NATO ‘committed to partnership with Ireland’ says Alliance deputy chief

Think you mean at TD level, we like most have plenty of Independents that happen to be anti any military and complain left right and center about everything. But they are random people with no influence on anything.Show me the link to Ministerial level comments.

Varadkar has been no different to any other Irish politician in regards to the issue of NI after Brexit, and as yet the UK still hasn’t put forward solutions that don’t have issues. In fact he and FG would be the more UK friendly party in the Daíl.

The one article was in the Irish Times. Senator Gerald Craughwell was most offended that RAF jets were allowed to encroach Ireland’s Sovereign Airspace! There was another more strident attack-will try to find Mark.

In terms of political power Senators are above Local Councillors and thats about it. They have zero influence or powers and apart from one or two that have done things outside of the Seanad most people woudn’t know them if they met them.

Again you are pointing to effectively “cranks” who complain mostly for the sake of complaining, not anyone of actual Governmental control.

Hi Mark-let me give you some background in this interesting and civilised exchange. I am the son of NI Protestants’ married to a wife half Irish Catholic and half Jewish. I would describe myself first and foremost as British. I have a strong attachment to the ROI and its peoples. I can sing God Save the Queen and God Save Ireland. I visited the Post Office in Dublin to imagine those days in 1916. I admired the bravery of those men who were celebrated” I’ll sing you a song of a row in the Town”. I acknowledge the atrocities visited upon the Irish by the Black and Tans and others. But I don’t forget what the IRA did in NI-in Armagh, in London butchering Soldiers and their horses and many other vile deeds and, yes, the atrocities of the Protestant paramilitaries. So, there is no Black and White. However I do not think the Government of Varadkar has acted in good faith over the Brexit issue and yes , I am conflicted about that to! Finally I greatly admire the men and women of Irelands Armed forces. All of this is difficult to understand and one last thing-I wonder why an Irish man such as yourself posts on this broadly British site-just curious and no agenda in that question.
Kind Regards

To be clear I’ve zero time or support for anyone involved in the Troubles on either side. It’s perhaps sometimes forgotten that the PIRA was also against the Irish State. I live by the Irish Naval Base and my childhood school runs had regular Army/Gardaí checkpoints every week due to the next town over being (and still is) an IRA hotbed.

As to why I post, well Irish military affairs don’t get much coverage at home (some lack of interest, some the DF likes everyone to think it’s just sitting around in white vehicles rather than some of the combat situations they’ve been in).

Thanks Mark. nice chatting to you

You know that “sovereignty” thing… The Republic is fully within it’s rights to have whatever DF size the public will support (sadly that’s not much) as for the path you’ve chosen, on you go nobody is stopping you, all we want is for you to come up with a way of not setting NI on fire that doesn’t require Unicorns to be involved.

True have whatever DF size you like. It is a fair topic for discussion however between other NATO members is it not? Brexit & politics are rarely discussed on this site however I would like to point out there is a lot of concern from people here that Brexit should not cause problems in Ireland and we are attempting to provide potential solutions which work for all sides. This will require good faith all round.

Why would NATO members waste their time discussing the defence state of a Non NATO member? I mean they can just seems a waste of time for them.

The UK originally didn’t propose any workable solutions for the issue and didn’t even consider it, even the latest suggestion has been utterly destroyed in Northern Ireland by everyone including Unionists for what Johnson proposed.

As to “Good Faith”, yeah that’s not going to happen.

Mark, That is the point of this article. NATO should and must study their relationships with all countries considering how their policies affects the overall defensive position. I sense the anger over Brexit – we have that on all sides but sooner or later it will be resolved one way or another.

Actually as I said I wonder if this was actually more discussing Ireland joining the Cyber Defence Center.

As for resolving Brexit, given what it’s kicked over in NI, try “later”, UK-EU relations are going to be a long running issue.

There has been cooperation with Ireland for years in many areas. Cyber is the new kid on the block so why not. I think the plan for Brexit is closing fast like it or not.

Don’t disagree, just interesting timing that this is done now after the visit.

As for Brexit, one way or the other the Exit part will be done, sure. But as the other non-EU European nations have been pointing out that just brings years of talks on everything else the UK-EU relationship will bring.

And it won’t put the genie back in the bottle in regards to NI.

Mark, the future of the Ireland of Ireland is in the hands of the Irish nobody else. It will be resolved when you ALL decide to resolve it. We will not be surprised if trade agreements run into problems due to anti British sentiments we are used to them. But many will want to trade with us. Brexit may or may not be a disaster but we ignore democracy at our peril.

Actually since only the UK can call a vote if ever the situation demanded it technically it’s in Westminsters as well.

And it has nothing to do with “anti British” sentiments, I mean look at the 20 year running arguments between the Swiss and the EU. The UK can’t escape the fact that it’s going to have to engage with the EU and as a “Third Nation” that’s going to be very different to as a member.

I’m positive that when (and not if) the Irish speak with one voice any UK Government will be falling over themselves to play their part in resolving this issue once and for all. Currently NI is in the UK with all the protections normally discussed on this site however we will support that democratic change when it comes.

The EU is bubbling with nationalist sentiments which suggests it has not waited an appropriate amount of time and is forcing ever closer union faster than its population is comfortable with. Those on both sides not wanting a quick free trade deal will have to search their own minds for their motives. We all make our own decisions and live with the consequences. I wish you well.

Really the UK Government who now has a “Minister for the Union” and whose last one repeatedly banged on about the Precious Union when she was speaking?

I won’t hold my breath.

As for “quick trade deals”, as some of the UK’s own former Negotiators put it, “you can have two of three, a quick deal, a fair deal, a deep deal”. The UK won’t get the same access as it had as a Member.

Yes because we have a Union which will be promoted and defended – the only thing that will change that is democracy. I detect that anti British thing again – the bad Brits stopping us. Time & friendship is the solution and you are part way there. As for the trade it cuts both ways – its your opportunity to punish us. You must do that if you wish.

Not really, I was actually paraphrasing one of Cameron’s No. 10 staff that worked during the Scottish vote and until Cameron quit, it was his view that Whitehall became far less willing to consider any “unification” situation after coming so close to losing Scotland.

Also of course there’s the issue that the UK Government is meant to be impartial in running NI and yet particularly over the last two governments there has been a large favouritism towards the Unionist position.

As for “punishing the UK”, it’s not punishing it’s simply applying the same standards of a third nation to the UK as the EU does to any other nation.

The British Government are effectively out of the equation and neither the British parliament nor people have any legal right under this agreement to impede the achievement of Irish unity if it had the consent of the people North and South… Our nation is and always will be a 32-county nation. Antrim and Down are, and will remain, as much a part of Ireland as any southern county. Bertie Ahern

Ireland is a special case. The Good Friday Agreement is path to peace. All the Irish have to do is walk it. Cameron was getting carried away with his referendums sooner or later one wasn’t going to go to plan – which is where we are now.

As I said it wasn’t just Cameron, it was in his opinion a hardening of Whitehall itself to the idea, for example reportedly May was challenged to put a Border Poll to NI to remove the issue of the Backstop and according to the leaks answered “No, as I’m afraid we might lose”.

I have no doubt that the UK would love to be rid of the burden of NI, but equally I have doubts that Westminster is ready or willing to accept the constitutional fallout afterwards.

On the subject of trade nobody knows what will happen or the impact. It is all crystal ball gazing. All sides will simply adjust as best they can, find alternate suppliers and/or clients if necessary.

… and the EU won’t get their billions/yr when we were a member.

I was born and raised in Northern Ireland and grew up through the height of the Troubles and felt the effect in full. My own Father was hijacked on multiple occasions just going about his business earning a living for his family. VCPs and Army searches were second nature and nightly news reports of car-bombs, shootings, beatings, etc., were the norm. All this nonsense about the Good Friday Agreement collapsing post-Brexit is just that – utter nonsense. We have been through too much before 1998 and have gained so much since 1998 that the Northern Irish people – on both sides – will simply not allow a return to those days. It’s scaremongering by those politicians who refuse to respect the will of the 17+M people who voted to leave.

For better or worse, the British people have spoken and their will needs to be carried out by those elected to do so. Anything less is treachery of the highest order.

Well no of course we won’t, that’s an already factored in price of Brexit since 2016.

As to you’re view on what might or might not happen, the head of the PSNI and Gardaí (whose former PSNI) along with the intelligence services and “former” terrorists hold a different view.

Attacks are increasing, that’s a fact, new Arms shipments have been intercepted and former caches moved, fact. Stormont is effectively dead with nothing like the relationship between London and Dublin for the last 2-3 decades.

Or as someone who also lived the Troubles put it recently, look back to the papers of NI in the early to late 60’s… There was nothing to suggest what was about to happen.

The violence of the past achieved nothing and I hope the relationships you speak of might be strained but are strong enough to withstand the current issues.

So which poor EU taxpayer is going to be told (because they won’t be asked) that they have to make up the difference? How do you think they will feel? The EU is trying to make an example of the UK as they are heart scared that it would mean a mass exodus if referenda were offered to other EU countries. Public sentiment in France and Italy is currently leaning toward ‘Leave’ if given the opportunity and the EU knows it.

As for your reference to an increase in attacks. Increasing from what? There have always been sporadic attacks from dissident republicans ever since the GFA was signed. Unlike before they have no support as even the Provos want nothing to do with the likes of the Real IRA. Such attacks for the most part, have been foiled and contained and will continue to be.

Both sides – PIRA, INLA, UVF, UDA and UFF – all know there is no going back to the dark days. Stormont has its own issues that were there long before Brexit and is impotent but it’s the people of Northern Ireland that won’t allow a return to the Troubles.

Some nations will pay more in contributions, some nations will get less transfers out of the budget. That will be sorted out during the talks on the next budget cycle, but I’m not sure of your point tbh. That was the natural end point of the decision in 2016, it’s not a threat or leverage, just reality that the UK is gone.

As for EU nations, most have actually seen a decline in “Leave” polling as the members have watched the UK “struggle”, even Le Pen switched to a “Remain and Reform” type platform post Brexit.

As for NI, I’m well aware of the constant low level activity, however in the last 18 months that has stepped up with increased attacks on the PSNI (or attempts) and general increase in violence (Derry for example with everything from increased riots to car bombs)

Ah no, I think if you actually read the articles of the time what he was referencing is that in a No Deal situation the UK will fall out of the current EU based “Open Skies” agreements without replacement which has impacts on landing rights of UK airlines.

Nothing to do with RAF overflights.

The E.U. does not have control over matters of airspace. These rules are international and governed by long standing arrangements and treaty.
Ireland should have invested in port facilities if they wish for independence from the U.K.’s borders long before 1973. They chose not to possibly because of the unnecessary expense of such infrastructure. Fully 75 per cent of Ireland’s produce is sold in the U.K.
Ireland has a fine record of peace keeping around the world; just not in the island of Ireland itself. I like the Irish but I can do without the blarney.

The EU is the authority through which the member states signed the Open Skies Agreements. If the UK leaves without a deal then it won’t have those agreements and will default to those agreed I think in the late 60’s. The UK has tried to get agreement with the US but last I read the US demands were such that the UK won’t accept.

Also we have invested in Port facilities (and we were independent long before 1973), and no “75%” of Ireland’s produce is not sold in the UK, not even close to that amount even in agri goods. Think the UK alone is now 3rd or 4th in size, it’s either this year or next that Germany moves ahead of the UK.

Also in case you hadn’t paid attention the only part of the island that’s had issues in living history is the part that the UK runs, nothing to do with the Republic at the time.

The comment was about Ministers. You know as in the Government, not “random TD taking shots for the sake of it”, are you suggesting that the Commons doesn’t have random MP’s that come out with stupid things. Those TD’s tend to be either SF which I don’t need to explain or hard left idiots that I shouldn’t need to explain.

Post anything that has a Minister or Junior Minister attacking the deal, hell even mentioning it.

Mark. What a load of rubbish. Merkle was expressing her support for the Drunker/Macron plan for an EU army not to an insignificant audience but to the EU Parliament in Strasburg. How on earth can you try a dimiss or discredit this absolutely clear statement of intent? Why do EU supporters bend over backwards to deny that the EU is embarked on creating a United States of Europe.

Merkel is effectively a lame duck Chancellor with no certainty that her chosen successor will be able to win the next election, so her power within EU politics is waning. That is Fact.

Juncker is now a non entity. It doesn’t matter what he wants he’s gone, new person, new policies and positions.

Macron as I said has plenty to deal with at home.

As for creating a “UES” or “EU Army” I dismiss it as there is no unanimous or majority support within the Council for such a move, until that changes then it won’t happen and if such an event comes to pass it will be because the elected Governments believe they have the support of their nations.

The new commission president is a Merkel disciple. Down to current polls, the next German government will be even more pro deepening EU ties. Add to this, that this is the perfect show to hide Germany’s tiny defense expenditure, and you have the perfect reasoning, why an EU army will come.

France wants to become the defense industry powerhouse of Europe, delivering all the next gen stuff. Germany is backing this, because they can wave the friendly hegemon flag, while supplying the machinery. They are only interested in using the common market as a means to secure trade surpluses.

PESCO and an EU army will ultimately secure that strategy. There is already talk about EuroSpike being left in the dust. It’s all about protectionism and cronyism.

The Dutch have already said, they don’t want an EU army to happen. This nay wasn’t even discussed in France and Germany. Like almost everything connected to the EU, the facts set by the technocrat upper echelon will inevitably lead to adoption by force. Hurdles to be overcome by re-labelling.

I do agree with you, as a full rotational commitment of 10% will require at least 30% of the forces available to fulfil that commitment. However their deployments are not full war fighting scales and therefore require substantially less. Also their costs come from the UN funds and therefore comiting forces to UN ops can be seen as a bit of a get-out clause for countries who want to sit at the table so to speak. And amusing enough, nothing to do with Brexit, but then again that’s the presumption many in the left seem to take, it’s more to do with having a wife who was born and raised in Dublin!

Mark, Mark, Mark…those small 10 man odd units Ireland have deployed. Shotgun units. How exactly are they going to defend themselves if they get bounced by a larger force? What is there relief or rescue plan?
It is a good and noble gesture deploying troops on peacekeeping missions but there should be a credible back up plan. The only small units normally deployed in penny packet sized shotgun groups usually are special forces, who have the training, firepower and expertise to either avoid an ambush or to break contact pretty damn quickly.

What makes you think those small units are deployed in isolation? Most of the time they are with other units, for example the training group in Mali works with UK forces. That or it’s historic deployments that are no longer active but still have UN deployments.

In fairness, we escort with an OPV because we can, if required, sink the ship with a SSN. Nothing really more to say on that matter.

Not at all, but every side behaved appallingly on occasion, over Ireland. And it’s a shame that many people, continue today, to harp on about issues which should be put to bed and move on.

I think the Queen put it best when she was in Dublin, sadly current events have set back inter governmental relations by a generation or so, though I’m sure either side will point the finger at the other.