Serbia is getting nine Wing Loong unmanned air vehicles from China, local media has reported.
The drones will be delivered within the next six months and there is a possibility of a follow-on order for 15 more.
Based on official marketing material released by CADI, the Pterodactyl can carry the BA-7 air-to-ground missile, YZ-212 laser-guided bomb, YZ-102A anti-personnel bomb and 50-kilogram LS-6 miniature guided bomb.
Since 2011, China has also sold the Wing Loong to several countries in Africa and the Middle East, including Nigeria, Egypt, and the United Arab Emirates, at an estimated $1 million per unit.
In March 2017, the Egyptian Air Force launched a number of airstrikes in North Sinai’s cities of El Arish, Rafah, and Sheikh Zuweid, as part of the operations conducted by the Egyptian Armed Forces against militants. Most of the strikes, which targeted stationing points and moving vehicles, were carried out by Wing Loong UCAVs leaving 18 militants killed.
In April 2019 the military media of Yemeni movement Ansar Allah published video for downing Wing Loong UCAV acting for Saudi-led intervention over Saada district and in August 2019 Libyan GNA forces announced the shoot down of a Wing Loong drone.
Oh look, a Reaper. Another example of Chinese copying? No wonder the US keep their new aircraft under wraps for as long as possible.
It infuriates me how china gets away with the mass copying and stealing of western gear! Even their new ships look like knock off copys! And jets are a mix of western jets! And what about their millitary lorry’s they look exactly the same as german well one version does! And what about the exact copy of land rovers or “LAND WIND” as they call them! https://www.google.com/search?q=land+rover+knock+off+china&safe=strict&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&prmd=sinv&sxsrf=ACYBGNRmr0Dl8grcGu_rzu6baDwHDR3sXA:1569412228951&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZq6aT9OvkAhXJUBUIHe9kCKoQ_AUoAnoECA4QAg&biw=768&bih=922#imgrc=T-qPEiFhFp32BM They actually looks like a Land Rover! They have been copying cars for ages! Why doesnt anyone do anything!
I think you’ll find someone is, Mr Trump.
Part of his trade-war with China is that IS companies seeking to manufacture over there are forced to share their technology with Chinese companies first.
Been going on for decades.
Cam, I think (and I may be mistaken) that a German car manufacturer (either BMW or Audi) did take China to court over the copying of their vehicles. Problem is the only place they could do this is in China, and the Chinese court ruled that the cars ‘look nothing like’ the German OEMs version…. Corrupt from root to stem.
Ah right, I didn’t think they would get far in Chinese courts… We need to stop buying Chinese or cut what we do buy so it affects Chinese economy massively then force them to act responsible and stop copying western designs.
So much electronics are produced in China it would be interesting to know how much military tech has made is way of there. Copying the external shape of a drone is very simple, but the communication, electronics and sensors on board would be a completely different kettle of fish.
On the car reference there is a video on youtube of them crashing a range rover and its Chinese copy in a test. Its srary how they put so much detail into the visible elements but underneath its pure junk.
I now work in the defence manufacturing industry specifically around steel, and the shite they pump out, certified as compliant is scary. Needless to say we don’t entertain it in the slightest.
As it’s stands China are good at the aesthetics and ok at the important stuff. However, it won’t be long before they are on par and even exceeding western tech if current progress continues
yeah I remember we wrote off Japanese cars saying they’d never compete with the UK cars… Mind you I think our manufacturing is in a better place today.
Wouldn’t you do the same in their position?
That depends on if they want to make a quick quid, or build quality industry for the long term. Clearly they don’t plan on the latter.
many countries have done the same for many years. China is simply doing the sensible thing and therefore saving on costs etc. I mean Russia was doing this for a very long time during the cold war. The UK has surely copied other countries assets at some point. The US copied the V1 rocket during the war, it was called the JB-2 Loon. The F-86 Sabre was an evolution of a US copy of the German ME-262… China supporting its industry to copy commercial products is one thing, copying military equipment however is just how the world works. It is… Read more »
Copying rather than indigenous research & development will always mean China are behind the curve on new & emerging technologies & platforms.
However, how far behind the curve remains to be seen! Hopefully still far enough that sheer numbers don’t make up for the reduction in quality and understanding…
It is comical how similar they are to the reaper… literally no shame!
“Innovate, not imitate”. But by copying they don’t incur as much in R&D costs I guess?
M@
Plenty of evidence of crashed examples getting spirited to China.
Much cheaper to buy a downed wreck for millions than it is to spend hundreds of million on R&D…
Hmmm. Comes with acting as the world’s policeman I guess. Your assets range far and wide. On some occasions the forces destroy them first, like our Predator in Helmand?
Never innovative, always follow on with something better. I can’t remember which British admiral said that.
There was the laughable episode when they copied the diverterless supersonic air intake of the F35 and first put it on their J10s. For stealth and weight saving the F35 uses the diverterless air intake to do two jobs shield the face of the engine’s compressor and slowing down the intake air when its at supersonic speeds. The design is rather ingenious as it has no moving parts and is a massive weight saving over previous designs that used movable cones or ramps. The original J10 had an intake fashioned on the F16 and Typhoon. This has a large boundary… Read more »
Industrial espionage has been going on since the first set of blueprints were made. At that time, it would have taken longer with added risk, to get them to their intended recipients. It was also common knowledge amongst military departments/industrialists, that there was often two set of plans, one of which was deliberately flawed and maybe kept less secure. I don’t know if it’s any easier to obtain military equipment plans today, but it would certainly be quicker and far safer to send them to their intended recipients. I suppose we should look out for an Albanian 6th Gen Stealth… Read more »
I can’t remember if the article was on UKDJ or somewhere else, but it discussed the issues Russia has had with China reverse engineering their tech. IE SU27. But when it came to complex systems like jet engines they where not able to do it. So it makes you wonder how much of the tech do they understand the fundamentals of if they can’t just copy like for like.
The Bruce-Partington Plans…
I guess if they came up with something radically different, people (Chinese) would question it. I guess the US built kit will always be something of a benchmark or point of reference
Oh I agree, that said, next week the Chinese are going to unveil their latest miltary equipmen and rumour has it they have a supersonic UAV to show off. Google: China unveils supersonic spy drone during National Day military parade rehearsal Oh reagrds those Chinese drones. Jordan is selling hers off and iraq has only 1 working out of 10 purchased, Algeria looked at them and went elsewhere. Nigeria, UAE and Eygpt have all had issues with their ‘Made in China ‘purchases. The old adage that buying cheap means buying twice appears to be still extant. Kind of explains why… Read more »
Is there a point to a supersonic drone?
If its highly supersonic yes. If it operates at very high altitudes and speeds it can be effectively invulnerable. Most SAM’s or fighter missiles can’t operate at the height required, and even if they can the geometry and timing required to get a successful shot is ridiculously hard. The SR-71 fitted this role.
Erm didn’t one get shot down?
Its not just military, its every aspect of research we do in The West, my missus works in cancer research and going back many years they got a briefing about ‘industrial espionage’ from Chinese students. Its been relaxed now but 20 odd years ago they had to be married to study abroad and their other half had to stay in China.
Saying that, I’ve bought some cheap camping/walking gear from China, we’re all part of the problem of them flogging cheap gear.
Not just the chinese… Years ago my employers (uk) got involved in a Norwegian industrial espionage court case where some of its confidential records were found in an investigation into an ‘information gatherer’ contracted by a significant German steel producer… Turned out costs and expenses for third party ‘information gathering’ was tax deductible in Germany!!! ?
The Chinese don’t see anything wrong with stealing or copying other people’s ideas, inventions, ect. It’s just part of their culture.
Have the Chinese ever created anything on their own since inventing gun powder? lol
Yes, China has invented many things since gunpowder…
– Kung Po chicken
– Sezuan Chicken
– Sweet & Sour chicken
– Chow mein
– Prawn crackers
Goddamnit, now I’m hungry!
Serbia, EU candidate country ????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=22&v=8IKDg5U-t9w
So is this the final offering from the BAE/Rheinemetall team? They are presenting an amalgamation of some of the optics from the Ajax and a new turret with the smoothbore L55 gun.
I’m still not certain if this is the best way to go i.e. upgrading the Chally or designing a new clean sheet MBT?
There is no money for a new clean sheet mbt although it can’t be long before Reinmettal push for a new European programme. I would rather we spent the money updating the optics/electronics/aps and drive train.
The 120mm rifled gun can still take out any tank on earth so don’t see the big benefit off adopting the smooth bore if the the cost us huge and performance marginal if we can upgrade the rest on more tanks for the same cost.
The issue I have is the limited numbers being talked about upgrading, will it be value for money or actually make an effective force? What will they do with the remaining Chally 2s? There simply won’t be enough tanks to have forward deployed in Europe, on exercise in the UK or Canada, there’s hardly enough as it is. Perhaps they will have the upgraded ones in Europe and the remaining held as training tanks. But then you will have two distinctly different models which will negate any technical training. I appreciate that there is serious lack of cash available, especially… Read more »
Yes. Seems sensible to upgrade and look more long term to see how viable a next MBT will be. My choice would join in with USA. Given this intent to go 8 wheel… how viable is it to waste money on MBTs?
There is a catch 22 problem with 8×8 vehicles, how much armour do you give them. Too much and they can’t be air transported and their mobility suffers, too little and they become ineffective at protecting the troops inside against armour piercing small arms or shell splinters. The standard Boxer weighs about 24 tons, but with the combat armour package is over 34 tons. I am a firm believer in active protection systems. This gives a vehicle an effective additional layer of armour for very little additional weight, but it can’t stop everything like multiple armour piercing auto-cannon rounds or… Read more »
Thank you. Yes. All true. But to what extent are we going to go toe to toe with peer heavy armour? Mainland Europe (NATO) have hundreds of MBTs … at best we have a few. Our contribution can be naval and air power in association with marines/paratroops in Norway (?). How quickly would we get our armour to where it’s needed. How quickly even against an inferior enemy would we move tracked infantry vehicles? In insurgency scenarios we need mine resistant vehicles. Certainly our wider policy seems confused. Procuring these Ajax tracked vehicles and then coming down on this ‘Striker’… Read more »
PS… It’s a pity it’s so difficult to space out paragraphs on this website.
Cheers.
I sort of agree, our main focus should be naval and air power. But as Churchill once said: “This Island Nation cannot stand idly by, using other Nations as its shield”. We must be prepared to take the fight to the enemy either at sea, in the air or on land. We should also include space and cyber in this as well, as all have an equal part to play in today’s warfare. The Strike brigade concept is worthwhile and does work, to a point. However, it must be all of the same type of vehicle i.e wheeled and centred… Read more »
Yes. All true. I don’t really do not see where our strategy fits in with heavy armour. We do need quality heavy artillery with the striker concept. Our strength beyond that is parachute and marines and associated special forces. The purchase of Ajax as left us standing on one leg. or as Lincoln said, stuck half way across a fence.
Looking at all the negative comments about the PRC (People’s Republic of China), I am reminded of how much History is repeating itself. Less than a century ago, the same type of comments were being made about another Asian power, Imperial Japan.
I would imagine sometme in the 22nd century, there will be another rising World Power. No doubt, the same type of disparaging remarks will be made about them with China held up as a benchmark much like Japan is today.
Not really the same though, is it? Japan took ideas and inspiration and made stuff more efficiently, but they did refine and innovate as well, often putting a new spin on stuff. China is wholesale stealing anything not nailed down, with the sole purpose of disrupting the world economy for its own benefit. Look at solar power as an example, or even the military equipment being discussed here. It’s blatant theft and the copies they’re making are generally inferior, with little desire to improve. Also, Japan wanted to be PART of the world economy, whereas China has clear aims to… Read more »
As Hetzer says, Japan were through their own desire to develop, pioneers in manufacturing techniques – developing Kaizan and 5S methodologies that have in turn benefited the global manufacturing economy.
China are at present, are not heading on a similar trajectory.
If you read any of the propaganda and sentiment from the pre-WW2 era, and even after after it would be in the same accusatory tone of how Japanese products were cheap knockoffs, the Zero fighters were a copy of an American design , the Japanese couldn’t do anything worthwhile, etc. Much like all the comments about the PRC today. You also forget that Japan in the early 20th Century is much like the China of today. They were a World power, they were posturing against the USA and other Western Colonial powers in the Far East. They too took a… Read more »
As I said, at present not heading on a similar trajectory. Once you delve into the Chinese reverse engineering you can quickly see they do actually lack the knowledge in some key areas to fully grasp what they are doing. I’m no Japanese colonial expert but surely Japan at the turn of the 20th century and heading towards the war were only a regional power and not a world power? The only military action they took ‘globally’ was Pearl Harbor. The rest of their was indo-pacific was it not?
They did sail a sub to France though! This was to drop off a team to evaluate the Tiger tank and Fw190. They bought one Tiger (which never left Europe), along with plans etc, hoping to build them in Japan. They bought a BMW 801 radial engine along with the plans and shipped it back to Japan to further their engine development. Not sure what happened with the plans to build the Tiger though as clearly it didn’t go into production?
Read up about cold war espionage and you will see the west including the UK and the US were regularly stealing tech from Russia and vice versa. Additionally there was the scandle where we were bugging other trade delegations, to effectively steal ideas. Yes China does it more opennly but it’s not really balanced to just point fingers when our own government is doing the same all the time. Plus there are many court cases on industrial espionage happening in the west and so it’s not limited to governments. Not to mention that the patent system is a bit biased… Read more »
Presumably now it’s clear Russian funded orthodox Christian Serbia is, despite being warned not to, moving back towards orthodox Christian Russia. And the fact that it is buying Russian tanks and other items, we will now do as we should have done in the first place and ensure it gets no western weapons.
“despite being warned not to”. Interesting comment Russ
I think Russ is just saying that the EU asked Serbia to align its foreign policy to theirs. If they don’t then it is highly unlikely to be admitted to the EU. Serbia is a Russian ally so I don’t understand why they want to be in the EU anyway. Unless of course Russia and the EU can sort out their differences, but I won’t hold my breath.
Serbia will do what’s in it’s best interests, to me the EU is not it. The EU and Russia will sort out their differences if Germany and France push for it, but it will take a few generations before the likes of Poland, the Baltic states etc can put the past behind them but that is to be expected
One or two big problem with that Ulya Russia is still in the Ukraine and Russia is still seen as a mafia state under Putin by most EU political powers, Russia has no political credibility under Putin, especially with its failed use of the GRU in Salisbury and then caught red handed hacking the OPCW HQ by the dutch and uk intel agency’s. Russia can keep Serbia after the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo by the serbs in which Russia supported, who in the west really cares either way.
Good morning Dave, thank you for the option to keep Serbia, very generous of you, but maybe we let Serbians decide. How the EU and Russia proceed in the future is no longer your concern, Germany and France will decide, the UK has made its choice and no longer politically relevant. True, we do have ‘advisers’ in Donbass, that will not change until a political solution is found, maybe we can use the Kosovo model ?. Crimea is Russian, end of negotiations. As you like to bring up Salisbury now and then, what has happened with that? I don’t bother… Read more »
Mate, seriously.
There are two arrest warrants outstanding for GRU members Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov, over the attack. These are international warrants and have been served to Russia for the extradition of these men, Russia declined, why?
Hi Davey, yes I remember the warrants, but Russia does not extradite it’s people, we are not an exception in this and your government would of known this, that was why I asked about trial by or in absentia (I hope that’s right term)
I suspect, as with everything these days, there is no trial in absentia for diplomatic reasons, i.e. the UK government doesn’t fancy a fist fight with the Russians. In my mind it’s about time we stood up to them.
Have a look at how the Scotland Yard police officers who went to Russia to interview a suspect in the Alexander Litvinenko murder were handled by the Russians.
I agree Crimea is now Russian, there’s no way it’s going to change. However, taking it by force cannot be seen as an acceptable action in 21st Century.
UK ,EU relations despite brexit will not change that much on Russia considering France and Germany are part of NATO ,you sort of missed that large factor there Ulya 🙂 ,so ye its very much the west concern hence I mentioned dutch and uk intel agency who worked together to catch the GRU red handed trying to hack the OPCW HQ, nice try though with the divide strategy again Ulya you are a good Putin girl. As for salisbury the evidence is very clear and obvious, to defend Russia in this you have to be mentally ill or just Russian,… Read more »
Good morning Dave, no, I didn’t forget NATO, but that was not the topic, it was our relationship with the EU, NATO does not concern me, a few thousand troops and a few plane near our border, so what?, good for politicians and media to make a point and that’s about it. The UK will still have a voice in NATO matters, not EU. As far as the EU goes, Germany and France are the core powers, the rest will make noise but fall in line, or not, I don’t actually care, I transferred to my company German department 6… Read more »
You are missing the point on salisbury probably on purpose, the two GRU agents are suspects that means they took orders from high up the chain of command that means the Russian government is involved and the Russian government will we not help in the investigation unless its a joint investigation which the UK government will not allow for obvious reasons one being the Russian government is also the suspect behind salisbury incident. As for the evidence its all out there ,the GRU agents caught on CCTV a five min walk away from the skirpals house , and you really… Read more »
Hi Dave, OPCW, so there is all this evidence and equipment and then you let them go home? that was silly wasn’t it, what a wasted opportunity. Salisbury, yes, I remember the photos, very clear and obvious for men on a secret mission, they really should of been more careful. Clearly you and I are never going to agree, I want a day in court to see all your evidence and to cross examine, you dont, so let’s try a different line of question, you have all this evidence of men committing a crime, so what are you going to… Read more »
I agree it was very weak to let the GRU agents go but the plot was foiled and the question is why Russia felt the need to obtain information from the OPCW who were testing the novichoks samples ,theirs a bit of link to Salisbury there Ulya, but plead ignorance if you must, it seems to work for Putin and his fans. US and EU are still giving a lot of military aid to the Ukraine so I dont know why you think otherwise , wishful thinking maybe it seems to be a trait of yours. On US sanctions I… Read more »
Hi Dave, believe it or not my questions about Salisbury etc are genuine, all this happened some time ago now, I understand it is very important to you, in Russia, not so much, Ukraine, INF treaty, Syria, Iran, all important to us, accusations from the UK, well, no. I lost interest after about a month or 6 weeks so I was genuinely interested to understand your point of view. Ukraine, the US is giving a lot of military aid, well spending a lot of money anyway, the major European countries are making a weak token effort, but nothing that will… Read more »
Dam right I will comment and reply to you Ulya ,you are a supporter of Putin after all, so your views must be argued.
As you wish Dave, just watch your blood pressure, you do seem to get a little worked up
Thank you for your concern Ulya but I’m a fit young man ,my blood pressure is fine and I would not say I get worked up, call it righteous passion.
Correct
Do you not think it will take a big change in mindset on the Russian side too?
Hello Steve and Rob, forgive me if English bad, lunch drinks get out of hand and I am not good drinker, Steve, I agree on Crimea, way it come back was wrong, but most Crimean wanted this and coup forced governments hand I think, I am just glad it was bloodless. Rob, Russia mindset needs to change, west mindset needs to change, to many old guard holding on to old ways, I am 26, not grow up in USSR, just mess they leave behind, I am not anti west, I have been to many western countries, have west friends and… Read more »
Your English is fine, a lot better than my Russian!
Too many egos in power across the world for any real change, at least not quickly. Also too many men. I’m not saying women would be pushovers, but they might be more inclined to listen and act without all the grandstanding.
Another point Ulay Russia celebrates the defeat of the Nazi’s every year in a war that lasted 6 years ,the Baltic states where occupied by the kremlin for over 50 years, what makes you think they will forget the past so easily ,you are living in a putin dream world lol!!
Hello again Dave, I did say it will take a few generations as to be expected. As some point people have to let go of past wrongs, it’s like me disliking all Germans now for what happened then, why? They had nothing to do with it and all I have meet seem very nice, we have talked about it, we remember our loses but a 26 year old German is not responsible for Hitler than I am for Stalin’s actions. We can’t change our counties history, just learn
Hi Ulya, I agree with your logic but unfortunately people are a very tribal bunch and like to have a ‘them’ and ‘us’. ‘Us’ are always the goodies and ‘them’ are the baddies. Its a simple way to look at things and appeals to our sense of self. Its easily manipulated too unfortunately.
Until we evolve as a species I can’t see it changing.
I’m an optimist Andy, or stupid, you decide. One day we must learn to take time to understand each other’s point of view or continue to make the same mistakes. History is against me in this I know
I doubt you’re stupid and there’s nothing wrong with being optimistic. At the risk of patronising, age plays a part, I see myself as a ‘cautious optimist’, I hope for the best but prepare for it not happening. As you get older you do tend to become more cynical as you see the same patterns happening over and over again. This plays nicely into the ‘pick a side’ logic, it can become easier just picking a side than trying to see both. It’s really quite saddening. Right, I’m away to sort out my Chi by climbing some hills….
Serbia is not a EU colony and is no required to “align” anything. As for Serbia’s overtures to Europe? They want in so they can veto anything regarding Kosovo for all time.
Kosovo, it is a interesting situation and sets a precedent, I think that is the right word
$1m per unit – we should buy a couple of hundred and change the electronics out.
Bargain
That is a bargain…it’s hard to see how it’s variable, cheap cheap cheap no doubt.