since being a founding member of NATO.
If there is one thing that Europe should learn from the Ukraine war it is that the EU is not and never can be a US of Europe nor a Federalist state.
Not one EU country nor the EU has raised a single objection to Poland completely disregarding EU rules and buying most of the Equipment for a massive Land Army from Korea.
Why ? Because Poland has effectively decided to stick 2 fingers up at the EU & Germany and be prepared to be Europe’s premier Battle Force.
The Nation states are alive and well and doing what they have always done, but it is a lot easier nowadays. Cooperate with like minded nations for common benefit has been made easier under EU governance.
The EU has 5 Presidents none of whom are directly elected, it is massively too heavy, corrupt and self serving.
It has a Parliament that has absolutely no oversight or power to influence anything.
And is effectively run by the President of the EU commission and that is a massive Gravy train that isn’t in their own interest to reform. Her salary is slightly higher than POTUS !
Now that the divorce pains are passing and reality is setting in, we in the U.K. can negotiate a series of cooperative agreements. And perhaps we can then actually have a grown up discussion about why we left and other EU countries are uncomfortable with the EU direction and suggest reform.
Then just maybe we could rejoin, there will be just one main proviso. We are an island and have the right to say who does and doesn’t come here.
Bravo! As someone who campaigned for it I agree. We are part of Europe, and are Europeans. That does not mean a US of Europe the way it is heading. The EU should be nations co operating on trade, the environment, and defence, nothing more.
Rejoin? Considering UK politics is dominated by left leaning parties and their loudspeakers in the BBC, Guardian, Independent, and the rest, vs just one party the Tories, it would not surprise me. Reform is too small and dear Nigel is not the power he once was.
Who is the EU president? I never voted for him?
As Nigel once said to the “EU President” WHO Are you? WHO are you? I’ve never heard of you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY
Daniele Thank you for your kind comments I love a lot of what you post and your knowledge on all things Army is simply superb.
You do seem to have a very Red and Blue polarised view of U.K. Politics on certain issues.
I just love John Cleese he has a very interesting viewpoint on U.K Politics. He said “the reason no extreme left or right political viewpoint has ever won a GE is because we Brits are basically Old Fashioned Liberals. By that I mean we tend to be left of Centre on Social issues, but right of centre on Law/order, foreign policy and defence”.
Which to me makes a lot of sense.
Historically both main parties have tended to be centrist and both have wings whose extreme views that have proven impossible to ever win a general election stand-alone. You just need to see how Foot, Kinnock, Corbyn and Farage, Powell, Mosley got on with that one.
I am a Student of History and politics and how they interact.
Labour has never voted for unilateralism as Party Policy, just the opposite. In fact the most progressive left wing Government we ever had was Atlee’s Postwar and he kicked off the U.K. Nuclear weapons programme. He was mightily pissed off with the US McMahan act. His foreign secretary (Ernest Bevin) who came back from a meeting with the US and told him “I want a U.K. Bomb and with Bloody Big Union Jack on it !
The Carriers we now have and our Amphibious lift are mainly down to Blair and reversed the cuts by Dennis Healy.
The run down of the U.K. Defence is down to both parties in equal measure the most recent foul up was Cameron’s in 2010 and BW is doing his best to reverse that mess.
Which just proves there is good and bad on both sides and each have their own fair share of total Ar$€#0les.
As for Europe well that is where the Left/Right bias view completely falls off the rails.
I am old enough to remember when we joined the EEC and the confining referendum. The opposition was Bi Partisan and if you do a wee bit of research it will really make you scratch your head. Talk about odd bed fellows !
The opponents were the unions, left wing labour, Liberal Party and the right wing of the Tories, all United on the same page. Benn and Foot were passionately against joining (also anti NATO and pro CND).
And the pro EEC were the centre/right of Labour, one Nation Tories and the Business community all combined. And yes Mrs Thatcher was actually very active on the pro side.
More recently Corbyn never confirmed his point of view but I expect him to have been pro Brexit.
It is not a Partisan subject just look at the makeup of the Parliamentary leave and remain groups.
As for the EU I do suspect that going forwards the EU will have to reform, there is just to much internal conflict going on for it not to.
And Finland and Sweden joining NATO makes the EU becoming a military power far less likely. There is pretty well a European mini alliance going on in Scandinavia, the Baltic nations, Poland and ourselves.
FYI I was too young to vote in the 1st referendum but I would have voted to join the EEC then, but I voted to leave the EU.
Oh and all 3 of my local councillors are Reform 🤔
Anyway enough of Politics and I do have an Army question for you ! Where are we with introducing Sky Sabre, just don’t hear anything about it.
TTFN and have a nice Sunday
I certainly do mate.
I’m probably going to disappoint you, but I’m none the wiser regards the Sky Sabre system.
The whole purchase seems shrouded in secrecy.
I know the current ORBAT, but not the components of those batteries.
Assume 16 RA remains at 4 Fire Batteries, an HQ Battery, and a REME Wksp.
I’d read of 6 launchers plus 2 radar per battery, but is that accurate, not sure.
Assume 2 batteries already re equipped as one is in the FI and one in Poland.
Also a confirmation that they’re looking at buying CAMM ER, and expanding the force over the next couple of years.
I do not think John Cleese follows European politics much if he thinks that.
By the standards of the old EU, our comparable rich NW states, we are right of centre of social issues, left of centre on law and order and the economy. Middling on the rest.
Well he was on R4 for an interview and he didn’t offer any opinion on the EU he is way to smart a comedian to comment on a circus full of clowns.
Yep I think your summary of U.K vs the liberal NW EU states are is about right but that is maybe one of the reasons why we were uncomfortable and left.
I have to say I had to scratch my head for a mo with your comments re NW and your London userid. I thought you were implying that the NW postcodes had become nation states 😉
Mind you with ULEZ that could happen.
Yes.
It’s pretty daft that we don’t have a security agreement with the EU. The EU is crying out for one as well given the uncertainty of the transatlantic alliance these days. No reason why we can’t have an EU security framework running alongside NATO.
Rejoining Galileo should be high on our wish list list. I seriously suspect once labour come in next year we will see a raft of cooperation deals back on the table including the ability to send migrants back to France.
Sunak has already gone a significant distance on this in a short time as well.
I can see our EU relations getting better, I hope our U.S. ones do as well however the prospect of US politics over the next few decades fill me with dread.
Trump was not the end of a movement much rather the beginning.
I really don’t know how we all go on long term when half of America politics has made it clear it wants out of NATO and the other half hate Britain for our “historic crimes”. Maybe the Republicans are not factoring us in on that withdrawal from NATO rather looking at the EU, however us being collateral damage of such a decision won’t factor in to their thinking.
For and island in a peaceful neighbourhood with a £50 billion budget we should not be dependent on anyone for anything.
Great post.
China could indeed “glass us” if they wanted their entire nation to become a radioactive wasteland. What people seem to forget is MAD. Mutually assured destruction. It’s why we have a nuclear deterrent and is something Russia and China need to be reminded of. All Russia’s threats of nuclear Armageddon towards the UK are stupidity. They know damn well any nuclear attack against the UK will result in their own destruction.
Agreed. Why we never remind them of that…though perhaps we do behind the scenes.
Hi mate, I have been giving this some thought and if I was Rishi I’d sit down and have a very serious talk with Macron.
I’d point out that France and the U.K. have between us 8 SSBN and that we are both completely independent of each other. But if we could harmonise our refits, upgrades, refuelling and deployment schedule we could have 3 at sea at any one time rather than just 2.
You would have a rolling deployment sometimes 2 French and 1 RN and next would be the other way round.
It would be a massive psychological statement of intent that 2 countries who don’t play nicely can cooperate, not spend a penny extra and increase the combined 1st strike capacity by 50%.
And both nations still have a minimum of 1 boat at Sea.
I’d also ask about us acquiring ASMP-A missiles for the Typhoons.
Evening mate. I’ve no issues with acquiring French kit. Reintroducing a tactical nuclear option after withdrawal of WE177 is a big step though, not one I believe HMG would take with the optics of it given the many 5th columnists and naysayers we have in this country, who would give it maximum negative press.
I’d rather they spend more on conventional assets myself, though I understand the logic that it gives us more options before the ultimate.
Though if UK forces faced such a tactical weapon used against them in a NATO theatre that would require a NATO response using such weapons, even if we did not deploy them ourselves, so no need to be using CASD and escalating?
RAF Marhams 2 HAS Complexes have vaults beneath when Tornado carried WE177, so the weapon could be brought up direct to the aircraft. Other stations with Typhoon do not have those vaults AFAIK, so some infrastructure changes would also be necessary.
On the SSBN point, why not? Deep would be able to say if such an idea is feasable?
Is the French CASD declared to NATO like ours, or integrated with the US SIOP, or whatever it’s known as now, again as ours is?
Can’t cut us off from f35 as we are tier 1
If the US cut us off from Trident I’d expect the French would be pretty quick to offer M51. Eases the cost of it for them plus adds another tie between UK-Europe after all. Doubt it’d be without stipulations but that’s the same with Trident afaik.
Spot on 👍
Jack you are closing the gate after the horse bolted 80 years ago….
We are utterly dependent on Uncle Sam and have been for the best part of a century.
Since the end of the Cold War especially, we have effectively disarmed as a country.
Your dreams of a US free UK defence procurement policy is unfortunately day dreaming.
Personally, I am very glad the US taxpayer hasn’t yet got sick and tired of paying for our defence, so I really wouldn’t complain….
…and did you hear why Biden went to NI?
“https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65557068:
“On Wednesday, Mr Biden said: “I got to go back to Ireland for the, for the, the Irish Accords, to make sure they weren’t, the Brits didn’t screw around and Northern Ireland didn’t walk away from their commitments.”
Try living in the real world. Do you really believe that Poland, the Baltics, Italy, Germany, etc. are going to ditch NATO so that they can substitute it with an alliance centered around a second- tier military power rapidly descending into third tier status, incapable of projecting power onto continental Europe or the Mediterranean, nor capable of manufacturing weapons systems on a mass scale?
You can huff, puff and curse, insult the US all you want, but that doesn’t change reality.
JEF, never mentioned Poland or Germany if your going to try and be nasty the atleast read what people write.
Do you know what the JEF is?
Jimbo the shite show isn’t just in the US it’s the entire western world with our nation right at the centre of this insanity. Alas we (The public) have been sold a vision of our government and political system a vision of our intelligence community a vision of our military that is so divorced from the truth it would make those of us who are awake weep at what has been done to our once great nation.
The U.K. has zero interest in sovereign capabilities or sovereignty as I stated once yonder our globalist loving masters see sovereign capability as an anachronism.
sorry to say but it’s basically over we’re all in deep doo doo now. The West is finished and in particular the US is headed for disaster . The dollar as global reserve currency is on life support , de dollarisation amongst the nations is rapidly expanding its now not if but when . Technocracy is the future better get used to it man…… the 4th Reich sorry I mean 4th industrial revolution is upon us.
🏴🇬🇧
Co-operation is a two way street. The EU needs to allow Britain back into the Galileo Nav Sat system. If not, why should we co-operate with them, if they are not willing to co-operate with us?
Because the EU is bigger than the UK. And the big boy always bullies the little boy. That fundamental herd instinct of ‘safety in numbers’ is what motivated humanity to develop small tribes into kingdoms, then to countries, then to empires and supranational unions. The UK was daft to leave the EU without a concrete plan to join another large economic union.
Yawn
Well they’re not wrong are they
Who’s they ? and what are they not wrong about in this particular instance-please clarify.
Don’t bother replying I’ve seen you clarify your position furter down this thread – and un-surprisingly I fundamentally disagree with your premise.
This is talking about collaboration in military matters where it suits both parties’ foreign policies – not joining an EU Army to be dictated to by the EU….which we left btw.
We’re just about to join the CPTPP . The EU is not a country and certainly is in no position to bully the UK certainly not in defence . Who defends the continent from the Atlantic and Northern approaches ? Who controls the entry to the Mediterranean in the South ? Who does work on early warning and QRA? It’s not the EU !!!
Yes, the EU is larger than the UK topographically, Geographically etc. But (and I believe it is a big but or group of buts) it is Political and geopolitical disparate in many areas. With regards to their economy, that has more than enough issues to contend with and Britain Will be joining the CPTPP since leaving the EU.
I believe that the UK Armed Forces should remain under our Sovereign control within the NATO/SEATO framework and not subjugated to EU overall control but acting in partnership with and independently as and when we feel it is necessitated.
No everything is zero-sum. 🤦🏻♂️
From your attitude about relationship’s being abusive I could extrapolate that you beat and bully your wife.
Try looking up the following concepts: “cooperation”, “mutual interest”, etc.
I’ve been on this earth long enough to know self interest takes priority over mutual interest 99% of the time.
I pity your wife and friends, assuming they’ve not abandoned you due to your admitted self-interest/ selfishness.
Bullying me to prove that I’m a bully? Interesting strategy.
It’s not bullying, just applying your publicly stated philosophy of life to your personal circumstances.
‘It’s not stabbing, just applying pressure to the knife so that it pierces your heart.‘
Your publicly stated philosophy is flawed, Sean.
My philosophy is to call out nonsense when someone posts it.
You stated that in all relationships self-interest takes priority, and then throw a hissy fit when I apply your philosophy to your own personal relationships.
The term ‘cognitive dissonance’ springs to mind.
(And diddums, if you regard this as bullying, you wouldn’t have lasted 5mins growing up in my neighbourhood.)
@Eufster – Sean is the forum troll. He specialises in trolling new posters here because he’s an insignificant little arsehole. As with all trolls the best strategy is to ignore him
Thanks for the advice.
An idiot taking advice from another idiot.
Why am I not suprised.
Ah the idiot again, who contributes nothing to this forum but insults.
On the contrary it does appear that Sean has an opinion, he posts it, debates it in a two way fashion and does always challenge the known sad trolls that appear on here!
Don’t feed the blog troll! Especially one who has been charged with cowardice in the face of the enemy!
I find it comical that you would defend the writer of a comment like this:
“Ah the idiot again, who contributes nothing to this forum but insults.”
He has perceived a threat and gone on the attack with childish name calling, and is so blinded by hate that he jumps to conclusions without evidence. He’s not an individual any reasonable person can have a constructive debate with.
Not at all, that’s your perception, your call, I couldn’t give a flying fuck! Personally I’ve observed and read Sean’s contributions for a long time, much longer than yours, and he is knowledgeable, confident, able to research and pass on useful and insightful information. If that information doesn’t match your own echo chamber, then that’s your issue to square away! You will need to up your game to match his contributions, and indeed his following.
You say you don’t give a flying f**k, and yet you have replied. Your words don’t match your actions. That’s called hypocrisy, something Sean also engages in. I can see why you like him.
You’re defending him on the premise that he has made some helpful contributions in the past. If he has, then great, let’s have more of that please and less insults and gaslighting of fellow forum members. A rational person would be capable of distinguishing good behaviour from bad behaviour. Would you continue to support him after he killed innocents?! Of course you shouldn’t. You need to take some responsibility and condemn people for their bad behaviour while encouraging good behaviour. By failing to do that you’re not doing him or society any favours. As a long-term participant of this forum you should know better.
I’m interested in encouraging a healthy forum culture where anyone is welcome to contribute and debate issues without experiencing arbitrary insults and gaslighting, you should too.
No I don’t give a FF but have the manners to respond! And wow haven’t you gone off on a bit of a rant! Take a tea break, do stop presumptive comments about how I should know better, etc and take the comments, good or bad, in your stride, cheers.
No, Leigh Dawes, I will not take the bad comments in my stride. All it takes is enough people to not stand up to bullies and we end up with people like Putin in the world. After 5.8 thousand comments, you’re clearly the one that needs to take a break.
Nope! I will continue to post, comment, critique and support where needed!
The US is a far “bigger boy” than the EU, but when they developed GPS they gave all of NATO access to it.
The US has conducted economic and military coercion of smaller nations over decades, with many foreign invasions. But they gave GPS to the world so they must be alright… 😄
Yeah should have guessed you’re anti-American too. Another of Putin’s useful idiots in the West.
I think with the UK in the EU was bigger than the USA economically. Now without the UK it is slightly smaller but in the same ball park as an economic unit. China is in third place but currently racing to overtake but that may be built on sand.
Foreign minded reply……
I’m English.
It’s a very European way of looking at things = ‘foreign minded’ Mr Eufster….
Nothing wrong with being foreign minded, it’s one of a range of ways of looking at the world, it just isn’t British, that’s all 🤣🤣👍
It just isn’t British?! What are you talking about?!
Now I’m curious to know what your criteria is of a Briton? Someone who conforms to your ideology perhaps?
Good question, let’s start with the basics, you would like the UK to be be part of a large foreign organisation, with a stated aim of becoming a Federal Union, with a flag, currency, central bank, laws and army etc, etc
What about that is remotely British ??
There’s nothing wrong with being foreign minded Eufster, enjoy your croissants and keep up the Esperanto lessons….👍
You mean like the British Empire and the Commonwealth?
You shot yourself in the foot with that one.
Also, who are you to say what is and isn’t British?!
If you’re going to use the English language then you must use the correct definitions, not invent your own.
In your mind I’m foreign minded simply because you don’t agree with the way I think. That’s absurd.
Oh lighten up, I’m pulling your chain Euro, enjoy our British sunshine 👍
Extreme nationalists tend to think they have the right to declare what their nationality is and deny it to anyone who disagrees with them.
The IRA/SF tell lots of people of completely Irish ancestry they are not Irish if they do not agree with them.
Here we have a Leaver doing the same for Britain.
In India the current Hindu nutter government have described the Congress party that led the independence struggle as ‘colonial puppets’ for pushing western ideas of democratic practice and defending the Muslim minority.
I am uncertain what the common root is.
Hit the nail on the head mate. It’s just convenient for these types to dismiss an opinion they disagree with as ‘foreign’. My ancestry can be traced back centuries in Britain but this guy has the nerve to call me foreign.
Nationalists also make the mistake of believing a cooperative union with others has to come at the expense of local authority, which doesn’t have to be the case, it ultimately depends on the rules. I’m a firm believer in subsidiarity and local decision making, but also of large-scale cooperation. I think humanity has an unhealthy addiction to competition (the familiar us vs. them mentality), and falsely claim that it is competition that drives productivity. In reality it is cooperation that drives productivity because the internal relationship within every company is one of cooperation and teamwork, not competition.
Well there is pragmatics and there is morals. US, China, Russia and EU are all bullies to varying degrees. The EU is a undemocratic mafia protection racket. I believe it has a day of Reckoning to come and the UK does not want to be involved, as little as possible, when it does. Our problem is we have politicians who believe in the none sense of net zero instead of building an economy that can do what we all ready do, plus spend adequately on defence. Giving us true independent deterrence both strategic and conventional.
‘The EU is a undemocratic mafia protection racket’
This is basically where the Leaver/Remainer divide lies.
I see the EU as massively more democratic than the UK and that is why leaving is a massive loss of sovereignty for me. We have thrown away the only democratic elections this country has ever had to concentrate power even more strongly at the level where the first past the post system is most dysfunctional. We have also lost a final right of appeal to the only independent court we have ever had access to.
I think you will find support for democratic reform and a modern constitution maps almost perfectly unto opposition to Brexit.
I think it is also very reveling that support for Leave also maps strongly onto climate change denial (re your own comments about net zero) and the anti-vax campaigners.
This is speaking as someone whose workplace still has posters up warning anyone trying to remove anti vaccine stickers that many have razor blades and needles behind them, so take care and report anything you find to the Police.
The spirit and tactics of the Leave campaign continue to mobilise everything sick, ignorant and evil in our society to destroy everything good.
It is sad to see Britain becoming as polarized as the USA. Of course there are rabid pro & anti EU feelings, but do not forget the many in the middle, who had/have only lukewarm support for stay or leave. Stereotyping one side or the other is foolish.
Not everyone who doubts net zero is a denier. I support the 60% cut in 1990 levels of CO2, as there was research backing that. Net zero was grasped at by T. May to get her out of Brexit trouble. Brought in without any research.
The CPTPP now has a larger share of world trade than the EU has: the CPTPP has an expanding share of world trade whereas the EU share of world trade shrinks at a rate of 1% every 3 years. Soon EU world trade share will vanish up it’s own fundament, Helmut.
Yes, there is that. But I don’t think that was the plan back in 2016. Hopefully it won’t take long for the UK to be ratified.
Only a matter of time before the UK rejoins in some form or another. Even if it’s just the single market. Public opinion is already in favour of rejoining and that’s only going to increase as the consequences of Brexit continue to show themselves.
Yes, I recon if the next Labour government can get an offer for reversal from the EU, something like all opt outs restored but the rebate is gone then labour will put it to a snail referendum that can probably be one.
I think joining EEA is definitely on the cards probably at the same time as Ukraine.
With the proposed changes to the House of Lords and replacement with a council of the isles in charge of constitutional matters it will be very hard for the Tory’s to have a reversal referendum in future.
Despite what the press say no one in Europe is happy with Brexit and least of all the French.
Brexit has not benefited anyone.
If the French ain’t happy ….then it was worth it just for that.
😂😂🤣🤣👌
Ah the true British point of view.
“If the French don’t like it we must be doing something right”.
I must admit I have the same instinctive reaction on issues I think do Britain less harm.
Well Mr !ondon you are a man who makes lots of unsupported assumptions. For instance I am not anti vax ( have had 3 plus flue jab) Please can you tell me when VDL and the other commissioners/lawmakers were elected by the EU citizens. I must have missed that ! You call those in favour of Brexit vile. For you information I voted remain but now I see the threats of cutting off electricity ,trade wars,because they do not like a sovereign nation having different rules etc, makes me support Independence. Mr London your head is the globalists cloud one day you and many like will have come down to earth. I hope it’s a gentle landing.
😂
Nope, there won’t be another referendum, it’s pure wishful thinking by Guardian readers….
There’s no one foot in with the EU, it’s full application to join, with Euro membership, or nothing…..
It’s a tough decision, but on balance l would rather drink a pint of someone else’s urine than re-join the fourth Reich…
Nothing wrong with Brexit, it’s the nincompoops running the country and Covid that have screwed the pooch so far….
No it’s not, that’s just Remainer propaganda. The majority of the public, including former Remainers, want to move on and are sick to death of the topic.
Oh really? https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/
Funny I recall these same polling agencies predicting a Remain win too…
The same statistics that said we would vote to stay in the EU in 2016, and that Jeremy Corbyn would definitely be the UK prime minister?.
There is absolutely no appetite amongst the majority, be they voted leave or remain, to rejoin.
Time now to pull up your big boy pants, accept the result of the largest democratic vote in UK history, and move on.
Rehashing over and over something that was decided 7 years ago achieves nothing
Here here…..
Bravo.
Yes, bravo for proving what cretins you are LMAO
That accolade goes to you, considering you have posted 21 times in the past year and not once discussed anything military or contributed in a civil manner to any discussion or debate. On a UK centric defence forum.
Not once.
Just your own ideological rants when politics rears its head here, aimed at those you perceive as your enemies, supposed “right wingers” such as Sean, Airborne, Farouk, myself.
What is of even greater interest, and quite amusing, is that on many occasions on those posts you were completely ignored, which I really should be doing now.
But one good turn deserves another, so hopefully my heads up on your comment history will have thousands of others looking at it and having a good laugh too.
Do feel free to have the last word BTW, I’m big enough to leave it there while you no doubt must get another snipe in.
Yes.
Let it go Jonny, it’s so far in the rear view mirror it’s disappeared…..
Cooperation is fine but do think on defence one should never really relay to much on other nations for weapon systems .Especially if you need parts just to get your own IFV,Tank ect in service.However happy we choose Archer platform over the French platform.😉
• cue the Rabid America Bashers 🤦🏻♂️
• cue the Rabid Remoaners who can’t accept they lost and let it go 🤦🏻♂️
• cue the Rabid Brexiteers who think any kind of co-operation with the EU is a back-door effort to rejoin 🤦🏻♂️
Meanwhile the vast majority see what this is, as detailed in Wallace’s response about sanctions, and energy security – areas that are not the responsibility of NATO.
👍
I thought we worked with PESCO like Norway, Turkey, and the US do as external partners?
EU cooperation has been relatively weak given their decreased budget following the cold war and complacency ie the Ukraine
war opportunism by Russia Can we rely on the EU? given their lack of recognition for our past sacrifice lest they forget!
There is lots of areas of defence that the EU and UK can work together with that is really outside of NATO.
Such as around intelligence and areas of joint interest that are not covered by NATO or include economic development and access to resources (such as the UK and French joint interests in Africa)
Infact we should be levering the hell out of the fact we are the biggest military power in Europe and outside of our NATO commitments we can us our capabilities as a bit of a quit pro quo for wider negotiations and discussions…after all now the psycho drama of brexit is over we need to spend the next decade sorting out what the actual relationship between the EU and the only major power in Europe that’s not in the EU is going to be,
The EU’s chaotic reponse to Covid and the vaccines roll out demonstrates that the EU is incapable of acting in a flexible and agile manner.
It was unable to coordinate across 27 countries when it mattered. Decisions were simply not taken. Countries not only started to act in their own interests but implemented measures that made the situation worse for other countries. Germany for example banned the export,not just to the Rest of the World but even to the other 26 EU members, of all ventilators and even chemicals used in vaccine manufacture.
Why should the EU be able to respond to a military crisis in a more coherent,efficient way?
germans dictated where and when leopard tanks owned by other countries could be used, that was unacceptable.
If Tempest is a go , Italy and UK will have same fighter aircraft for 100 years assuming it will be operation until 2070’s.
Tornado, Harrier, Eurofighter, F-35, Tempest.
No issues from me, as we have always worked well both in and out of NATO framework operations and training with our (decent) EU allies! Take away the nonsense from all the politicians, and you have professionals working with professionals, in uniform, together for a common aim!
I think cooperation is a good idea. However the EU has a different take on defence. For example France and Germany would like to see an EU military as a tool of a federal EU state with NATO as a secondary commitment. The UK sees NATO (with the US as key), as being it primary commitment, we have to be careful not to be drawn into the EU’s political agenda at the expense of NATO.
The EU should join NATO. Bam!!! Problem solved. lol
I have read a lot of the points made by various people. My own opinion is that I am Scottish, British, a Unionist and European.
But I voted to leave the EU because I just don’t feel comfortable about it’s federalist, too heavy pontificating ways. I was in Greece when the EU bullied them and watching hard working friends not able to even accept a card payment or buy food was deeply worrying. It was just plain wrong.
If it reformed I would probably change my mind.
On the other hand I do think we need to cooperate and given the size of the European economies we really should be able to stand together without the US.
On a lighter note the Holiday season is upon us I can warmly recommend a nice book to take with you.
”1000 years of annoying the French”
Its funny but most of it is true.
Listen/ watch to Anne Widdecombe speaking to Nigel Farage. It is a UK independence (BREXIT) treasonous betrayal. These people and the UK deep state are pro eu’ers who have done their best in making Britain’s vote of independence fail. They need to be tried.
No one be in any doubt PESCO is subordination not cooperation. The wording is all about EU security and deployment. Nothing about UK security in it. The wording probably means we cannot deploy overseas until VDL , a failed defence minister, gives No 10 the green light. This is a political act of covert alignment with the EU, not essentially a military act. Some may disagree, but ask yourself why is not this so called cooperation not done through NATO ?
HM queen Elizabeth Il, hello united kingdom, HMS queen Elizabeth Il, iloveyou, f35B lightning II, Long live the King charles lll no, queen, King charles lll no,
F16 fighting falcon, Washington DC, Long live the King charles lll no, G7, Ukraine, f22 raptor