The Ministry of Defence has suggested that a future icebreaker could form part of Britain’s long-term Arctic strategy, though no firm commitment has been made.
In response to a written question from Conservative MP Ben Obese-Jecty about whether the UK would procure an icebreaking ship to complement HMS Protector, Defence Minister Luke Pollard said the capability is under consideration.
“While an icebreaking capability does not form part of the Atlantic Bastion plan,” Pollard said, “the UK recognises the increasing strategic importance of the Arctic and High North.”
The Atlantic Bastion concept, introduced in the 2025 Strategic Defence Review, is the Royal Navy’s plan to secure the North Atlantic against what the Ministry describes as a “persistent and growing underwater threat from a modernising Russian submarine force.” HMS Protector, the UK’s only polar-capable vessel, primarily operates in the Southern Ocean.
Pollard added that “future icebreaker capabilities are being considered to deliver the Strategic Defence Review vision” and confirmed that “all capability requirements [are] considered as part of the Defence Investment Plan, which will be completed in autumn 2025.”
While the minister’s answer does not confirm any new procurement, it indicates that the UK government is actively weighing the need for enhanced high-latitude capabilities. A future icebreaker, if approved, would strengthen the Royal Navy’s ability to operate year-round in increasingly accessible Arctic waters.
Maybe the 3% increase will help break the Ice, I can definately see the UK warming to the Idea, let’s hope this renewed Arctic Interest is just the tip of the Iceberg.
“HMS Endeavour” ?
buy one from trade.
🤣
Babcock are developing an ice hardened hull version of the Arrowhead A140. Perhaps a T31/32 with ice hardened hull is the alternative?
Is that still happening with the T26 now being offered to Norway? Either way it could be good for a class of 4-5 ships.
Babcock seems to have a long list of options that they offer to customers.
Where did you hear that?
Sensible for the UK to have some artic presence to share operations in the far north. Wonder if a Canadian Harry Dewolf type AOPV might be useful or might that be too small?
I welcome another ice breaker for the Navy if it happens , but when we’re losing to Assault ships ?
Finland has more ice breakers than anyone, I just can’t see this as a priority at the expense of something like an amphibious ship or auxiliary.
Hi Jim, Yes Finland has lots of Icebreakers, but theirs are short ranged and are in the Baltic and 100% needed to keep ports and Sea routes open, they are the No1 experts in building larger ocean going ones however.
But we don’t need an Icebreaker as such, there are different categories of Ice Capable ships and Polar 5 is quite sufficient for Arctic and the Antarctic, where the role is presence, patrol and surveillance, not combat as up there its MPA or Submarines.
There are sound reasons why no one has built a real Ice capable combat ship, the hull forms are completely different, wide, slow and have bow form that rides up onto the Ice and uses the engines / weight to cleave down into the Ice. Also really not really suitable for mounting many weapons, usually just a medium could gun and a Helicopter or two anything else is just extra Ice build up (these days small crews and H&S).
As for budget I’m altering my way of thinking, I’m onboarding the implications of the new 2 Money Bucket for Defence NATO concept. So spending money on a patrol / surveillance Ice capable ship just shouldn’t impact actual Direct Defence spending.
So are you suggesting a governmental ‘polar research vessel’ that spends much of its time doing hydrographic work for the MoD, but also does scientific research and has surveillance kit (modular?)?
Err no, we are British and would never stoop so low as to dress up a Military OPV, underwater surveillance vessel as a civilian research ship. We leave that to the Russians / Chinese !
I’m thinking an Ice capable SURTASS ship with OPV features.
Ice and towed arrays don’t really go together, do they? And I thought that SURTASS would by covered by Cabot and T93?
Fair point on the dual role stuff, I suppose, but maybe something similar to HMS Protector with more OPV and surveillance kit?
Sounds good. 3-4 of those with the ability to be re-roled as troops ships or hospital ships would be a sound idea.
Or a mothership for drone operations.
Shouldn’t the Atlantic Bastion plan also include an Ice Breaker capable ship, given that ice must encroach on what will be the Bastion area of operation? Making it a hardened hull Arrowhead 140 option, as John states above, would give us added flexibility but we ‘absolutely’ need an eventual replacement for HMS Protector for the south, World politics is showing us the need to strengthen any presence in both Northern and Southern oceans.
This is an old chestnut.. Over the decades the Navy as drawn up many staff requirements for having an icebreaker. We dream…we await Treasury rejection again.
So a standard HMG comment.
We are looking.
We are assessing
We are considering.
We are keeping under review.
So in reality nothing changes, we are not buying anything, especially in this Parliament, the forces will remain too small, and all the hollowing out comments from Healey and Starmer have mysteriously dropped away now they’re in the hot seat.
WHAT a surprise.
On Icebreakers, why? Our SSN already operate under the ice, or did. And the area is dominated by Russia, who have the resources and the bases in close proximity.
I’d rather spend the money on the RM and an amphibious capability, which we have currently lost. Every single LSD(A) I read is out of use at this time.
Yup, It’s just Words, “all talk and no action.”
Can’t blame the Bee Gees for this – surely!
Well, it is a Tragedy.
this joke of a government will change it’s mind twice before anything happens.
Indeed it is, however you might gain Immortality just by Stayin’ Alive.
Are you OK ? Are you suffering from Night Fever ? maybe you should be dancing.
Anyway thanks for the friendly chat and BTW, How Deep is your love ?
And this will give you the shits….HMAS Choules (was it ex HMS Lymes Bay?) seems to be okay here, tied up in Sydney, but not doing anything by the look of it.
Sorry, msuve ex-HMS Largs Bsy?
Hi M8, Until the DIP is announced in the Autumn that’s all we will get, lots of waffle, so be patient they will have to announce something or other definite soon.
As for this Post I take a slightly different view on this one (no surprise there), and I’m going to challenge you a little bit on your thinking (feel free to challenge back).
Defence capability isn’t all about things that can bang and also we need to start to adapt how we see defence spending. You are looking at this as a drain on the defence budget, but to quote Bob Dylan “the times are a changing” and we need to take those changes onboard.
Sometimes Defence is just a matter of presence and surveillance that’s needed, and in the case of the Arctic and Antarctic you don’t need a full on heavily armed Warship (in fact that’s a very bad idea). We need something reliable, great seakeeping, is tough as old boots, plenty of sensors, a Helicopter and just a minimum armament. You just need to look at what Canada, Norway, Denmark and Chile use to see what’s needed.
By any definition it’s a Defence / Security function and would be of enormous benefit if we can afford it, BUT it’s not directly combat related.
Now to quote yourself “I’d rather spend the money on the RM and Amphibious capability”
Sorry M8 but I think that’s an obsolete way of thinking about Defence spending, it just got revolutionised and most folks aren’t thinking ahead about what’s just happened. NATO and Trump just re wrote the rule book, so by 2035 we need to be spending 3.5% on direct Defence PLUS 1.5% on indirect security and defence matters so we need to get our heads around how we now use 2 separate buckets of money 🤔
I see this as a way of increasing the effectiveness of the 3.5% budget by digressing itself of support roles into the 1.5% budget. Put simply the 3.5% is for Fighting and 1.5% is for support and enabling !
The effect of doing that would be huge as you really would be concentrating all of the 3.5% on direct Defence (inc Pensions and CASD). But you also ring fence the support functions that have been repeatedly cut over the years to ensure the front end is paid for. By putting them into separate budgets which NATO monitors you stop Political meddling (just watch immigration being put in category 2).
So maybe in future anything you don’t think is a Direct Defence bit of spending your answer could be “that’s a great way to spend money to indirectly boost defence and security, budget option no 2 please !”.😉
So why not build 3/4 Polar 5 class Ice Hardened Patrol / Surveillance ships and assign them, the RN OPVs, fishery protection etc into a modernised / enlarged Coast Guard (just like everyone else does). Then put that along with RFA, GCHQ, security services, housing, infrastructure etc into the 1.5% budget ?
Now back to the actual ships, we could tie this up with a Norwegian T26 buy package (we really don’t do Ice Hardened ships), the Canadian “Harry de Witt” ships are just a very expensive version of the Norwegian Svalbard Coast Guard OPV. So we a licence for the design get them to project manage it and they build some parts along with CL, HW (Appledore).
Everyone concentrates on Frigates, Submarines etc but we do need other less glamorous ships and preferably built here. Which is why I think it would be a great way to keep the smaller less Fighty shipbuilding ticking over because we will need new MCMV, MROSS OPVs etc etc.
No worries my friend.
It is certainly a great way to boost mass, and I like the idea. But will they actually think the way you do?!
I think they have already shoved the SIA, so Security Service, the SIS, and GCHQ you list into core, as part of the 2.6% so good luck wanting it in the 1.5%
1.5% the way things are going, will be things like rural broadband and as much non real defence related stuff as possible, like Italy, who want to put a multi billion bridge into theirs.
And as for the 3% you really think they won’t try and put as much other stuff in it as possible to avoid spending on actual core military kit?! They’re already treating core budget as an industrial subsidy exercise, have done for years, and seem to be expanding that.
We now have the DNE, Pensions, Ukraine aid money, ops money, and the SIA in it. So far.
I recall a similar idea when people here years ago called for new RFA vessels that could do HADR be put into the aid budget, like the 1.5% a neat idea.
I’ve no faith it’ll happen, this government are as smoke and mirrors as the last.
“You’re looking at this as a drain on the defence budget”
Not so, my friend, I just don’t think Ice breakers for the RN are necessary. Sailing it into Russia’s backyard in a war it would last 5 minutes as that area north of the Barents and Kara seas is a Russian bastion. Our SSN have operated in the far north, they didn’t need an icebreaker AFAIK?
I’d not want any RN surface units up there, I’d want SSN up there.
On fighty things, a gentle reminder I always call for more CS CSS and enablers as much, or more than, the fighty bits, Army wise, and the same goes for the RN RAF, and MoD infrastructure, so I’m not being put in the only interested in fighty things corner.😉
Yes, the mythical Autumn statement.
Before SDR, it was, wait for the SDR. Now, we wait for the autumn.
I predict very little. Remember this convo, we shall see in the autumn. The money is being channeled elsewhere to what HMG prioritise, industry, not for the expansions in conventional capability people are dreaming of.
I fear the bond market will refuse to buy UK (& USA) Gov debt. So if UK defence spending goes above 2.9%, I will be amazed. For sure, they could fiddle the figures by calling non defence spending as some how being defence spending i.e. bluster it. Would anyone believe it?
I agree we won’t see much in the Autumn. We know there is no extra money for Defence planned before the promised £5bn in 2027. That will ease the current constraints somewhat. However, I wouldn’t expect to see anything extra this year, perhaps a billion or so will be brought forward to next year. However the new Defence Spending Plan itself should be interesting in terms of format and detail. It’s replacing the old Defence Equipment Plan which we didn’t get last year, and the level of transparency will tell its own story. The split between conventional and nuclear, roughly 60:40 in the 2023 Equipment Plan, may have changed.
As for what’s going to be included in the new 1.5% I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned HS2.
Firstly I don’t want Icebreakers in the RN and I’d be amazed if the RN did, that would be a massive waste of money. All I’d like to see are some Ice capable Patrol and Surveillance ships, for the far North and for the Falklands. I sincerely doubt that a Labour Politician with a degree in Politics and the EU actually knows the difference between an Icebreaker and an Ice Capable ship Since the Cold War, global warming has moved the Ice shelf back and created a whole new zone of open water that needs a presence and due to pack ice it needs Ice Capable ships.
It’s something we really do need to think about as the world is changing and we just aren’t, which makes us pretty unique in a bad way as every other country with an interest up there has such vessals.
FYI during the Cold War the RN realised that the T22 was getting too big, expensive and they couldn’t afford enough of them. So they decided to design a much cheaper ship with very little offensive capacity but just able to tow TASS and find Russian Submarines at a safe distance. That would help the escorts, MPA and SSN to concentrate on the kill part of the process and escorts could be made more affordable, unfortunately the MOD gremlins got to work merged a lot of it together and we got the T23.
The practical side of a TASS towing ship design didn’t actually disappear it was the very last RCNC design and it became the Castle class OPV, it wasn’t Ice capable but excellent Sea keeping and capable of TASS towing, oddly it was the last RN ship equipped with a Crows nest for visual sightings.
As for the 2 buckets of money I suspect that our Political / Treasury masters may also have to adjust their thinking. The fact is that for every Italy there is a Germany, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia and they just aren’t going to wear any cooking of the books (why should they), so just watch them Snitch to Daddy.
I’m willing to bet that the first recipient of a Shock is going to be Spain and that may well set the tone for what happens next !
Trump and NATO may well force changes that we never have had to abide with and I think it will become the norm. I suspect NATO is presently defining precisely what is and what isn’t allowable.
As for our industry well so far some of it has been really sensible, overdue and vital infrastructure investment that private industry just couldn’t raise commercial capital to fund. For example SFM has unique capabilities that are strategically vital to both ourselves and the US, but it just couldn’t raise the £400 million needed to expand and modernise. Try walking into a bank explaining that you need £400 million to make things for customers you can’t talk about, contract details that are NDA’d and you need the money to make things that are a secret.
However the vast majority of it has been in the DNE and that just couldn’t be avoided or via grants for specific investment in Directly Defence related industry. SFM had to be saved and invested in, RR Raynesway is 100% DNE, ditto Barrow, Aldermaston and many others all DNE (inc Rosyth, Faslane, Guz).
But then there are now 2 large gun barrel facilities (one is BAe M777 production), 1 mortar barrel facility, 6 Ammunition factories, Sunny Scunny Steel making and a few others.
It will be interesting to see what they do about Steel production and I mean Green Steel not remelted scrap, they either park their green credentials or go for Hydrogen like Sweden / Germany are doing.
What you have to remember is all of the above DNE investment is a huge pile of money that’s all having to be spent now because for nearly 35 years they ignored it completely. Most of what is in place in the DNE dates back to the late 50’s to late 70’s and it’s knackered, out of date or just not……… not going there ! It’s the whole lot all at once from one end to the other, security, materials, design and development, safety, production, transport, storage, communications, technology, training & recruitment, infrastructure, support and maintenance, housing, decommissioning and eventual disposal (TBA). And it was all avoidable if they had just kept everything on a rolling schedule of continuous investment but nope each Government just asked will it last while I’m here and then kicked the can down the road. Then Astute came along and everyone got to see just how bad it was and how much muddling through cost, then there were the Old boats just sitting and rotting slowly away, it all adds up so now we have to lay a huge bill.
Maybe it’s because I’ve actually seen the awful effects of the DNE being crucified up close and very personal (friends and relatives all went too soon) but then watching the start of the upturn and its effects so I’m now a bit less pessimistic than I was.
And it’s all been Defence related investment but nearly all by BW and within the next few years we will have most of that done, but then what ?
Now here are my 2 reasons that I’m feeling a bit up beat about things.
1. I am 63 and am considering an offer to un retire (less time for UKDJ but learning a new CAD system 🤔).
2. As HMG has spent a fortune on investment in the Defence industry what the hell are they going to do with it if they don’t actually order anything ?
The latter is the thing to really think about and may well explain why they are in Political stall mode ! Starmer and Reeves are now between a massive Financial Rock and a Hard place, they can’t get cuts through to pay for anything on one side but have an International Agreement with a Tyrant on the other.
So I’m betting on either a straight 2% income Tax increase is announced to pay for defence is announced and we see quite a large uplift in orders in the DIP.
Honestly DIP who the hell thought Defence Investment Plan was a good idea Dipsey from the Teletubbies 😂
Have a nice weekend M8.
Hi mate.
Good post, lots to consider. And I’m now in the **** at work trying to get people home in this warm weather, so will read more closely later!
Stay retired! You lucky chap.
Hi DM,
RE your reply to ABC down below, the smooth running of air conditioned trains was much appreciated on a Friday afternoon!
Hi mate.
Goodo
I wasn’t on, but I am now!
What I would do is put the polar ice class capability on the MRSS class.. so essentially if you are focusing your RMs in the high north you can push them anywhere..make them class 4-5 polar class hulls and you can threaten all Russian polar infrastructure..all year round.
Hi Jonathan, Have you looked at the difference in the shape of a Polar classified hull and its cost to construct. I just don’t see the 2 as being compatible, now if you suggested combining it with a SURTASS or SIGINT capability I’d see the logic.
Personally I think the idea of a 6k tonne Ice Capable OPV / SURTASS would be very handy up in the Arctic Sea or GIUK Gap would be very handy.
Waffle, waffle, waffle….We are planning a gigantic potential fleet but not actually ordering anything and can’t anyway for five years at least until the 3 per cent of ??? becomes available….maybe.
Until someone else has to take responsibility.
Bingo.
Meanwhile, is that 30 billion to the NHS immediate?
No, over the next 99 years but you can have a nice holiday in Mauritius once a year.
A useful addition to the fleet if the money is there.
A bigger navy (25+ escorts), a bigger RAF (3+ more squadrons), and fuck the army is where things are heading.
How much more ***** can the Army take though; it’s spent over a decade playing the red-headed stepchild in the eyes of the treasury, suffered through various grand-visions without a plan from its own leaders, and managed to take a good chunk of the blame and spite for funding/branch balance issues because of our MP’s fairly recent sandy adventures now. It’s glaringly obvious it’s suffered deep and probably long-lasting trauma because of it. A solid commitment to personnel numbers that is actually around another 3k cut is what the SDR seems to have offered.
Every day we inch closer to;
Army: “do you actually want us to exist in a meaningful way?”.
Government: “who the **** let you in this office?”
Not that the others are not suffering, hiring for submarine operation leadership positions on Indeed and handing control of the Navy to a RM. That’s not 5D-chess, outside-the-box thinking it’s realising the box is empty (after continued warning’s it was about to be) and panicking no matter how much spin is placed on it. RAF numbers are down to airframe hours being burned up far faster than ever envisioned to meet the “more with less” governments have demanded. Oh, and the Italians will continue to come to their rescue in regard to training, we hope.
Germany and France will overtake us militarily in spend, industrial capacity and at least France in capability. I honestly think our Government are hoping for it, being in the big boy room with the USA is probably too stressful for them.
‘the capability is under consideration’, that comment covers 90% of every thing these days, its all under consideration yet we buy nothing, order nothing just talk about it. AS90 out of service yet no replacement ordered. Just one example, Warrior being phased out, nothing yet ordered. LHS both scrapped yet nothing ordered. Puma helicopters scrapped nothing ordered. A lot window shopping and hot air about most things but no orders or even trials to decide what to order. Just deluded nutters saying we are ready to fight Russia, with what?.
CVR (T) retired its replacement 8 years late, less than half built, AEW aircraft scrapped no replacement yet ready and only 3 being built. Challenger 2 running out of spares and its ammo no longer made no C3 yet built let alone fully trialed.
This may be a stupid idea but if we now have laser weapons on ships can’t they just use them to cut the ice?
That sort of works in my head, anyway.
Yes but it doesn’t stop the hull getting crushed.
If you consider the need for a large ish patrol/autonomous vessel mother ship and platform for the RM in the high north at least one MRSS would be good to have as an polar ice class ship.. but like everything it’s details.. what class of polar ice ship do you have..are you looking for a polar class one that can do year round polar and essentially punch a hole through an iceberg..class two that can crunch through 10 feet of old ice or class seven that can break through a couple of feet of new autumn ice..
Essentially if the RN is going to be operating in the high north it probably needs some actual all year rounds polar ice class ships.. maybe the MRSS should be focused on the North with them having class 4-5 polar class hulls ( around 4 foot of ice all year round activity). This would essentially give the RN a unique ability to push surface warships into the high north all year round.. as well as support high north RM activities.
Finally it may want a polar class 2 ice breaker that can essentially push anywhere.
No not Ice breaking with the Ice pack shrinking it’s more to do with the floating Ice and what’s underneath them. Canada / Norway have it right so something like the Harry de Witt / Svalbard would do the job but the Jan Mayen is a very interesting design.
I just don’t understand your idea of incorporating ICE capable into the MRSS and Marine activities in the High North, threatening Russian Polar activity. The RM has always focussed on reinforcing Norway and some form of raiding capability would be handy but a full on Ice Hardened Amphibious ship operating up there, it’s a very large slow moving target.
And right next to their bastions crawling with ships, subs, and in missile range.
Which was my main objection to having such. I’d not want any RN vessel up there, there’s no need.
US and RN SSN are the assets that can go in and threaten those bastions, and hunt SSBN under the ice, with Carrier Aviation hitting the Kola, which was a NATO plan from the Cold War which I assume holds true today.
It’s more about civilian infrastructure, Russia are putting a lot into energy extraction in the high north..threaten that with raiding forces..it takes a lot of their resources.. if you cannot get raiding forces up there you cannot threaten, it’s not about doing it’s about creating the threat that limits Russian expansion …also remember a fair amount of the artic ocean area of extraction is not that closes to the Russian bastion and it’s very very hard to a get high concentrations of high end assets into the artic ocean, because no one puts even basic class of ice hardening on warships… but we known the high artic is a new frontier.. sometimes you have to consider the potential geostrategic situation in a couple of decades.
If MRSS is turned into a raiding vessel not a full fat amphibious vessel, making it able to operate in the high north is probably consistent with future need.
I thought their infra was along their northern coastline, from the White Sea and Arkangelsk so Taymar, Norilsk.
Blimey, if they are paranoid now about Ukraine and their supposed backyard they’ll be beside themselves. They see that sea as Russian.
And how does a ship get up there through their bastions in the Kara Sea?
As you know, they have the bastions concept for their fleet, I’d not want any RN there apart from an SSN.
Even if it expands as a trade route.
Hi Daniele the future will be mid artic ocean that is where the present exploration is looking at.
The need is for delivering military pressure and threat is separate from and not high end peer war destruction. That is what MRSS in the high north is really about.. pressure threat and presence. Delivering various capabilities where needed and that will be mid artic over the next few decades.. cracking and putting the bastions at risk is a different and high end capability set.. the high north is a set of geostrategic needs not just all out peer war and a bloodbath in the bastion.
Not so much.. winter ice is still winter ice.. and even floating polar ice is a risk to warships as they are at present. The artic ocean is very likely to become one of the defining areas of geostrategic conflict.. and it will all be about widely scattered civilian extraction industries and how you can either threaten or control that..and that is not SSNs it’s about small specialist patrol and interventions.. essentially a ship that can carry our surveillance, carry a company of Marines etc.. mid artic ocean control and exploration will be important over the next decade… Russia will used a mixed civilian, military and political warfare approach.. a polar capable MRSS is just what you would want, otherwise you end up getting all your capabilities shut down in early autumn as new winter ice extends over the mid artic ridge and down into the Greenland sea.
Hull shape wise it for polar class it all depends how you go..yes your not getting a 30knot destroyer class 4 polar hull..but a large patrol and littoral combatant with a speed of 24knots you could combine with a hull shape that would serve.
As for reducing sea ice…we have to be a little bit carful about that assumption to be honest I was always taught ( I was an environment scientist before I became an emergency worker) that we are possibly going to loss the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) sometime due to desalination of the northern oceans and seas.. we loose the AMOC and the Greenland sea, Norwegian Sea, eastern North Atlantic etc will trigger a Massive cooling event as 1.2 Petawatts of heat are no longer transferred north. This would lead to the UK experiencing Sea ice if it happened with present sea temperatures… so we have to be very very careful with predictions around sea ice loss in the northern occeans as it not going to be liner at all.. there is a very good chance we will see a reduction.. followed by a swift massive increase..them followed by it starting to reduce again…but now one is really sure how it will go or what it would level out to.. the AMOC is a very very big joker in the pack that could turn our bit of the world very cold as the rest gets hot hot hot.
It’s all you will hear from this government, all talk and no firm commitment.
Labour are playing the long con.
Oh leave it out, by the time this became a reality there wouldn’t be any ice left.
Quick, make mine a double then.
But i heard that by 2025 coastal cities will be under water due to melting ice and that that no more snow will fall in Britain, “it will be a thing of the past” scientists said.