The Ministry of Defence has declined to give a commissioning date for the Royal Navy’s first Type 32 frigate, saying future capability plans are being considered as part of the forthcoming Defence Investment Plan (DIP).
In a written answer to Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell, who asked when the first Type 32 would enter service, Defence Minister Luke Pollard said the department was “continuously evaluating its capabilities, including potential enhancements to the Royal Navy’s fleet.”
He noted that under the Strategic Defence Review, the Royal Navy is moving toward a “Hybrid Navy,” combining crewed and uncrewed vessels. Pollard said this shift would be supported by modular and reconfigurable technologies, allowing for “faster, smarter procurement and scalable platforms to increase mass and effect.”
He added that future naval procurement decisions would be set out under the Defence Investment Plan, stating that “it would be inappropriate to provide further detail at this time.”
The Type 32 programme was first announced in 2020 as part of the government’s National Shipbuilding Strategy, intended to follow the ongoing Type 26 and Type 31 frigate builds. Its role and design remain under review as the Navy adapts to new operational concepts and automation technologies.
As previously reported by the UK Defence Journal in January, the Ministry of Defence confirmed that the Type 32 remains in its concept phase, with no defined timetable for design or procurement.
Since then, there has been little sign of progress on the project while decisions await the outcome of the wider Defence Investment Plan review.
It’s fully my belief that this class was spouted by mistake, and will therefore not come to fruition, however that being said, I’d be happy if it’s just a second batch of 31s with extra drone command capabilities
I’d agree with you on that I’ve no doubt that a type 32 frigate will not become a genuine project until the final T23 is retired.
I believe that it will be a Type 31 batch 2 with various upgrades, but they will call it Type 32 instead of T31 B2 simply to avoid headlines about how the navy is cancelling a planned class of ships.
This has looked like a fantasy project ever since Boris announced it. We have no clear idea what the mission might be anyway. If we want to icrease the number of frigates without breaking the bank, how about a Batch 2 Type 31 with a proper ASW capability, or is that far too logical to ever happen?
Logic is not a word understood in gooberment or political circles.
There is a need for a platform that can deploy drones for ASW and MCM missions in a contested environment. That’s what T32 was outlined for.
On the positive sight T32 is still being considered and is not totally dead.
No it wasn’t, the “t32” is and always has been a floating name with no actual real purpose or money ever spent on it. Almost certainly a slip of the tongue by good old Boris which he never admitted to and the RN and MoD paid lip service to in the hopes of using it as some sort of stepping stone or lever to a reality hence the fairly frequent statements about what it might be ….
There is no money!
Chagos, rising wages and inflation means there already is an extra £2bn hole that needs filling before we even begin to look at things like T32. There isn’t even an order for RCH155 despite the army only having 14 interim Archer howitzers.
Defence is utterly broken. A $70bn budget should get us more than a fleet of escorts.
They won’t place an order yet for RCH-155 until they are sure of the jobs it’s going to create or maintain in the U.K., as they’ll want them produced here.
So that means Rheinmetall getting the new gun barrel factory built – which will supply both Chally 3 and then RCH-155.
They’ll also want to see how well U.K. Boxer manufacturing is going, as RCH-155 uses the same chassis. While the first 100 were mainly built in Germany the remaining 500+ will be built here. Plus the army is interested in at least 3 more variants, such as self-propelled mortar, bridging, recovery.
That’s all really sensible to build-up and maintain industrial capacity in peacetime, but it doesn’t fit with the urgency of NATO possible being at war within the next few years…
That’s all reasoned well enough. Is there a published date for the factory to be built if we’re hanging on that?
Drove past the BAe one yesterday on the way down the M1, it’s just next to the Tinsley viaduct.
👍
Well the gun barrel factory was only announced earlier this year, April or May.
I believe Boxers are already in production at the other factories.
The UK has a new 155mm gun barrel factory in Sheffield as reported on here and elsewhere.
It opened back in June this year by BAE Systems and employs 200 people in Sheffield. Initially it will produce M777 barrels but will eventually support other systems. My guess is that it will be the factory that supports RCH-155…
Cheers CR
Original story reported on UKDJ 12 June, 2025.
It’s not just barrels it’s a lot of the Titanium parts as well, quite why they need a second os beyond me 🤷🏼♂️
Yeah I know about that one, cost BAE £25m and it will be used to manufacture barrels for the M777 howitzer.
Rheinmetall are going to build their own new gun barrel factory in Telford for Challenger 3 and the RCH-155.
As reported on here and elsewhere.
Honestly, I’m still convinced this was a slip of the tongue that they just never wanted to admit to, and continuous governments have not wanted to be the ones who look like they are cancelling a project.
I agree. And it’s a myth that’s useful for the MOD to keep running because they can look good hanging all sorts of fantasy projects off it that they can ‘cancel’ when it eventually suits them. “Hey look, the government have saved billions cancelling Boris’ silly project.”
Spot on, I’m amazed at how many people believe otherwise.
Probably because the Prime Minister annouced it as part of a growing navy and there was much speculation as to what role it would play.
Oh come on now … Go listen to his rambling speech again, and then find any serious references to it again (from him or anyone senior in the government at the time).
I’m only saying what he said.
What my thoughts were at the time and since is pretty much that it must have been a Borris misspeak and all mention on sites like this and the masses of comments just flowed from that.
Would I love to see 5 new multi purpose vessels to add to the 19 we may well have one day ? Feck me yes and as this article says, It’s not officially “dead in the water” yet.
“misspeak” I didn’t know that you indulged in such political ly correct words!!
It was an incompetent cock up which he knew that he had made (shortly afterwards when someone explained the difference between busses, bikes and ships to him) and was too arrogant to correct it later.
I see your mindset is rather fixed, non flexible and stuck in a steady vein of political comparitive combativeness.
Are you sure it isn’t you that is stuck?
From where I see it you most certainly are.
Nice try deflecting though .
If you say so. 🙄
To repeat more knowledgeable contributors, 1x T26, 4x T31 ( with either ASW or MCM fitout?) additional orders pretty please?
Quite agree with you, the Polish type 31 frigates have hull and towed sonar.
Yes, there is probably merit in considering a quietened version of T31 with the CAPTAS 2 sonar to fulfill the T32 role.
Sonar 2087 (CAPTAS 4) is world class but expensive, having 8 of those supported by 5 T32 operating CAPTAS 2 would go along way to taking pressure off the escort force. The 5 T31’s could then handle non ASW tasking in the Mediterranean, south Atlantic and Gulf.
Can forget about it, we’re broke
Oh do be quiet. We are far from “broke”. The Government is spaffing money up the wall on all sorts of useless stuff, like carbon capture machines that will probably generate more carbon than they capture and paying Mauritius to take an island that they’ve been desperate to get their hands on for years
So what happened to the 5% deal that was promised just a few months ago?… There’s been a major European land war going on for almost 4 years and the UK is doing essentially nothing…
As I see it the gap we have is not in anti submarine systems but in air defence systems. There’s very little evidence that Russia can effectively significantly expand it’s submarine fleet. But it is showing it can fire more long range missiles and drones.
The anti submarine fleet will in any case be strengthened significantly by the use of T23-T26 led triplets with two unmanned vessels to each frigate.
I would see T32 if we get them as being low crewed air defence vessels say six to work as a pair with T45 initially so as to provide significantly more missiles than could be carried by adapting the T45s
How will two cheap, diesel-powered, quickly-built ships help an expensive almost silent pupose-built frigate catch a submarine? Do you see them functioning in the find, track, target or destroy capability? Where will the significant strengthening lie?
Yes but the Polish type 31 is the first line frigate for the Polish Navy, hence the bells and whistles
The only line frigate for them in fact!
when venturer finally joins the fleet I want to know how much it actually cost from laying down to going operational £250mimllion ? methinks maybe double that figure. and will no doubt have an effect on class order sizes for many years or decades to come. export deals won’t be helped when a customer asks how much are they? imagine that when you go to look at it new car not when you’ve no idea what it will cost. T31 £250 muulimllion? no, double that and far longer to actually get. and will greatly increase the fitting out period
Totally agree!
I thought Boris simply got his numbers mixed up and was too embarrassed to admit his mistake, giving rise to a fantasy frigate class…..
a dedicated ASW corvette should be easier to design, price, and produce in large numbers very quickly would be my way to go, with small crew sizes and as much unmanned systems as possible.
There’s something to be said for this approach. It could work, especially for continental shelves and choke points, but I fear it would be expensive enough to be a major project, so subject to all the MOD/government processes that instantly double the costs. On top of which, the “I hate corvettes” internal politics within the service would make it impossible to achieve. Worse still, there’s the new 1SL’s emphasis on full autonomy and “hybrid” which will suck up the morsels of any extra money that might come the way of the surface fleet.
I wonder if they’ll aim for fully unmanned and end up with something like a lean-crewed corvette as a compromise. Perhaps if they don’t call it a corvette….
/googles what is word salad -and please give an example > “shift would be supported by modular and reconfigurable technologies, allowing for “faster, smarter procurement and scalable platforms to increase mass and effect”
maybe we should send some of these grand orators to Ukraine with a speaker phone because they will quite possibly put the Russian troops to sleep or kill them with boredom
It was one hell of a lot of buzzwords.. I may need to make a new bingo card
So It’s taken 5 years so far, just to say/confirm nothing is happening.
Anyone know how much money has been spent getting us this far ?
Nothing will ever change, doesn’t matter what government is in power, no party will truely take defense seruously.
Feels like the West is hoping Ukraine does enough damage to ruzzia they wont be able to fight for years.
I fear you are right, if this actually war ends the Govt will be shi..ting itself hoping all those big words don’t make them the next target with only paper tigers as a shield. It’s like being at the back bigging it up, hoping beyond hope the kids in front are tough enough to stop the big bully getting through to you.
“Fight, fight fight fight” oh shit, “run away”.
To be honest although the Russian government likes to spit feathers at the UK..we are not going to be the big target for anything big.. Putin is not so much a fool as to get into a kinetic war with another nuclear power unless he’s against a wall. he’s going to pick on someone outside of NATO ( there are a couple of targets still left he is after ) and start working up a political war against the Baltic states to see if he can mobilise one of the ethic Russian populations to destabilise one of the three. One of the advantages about a strategic nuclear deterrent is even if it’s know it’s a deterrent only against a profoundly existential attack..it complicates the risk benefit balance of war.
Hi there Other Jon.
Putin didn’t want to get into a kinetic war with Ukraine. Back in 2014 he tried to bribe Ukraine into the Russian fold. When that failed he tried a quick slice in Crimea, and fermented internal warfare in the Donbas and Budjak, only the former succeeding. The were still no expectations of state-on-state kinetic war. Even the attack in 2022 was expected to lead to a fast decapitation and regime change. We all know the rest.
You are right. Putin wouldn’t want to get into a hot war with the UK. However, you don’t always get what you want.
The excuse will be we won’t need as many conventional warships as we now have a hybrid navy.
I can see it coming.
Question.
Can these mass of uncrewed or optimally crewed assets deploy thousands.of miles away and operate in the same sea states of a Frigate or Destroyer?
As if they’re only for the Atlantic Bastion we have in effect withdrawn to a defensive stance, leaving the sea lanes of the world to others or our small fleet which is needed to be mothers to the uncrewed stuff.
Ha, Toy Boats capsize rather easily on a bloody boating lake, hell I even have trouble playing Pirates of the Caribbean in the bath.
We really don’t need that mental image 🫣
Ohhh god no..my eyes my eyes. 😵💫😵💫🤪
a dedicated ASW corvette should be easier to design, price, and produce in large numbers very quickly would be my way to go, with small crew sizes and as much unmanned systems as possible.
way too big for my tub.
Maybe the Babcock & Saab corvette in development for Sweden? Or, is that too small? Could go with a we buy yours if you buy our AH140/T31. Babcock already have that MRNP evolved T31 which looks very useful.
The issue is by the time you’ve built a corvette that can do the job, you’ve baisicaly paid Frigate prices for a ship that’s too small to go very far, and hard to upgrade. Might as well just order more t31’s if the budget stretches.
I keep getting that image of the Iranians towing those US sail drones (which I now hear the US are planning to arm) back to port while real ships try to stop them. Hardly encouraging in face of this drone navy we are planning or even barely manned versions, which would be even more humiliating if they were captured. Remember the Marines getting taken by Iran years back which we were totally unable to stop so what confidence can we have in these circumstances even if there is a frigate near by and not wanting to provoke a war?
Just had another even more humiliating thought, I can see a future Daily Mail Headline. “1000 illegal immigrants arrive off Dorset Coast on RN drone ship that was ‘mislaid’ on Tuesday”. Then the headline 6 months later “No one found accountable for drone ship loss that brought known ISIS terrorists to Britain now living it up in ‘Princely’ fashion in Royal Lodge”.
Any others, or do we need a Committee?
You’d think that “surely” those in the MoD are grown ups who consider all eventualities.
My worry always remains that HMG conclude that, yes, that threat exists, but we’ll do it anyway as its cheaper so we’ll take the risk.
It’s all a balance juggled against the threat and what they are prepared to spend.
A bit like juggling balls in the bath ?
Nooooooooooo
I can juggle, actually. But never tried in the bath!
It helps if you have 3 balls.
Which I can do.
One handed, I can juggle two. Keeping 2 balls up is hard.
I’m pretty sure the underwater drones won’t care about the sea state.
As for surface drones vs frigates , Sonar 2087 can only operate in sea state 6 even if the frigate can handle more.
Most of the large USV’s seem to be tailored to operate in a similar sea state.
I do think having a single £1 billion frigate with 200 crew onboard towing a £100 million towed array is not necessarily the best way to defence an entire ocean.
In the past we relied on SOSUS sensors and aircraft more to operate as a force multiplier.
Atlantic bastion is no different it’s just that the SOSUS sensors are moving on drones now.
I think it’s far better having one or two high end frigates in the North Atlantic at the head of dozens of sensors and drones rather than having half a dozen lower end frigates trying to do the same job.
CAPTAS 4 (2087) has a 150km range vs CAPTAS 2 that has a 60km range.
CAPTAS 4 can cover an area of 8 times the size of CAPTAS 2
That’s defence economics in the works.
As good s CAPTAS 4 is it can still cover an area of less than 20,000 SqKM which is a drop in the ocean.
Every small drones with an attached small towed array can add a moving detection bubble of 1000 SqKM to the detection picture.
Agree with subsurface. And all that sounds excellent for GIUK defensive posture.
My post asked about elsewhere.
South Atlantic. APT (S) gone.
North Atlantic. APT(N) gone.
Indies. Deployed River.
Med. Occasional passing through.
Gulf. Lancaster, about to be withdrawn.
The RN has vanished from the world’s oceans on an enduring basis just as China spreads its wings, Russia is rising, and the west is in retreat.
I want to see this new stuff for Bastion AND assets for elsewhere.
And I can see HMG cutting further on this tech excuse, just as they did in 1995 and 2010.
I agree, hopefully we can see the T31 carrying out APT (s) however I think the B2 rivers being forward deployed has generally improved a number of roles especially in the Caribbean, west Africa, Mediterranean and pacific where event the large frigate fleet of the 90’s toiled to have regular cover.
Muck fire issue is what we called a frigate in the 70’s is now an offshore patrol vesell and what we call a frigate today would have been a cruiser in the past.
Personally I think we would be better to designate the T26 as a destroyer and the T83 as a cruiser
T26 if armed with CAMM MR probably as the air defence capability to be consider a general heavy surface combatant like and Arleigh Burke but with better ASW capabilities.
Hardly. Limited space for CAMm MR and would need a better radar
The beauty of CAMM-MR is that it wouldn’t be limited by the small amount of available cells, because of its dual-packing capability. You could add 16 and still have room for 16 other missiles, alongside the existing CAMM cells.
And maybe with an upgraded Artisan to go with it. They also have the option 2×4 NSM on the hangar roof.
Hi M8. Now that Norway has ordered 5 T26 ASW Frigates the actual requirement for extra ASW Frigates has decreased and any idea of bodging an ASW version of the T31 is just plain silly.
I am willing to bet that the Admiralty pre XMAS DIP list looks something like this.
1. Secure the RN Admirals list so we have 2 per rowing boat and 1 per silly sounding project.
2. Maintain the orders for Frigates that we have as industry can’t produce more now we have 5 extra T26 to build. Meanwhile start to plan for an expansion of the numbers of T45 replacements post T26 build (use UK GBAD as a lever).
3. Sell HMS Victory for firewood if it gets us 10/12 SSN(A) orders in the DIP, simple reason is that with drones and a VLS for land attack missiles they are the best ASW asset we have and scare the Shite out of Russia. Politically it also avoids us having less SSNs than RAN and will really make the US very happy as it indirectly helps them with China and their lack of boats. It also gives us one very big stitch to wave to encourage EU to stop being Dick heads and show us some respect.
4. Acquire sufficient F35B, Helicopters and Drones for the carriers.
5. 3 FSS to support them.
6. Re introduce the Rum ration as the barrels are recyclable and Empty beer cans give away our ships positions.
7. MRSS, MROS and MCMV Mother ships would be on the nice to have list but not essential as no Admiral wants to have one as a Flagship.
Personally I’d add one very important item as No 4 on the list, a 5th Dreadnought SSBN (yep I know I’m biased) nothing would piss Putin off more than us going large on SLBMs oh and it’s fun watching France squirm !
Maybe we could call the 5th Dreadnaught Victory after torching the original to pay for her 😀
I wouldn’t seriously ditch Victory it’s just a way of saying that 10/12 SSNs are the RNs big want. So Dreadnought, Warspite, Valiant, KGVI are 3 Battleships and a Great King but I’d name a 5th as Rodney because she really did the business as a Battleship. I guess I may be biased and calling A B Cunningham just wouldn’t work which is a shame as he was an outstanding Admiral.
Lol. HMS Victory firewood….
I will be gob smacked if an increase in SSN numbers to 10/12 isn’t in the DIP ! The Army has been gutted and it would take decades to correct its deficiencies and to be quite honest between Poland, Germany and the rest of the continental Army’s there is enough strength to deal with Russia. The RAF has been shrunk to a point where it lacks the mass to contribute much when compared to Germany, France, Italy & Sweden. It just so happens that the area we can make a difference to is by reinforcing Norway, Sweden and the Baltic, which ties in very nicely with defending the GIUK and interdicting the Russian Bastion.
The Navy on the other hand is well on the way to recovery and also has CASD, it’s our main physical contribution to European defence and protecting it is our number one priority. For that you need ASW assets and nothing yet can touch a Nuclear Hunter Killer for both defensive and offensive capability.
Luckily for us AUKUS and the resulting investment has been a God Given boost to industry and the all important supply chain. It enables series production to take place at an optimum tempo and that reduces the cost per boat. Quite simply we would be stark staring bonkers to not capitalise on that and boost our numbers.
I won’t be, I’m fully expecting the DIP to be a damp squid like the SDR.
Lots of re announcements, a vow for 12 SSN in the future which for me is no firmer than Des Browne vowing 8 T45 and 8 Astutes.
I also expect a whole wave of base closures on the excuse that to get all this fancy shopping list we must cut X.
Bullshit, they’ve been cutting bases for decades and that shell game doesn’t fool me any longer.
I’ll see you at the DIP. 👍
This ‘navy first’ emphasis is wrong both strategically and practically.
In any peer conflict with Russia or local actions elsewhere, air power – fast jets missiles, drones – will be the paramount need, backed – as always – by a sufficient number of boots on the ground. Poland, Germany and the low countries have.nothing like the airpower or land forces needed to meet a serious Russian or CRINKS threat to the north German Plain. Nor does NATO Europe have the air or land forward or reserve forces to withstand a push into the Baltic republics or Scandinavia. The idea that we will just leave air and land to our Euro partners so that we can build a more powerful navy is strategically flawed. We do not face a serious naval hreat in Eastlant that ENATO cannot handle. Conversely, we would face a very serious air and land threat that we are currently very undermanned and ill-equipped to meet.
That is why the NATO-first strategy is the SDSR. In that strategy, the task of the RN is clearly to lead the ASW.task in Eastlant.
The SDSR leaves the door ajar to out-of-area tri-service operations. This is the big thing the RN wants for a number of reasons, including prestige. The reality is the RN may get to the planned 19 escorts by 2035; with one-third at sea at any one time, it means just six operational..That is not enough to form the Carrier Strike Group and provide a couple of.patrol frigates in the Gulf and elsewhere – and doing so would leave nothing for the primary strategic role in Eastlant..We need to be honest and accept that we simply do not have – and cannot afford to get – anywhere like the number of warships to play more than a token role out-of-area. Some may think that the carriers were already a bridge too far for our defence budget.
The idea that the RN must simply be provided with more ships is a non-starter. There are many other higher defence priorities in the air and on land if we are to begin to meet our NATO-First commitments.
Oh please don’t, we don’t have enough Heritage ships as it is.
Besides, I have fond memories of visits with my kids.
You mean their fare some Quarterwits out there 🤣
Hell yes, I sowed my seeds often and far !
I honestly think the 5th SSBN is really important.. I’m not sure anyone believes the US would go nuclear over anything that happened in Europe so we need a true MAD deterrent and 2 boats with 160 warheads is MAD enough to remove the Russian state from the map.. I think that’s the bottom line Putin would respect most.
Unfortunately the window of opportunity to order a 5th is very rapidly shrinking, if it isn’t announced in the DIP PDQ then it’s probably gone. That great big Industrial Leviathan better known as the long lead items for SSN(A) is busily moving through the supply chain and gobbling up all the resources, its appetite is massive and voracious !
The stupid thing is that due to the SSN(A) investment from U.K and Australia now starting to yield positive results the build costs for a 5th boat could be relatively low !
Only problem I would foresee is the US ability or willingness to increase our allocation of D5’s and AWRE to build thing’s that go bang !
Maybe the Captas’ be recycled from the ASW T23s as they go out of service?
I wonder whether the ideal future manned ASW ship will be more like a small LPD with a well deck for several uncrewed vessels with towed arrays, a hanger and flight deck for multiple ASW helicopters/drones and enough self-defence to protect itself and its immediate vicinity. An ASW variant of the MRSS or maybe just combine the two into a single class.
In any case, with T26, Norwegian T26, T85, T31 and MRSS there is no spare capacity for a fair while and it makes no sense to commit to a design so far out from being able to build it. Better to focus on getting the current order book of ships into service, maximise their capabilities and availability and expand numbers with uncrewed vessels.
The thing is the minimally crewed bit is fine to take over all the mine warfare and patrol stuff.. remembering that the RN always had about 30 oceangoing presence and min warfare vessels.
And it’s great if the add mass to the high end warfighting.. but these should be seen as replacing ocean going mine warfare and patrol ships not frigates and destroyers.. the RN still needs 20 frigates and 10-12 destroyers.. that’s not changed.
Here we go again…
Amazing, no actiion this day…AGAIN. The so called DIP is just going to be a press release and nothing else.
There is a possibility that 2 of the T26 frigates under construction might go to Norway’s navy and no replacements ordered.
Navy lookout site discusses this.
Ah but that’s because we can then call on Norways.
It’s all about Ship Building, Aircraft Building and Manufacturing to sell not to buy any ourselves.
That’s how it’s even being presented, putting money into defence to rebuild British Industry, after all we can’t present it as providing the means to actually defend ourselves, because that’s a provocation apparently. Reminds me of the policy of putting money into British Leyland just to keep jobs going over any attempt to modernise the business or actually build worthwhile cars people wanted to buy.
Navy Lookout’s source is ‘rumours’.
It would not surprise me if it happened, the first Norway Frigate has to be delivered by 2030.
Yes, a ship might be pulled from the RN line. However, planning to not replace that ship would be contrary to everything the government has been saying for the past year.
All it would result in is a cut to British manufacturing. The shipyards would be receiving fewer orders and therefore, the jobs about which Labour care would disappear. I’ve seen it suggested that we might produce all 13 ships, but sell more than just five to Norway. This is also ridiculous, primarily because Norway can’t afford to operate a six-frigate force, let alone a force of eight frigates. We know the 13-ship joint force is being planned, so by all accounts, the RN will receive all eight ships.
What’ll likely happen is that one of the British ships will be given to Norway, and a replacement ordered on top of the current batch.
Navy Lookout are just posting unfounded rumours and fearmongering due to the lack of actual news to post about on their website. They do similar things whenever there’s a downturn in the news cycle – post something controversial (rage-bait, perhaps) and watch the engagement grow.
There’s obviously a chance of it happening. There’s very little evidence to suggest it will happen, though.
All sounds reasonable, I hope you’re right.
I did read someone suggesting that with the new hall the Norwegians ships could be built alongside ours, negating the need to give RN slots alway. But if they neee theirs early then there you go.
Funnily enough, with our Frigate force fallen from 20 to 7 since 2004, the RN needed its ships yesterday.
Funny how Norway, and the MIC, again take precedence over British military numbers.
Hi M8, Leh is bang on the button, NL do this every time there is a Spending review or Equipment plan in the offing it’s like clockwork. Same thing happens in the other services except they know the RN are better at it than they are so stand by for rumours of the Red Arrows or Guards regs being axed.
If the Army are desperate they just wheel out Lord Dannat in the Sunday Times, same old, same old !
There’s a ”possibility” I’ll win the EuroMillions lottery too, or that the guy who works down the chip shop really is Elvis…
You can mock, but where is the extra manufacturing capacity for these foreign orders going to come from?
Are these countries going to wait until all of the RNs orders are complete before work starts on their ships ? I doubt it.
There’s exactly one foreign customer for British-built Type 26 frigates, and that’s Norway. BAE are expanding their workforce and their production line, primarily for the reasons you mention. You should also remember that the government is purposefully slowing down the build rates for these ships, to preserve the workforce. Now new orders are coming in, the rate of production on each hull can be increased whilst keeping the line open long term.
They’ll be able to cope.
Same thing can be said here in Derby, Sheffield and Barrow for the SSN’s, everything is speeding up nicely for SSN(A). Derby hasn’t had so many reactors in the build process or supply chain since 70’s.
Absolutely! The long lead time items are already under construction for the first boat, and full-scale construction is due to start in the late 2020s, so still within the remit of the current government.
I have a feeling BAE and co. have received assurances from the government that the number of boats ordered will be large. They’re a business, and they don’t invest money without being sure they’ll see a return. Not after the many debacles of the early 2000s.
Glad someone remembers the late 90’s early 2000’s it was worse than a debacle it was plain Treachery carried out by Political Leadership who had zero interest or understanding of the concept of Strategically important industry. Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron were just the same and no one did anything about it until Ben Wallace scooped up SFM, Nationalised it and invested the capitol it needed to regenerate and modernise.
I was genuinely tickled pink when he made his last speech as Def Sec and said he was a Tory but proud of Nationalising SFM. I do however always wonder if it may have been US pressure that spurred him into action, it’s surprising who SFM supply. 🤔
And when they found out that boats needed replacements and the entire supply chain was on its knees, they had gone and it has cost Billions of £’s (and AUD’s) to rectify those insane decisions.
They did exactly the same with the T45 on the Clyde they reduced the numbers from 12 to 10 to 8 and then 6 the result of that one is now just about rectified but again it’s cost Billions.
Yes I can mock because you’re maths are 2 + 2 = 137
I’ve no doubt that some of the later T26s will be delayed to allow Norway to get one or two T26s into service. No problem there, as their ships will be doing the same job as ours, hunting Russian subs.
What I do take issue with is people then flying to the unsubstantiated conclusion that the RN won’t get all eight that have been ordered.
So much for ‘bringing facts’…
Bof – the extra capacity was built into the Batch 2 Contract,BAE Systems mush have had some assurances from the MOD, and hints of a successful export order for it to invest in the new Janet Harvey Hall,which im pretty sure would have come out of theirown pockets.Other measures have been taken to make the builds more efficient,the only obvious Bottleneck is the Fitting out.
Just crack on and churn out a steady supply of T31s and river B3s.
Cheap and relatively simple to build and operate these are useful in the way they will free up high end platforms and can act as a go between unmanned systems. Once they are no longer required sell them on and keep production open for the replacements.
Forget River B3s, continuous build of T31s with regular capability insertions.
According to this site, ‘Royal Navy assessing options to replace patrol vessels’, well, the title gives it away.
Doesn’t have to be like for like replacement… unless you believe the RN should still have 3 decker man o’ wars, the RAF Sopwith Canels, etc, etc.
Not to mention, we enjoy free expression in the UK. So even if the RN decides to order River B3, it doesn’t mean I have to agree.
You must be new here, as actually most on here disagree with everything the RN, RAF, Army, decide to buy 🤣
Are you sure that was meant for me? I have been here nearly 10 years. I font it suggests a batch 3 but a new option platform.
So just like building £300m+ OPVs? Just not on!
T31 only ever existed in Boris Johnson’s imagination. Of much greater importance is MRSS, T83,. OPV replacements and perhaps a few more T31.
*Should be T32 at the start.
I think you did a ‘Boris’ there 🤣
In a way, yes; but Boris was likely giving snap response to a real RN ambition for an increase in the fleet. He just added one to Type 31 to catch the attention. Threats and technology have moved on. The increase in the fleet is still needed but we can no longer assume that 5 more frigates is what we need. I would go for some batch 3 ‘Rivers’: 3-4000 tons, 95m, flight deck, mission bay, crane, slipway, 57mm, 24 knots, global endurance, capable of launching and recovering UUV drones. Something like the Icelandic Thor OPVs or the concept sketches produced for the Black Swan sloop or war discussion paper.
Paul, T32 was pretty much a Platform for Autonomous Vehicles, You’re replacing it with another T32 ?
It’s a case of ‘what’s in a name’. As you say, the original requirement was ‘for a platform that can deploy drones for ASW and MCM missions in a contested environment.’ Taken at face value that would point to a variant of T31;bigger mission bay and/or slipway say. But if you relax the ‘contested’ bit, prioritise Atlantic Bastion, smaller crew, lower cost for more platforms to supplement scarce expensive T26, and have seconday opv role you get something that looks more like a North Sea supply vessel than a pointy frigate. The next class needing replacing are the R1s. You can re-use the T32 designation or call them batch 3 Rivers depending on your preference. Also, I think govt and Babcock would prefer Rosyth building T31 exports and these new, smaller ships being built perhaps by Ferguson?
A lot of conjecture and I am probably wrong, the simple solution is make T31s do the job. We’ll see I guess.
If you don’t know the score by now, you never will.
This government will never publicly scrap planned orders, no no no that would look bad. Far better to kick the can down the road.
We’ll cut 2 now, and add them at the end of the order, under another governments watch.
How many of the 12 SSN they grandstanded does anyone seriously believe we will get?
Honest answer? I wouldn’t be surprised if we get all twelve. As much as we talk about it being a future government’s problem, construction on LLTI is underway and full-scale construction is expected to begin in the late 2020s. BAE, Barrow, Thales and GD-UK are gearing up for a massive production drive, and wouldn’t be putting money on the table without major assurances from government. We’re in a different time to the early 2000s, with a period of rising tensions ahead.
I think we’re almost certain to see an increased fleet, though 10 is perhaps more likely than the full 12. That said, a fleet of 10 attack boats would be a big improvement on its own. 10 subs would allow for 2 in the North Atlantic, 1 with the carrier and 1 in the Indo-Pacific. If the carrier isn’t operating, the remaining sub could be deployed to the Med or Gulf as a cruise missile boat.
I’d take 10 now.
Absolutely. Any increase would be welcome.
Where we differ is that i see all that investment simply to build another 7 boats for the RN and reactors for Australia.
HMG have made so many vows and done the opposite that for me they’re the little boy who cried wolf, I simply don’t believe a word they say any more. Especially this lot.
I am almost positive that the 12 ssns included all the ships for Australia as well…
“Scalable platforms to increase mass”. So has the Black Swan sloop of war thinking of 2012 morphed into Type 92 drone or Kongsberg Vanguard?
When they announced the MRSS changed from support to strike ship, I had a feeling Type 32 would be scrapped. At this rate I’m worried we might not even end up with 8 Type 26’s.
For me, combine T32 with MRSS. 15k tonne hull, well dock at the rear and modest lane space for landing forces, a large mid ship mission bay for launching drones, helicopter and drone hanger, seaceptor, 2 x 40mm guns self defence, 1 x 5″ gun for shore bombardment, land attack missile silo for say Spear 3. Provide rear space under the flight deck for containerised towed array but ffbnw. This would be able to operate in many different roles and cover many areas of operation. build the full 6, or 8 if we can afford
So what’s the next delaying ‘Vommittee’ after the DIP?
(I think my spell check for once got it right there so decided not to change it, my iPad has clearly gone all Ai on me and more scary has unexpectedly reached AGI, probably been studying my cat).
Someone’s alarm on their phone went off in the MOD to remind us that the Type 32 might be a thing.
Boris, on looking at a Type 23, said : ‘Is that a Type 32? ‘
He had all the right numbers, but not necessarily in the right order
I don’t understand the point in spending time and money on a third frigate class, which would create a third platform for training. Why not just use the money to buy more of the T26 or T31? The design and development is done, they are in production as we speak, so instead of 5 or 6 of a third class, increase the numbers of the two classes that we are already building.
T32 was envisaged at the time to be a different platform for different uses.
The T32 has already been eclipsed by a potentially new generation of lean manned warship..
I think we all know that the next major RN surface combatant will probably evolve into a 3,000 ton vessel, have no more than 30 core crew and reconfigurable for different tasks via Special equipment modules.
Hopefully, allowing it to be built in quantity…
Sounds like a wonder shop that won’t happen
Yes the type 32 has been dead for some years now
And it doesn’t look like we will be moving past 19 escorts
Once the new frigates arrive by 2035 hopefully!
I can see type 83 delayed as long as possible and type 45
Serving into the 2040s before being replaced.
The FSS is priority now after the frigates then MRSS
Supposed to be early 2030s first ships that’s our lot
I think no money for anything else!
If we are very lucky 3 purpose built drone ships with dual
OPV role maybe.
Type 45 has been an absolute mess from the get-go… And it is still not fixed.
Well it’s what we have
I am sure it can wait, no need to hurry the world is a safe place under the guardianship of Uncle Donald and his friend Vlad the Mad and Xi the inscrutable. Starmer is a liar… sorry auto spell meant to say lawyer and all they do is obfuscate and delay so he is just transferring that system to government. Everything can wait until after lunch or tomorrow…oh no we are not sitting tomorrow ….well next week sometime will do I suppose. Bring on the Tesla robots what harm can they do? Nothing is getting done but lots will be done……honest. The urgency Rutte is calling for is falling on deaf ears in Whitehall and much of southern Europe too.
My fear is that the Type 83 will also be kicked down the road…
starmer we’ll have 12 more submarines trust me the girl in accounts won’t stump the money for that one. but trust me, the nation will be safer under this Labour Circus of a government well have to get rid of everything else before you’ll see an ambitious project like that.
Frankly we need a couple of more T26, a few more T31 and up arm the T31 to survive in a more highly contested battle space. Not another class we have no idea what it is for.
Yes, to get the fleet up to 24.
Rank stupidity an evolved type 31 should be ordered and built even if one is built and the earlier one is sold as the new hulls come online if only to incrementally improve and hopefully reduce the required crew numbers by increase automation.
Maybe it will be ordered. We’ve seen that no major decision is ever taken until a year after the last possible minute, after some of the critical personnel have been let go, so there’s still time.
Agree. T31 is a large, flexible platform and relatively affordable. A few more with rafted engines and ASW sensors would deliver a decent, second tier, all round capacity.
First tier will be 6 + 8.
ASW capability will also grow if we increase SSN numbers under AUKUS.
That gives us a well balanced fleet and looks a realistic ambition.
MRSS has had a name change but there is still no final design..Originally described as a big and simple warship, the name change might mean a smaller, better armed platform, versatile enough for a range of roles.
No new frigates are going to happen.
One thing I can bet my money on their will be no Type 32s order by this government 💷 💷 😟
Thinking outside the box, why don’t the MOD make T32 a simple wooden, sail driven vessel, along the lines of HMS Victory. They could build hundreds for the price of one T26. Put gazillions of guns on them. Crew them with all those gen Z kids who have ‘mental health issues’ – two years on an open boat should cure them. They would be invisible to radar. No electronic items of any sort allowed on board. Messages sent and received by pigeon. Just imagine 80 of these magnificent beasts sailing out of the mist and into the Baltic to do battle.
Scrap Tempest. Build instead 1000 balsawood fighter aircraft – we could call them Spitfires – and 500 long range balsa bombers. ‘Lancaster’ sound a good name for them.
The army could walk into battle, armed with ballistas and onagers. Worked for the Romans.
Surely, even the MOD couldn’t mess it up. Could they?
Forget T32 – it’s become evident that was never serious. A total concept phase spend of just £5M in the four years to 2024. The fact that it never even had its own programme office despite the expected value (over £1bn?) tells all you need to know.
The urgent calls that the DIP will need to address are:
1. How many RN T26’s will be sold to Norway and will they be replaced?
2. Are the River B1’s going to be directly replaced? I.e. by new ships rather than by pulling a couple of B2’s back to UK waters. Or if he later is the preferred approach, will a couple more T31’s or improved River’s be ordered to preserve the very successful forward presence taskings (politically, military, commercially, soft power, and RN retention – crews love it.)
3. Hard decisions on the the T92 sloop (role, capabilities, size, crewing), ditto the Type 93 Chariot
4. Clarity is also urgently needed on the hybrid air group for the QEC. These ships need to get militarily seriously useful in order to justify their cost, or the RN will lose them. What will replace Merlin Crowsnest for AEW in 5 years time? How do we get the badly needed AAR capability? Are the carriers going to be fitted with a shorts EMALS catapult and an angled deck so that they can operate usefully large and heavy UAV/UCAV’s (i.e. 10-15 tonnes loaded)?
5. Rapid progress on the future mine hunting capability. HMS Stirling Castle is basically a trails and training ship. Either crack on with the three purpose built three Offshore Support Vessels (OSVs) or order some manned MCMV’s. Build the later abroad if necessary, preferably as a trade for T31’s built in Rosyth. [Scrapping or selling the Sandown’s without a replacement has proven truly foolish]
6. Confirmation that the MRSS programme will progress, with an order for the first three ships to be placed in 2026, otherwise no chance of them starting to enter service in 2031.
Unfortunately i think what youve mentioned will either be cancelled or pushed back, certainly a few things on there that wont happen. Were broke and the Gov just wont admit it.
‘T32’ will become the replacement for the 3 x Batch 1 OPVs 👍
wasn’t that the original plan? The T32 replacing the Batch 1 Rivers?
No and No, Batch 1s werent being replaced and T32 was the aspiration for more escorts.
Cheers Hugo -thanks for clarifying.
8 x T26 will become 5 x T26.
Well flog 3 in build to the Norwegians
Face it, the RN surface fleet is going down the plug hole.
So they will scrap Rype 32 that was ment to grow fleet numbers and replace tgem with a few cheep drone boats…
I dont know why this is an issue tbh. Boris made a gaff and instead of owning up to his mistake he just ran with. I fully believe T-32 was never a thing.
Is there any news on when the plan is actually going to be published, I thought it was meant to be Q3 2025 but that’s been and gone. Going to assume 2026 sometime.
This endophobe government isn’t going to order a single additional ship, plane, or tank. They seem to enjoy mocking the public by claiming they’re going to increase defense spending—it’s all lies.
When grass cutting and window cleaning is added to the defence budget, you know it’s all just very creative accounting
The name says it all.
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DIP – Defence INVESTMENT Plan
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With bean counter termionology within the project plan, you know who ever is involved is not defence oriented, but fiscally motivated.
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To be defence oriented, any fiscal benefits come with sustainment in orders, design and production, which the decision makers (sic) have absolutely zero concept of.
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No. If they did, the T31 Batch IIs or T32 or whatever you want to call them, would already on the books with the builders. …as would the T26 Batch III (including additional hulls above the pitiful 8, levering off economies of scale the Norway order should deliver) and I won’t go into the destroyers, amphibs, MCM and Hunter-Killers 🙃 It all points to defence procurement being broken, simple as that.
You are dealing with an MOD who spent £Millions researching which 5” gun to buy.
The Choice was basically the BAE 5”, or, the BAE 5”
MAndarin speak for it’s never going to happen . Despite the promised uplift to defence spending it will just be accounting tricks , I can’t see any real money forthcoming in the near future .
All well and good, as long as we get additional T26 and T31 orders.
Were not
And there you have it from Sir Richard Knighton, we are living through a period of defence cuts.
The type 32 was a slip of the tongue from the baffoon that was BoJo.
Regardless of BoJos obvious incompetence the fact remains according to SDSR we should have a fleet of “at least” 25 frigates and destroyers. With current vessels in build we have 19. So 6 vessels short. Easy to fill the requirements for type 32 with a revised type 31 frigate hull. If we can fund 4 of these to act as ASW, mine warfare and subsea surveillance mother ships then great. Also would like to see 2 more type 26 frigates squeezed out of the programme before production switches to type 83 destroyers.
Leave Appledore and Plymouth to construct the type 91+92 sloops of war envisioned.
Wishful thinking that were ever getting more than 19 again
Unlike many on here I do think there was the intention to build more hulls. Weather you think Boris mis spoke or not largely depends on the colour or your glasses 🤔. But the evidence that there was push build hulls is there and it lies in the ill fated Britsh flag ship. However it became clear this was all going to be unaffordable, the flagship was cancelled and the T32 was allowed to limp on for politic reasons, cancelling it made no sense for the Tories, had more political value to keep it alive and let Labour cancel it.
The Tories intended to build a few LSS’s and a new Royal Yacht, no idea where they thought the budget was going to come from, so I’m sure there was a badly thought out plan for Type 32.
Checking Danish newspapers, an Euro 1 bn order for four T31’s from Babcock was all set to be announced in September, but ministers suddenly got cold feet over the deal. Firstly there was huge pressure to build the ships in Denmark rather than the UK, with a consortium of Danish companies proposing to build the ships at Esbjerg, they claimed the first frigate could be delivered in 2029. Secondly, to counter pressure from the USA and Trump, the Danish government approved a Euro 1 bn package of measures to strength the defences of Greenland – using initially the funding allocated to the frigate project.