Ukraine has used the Bayraktar TB2 drone in combat for the first time.

It was used to destroy enemy artillery in Donbas, which fired on the village of Granitne.

According to the Ukrainian Military here:

“Drones were used for the first time to destroy enemy artillery that were shelling the village of Granitne, after which the militants claimed the alleged liberation of the Armed Forces of the village of Staromaryivka.

Video of the destruction of an enemy artillery installation:

“It was decided to use Ukrainian strike drones to work from a distance of more than 15 km, to save the lives of civilians and soldiers. In response, to save the lives of soldiers and civilians, a Bayraktar UAV was raised, a battery was found, and a cannon was destroyed by a missile. At this moment. 

The calculations of others fled. But this is not true. Because they raised more than one bird. The destruction of one calculation of the enemy artillery system was confirmed, the others left their positions.”

The drones have been used by others before, you can read more about that here.

UK ‘must learn lessons’ of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

 

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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102 COMMENTS

  2. It is never pleasant seeing footage of people who are about to die. Yet they got up and fled after impact??? What ordnance does this drone carry?

  3. The TB2 is by all accounts a cheaper drone. I admire the ingenuity of countries who cannot afford to design, develop and build high end drones but can mass produce cheaper more affordable options.

    • Mike wrote:
      The TB2 is by all accounts a cheaper drone.

      A good point and harking back to the ubiquitous T34 during WW2 (58701 built during WW2) as opposed to a total of 49777 German tanks over the same time frame, the Turks have in place the numbers to not only be everywhere at once, but to be able to accept losses in its UAV Fleet (over 30 in Libya and the same in Syria) and not lose step. In contrast the UK has purchased 10 Reapers which they are about to replace with 16 Protectors . Not only that whilst we use Hellfires, Paveways and Brimstone (which whilst effective cost a packet (damn good Undertones line there) The Turks have designed their MAM missile solutions with the MAM C based on the 70mm rocket, the MAM-L which is the main tank killer and comes in at 22kgs (as opposed to the Hellfire at 45kg, Brimstone at 50Kg) and their latest MAM-T which looks like it will give Brimstone a run for its money by being a lot cheaper and just as effective. Meaning they can afford to stock pile weapons

      • Project Alvina could change that, although its working on the swarming software not the platform – but designed for cheap mass drone use. Also LMM / Martlet is a cheap weapon (there is also a glide version that can be carried by small drones like Watchkeeper). The RAF has formed several new squadrons for Alvina swarming tech – one hopes they stand them up on a few low cost platforms soon.

        • Must surely also be benefit in providing army wildcats with the option of martlet for use against non heavy armour targets of opportunity.. especially in peer conflicts where drone jamming may become an issue.

      • It’s amazing how we keep forgetting the lessons learned. We like our hi tech kit with all the bells and whistles, trouble is one bit of bad luck leads to a loss and with it x% of the available force.

        The scene from a bridge too far comes to mind, “we can’t afford to lose a single aircraft”.

        That’s rapidly becoming a key point of any military briefing. Losses will occur, regardless how good the kit, bad luck happens, Intel can be wrong etc etc. We have too few eggs in a fragile basket…

        • Yep tech is always claimed to be the force multiplier. I remember the F22 went up against 4th gen fighters in a mock air battle and took them out without a single loss. The trouble is the Raptor couldn’t physically carry as many missiles as the opponents it took out 🙂 So is a real battle the Raptor would return to base leaving the remaining enemy planes to complete their mission.

  5. From my days of doing cold War Soviet kit recognition training it looks like they where the venerable D30 122mm guns set up in the age old Soviet deployment pattern… Line’ em up all in a row.

    Not a very big bang but it doesn’t need to be. Any damage to the gun, trunions, training base or wheels or towing equipment is going to render it in op.

    As for everyone legging it…
    Objective achieved.
    The gun crews didn’t know if another strike was inbound. For that matter they will now be reluctant to go back to the guns knowing what will happen if they are seen.

    • Good to see that they were able to leg it after the strike- if the gun can be knocked out with minimum casualties, that’s a bonus.

      • Judging by what I have read and the basis for Germany’s disapproval I suspect this was a deliberate minimum damage strike by Ukraine. Technically they should not be using drones due to previous ceasefire agreements but clearly this sort of continuing provocation by the militants cannot be endlessly tolerated so the compromise was likely use the drone but minimise loss of life and collateral damage. Message given, fear instilled but minimises likelihood of Russian retaliation.

    • Yes, definitely, the Soviets produced thousands of them. But I would say it was a mission fail. Perhaps the gun is out of action, but with the poor imagery resolution, it’s hard to tell what damage has been done to it. Furthermore, to be objective, it is better to kill the crew than the gun, as the crew have the operational experience which takes time to retrain. Can’t believe the crew set up the guns in front of the tree line, with absolutely no camo, basics!

      Looking at Roketsan’s website, the weapon may have been the unpowered MAM-L or smaller MAM-C laser guided munition. Ukraine are on the list of users for the weapon.

    • Except that it seems that it was the Ukrainians who started the exchange of fire this time, onto housing, with this TB-2 raid being a response to the deadly return fire onto their units (2 soldiers, one dead, were hit not villagers) that resulted. This goes on multiple times a week all along the demarcation line. We only heard about this incident due to the first use of the TB-2.

      • I’m sure the Russian are just as bad with the shelling which has not been highlighted before, look at MH17 disaster and also its been proven that FSB snipers in use in the Donbass area I find it a bit hard to fathom people excusing dictatorships actions ,remember Putin made the first moves by invading the Ukraine a people who wanted to turn away from sphere of influence of what is essentially a mafia state.

  7. Interesting development, I wonder when we can expect to see their version of loyalwingman?

    Behold the first two-seat 5th Generation fighter variant in the world, the Chinese Chengdu J-20S (also known as J-20AS or J-20B). This configuration is probably made to boost cooperation between the J-20 and future unmanned “loyal wingmen” aircraft.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8OlCPnDXlM

    • I forgot to mention, and with loyal wingman?

      “In a separate article, Global Times quoted Sun Cong, chief designer of the FC-31, deployed on carriers—an F-35 lookalike—as saying “people will … see good news on the next-generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet” in the coming year.

      Senate Armed Services Committee ranking member James Inhofe (R-Okla.) said in a confirmation hearing Oct 5 that “Our commanders tell us that by 2025, the Chinese will have more fifth-generation stealth fighters on the front line than we do.” Asked for context, a spokesperson for Inhofe said the information was based on testimony provided by U.S. Indo-Pacific Command’s commander, now-retired Adm. Philip Davidson, during a March posture testimony.”

      https://www.airforcemag.com/china-likely-stepping-up-stealth-fighter-production/

      • You missed out the part of the article that say the USAF will have 652 5th gen fighters by 2025, F35 and F22. With F35 deliveries continuing for many years after. And that figure doesn’t include USN and USMC F35B/C numbers or the 12 nations outside of the USA that currently have F35 in service or on order and counting. Add in the 29 vessels that will be 5th gen F35 capable across all allied nation’s. And that’s a huge amount of deployable capability to give the Chinese sleepless nights. And the J20 and f35 copy cat are completely unproven.

      • The Chicom’s seem to be copying the exteriors of F-35 or F-22 type aircraft, without knowing what’s really inside them!
        They are a lot more complicated inside them.

    • China has also converted some old 1950s J6s to drones. Basically worthless airframes that will mean an enemy will need to waist a missile knocking out.

      • Exactly, I posted this in another thread. Clever these Chinese!

        “The JASDF’s fleet of some 215 F-15J aircraft bears the brunt of scramble tasking,” he wrote.
        “Since 2016, the JASDF has often launched four aircraft for each scramble.

        “These daily scrambles are gradually wearing the F-15J fleet out. The concern is that China has some six times more fighters than the JASDF, and could further ramp up intrusions whenever it considers appropriate. The in-service life of Japan’s F-15J fleet is now almost a decision that lies with China,” Layton said.

  8. If Turkey can manufacture drones ( plus associated ammunition) like this – why isn’t the UK. Cheap and cheerful has a place still it seems for a range of missions.

    • It really does beggar belief that we haven’t manufactured something like this in the UK, but have to buy it from abroad (Watchkeeper, Predator and Reaper etc). The first time I got up close to a Predator, I thought it was just an upscaled RC plane. It’s made from pretty much the same materials, fibreglass body and fibreglass wrapped foam wings, with small microlite engine stuffed in the back. Avionics wise, it has a EO turret with a laser designator, a satellite and a line of sight data-link, plus the fight control stuff and that was it. But was shocked at the price of $4M (2010) each. Definitely in the wrong business!

      • The early Reaper were the video feed wasn’t even encrypted and could be intercepted by the enemy with a basic receiver, It really wasn’t far off a large RC plane.

        • There are a couple of companies in the UK that could easily build a TB2/Predator equivalent such as Blue Bear Systems and Spirit Aerosystems.

    • Good point. That the country with the world’s best engine maker has no indigenous fast jet for export is somewhat understandable given the enormous cost of development. But for relatively simple drone offerings, which are all about maximizing endurance, it is hard to believe the UK isn’t a world leader yet.

      • Because we were until recently the world experts at overcomplicated perfectionist solutions?

        Now with fast prototyping and hopefully design-by-committee and design-to-bright-ideas consigned to the history books then maybe this will come good.

        I agree it is pretty amazing that a large model makers dream has not been produced. The platform + engine is the easy bit. Radars we pretty much have from the Captor program. Munitions we have anyway from plenty of other programs.

        So what is left

        Flight controls; and
        Deconfliction software – which is probably the hardest part; and
        CMS?

        • Just as far as the engines, you see it over and over again . . . Brits order Rolls Royce engines for their Apaches . . . Results in better range than their American counterparts . . . Better F35 engine design etc. The longest endurance drones in the world (Global Hawk) are already powered by Rolls Royce. It seems to be an indigenous competitive advantage (read: it could propel sales) not utilized to its potential by the rest of industry and government.

          • Good points, Ron. We (UK) always were superb on invention and development but crap at application and sales. The less developed countries can’t afford the expensive kit so spend their resources on home grown stuff which – as we found out – is just as effective as the gold plated kit we ‘developed’ countries buy.

            T’was ever thus…

    • Hi OldShool
      It seems we only buy from big companies then add expensive bits and cut the order… and good defence companies are allowed to be sold abroad
      Thanks Ian

    • Well if we had not massively screwed up / over engineered Watchkeeper with SAR, plus EO/IR targeting and fitted it with the glide version of LMM / Martlet, then we would have one.

    • Well UK is a over-regulated country with a giant bureaucracy.
      Public discussion in West – not only UK – is how to distribute money and how to cripple the initiative unless it is to be done by the State and their friends.
      The cultural incentives are similar.

    • Turkey has become a world leader on this type of drone class. What makes them effective is the electronic warfare they use to blind air defence systems and the smart munitions.. Poland is getting 25 TB2 and the UK is has shown interest and is currently assessing a proposal from Turkey to get some TB2 a Turkish minister has said.

      • Utter nonsense from Turkey.

        We are definitely not looking at TB2.

        Or any other Turkish drone for that matter.

        Unless it can fly in unsegregated airspace we’re not interested, hence Protector and Watchkeeper.

        We also have 10 Reaper that are in a different class. If we were going to do anything that would cost money we’d retain them in service.

  9. Ok it’s gonna sound callous but in the long run it would be better to kill as many ‘Russians’ as possible. There’s no opposition in Russia alive or at best free. The only political pressure Putin could face over Ukraine is dead soldiers coming back to Russian towns. Which is worse 1,000 dead now or 10.000 dead over the next 20 years. Putin and his cronies will only change strategy if he thinks it will cost him power.

    • But they won’t be Russian soldiers. They’ll either be Ukrainians who are ethnic Russians or employees of Wagner group or some similar private company.

      • Good point at start but large majority these days will be Russian. Artillery, Comms etc 100% Russian. Last report I read 2/3 of pre war inhabitants have left and basic services are a mess. The rebel areas are being run by Russian gangsters. We have economic sanctions and they were working until EU/Germany blew a gaping hole in them with the gas deal. Now we’ve got to use what pressure point we still have.

        • I’ve been following this civil war quite closely since it started following the coup in Kiev in 2014 where the new regime were determined to crush any opposition, leading to serious conflicts that ended up in a stalemate after Ukraine’s army took serious casualties. Indeed, whilst there are still disputes over the amount of Russian involvement the odds are that there was, especially in the supply of gear.
           
          The population is a minimum over 600,000, they are the ones that now have Russian (as opposed to their original Ukrainian) citizenship, living in Donbas and Luhansk, so probably around a million in total. Whilst Russia welcomes Russian speakers from Ukraine proper, millions of them have moved, its policy is to keep as many in the Donbass as possible so it is hard to emigrate.
           
          A population that size is very capable of raising a militia/army to protect itself especially when so many have seen prior service. Whilst there are senior Russian officers in the joint monitoring operation there does not appear to be any significant Russian Army involvement now, perhaps just a few specialists and in liason. Your claim of 100% Russian may well be valid but they will be locals now Russian as opposed to real Russian Army units. There is no evidence that the Russians have upgraded hardware, all photos that we see have the same equipment, like those D-30 guns, that they had in 2016/7.
           
          Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries there is, so of course it is being run by gangsters, on behalf of oligarchs, and there is not much difference either side of the dividing line, apart from perhaps their nationality.
           
          Not sure about your comments on sanctions, I assume that you mean those against Russia and NS2. They have never provided much leverage against Russia so the EU/Germany “blew a hole in them” was just them accepting the reality that Europe will desperately need the new NS” pipeline to deliver enough Russian gas this winter.
           
          As to the point about Russian casualties, Russia is unlikely to attack Ukraine unless Ukraine attacks first. It doesn’t want it as a country due to its corruption, level of debt and number of Russian haters. If it does attack then it is likely to stop at the oblast (county) borders. Such an attack is likely to be over in a few hours without any move by the Russian Army over the border. Russia will have to strike overwhelmingly hard and fast almost as the first salvos are fired as Ukraine’s main priority will be to destroy the infrastructure in Donbas. Russia’s armoury of tube and missile artillery, abetted by cruise missiles, is well capable of achieving that objective against what is in effect a shallow WW1 type front line, armour out in the open, with the locations of everything well known. It will be effectively over before a NATO meeting on it can be convened.
           
          We saw what could be achieved by smart and accurate munitions in the Iraq and that was 30 years or so ago. I know from reading your posts that some of you here faced the Red Army across the plains of Germany. The Russian Army may not be the same but imagine facing it with the munitions it has today. Then feel for the 20,000+ scared, drugged up, young Ukrainian conscripts facing it now. Their leaders in Kiev have resisted doing a deal under the agreed Minsk terms for years now, but they are unlikely to be the ones who die, if God forbid, it gets to what I describe.

          • Minsk is now controled by your despot friend, Putinbot since he has showed his true colours, so is not an honest broker!

          • Can’t claim Putin as a friend. Minsk and Belarus were merely the acceptable to all parties location for the 4 way talks, who controls it is irrelevant. The Minsk Protocol is an agreement which tried bring lasting peace to the Donbas region of Ukraine. Written by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine (Ukraine, Russia, and OSCE) and mediated by the leaders of France and Germany in the so-called Normandy Format. The main results were a plan to integrate Donbas into Ukraine in a way acceptable to all, not independance. Nothing has resulted as Kiev has refused to talk directly with the Donbas leadership and has tried ever since to make life as difficult as it can for them. Russia has actively tried to keep out of it, standing on the sidelines ensuring that there is no ethnic cleaning. A fundemental problem is that Kiev is eliminating Russian as a language/culture in the country and the people in that SE corner are all Russian speakers.

          • I don’t think Belarus is acceptable to all any longer. Need to find a new country acceptable to all and the Protocol renegotiated, so Ukraine can move forward.

  11. there were talks going around that the u.k drone taranis was to undergo test carrying weapons its been very quiet on taranis for a good while the videos showing initial flight tests were very impressive maybe armed taranis drones could ioperate from the u.k carriers adding yet another capability to the effectivness and versitality of the carrier fleet.

      • I’d be very surprised if we don’t see some of this tech and the lessons learned from Taranis used in future aircraft (Tempest) and drones (Vixen)

        UK‘s largest defense and security company BAE Systems has performed flight trials of the MAGMA to successfully demonstrate two flow control technologies that could revolutionize future aircraft design.

        BAE Systems has developed the MAGMA in collaboration with researchers at The University of Manchester.

        The MAGMA successfully completed a series of trials recently at the Llanbedr Airfield.

        The technologies have been designed to create better-performing aircraft that are lighter, more reliable and cheaper to operate. Not only this, the flap-free flight technology will also help improve an aircraft’s stealth by reducing the number of gaps and edges to make it invisible to radar.

        https://www.industrytap.com/baes-magma-demonstrates-breakthrough-blown-air-flap-free-flight-technologies/48844 

  12. Put 10 of these at 35km from a Type 31 or 26 firing missile similar to Spikes and they don’t have the range to hit the drones.

  13. Drones clearly have a place in warfare but do they have a place where the opposition has adequate AD systems? So far the TB-2 in particular has not really been up against properly trained SAMs in a radar heavy IADS. For example an isolated Pantsr is very vulnerable to a UAV operating above the range of its missiles and is not how it should be used. It will be interesting to see how they perform if/when Idlib flares up or if the Russians respond to this use. UAV are also very vulnerable to AAM or a fighter’s gun, a Spitfire anyone?

    • It is a good point well made that a TB2 wouldn’t last long against a 57/40mm radar laid auto cannon.

      Particularly with smart ammo

      • Yes but if it launches a few missiles to disable it it would have done it’s job. Not sure the cost differential of 40mm v’s one of those drones but I suspect the drones are cheaper.

        • Depends on the range and accuracy of the missiles on the drone.

          If the ** useful** kill range of the rockets is less than that of the 40mm then the drone is denied the combat area.

          The 40mm will also be excellebt at taking out missiles.

      • It is a good point well made that a TB2 wouldn’t last long against a 57/40mm radar laid auto cannon.

        Why not? it just needs to lob missiles outside their range.

        • The sort of rockets that we are talking about are not terribly long range. So the drone has to get pretty close.

          The rockets themselves are good targets for a 40mm cannon with prix fuzed ammunition.

          Let’s be honest this marginal usage case stuff. Against an enemy with low EW capabilities and no effective SAMs in theatre.

          Land Ceptor would easily take them out.

          • Good stuff SB. The problem that these ‘not small’ drones like the TB-2 have is that they are the size of a aircraft and not particularly stealthy, as such they are a sitting duck for any decent ground or air based AD. Take Syria for example, when they first appeared whilst the fighting was still active, they were a new unknown factor that sent the Russian military in particular up a very rapid and steep learning curve. Almost certainly they now have a proper layered defence within their IADS to counter them, we will see when Idlib or NE Syria starts up. As no UAV apart from maybe the RQ-180 would likely survive, it will be back to satellites.As the pilots at Waddington may well just face blank screens, we, the cash strapped UK, really need to identify what conflicts we may be involved in before we bet too heavily on them. We can’t afford to fight the next war as if it will be the same as the last.

          • Yes, that was my point.

            Any half well equipped force would take them out in moments.

            It is sort of the point I keep making that stocking up with junk systems has limited or no real utility. Just diverts resources and focus.

          • Leadership seems to be at times all too frequently more comfortable dealing with what they have used and know rather than embrace the unknown that is the future. Not helped by the MoD being steeped in offensive thoughts rather than defence of the UK.

          • Actually they took out S300 and Pantsir Russian air defence systems. They move slow and are small making it harder for defence systems designed to take out planes. The TB2 use electronic warfare systems too. Russia lost assets in Syria Libya and most recently Armenia karabak war. Russia protested the dale to Ukraine

            Akinci the latest bayraktsr drone has cruise missiles ranging 300km keeping them well away from from air defence systems. It has 40k altitude range

          • Indeed that is the case, as well as OSA and Buk systems. But interestingly you are making the case that those with inadequate AD systems are vulnerable to UAVs as it was not ‘Russia’ that lost those systems, although it was their products, it was their customers. As far as I have seen, none of those systems were either operated by Russian Army/Air Force crews or were thecurrent Russian versions. As to range, Israel is providing Russia with excellent anti flying munition training in Syria so often it doesn’t matter how far away the launch platform is. As I said, we await Idlib with interest.

          • It’s Russian weapons Vs Turkish weapons proxy wars and so far Russia has lost every round. Both are fine tuning their tech . Russia is ahead in sir defence systems and Turkey is ahead of Russia in terms of drones tech. Turkey has acquired Russian S400 while simultaneously while developing its own air long range air defence systems. It already successfully developed 30km 70km range air defence systems to protect its bases , it’s just a matter of time until they won’t need the S400. TB3 drone will be a carrier version and Aksungur are naval drones giving the Turkish navy along with autonomous boats equipped with anti ship missiles with 600km range an advantage in naval warfare multiplying it’s navy.

          • A Spike LR type missile have +30km range, you can expect maybe a delay of 5 -10 years for the other side to copy it and that is being optimistic. Since they are already in operation for some time you can expect one in the other side anytime.

            Then you have the issue of hitting such a small missile.

          • Russia has recently invested a lot of money kind of resurrecting 57mm from almost the dead. The realised that with modern munitions, targeting systems and a vast increase in ATGM it could be almost as effective as 100mm with many advantages. As part of this, new fragmenting AA rounds targetting helicopters, UAVs, drones, missiles and shells were developed. Quite different to the old Cold War Warsaw Pact 57mm AA guns

          • I assume it is being developed all the time but there seems to be a a limited range due to fuel capacity versus warhead size. As I understand it the Spike LR2, which I think is the latest version but I could be wrong, can engage targets out to 5.5km when fired from the ground launcher, while from the helicopter that increases to a maximum range of 10km.

          • Spike NLOS , apologies i made a mistake in the designation.

            “As the weapon leaped out of the launcher its solid-fuel rocket motor engaged and X-shaped wings and tail fins scissored out from the missile’s fuselage. As the missile streaked over the water at up to 425 miles per hour a flexibly mounted camera in the weapon’s nose transmitted video footage to the helicopter crew.
            A few minutes later the 156-pound Spike-NLOS missile plunged into a small boat floating on the Gulf—an impressive twenty miles away, three or four times the maximum range of its usual Hellfire armament.”

          • Thanks, I had not considered that version. But to get the range it has had to significantly increase in size making it easier to intercept compared to the LR2. The Russians have a similar missile under development called Baikal with an anticipated range of 15km from a vertical launch. No doubt the Chinese are there too.

          • Bayraktar TB2 has a payload of 150kg so it could probably take 1 + guidance system..Or 2 with reduced fuel maybe.

            It is a 70kg missile, i don’t think naval SAM’s are focused on that kind of targets.

          • Well you can’t control 20 at once…and its launcher will be in range of the ship or compromised by EW.

          • This is where spear3 comes in. Long range, intelligent targeting between flights. We already have a super strike drone….spear3. What gets me is, like Brimstone, it isn’t now in service on almost all the platforms we have.
            AA

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