Serbia is getting nine Wing Loong unmanned air vehicles from China, local media has reported.

The drones will be delivered within the next six months and there is a possibility of a follow-on order for 15 more.

Based on official marketing material released by CADI, the Pterodactyl can carry the BA-7 air-to-ground missile, YZ-212 laser-guided bomb, YZ-102A anti-personnel bomb and 50-kilogram LS-6 miniature guided bomb.

Since 2011, China has also sold the Wing Loong to several countries in Africa and the Middle East, including Nigeria, Egypt, and the United Arab Emirates, at an estimated $1 million per unit.

In March 2017, the Egyptian Air Force launched a number of airstrikes in North Sinai’s cities of El Arish, Rafah, and Sheikh Zuweid, as part of the operations conducted by the Egyptian Armed Forces against militants. Most of the strikes, which targeted stationing points and moving vehicles, were carried out by Wing Loong UCAVs leaving 18 militants killed.

In April 2019 the military media of Yemeni movement Ansar Allah published video for downing Wing Loong UCAV acting for Saudi-led intervention over Saada district and in August 2019 Libyan GNA forces announced the shoot down of a Wing Loong drone.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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82 COMMENTS

  1. Oh look, a Reaper. Another example of Chinese copying? No wonder the US keep their new aircraft under wraps for as long as possible.

    • It infuriates me how china gets away with the mass copying and stealing of western gear! Even their new ships look like knock off copys! And jets are a mix of western jets! And what about their millitary lorry’s they look exactly the same as german well one version does! And what about the exact copy of land rovers or “LAND WIND” as they call them! https://www.google.com/search?q=land+rover+knock+off+china&safe=strict&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&prmd=sinv&sxsrf=ACYBGNRmr0Dl8grcGu_rzu6baDwHDR3sXA:1569412228951&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZq6aT9OvkAhXJUBUIHe9kCKoQ_AUoAnoECA4QAg&biw=768&bih=922#imgrc=T-qPEiFhFp32BM They actually looks like a Land Rover! They have been copying cars for ages! Why doesnt anyone do anything!

      • I think you’ll find someone is, Mr Trump.
        Part of his trade-war with China is that IS companies seeking to manufacture over there are forced to share their technology with Chinese companies first.
        Been going on for decades.

      • Cam, I think (and I may be mistaken) that a German car manufacturer (either BMW or Audi) did take China to court over the copying of their vehicles. Problem is the only place they could do this is in China, and the Chinese court ruled that the cars ‘look nothing like’ the German OEMs version…. Corrupt from root to stem.

        • Ah right, I didn’t think they would get far in Chinese courts… We need to stop buying Chinese or cut what we do buy so it affects Chinese economy massively then force them to act responsible and stop copying western designs.

          • So much electronics are produced in China it would be interesting to know how much military tech has made is way of there. Copying the external shape of a drone is very simple, but the communication, electronics and sensors on board would be a completely different kettle of fish.
            On the car reference there is a video on youtube of them crashing a range rover and its Chinese copy in a test. Its srary how they put so much detail into the visible elements but underneath its pure junk.

          • I now work in the defence manufacturing industry specifically around steel, and the shite they pump out, certified as compliant is scary. Needless to say we don’t entertain it in the slightest.

          • As it’s stands China are good at the aesthetics and ok at the important stuff. However, it won’t be long before they are on par and even exceeding western tech if current progress continues

          • yeah I remember we wrote off Japanese cars saying they’d never compete with the UK cars… Mind you I think our manufacturing is in a better place today.

        • That depends on if they want to make a quick quid, or build quality industry for the long term. Clearly they don’t plan on the latter.

      • many countries have done the same for many years. China is simply doing the sensible thing and therefore saving on costs etc. I mean Russia was doing this for a very long time during the cold war. The UK has surely copied other countries assets at some point.

        The US copied the V1 rocket during the war, it was called the JB-2 Loon. The F-86 Sabre was an evolution of a US copy of the German ME-262…

        China supporting its industry to copy commercial products is one thing, copying military equipment however is just how the world works. It is precisely why the military goes to great lengths to try to avoid advanced assets falling into enemy hands.

    • Copying rather than indigenous research & development will always mean China are behind the curve on new & emerging technologies & platforms.

      However, how far behind the curve remains to be seen! Hopefully still far enough that sheer numbers don’t make up for the reduction in quality and understanding…

      It is comical how similar they are to the reaper… literally no shame!

      • There was the laughable episode when they copied the diverterless supersonic air intake of the F35 and first put it on their J10s. For stealth and weight saving the F35 uses the diverterless air intake to do two jobs shield the face of the engine’s compressor and slowing down the intake air when its at supersonic speeds.
        The design is rather ingenious as it has no moving parts and is a massive weight saving over previous designs that used movable cones or ramps. The original J10 had an intake fashioned on the F16 and Typhoon. This has a large boundary air splitter plate in front of the intake. The plate is designed to prevent the boundary air from below the fuselage going in to the engine. However, it has one major drawback, in that it generates a very generous radar reflection.
        The Chinese copied the F35’s intake, but clearly got the sizing or the shape wrong, as its max speed dropped from Mach 1.8 to 1.2. They eventually figured it out and now the intake is used on all their new fighter aircraft.

        • Industrial espionage has been going on since the first set of blueprints were made.
          At that time, it would have taken longer with added risk, to get them to their intended recipients.
          It was also common knowledge amongst military departments/industrialists, that there was often two set of plans, one of which was deliberately flawed and maybe kept less secure.
          I don’t know if it’s any easier to obtain military equipment plans today, but it would certainly be quicker and far safer to send them to their intended recipients.
          I suppose we should look out for an Albanian 6th Gen Stealth Fighter, with its wings on back-to-front, to know if they still add flaws to plans.

        • I can’t remember if the article was on UKDJ or somewhere else, but it discussed the issues Russia has had with China reverse engineering their tech. IE SU27. But when it came to complex systems like jet engines they where not able to do it. So it makes you wonder how much of the tech do they understand the fundamentals of if they can’t just copy like for like.

    • I guess if they came up with something radically different, people (Chinese) would question it. I guess the US built kit will always be something of a benchmark or point of reference

    • Oh I agree, that said, next week the Chinese are going to unveil their latest miltary equipmen and rumour has it they have a supersonic UAV to show off.
      Google:
      China unveils supersonic spy drone during National Day military parade rehearsal

      Oh reagrds those Chinese drones. Jordan is selling hers off and iraq has only 1 working out of 10 purchased, Algeria looked at them and went elsewhere. Nigeria, UAE and Eygpt have all had issues with their ‘Made in China ‘purchases. The old adage that buying cheap means buying twice appears to be still extant.

      Kind of explains why 4 of my watches are Chris Ward (Made in Switzerland) and the one I use for mountain biking is a Japanese Sekio divers watch.

        • If its highly supersonic yes. If it operates at very high altitudes and speeds it can be effectively invulnerable. Most SAM’s or fighter missiles can’t operate at the height required, and even if they can the geometry and timing required to get a successful shot is ridiculously hard. The SR-71 fitted this role.

    • Its not just military, its every aspect of research we do in The West, my missus works in cancer research and going back many years they got a briefing about ‘industrial espionage’ from Chinese students. Its been relaxed now but 20 odd years ago they had to be married to study abroad and their other half had to stay in China.

      Saying that, I’ve bought some cheap camping/walking gear from China, we’re all part of the problem of them flogging cheap gear.

    • Not just the chinese… Years ago my employers (uk) got involved in a Norwegian industrial espionage court case where some of its confidential records were found in an investigation into an ‘information gatherer’ contracted by a significant German steel producer… Turned out costs and expenses for third party ‘information gathering’ was tax deductible in Germany!!! ?

    • The Chinese don’t see anything wrong with stealing or copying other people’s ideas, inventions, ect. It’s just part of their culture.

    • Yes, China has invented many things since gunpowder…

      – Kung Po chicken
      – Sezuan Chicken
      – Sweet & Sour chicken
      – Chow mein
      – Prawn crackers

      Goddamnit, now I’m hungry!

    • So is this the final offering from the BAE/Rheinemetall team? They are presenting an amalgamation of some of the optics from the Ajax and a new turret with the smoothbore L55 gun.
      I’m still not certain if this is the best way to go i.e. upgrading the Chally or designing a new clean sheet MBT?

      • There is no money for a new clean sheet mbt although it can’t be long before Reinmettal push for a new European programme. I would rather we spent the money updating the optics/electronics/aps and drive train.
        The 120mm rifled gun can still take out any tank on earth so don’t see the big benefit off adopting the smooth bore if the the cost us huge and performance marginal if we can upgrade the rest on more tanks for the same cost.

        • The issue I have is the limited numbers being talked about upgrading, will it be value for money or actually make an effective force? What will they do with the remaining Chally 2s? There simply won’t be enough tanks to have forward deployed in Europe, on exercise in the UK or Canada, there’s hardly enough as it is. Perhaps they will have the upgraded ones in Europe and the remaining held as training tanks. But then you will have two distinctly different models which will negate any technical training.
          I appreciate that there is serious lack of cash available, especially as the replacements for big program hardware has come all at the same time, for example Chally2, AS90 and FV432 introduction of Ajax, Boxer and LandCeptor. The past Governments have either cancelled or pushed programs to the right. Which means they all now overlapping and require replacing at the same time – priceless planning!
          We have had the discussion on the Chally before. My thoughts were the same with the L30, it can still technically defeat most tanks fielded (until proven otherwise!). Perhaps the T14 being the exception, but then its tracks are still susceptible to a mobility kill. If we still had the Royal Ordanance factories, perhaps the L30’s ammunition would still be in development? The L31 HESH round is still devastating, but hasn’t changed for at least 30 years. With today’s fusing and data-link technology, surely it could be made like the US XM1069 advanced multi-purpose round. I think I remember hearing that HESH is good on tanks that use ERA. Due the slow velocity of the round when it impacts, where sometimes it wont activate the ERA. But as some ERA is bolted to the hull, the shockwave when it detonates can still cause internal damage.
          My personal thoughts for the Chally 2 upgrade would be sensors and defence as priority. Independent thermal sights for gunner and commander, better resolution optics 360 degree digital cameras. The other main system I’d add is IMI’s Iron Fist active protective system. This will give the tank both better protection and increased situational awareness.
          If there’s any cash left, I’d look at developing a multi-purpose HESH round.

          • Yes. Seems sensible to upgrade and look more long term to see how viable a next MBT will be. My choice would join in with USA. Given this intent to go 8 wheel… how viable is it to waste money on MBTs?

          • There is a catch 22 problem with 8×8 vehicles, how much armour do you give them. Too much and they can’t be air transported and their mobility suffers, too little and they become ineffective at protecting the troops inside against armour piercing small arms or shell splinters. The standard Boxer weighs about 24 tons, but with the combat armour package is over 34 tons.
            I am a firm believer in active protection systems. This gives a vehicle an effective additional layer of armour for very little additional weight, but it can’t stop everything like multiple armour piercing auto-cannon rounds or a tank’s sabot rounds (deflect possibly!). There will be that occasion where you either run out of kill effectors, or its damaged by artillery fire, which leaves you open to attack. Therefore, you will always need armour.
            The MBT brings a lot to the table. It is a highly mobile yet protected artillery system that is both defensive as well as offensive. But more importantly it has battlefield resilience, which means it can take damage and yet still operate. A 8×8 vehicle is generally designed to protect against 14.7mm all round, with additional protection to the front. The Boxer is reputed to provide protection against 30mm rounds on the front. Conversely you may get a mobility kill from a 30mm round on a Challenger, but it is still effective, whilst a 30mm round to the side of a Boxer may kill it.
            There are numerous accounts of how much damage a Challenger could take when operating in Iraq and yet the fitters returned them to service generally within 24 hours. There’s the famous account of the Scot Grey’s Challenger loosing a track whilst being ambushed. The account is quite harrowing as all the optics were shot out, due to constant machine gun fire, so the crew was effectively blind and trapped within the tank. They had multiple RPGs fired at them as well a Milan, yet they survived without harm (perhaps a little deaf!) and the tank after recovery was returned for action the next day. I can categorically state that an 8×8 vehicles would not have survived that ambush.
            The tank also brings another factor to the table, its sheer presence. It has a massive physiological impact on not just your troops, but the enemy more so. To have instantly available artillery to hand is an awesome morale boost and was sorely missed in Afghan. But to the enemy, a tank focuses the mind to the extent, that they generally forget about the poor foot sloggers flanking them.
            The MBT requirement has not gone away, if anything its requirement is needed now more than ever.

          • Thank you. Yes. All true.

            But to what extent are we going to go toe to toe with peer heavy armour? Mainland Europe (NATO) have hundreds of MBTs … at best we have a few. Our contribution can be naval and air power in association with marines/paratroops in Norway (?).
            How quickly would we get our armour to where it’s needed. How quickly even against an inferior enemy would we move tracked infantry vehicles?
            In insurgency scenarios we need mine resistant vehicles.

            Certainly our wider policy seems confused. Procuring these Ajax tracked vehicles and then coming down on this ‘Striker’ philosophy. I say the words ‘policy’ and ‘philosophy’ advisedly since we have no discernable core ‘strategy’ at all.

            If our policy is to properly invest in an expeditionary … ahem … strategy, then we should we should roll out 8-wheeled vehicles and associated mobile artillery and put heavy armour in storage (keep an experimental unit for training). As I have said, work with the USA to develop how MBTs are going to go).

            This puts Ajax in limbo… Maybe keep a mechanized brigade with a small tank component. But what it’s point would be is moot… Its use in penny packets in an insurgency may possibly be viable.

            In grand strategy term however it strikes me (no pun intended) the die was cast when Labour commissioned 2 aircraft carriers. We unsteadily moved to being a naval and air power led military.

          • I sort of agree, our main focus should be naval and air power. But as Churchill once said: “This Island Nation cannot stand idly by, using other Nations as its shield”. We must be prepared to take the fight to the enemy either at sea, in the air or on land. We should also include space and cyber in this as well, as all have an equal part to play in today’s warfare.

            The Strike brigade concept is worthwhile and does work, to a point. However, it must be all of the same type of vehicle i.e wheeled and centred on the Boxer. It must also be a fully self contained and supported brigade. The US have done this with their Stryker brigades, although they don’t have a decent artillery or SHORAD system as part of the brigade. Hopefully we will get a mobile artillery and SHORAD based on the Boxer chassis.

            The problem with strike brigades using a 8×8 vehicle is that when the weather turns the ground to muck, they struggle and are generally restricted to roads. I know this to be true after witnessing a US strike brigade becoming stuck fast for a couple of days in Iraq due to heavy persistent rain. The Stryker’s issues were that they had been so up-armoured their weight caused the wheels to sink and made them grounded. Admittedly the Bradleys were also suffering due to all the extra armour, but they could still move about and pulled the Strykers out on to firmer ground.

            Within NATO, Poland has the most tanks in Europe (the US has more, but they’re spread all over the World). The Polish tanks are mostly derivatives of the T72, some have been modernised, but most still have technology dating back to the late 80’s. Germany, once a bastion of Leopard 2s has sold a lot to neighbouring countries and these are mostly 2a5s not the latest 2a7s. The French have the Leclerc, which is similar to the 2a5, slightly faster, smaller but not as armoured as a 2a7 or a Challenger. So the main bulk of NATO’s tanks are now quite old and perhaps no longer on par with a T90 let alone the T14. The UK has decided to keep some of its armour pre-positioned in Germany where every man and his dog knows the location off. So if anything did kick off with Russia, it would be a prime cruise missile target.
            I believe the way we should be looking at the Challenger, Ajax and the armoured brigade is not as the expedition brigade, but as the reserve armoured fist. So hopefully if things did kick off, the Strike brigade would rush off and try to hold the line. The Armoured brigade would then be sent over as the reserve to initially bolster the defences then go on the offensive.

            So to my mind we need a balanced approach to land warfare of both a Strike Brigade used initially for expeditions with a heavy armoured brigade for back up. However, the numbers have to be realistic to make a difference. The current numbers of just over 200 Challengers is still too small. There must be enough for training, active units and war spares. The Strike brigade must be wholly wheeled and centred on the Boxer chassis. It must be fully self contained in structure and support, so the whole Brigade can deploy without waiting for outside agencies.

          • Yes. All true. I don’t really do not see where our strategy fits in with heavy armour. We do need quality heavy artillery with the striker concept. Our strength beyond that is parachute and marines and associated special forces. The purchase of Ajax as left us standing on one leg. or as Lincoln said, stuck half way across a fence.

  5. Looking at all the negative comments about the PRC (People’s Republic of China), I am reminded of how much History is repeating itself. Less than a century ago, the same type of comments were being made about another Asian power, Imperial Japan.

    I would imagine sometme in the 22nd century, there will be another rising World Power. No doubt, the same type of disparaging remarks will be made about them with China held up as a benchmark much like Japan is today.

    • Not really the same though, is it? Japan took ideas and inspiration and made stuff more efficiently, but they did refine and innovate as well, often putting a new spin on stuff.
      China is wholesale stealing anything not nailed down, with the sole purpose of disrupting the world economy for its own benefit. Look at solar power as an example, or even the military equipment being discussed here. It’s blatant theft and the copies they’re making are generally inferior, with little desire to improve.
      Also, Japan wanted to be PART of the world economy, whereas China has clear aims to dominate it. I’d say there were fundamental differences between them.

    • As Hetzer says, Japan were through their own desire to develop, pioneers in manufacturing techniques – developing Kaizan and 5S methodologies that have in turn benefited the global manufacturing economy.

      China are at present, are not heading on a similar trajectory.

      • If you read any of the propaganda and sentiment from the pre-WW2 era, and even after after it would be in the same accusatory tone of how Japanese products were cheap knockoffs, the Zero fighters were a copy of an American design , the Japanese couldn’t do anything worthwhile, etc. Much like all the comments about the PRC today. You also forget that Japan in the early 20th Century is much like the China of today. They were a World power, they were posturing against the USA and other Western Colonial powers in the Far East. They too took a part of China much like the Europeans and Americans were doing.
        Are the Chinese copying technical innovations? Are they reverse engineering military equipment? If they are, so what? Do you realise the amount of knowledge and understanding required to do that and then reproduce it to a point it is as good or better than the original?
        Don’t forget, the PRC is about a century behind the Japanese in their Industrial build up. It is a learning curve for them, and they are trying to catch up with the West and Japan as fast as they can.

        • As I said, at present not heading on a similar trajectory. Once you delve into the Chinese reverse engineering you can quickly see they do actually lack the knowledge in some key areas to fully grasp what they are doing. I’m no Japanese colonial expert but surely Japan at the turn of the 20th century and heading towards the war were only a regional power and not a world power? The only military action they took ‘globally’ was Pearl Harbor. The rest of their was indo-pacific was it not?

          • They did sail a sub to France though! This was to drop off a team to evaluate the Tiger tank and Fw190. They bought one Tiger (which never left Europe), along with plans etc, hoping to build them in Japan. They bought a BMW 801 radial engine along with the plans and shipped it back to Japan to further their engine development. Not sure what happened with the plans to build the Tiger though as clearly it didn’t go into production?

  6. Read up about cold war espionage and you will see the west including the UK and the US were regularly stealing tech from Russia and vice versa. Additionally there was the scandle where we were bugging other trade delegations, to effectively steal ideas. Yes China does it more opennly but it’s not really balanced to just point fingers when our own government is doing the same all the time. Plus there are many court cases on industrial espionage happening in the west and so it’s not limited to governments. Not to mention that the patent system is a bit biased towards US tech firms, as is the us competition laws, making it hard for foreign companies to compete on the same level

  7. Presumably now it’s clear Russian funded orthodox Christian Serbia is, despite being warned not to, moving back towards orthodox Christian Russia. And the fact that it is buying Russian tanks and other items, we will now do as we should have done in the first place and ensure it gets no western weapons.

      • I think Russ is just saying that the EU asked Serbia to align its foreign policy to theirs. If they don’t then it is highly unlikely to be admitted to the EU. Serbia is a Russian ally so I don’t understand why they want to be in the EU anyway. Unless of course Russia and the EU can sort out their differences, but I won’t hold my breath.

        • Serbia will do what’s in it’s best interests, to me the EU is not it. The EU and Russia will sort out their differences if Germany and France push for it, but it will take a few generations before the likes of Poland, the Baltic states etc can put the past behind them but that is to be expected

          • One or two big problem with that Ulya Russia is still in the Ukraine and Russia is still seen as a mafia state under Putin by most EU political powers, Russia has no political credibility under Putin, especially with its failed use of the GRU in Salisbury and then caught red handed hacking the OPCW HQ by the dutch and uk intel agency’s. Russia can keep Serbia after the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo by the serbs in which Russia supported, who in the west really cares either way.

          • Good morning Dave, thank you for the option to keep Serbia, very generous of you, but maybe we let Serbians decide. How the EU and Russia proceed in the future is no longer your concern, Germany and France will decide, the UK has made its choice and no longer politically relevant. True, we do have ‘advisers’ in Donbass, that will not change until a political solution is found, maybe we can use the Kosovo model ?. Crimea is Russian, end of negotiations.
            As you like to bring up Salisbury now and then, what has happened with that? I don’t bother with UK news anymore, reminds me of Sputnik, RT and Vesti, and I think we can both agree on their quality, has any legal case been made? Trail by absentia perhaps? Or we still on accusations and highly likely? As I have mentioned before, I’m all in favour of Russians being punished if they are guilty, and will happily tell you I no longer support Putin if it’s government sanctioned, I just don’t believe in guilty until proven innocent. Anyway, I look forward to your reply with the usual cliches, enjoy your morning.

          • Mate, seriously.
            There are two arrest warrants outstanding for GRU members Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov, over the attack. These are international warrants and have been served to Russia for the extradition of these men, Russia declined, why?

          • Hi Davey, yes I remember the warrants, but Russia does not extradite it’s people, we are not an exception in this and your government would of known this, that was why I asked about trial by or in absentia (I hope that’s right term)

          • I suspect, as with everything these days, there is no trial in absentia for diplomatic reasons, i.e. the UK government doesn’t fancy a fist fight with the Russians. In my mind it’s about time we stood up to them.

            Have a look at how the Scotland Yard police officers who went to Russia to interview a suspect in the Alexander Litvinenko murder were handled by the Russians.

          • I agree Crimea is now Russian, there’s no way it’s going to change. However, taking it by force cannot be seen as an acceptable action in 21st Century.

          • UK ,EU relations despite brexit will not change that much on Russia considering France and Germany are part of NATO ,you sort of missed that large factor there Ulya 🙂 ,so ye its very much the west concern hence I mentioned dutch and uk intel agency who worked together to catch the GRU red handed trying to hack the OPCW HQ, nice try though with the divide strategy again Ulya you are a good Putin girl.
            As for salisbury the evidence is very clear and obvious, to defend Russia in this you have to be mentally ill or just Russian, there is no point having a joint investigation with Russia when the GRU are involved ,it being a Russian government agency.
            lol yes well comparing the BBC to RT is a bit silly Ulya and shows how far from reality Putin supporters are. P.S my comments are not cliches if they are true ,enjoy your evening .

          • Good morning Dave, no, I didn’t forget NATO, but that was not the topic, it was our relationship with the EU, NATO does not concern me, a few thousand troops and a few plane near our border, so what?, good for politicians and media to make a point and that’s about it. The UK will still have a voice in NATO matters, not EU. As far as the EU goes, Germany and France are the core powers, the rest will make noise but fall in line, or not, I don’t actually care, I transferred to my company German department 6 weeks ago and this has become very obvious.
            You will have to remind me of OPCW issue, that was where they got arrested but released with no charge short time later? Why released if crime was committed? Back to Salisbury, you obviously trust your government and media, well done, I don’t. I remember Borris and TM blaming Russia on day 2 or 3 while investigating only just start, I remember reading stories in your media that made more questions than answers for me so I will say this once again, if you have enough evidence then take it to court and prove it, try those men in absentia, win your moral victory even if they will never go to UK prison, it will still do damage to government with Russian people, until then what do you expect me to believe? This has nothing to do with voting for Putin or not, it’s just basic legal proceedings of innocent until proven guilty.
            Media, I have a low opinion of both Russia media and your media, what you choose to believe is up to you

          • You are missing the point on salisbury probably on purpose, the two GRU agents are suspects that means they took orders from high up the chain of command that means the Russian government is involved and the Russian government will we not help in the investigation unless its a joint investigation which the UK government will not allow for obvious reasons one being the Russian government is also the suspect behind salisbury incident. As for the evidence its all out there ,the GRU agents caught on CCTV a five min walk away from the skirpals house , and you really think they came all the way from Russia for a day trip to see the salisbury cathedral lol come on Ulya , their Identity has even been exposed so I think you have selective memory and ignorance to the facts on purpose.
            As for the the hacking of the OPCW the GRU where caught , filmed in the act the ,equipment logged ,and taken away and they where sent home. As i said its all very clear and this has been in all the worlds media. I do not expect you to agree,growing up in the Putin era Russia clearly has affects on the Russian take on the world and the Russian government denial policy may work at home but not in the west, its just laughable, maybe one day when Putin dies of old age will Russia develop into a nation that means well and has credit ability.

          • Hi Dave,
            OPCW, so there is all this evidence and equipment and then you let them go home? that was silly wasn’t it, what a wasted opportunity.
            Salisbury, yes, I remember the photos, very clear and obvious for men on a secret mission, they really should of been more careful.
            Clearly you and I are never going to agree, I want a day in court to see all your evidence and to cross examine, you dont, so let’s try a different line of question, you have all this evidence of men committing a crime, so what are you going to do with it? Obviously Russia does not extradite people and your government is not doing anything useful with it, so what now?
            Having the UK angry at us is irrelevant. It hasn’t stopped your European friends from diplomatic relations or trade, they are only worried about secondary US sanctions but we are working around that (that’s my job), from what I’ve seen they don’t even care much about the Ukraine situation anymore.
            So what are your options now? What do you want to achieve?

          • I agree it was very weak to let the GRU agents go but the plot was foiled and the question is why Russia felt the need to obtain information from the OPCW who were testing the novichoks samples ,theirs a bit of link to Salisbury there Ulya, but plead ignorance if you must, it seems to work for Putin and his fans.
            US and EU are still giving a lot of military aid to the Ukraine
            so I dont know why you think otherwise , wishful thinking maybe it seems to be a trait of yours.
            On US sanctions I think when trumps goes (Putins useful idiot)you will find sanctions on Russia will get a lot harder, but that could be me being a wishful thinker, but Russia has no friends in the US democratic party.What do I hope the west to achieve with Russia?
            well, firstly increase the fight against Russias misinformation campaign which I’m sure you are part of , and also contain Russias and its reach till some russian leader comes a long with good intensions and not this ,us against them nationalism , its all so very boring this nationalism ideals with dictatorships we have seen it all before ,its just boooorrrring.

          • Hi Dave, believe it or not my questions about Salisbury etc are genuine, all this happened some time ago now, I understand it is very important to you, in Russia, not so much, Ukraine, INF treaty, Syria, Iran, all important to us, accusations from the UK, well, no. I lost interest after about a month or 6 weeks so I was genuinely interested to understand your point of view.
            Ukraine, the US is giving a lot of military aid, well spending a lot of money anyway, the major European countries are making a weak token effort, but nothing that will change the balance, it’s still a stalemate and a political solution is still the only option so no wishful thinking needed.
            Sanctions, yes more, more secondary sanctions as well please. I love how trump treats his friends, if Russia helped get him elected then good job to us.
            I find it funny how you think I’m part of a misinformation campaign, you do understand this whole conversation was started by you? Look back, I made 1 comment to Russ, almost everything else has been replying to you, if you don’t want to be “influenced” by the evil red, don’t talk to me, it’s that easy, I’m still going to read this site.
            You comment about nationalism is just to funny, thank you

          • Dam right I will comment and reply to you Ulya ,you are a supporter of Putin after all, so your views must be argued.

          • Thank you for your concern Ulya but I’m a fit young man ,my blood pressure is fine and I would not say I get worked up, call it righteous passion.

          • Hello Steve and Rob, forgive me if English bad, lunch drinks get out of hand and I am not good drinker, Steve, I agree on Crimea, way it come back was wrong, but most Crimean wanted this and coup forced governments hand I think, I am just glad it was bloodless.
            Rob, Russia mindset needs to change, west mindset needs to change, to many old guard holding on to old ways, I am 26, not grow up in USSR, just mess they leave behind, I am not anti west, I have been to many western countries, have west friends and my partner Spanish, I try to understand your way of seeing world, I try to be honest and show my way of seeing world, god willing we find middle ground one day

          • Your English is fine, a lot better than my Russian!

            Too many egos in power across the world for any real change, at least not quickly. Also too many men. I’m not saying women would be pushovers, but they might be more inclined to listen and act without all the grandstanding.

          • Another point Ulay Russia celebrates the defeat of the Nazi’s every year in a war that lasted 6 years ,the Baltic states where occupied by the kremlin for over 50 years, what makes you think they will forget the past so easily ,you are living in a putin dream world lol!!

          • Hello again Dave, I did say it will take a few generations as to be expected. As some point people have to let go of past wrongs, it’s like me disliking all Germans now for what happened then, why? They had nothing to do with it and all I have meet seem very nice, we have talked about it, we remember our loses but a 26 year old German is not responsible for Hitler than I am for Stalin’s actions. We can’t change our counties history, just learn

          • Hi Ulya, I agree with your logic but unfortunately people are a very tribal bunch and like to have a ‘them’ and ‘us’. ‘Us’ are always the goodies and ‘them’ are the baddies. Its a simple way to look at things and appeals to our sense of self. Its easily manipulated too unfortunately.

            Until we evolve as a species I can’t see it changing.

          • I’m an optimist Andy, or stupid, you decide. One day we must learn to take time to understand each other’s point of view or continue to make the same mistakes. History is against me in this I know

          • I doubt you’re stupid and there’s nothing wrong with being optimistic. At the risk of patronising, age plays a part, I see myself as a ‘cautious optimist’, I hope for the best but prepare for it not happening. As you get older you do tend to become more cynical as you see the same patterns happening over and over again. This plays nicely into the ‘pick a side’ logic, it can become easier just picking a side than trying to see both. It’s really quite saddening. Right, I’m away to sort out my Chi by climbing some hills….

    • Serbia is not a EU colony and is no required to “align” anything. As for Serbia’s overtures to Europe? They want in so they can veto anything regarding Kosovo for all time.

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