Royal Marines are in Norway as they prepare for important exercises alongside NATO allies in the region, according to the Ministry of Defence.
According to a news release:
“Every winter the next generation of Royal Marines head to the high north to train in surviving, moving and fighting across the rugged coasts and unforgiving mountains of northern Norway, demonstrating the UK’s commitment to protecting one of its closest NATO allies.
This year, marines will spearhead the UK involvement in Exercise Cold Response, supported by a task group of Royal Navy ships and aircraft, including aircraft carrier and NATO command ship HMS Prince of Wales.”
The Norwegian-led exercise, in March and early April, involves 35,000 troops from 28 nations, with allied warships and aircraft working closely together as the powerful task force tests its ability to protect Norway from modern threats.
Colour Sergeant Taylor, 45 Commando’s Mountain Leader 1 said:
“In terms of the training benefit, we’re in a really good position. I’m expecting the companies to maximise their interaction with this demanding environment, so that they grow as an effective fighting force.”
You can read more here.
We’re considering cutting RMs yet if we need troops in freezing eastern Europe PDQ we leave NATO’s northern flank weaker. Seems to me RMs would be better expanded if anything for more reactive rapid deployment forces.
Couldn’t agree more. The whole UK force needs a full reorganisation and the RM should be doubled in size with a division specifically tasked To the northern flank. This can be achieved within current overall numbers but will require a comprehensive plan and realignment of units under the the RM.
Seems to me that we continue to underestimate the value of the RM whilst not having a viable alternative. Exactly what is the strategy for the UK’s armed forces and more specifically it’s land forces which the marines are certainly part of.
Not sure how you could expand it to a division and maintain the same quality, recruitment is tough enough with high employment. It would also need a vast increase in accommodation, administration, logistics and engineering support and specialist components.
There are better things to spend money on, such as air defence missiles and assets, offensive cruise missiles and lethality for the RN against surface and sub surface threats.
Agreed. Restoring a full brigade with a full suite of enablers is realistic, a division is not.
I would have to agree, a sensible solution would be to rise the number to 10,000.
Restoration of the Corps to a full Brigade deployment capability, with four Battalions in total, each Commando increased to circa 1000 personal and increased support across the board.
Three establishing the Brigade and a fourth dedicated to the Commando Raider concept.
A range of new equipment, new generation Artillery support, increase AH64E numbers and amphibious support helicopters, specialist vehicles and shipping.
All very expensive, but it would create a robust and extremely capable amphibious force for the future.
Mate, you’ve basically described how 3 Commando RM should be.
I’d reform 41, who were disbanded early 80s I recall, leaving the long standing 3 Cdo structure.
As ever, absolutely Daniele…
I think the next SDSR could be very interesting, barring a god forbid war in Ukraine, ‘if’ the current level of tension with Russia settles, then it will settle into a new Cold War, things won’t improve with Russia until there’s been a change at the top.
For relations to improve, Putin would have to back down and eat large amounts of humble pie, he won’t and can’t do that, it would be signing his own death warrant effectively.
A gradual de-escalation into a simmering cold war is about as good as we can expect.
Where this puts the SE Asia pivot is anyone’s guess, we will need to seriously increase defence spending to do both, 3 – 3.5% would be my guess.
Interesting times, a little like the mid 1930’s when we were enjoying another ‘peace dividend’, we have yet again been seriously caught out and utterly unprepared for an increasingly unstable Geopolitical world environment.
“we have yet again been seriously caught out and utterly unprepared for an increasingly unstable Geopolitical world environment.”
The usual suspects for that. Politicians, only interested in votes and next week, not in 5 years or a decade.
People more interested in what “celebreties” are up to rather than whether the military is well resourced does not help.
I assume installing even a modicum of pride and interest in the military and defence in general in schools and the wider population would be shot down by the woke brigade.
You still heard (probably still do hear) comments about the end of the Cold War meaning a totally different defence regime (if any) and political environment required for the new world situation. How quickly things change and all those weapons like Typhoon that were mocked as no longer relevant are now not only crucial but in far too few numbers. Even many Greens even in Germany now talk sensibly about the threat from Putin intent on rebuilding Empire and status in a world that has been leaving Russia increasingly sidelined. Europe really does need to think seriously about it’s defence priorities the EU especially who could have member countries esp Finland invaded who are not part of NATO even though the EU has a mutual support pact for members. With the US potentially in a shambles again in a few years with even a potential Trump (or certainly front man) return to power Europe must and is more than capable of with the will being more than powerful enough to deal with Russia without relying on the US but it seems painfully intent on ignoring this ultimate threat to its very existence in worst case scenarios. Internal disagreements are very concerning not to mention down right stupid in the circumstances when only unity will cut Putin’s ambitions off at the knees.
Not only Typhoons were mocked as irrelevent but also the army’s tanks and medium-weight AFVs. Even senior Generals who should have known better were predicting )or even advocating) the demise of the tank barely a year ago.
I remember reading not so long ago, that a lot off schools, colleges and universities staff were objecting to forces recruitment teams attending careers day events.
Mainly members of the teaching unions ‘blob’.
The usual!
Yes.
The UK is far enough from the frontline that they feel they can be self-indulgent.
Indeed and was depressed to read only yesterday how Finland (but Sweden also) are being issued threats by the Russians despite their history of neutrality. Even many in Finland’s Greens are saying NATO membership is a no brainier when once it was almost unthinkable and both Countries are increasing their defence spending. Indeed Finlands PM has said that Russias behaviour has already returned to Cold War levels in respect of his Country in terms of intimidation and threats and as such forcing them to consider their future aspirations. He also claimed that this is related to and typical of Russia’s behaviour when they are in decline and conditions at home become so desperate. Certainly, post Ukraine, esp if Putin escapes it in a stronger position as a result of his actions we can see where the next set of actions will occur I think. Indeed very reminiscent of the 30s when years of such machinations occurred to hide but also as an excuse for militarisation.
Bang on this and far better then the Army’s ranger stuff which will cost the same and deliver about a quarter of the effect. A bigger RM funded with a few less army infantry regiments would be a wise trade off.
I would concur, if it means a reduction in poorly equipped Army infantry Battalions, to add extra personnel to the RM, then so be it, far more bang for your buck….
If an expanded 3 Brigade, with Apache and some light armour go to Northern Norway, and 16 Brigade go to Iceland, with a UK mechanised division as backup based in Scotland, that provides our Northern flank with some decent cover, depth and a new ‘Look North’ strategy.
Fleet and RAF in Scotland can provide air-support and ASW assets too, ie. you could base a squadron of Typhoons, with tankers and a couple of Poseidon’s out of Iceland, and also move some RAF assets to Norway.
Remember if Russia stops / slows Reforger (or its new name) were stuffed.
It gives the UK an ability to add support and make a significant difference to our own defence and that of that flank, where we are so exposed at present.
Central European defence is best left to the bigger European NATO armies, like Poland, France and Germany. A single understrength, poorly equipped UK division makes very little difference in Eastern Europe, but on the Northern flank it still provides and delivers a lot more.
The RM are part of RN family and come out of it’s share of the budget. Any increase would mean cuts to the rest of the RN. Any increase in the RN’s share of the budget would be opposed by the Army and RAF and even the RN itself as it would lead to an ongoing war between the services inside the MoD until it was at least reversed.
Disagree, politics aside I think most people can see the benefit of a modest increase to the RM. Their numbers will still be well below that of the rest of the services and proportionate. The RM are proud to be part of the RN and hopefully it’s reciprocated for the great work they have done.
We say ‘expansion’ of the RN but in reality successive governments have left a deficit. The RM shouldn’t now be maligned now to fill some void in budget/personnel.
Which ships would you cut from the fleet ? Yes the RN value the RM highly. That’s why they’ve always opposed cuts to them or for example scrapping Albion and Bulwark.
Zero… as you know the fleet is expanding.
MOD estimate costs of all military operations in Afghanistan up to 2012 at about £25 billion, others suggest this as high as £37 billion. In 2010 the Navy made 5,000 redundant.
By delegating the budget to each command, the government conveniently absolves itself of responsibility. Stealth ‘Cuts’ are made to look like choices of the Navy board. Why we have a deficit? Perhaps UOR’s don’t really help foot the overall bill at the same time kit is being depleted.
But by making 42 Cdo the provider of specialised units, 3 Commando Brigade is now losing some of its potential fighting mass 1/3. These units along with 16AA have been the most effective over all the campaigns in Afghanistan and beyond. Dare I say one of the most efficient also.
The national flagship and the T32s…….(assuming they are just T31s up gunned) More RM, more choppers and a couple more T26 instead of a political wet dream and pure numbers.
Cutting the 5 Type 32’s and the flagship wouldn’t even pay for the 2 Type 26’s.
The T31s are £250m, if the T32s are uparmed T31s the £300m x 5 + £250m for the flagship = £1.75bn. The first 3 T26s were £3.7bn which suggests the next 5 are £860m each. With the Aussies and Canadians purchasing items in the supply chain and the cost inflated due to slow build times, it would seem feasible to get two more for £1.5bn. Spend the other £250m on 8 Merlins……
The current Merlin upgrade is costing £800m for 30 existing helicopters. The Type 26 was budgeted in 2017 as £9.87bn for 8 ships. You think a future batch of 26’s would be cheaper but a future batch of 31’s eg the 32’s would be more expensive.
Maybe if we fired half the 12,000 people at DE&S who ‘negotiate’ these ‘deals’ the 6,000 who were left might be able to get these things for a better price.. and the headcount savings would buy another ten T26s (or whatever balance of kit you fancy)
It’s 12,000 now is it? That’s one personal shopper for every six soldiers.
I know what you mean, but remember DES does more than just buy stuff through the procurement teams. Not all those 12,000 are shoppers!
The Tories should stop syphoning money off to their backers via privatised necessities etc where a big slice for huge profits is the first priority before providing a good product & treating employees with dignity & respect, close the tax loopholes & fund what society needs. We now see the inevitable consequence of runing down out military so far that China & Russia feel secure enough to challange freedom & democracy. It’s not preferring any service but the necessity of strengthening all for the good of all.
Wrong forum Frank but well spotted. Tory philosophy is to take the money they collect from taxpayers and give it the private sector. They have no concept of social lien. This blindspot leads nepotism,, an inability to work as a national team and an obsession with ‘value for money’ and ever widening distribution of health and wealth. From a defence perspective we experience an ongoing series of MOD debacles. Their behaviour achieves the opposite of the efficiency they profess to desire but it’s a great way to keep the gravy train rolling along…especially if you are on it😉
But hey, we voted them in….They are very good at persuading us to want things which are not in the interests of most of us. Its a simple piece of psychology….you just appeal to peoples indignation and ego. Have a great day!
That’s a tad one sided Frank, don’t forget Tony Blair swung the axe with glee too, sold off whatever was left of publicly owned assets and left the ‘toxic nuclear waste’ of PFI’s for future tax payers to deal with….
While I think NATO being run down to its current point, low force levels and a general lethargy, has certainly encouraged and emboldened Russia, it’s not an issue for China ( NATO is irrelevant to them), only US Defence capability and it’s leadership agenda, keep them contained.
Indeed notable that in the Chinese version of their Pact with Russia it didn’t even mention NATO even though the Russian version did. They have different priorities and I’m sure while China is no doubt concerned about NATO expanding into a Pacific sub-variant they are reasonably content with it in Europe keeping Russia engaged as it will minimise all the issues that divide them from flaring up as they inevitably would. I dare say Russia is more than happy for China to be preoccupied with the US in the Pacific too to make sure they don’t start getting heavy on their territorial claims and concerns. The pact protects their flanks and increases overall power projection but in almost opposite ways and objectives beyond that.
Hi Frank et al,
long one, sorry.
I think you’re identifying the problems with capitalism without also considering the benefits. Let’s remember that the USSR basically failed on a two pronged assault – cultural and economic. In the latter case massive inefficiency simply meant we in the West could make our money go further, simply by the redistribution of capital to those most able to use it effectively. The case in point I go to was microchips. Technically they were at a similar developmental level but in the US, they could be produced for less than a dollar, whilst in the USSR it was many, many times that.
We also need to remember that it is the flow of money and investment in businesses looking for future profits via growth and predicted future earnings that 1) pays for our pensions but 2) in a defence context finances R&D. China is presently out competing the USA at a social and governmental level but the one thing that may keep the US in the game is the massive private investment pouring into tech companies which just isn’t happening in China.
The UK is presently spending around 40% of GDP on public services, which is a technical sweet spot. Evidence indicates spending much below this figure is insufficient to provide the necessities for a functioning state where business and individuals can thrive. Much above 40% and that level of funding slows growth and dis-incentivises work. People are already starting to feel the pinch with inflation & rising interest rates etc. putting more of a burden on them won’t help. Yes the rich could pay more, but the 1% already finance about 1/3 of everything in the UK. Is that a “fair” tax policy, I let others decide? Google this is you don’t believe me. The problem is quantitative easing has massively benefited the rich at the expense of everyone else, this needs reversing fast and carefully.
Now, the problem as I see it, is inertia. Especially in markets like today. Wages would rise and conditions improve if people left their jobs for other firms – if people applied market rules to the employers! If the state created an environment where it was easier for employees to move and get training whilst paying mortgages and keeping families then this could happen. At the moment the risk sits with individuals, change that and I think things would improve. But, merely requiring businesses to pay more would make such moves even less likely. So, good firms will find it even more difficult to find the right people and grow whilst bad ones enjoy even greater employee inertia. This is a recipe for reducing social mobility further.
Finally, remember the “peace dividend” didn’t manifest in reduced taxes, it just went to other parts of the state. Maybe profits are too high but I doubt it, good businesses have higher overheads (training, pensions, welfare etc) so they need to be high. Over these decades our reduced military budget has mainly come from MoD mis-spending and growth in the rest of the state not from profit taking.
The problem we have is our economy is relatively and increasingly unproductive and our population is growing, so everyone is getting a shrinking slice of a shrinking pie. We don’t as a nation invest in the long term, contracts are highly competitive (typically) so there are fewer good companies making good profits to invest in its people. And people tend to stay put. So, market forces don’t work here. This forces the government to raise taxes and prioritise wealth redistribution, just to keep things on the road and inflated asset prices (QE) means everyone has high debt repayment, increasing the personal risk of leaving for a different employer or getting more training. All in all, not a good situation, so consequently investing more in defence becomes a harder proposition when people are already struggling.
To fix this we need a new perspective:
I’m sure others can think of other things we need to do to increase the size of the pie for everyone.
I think a better society will come where people are more empowered and have a greater say in business decisions and share in their companies’ profitability. Just increasing the size of the state and redistribution will not accomplish this. People will be fractionally better off but no more empowered but they will be more dependent on politicians and an increasingly unsustainable taxation policy and the willingness of the 1% to stay here.
But that’s just my thinking, I’m no expert.
A lot to agree with there some not to and some I can’t say I fully understood the point. Will just add a few point to considerably.
Almost all chip production now is produced in or under control of China, Taiwan and South Korea. That may slowly change as the US is putting pressure on TSMC to spread its production and IP away from Taiwan/Mainland China while trying to make Intel innovative and relevant once again while supporting its other chip companies. However one can see some military moves presently would decimate the Wests access to wide ranging areas of chip design and production of silicon chips to power almost anything esp in the mobile environment. Ironically Russia would very possibly have greater access and cheaper to silicon chips and associated electronics than the West would.
China is effectively running its economy on National Socialist lines which has certain advantages over pure capitalist competitors at national, International, economic or company level if exploited correctly which they are presently doing. Even the ultimate and massively scaled pure capitalist nation is struggling here, and presently in most areas failing to compete, lesser countries are left in the dust.
Recently I saw a documentary detailing how entrepreneurs from around the world were being attracted to create offices or simply take creative desk spaces in Shanghai to develop their ideas as all the support to bring anything they design to fruition quicker and cheaper, because all the support and tech they require exists around them leading to instant and budgeted prototyping that would be much more difficult, time consuming and expensive elsewhere. This has tended to be one of the greatest assets the US economy has provided over its history back to the 19th C most recently in Computer games, but this has and is being seriously eroded.
The presumed advantages of Capitalism have been exploited by China, encouraged but with strong central control as and where felt required to presently and the foreseeable future be not only incomparable as a producer but increasingly as an innovator and only big ructions over time, internal strife politically or eventually increasing (likely labour) led production costs and/or massive over confidence will change that.
Not that this has anything to do with the Marines mind
Don’t disagree with your analysis but your definition of National Socialism is incorrect. I could try to explain but would probably mess it up. I’d recommend searching Youtube for TIK documentaries to find out.
pretty much yes is it Neo liberalism ? Whilst us commoners bemoan the loss of everything and continue to use Amazon,over the local high street.
It may indeed be the wrong forum in some regards but substitute BAE for Amazon and hey presto….Its that very ethos that has led us to where we are now- so worth mentioning it sometimes.
There’s a wide chasm between Communism & the free market Tatcherite approach where everything has a price but no value, so we end up with nothing of worth.
5 basic steps.
1. Identify purpose and mission of armed forces
2. Consider alternaye strategies and resource options to achieve ‘1’ and select
3. Put in place resources and skills to achieve objectives identified in 2
4. Perform mission ( rehearse, drill, exercise)
5. Perform lessons learnt and enhance 3 after everytime you perform 4…..and / or reassess 1.
UK is in no position ( and others are in a much better position) to have a mission based around significant land support and reinforcement of central and Eastern Europe. Germany and France, Hungary, Czechs etc should have that role within NATO.
Reinforcing the Northern flank (including Baltic states) is a realistic and meaningful role for the UK and also fits well with the global deployment ambitions of Global Britain.
Suggest ‘1’ is defence of UK plus significant reinforcement of Northern Flank and Baltic states and with the capabilities that brings, the execution of global Britain strategies as and when required.
The whole issue of RN v RAF v Army v Space force budget debates etc will be a function of step 1 and step 2.
Who would decide the priorities ? What would be your reaction if the people deciding the priorities came to conclusions you considered crazy ?
Would rather have a government and ministry of defence in discussion with NATO partners determine the role and contribution of UK in NATO and for the government and MOD to determine capabilities beyond NATO than have 3 or 4 different services squabbling like spoilt children over who gets what toys.
Understand your frustration but the equal shares arrangement between the 3 services has reduced considerably the inter service bunfights over who gets what.
Where are we cutting RM? I’ve not seen anything indicating the size of the corps will reduce.
It’s been discussed a while.
Morning Frank.
Yes, on discussion forums such as this and press speculation in response to FCF changes for 40 and 45 Commando and how they will be organised.
The other areas speculated as at risk are the army units in support, who are not RM.
If you’ve seen anything official ala FS for the army that RM going to be chopped I’d love to see it and amazed I missed it.
And I’d be seriously pissed off as they are some of if not our best Light Infantry.
The previous cut was a small one for 42 when it changed role to MOps Cdo which resulted in a small increase in posts elsewhere in the RN.
A small reduction of 300 has already been implemented, this allowed for extra naval personnel to ensure both carriers could be operational simultaneously. The reduction is in effect the reorganisation of 42 and 43 Cdos.
43 remains the Fleet Protection Group (O, P and R squadrons protect the nuclear deterrent – O and P in a static role at Faslane and R a dynamic unit used to protect a range of facilities and nuclear materials in transit) and also includes the RM snipers and Mountain and Arctic Warfare cadre and a detachment on HMS Protector, but its specialist boarding and search squadron transferred to 42 Cdo. 42 now has four specialist squadrons responsible for:
40 and 45 Cdos are the raiding units, each with six squadrons forming the core of a Littoral Response BG.
Yes, a good, more detailed overview about which I discussed lower down the thread.
Ah yes, I scrolled down now!
In some ways this reflects 3 Cdo Brigade’s posture in the 1960s, when 40 and 45 were deployed aboard the commando carriers Albion and Bulwark, while 42 was used in a fleet protection / light infantry role. In those days 3 CB was permanently based in Singapore, however.
Slighty off topic, but remaining with Norway, they are currently in the market for a new Main Battle tank, narrowed it down to the:
German Leopard 2A7V
South Korean K2 Black Panther
Link takes you to a twitter feed with a video of the 2 carrying out the wacky races
Yes. Makes me wonder if the leopard is the preferred offer and the k2 is just there for competition sake.
My guess is the leopard will win but we will wait and see.
The German guns, British armour, Israelis for experience and self protection, Koreans and Americans for tech and ideas would make a mean tank. I haven’t included Japan as they need lighter tanks and hopefully Korea would bring the same as them.
Seeing as Norway already operates the Leo 2 A4NL it would appear to be the logical choice, regards familiarity, training , maintenance and the logistical chain all of which are already in place. I can only presume the inclusion of the K2, is there to bring down the price of any deal regards the Leo 2.
That said,the South Koreans have come a long way reagrds weapon development and now sport and export world class:
MBTs
Artillery
Jet trainers
Anti aircraft systems (Just sold the Cheongung II KM-SAM to the UAE in a $3.5 billion deal)
A lot of this is down to how the West (looks at the UK) has cut back on developing weapons, add the human rights factor and others have taken to developing their own. My gripe in all of this , we have seen a drop in the number of trained engineers, who often leave to build and design other things (looks at Israel) . we now have more wonks training to be social justice warriors, journalists and such (all in the arts) than we have people trained to keep the lights on.
(On the developing weapons bit, I read the other day how after spending around £207 million developing the fire shadow, the MOD cancelled it in 2017/2018 no doubt due to some bright spark presuming that there was no need for such a weapon, and hey presto after finding its all the rage in Armenia, Libya. Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq we find (as usual) they were wrong. and have had to purchase American)
Yes lots of people/countries are seeing advantages in developing their own solutions in frustration with US restrictions, South Korea and now Japan in particular. I was shocked to hear on a side note that Space X, run by a former South African ironically only employs US citizens which, along with the policies of other companies restrictive natures has been claimed to have helped fuel the wide range of innovative Space ventures now developing all round the globe including in Germany and the UK. A lot of criticism that these sort of policies have been a factor in some of the poor performance of US giants particularly in the defence field which aren’t getting enough of the highly trained and innovative engineers that they need to keep their competitive advantage. On the other hand arrogance and complacency mixed with political weight has probably been greater influences on these old school businesses as the newer ones still seem to make great strides … well except Blue Origin 🤯
Instead of increasing size of RM, wouldn’t it be logical to look a creating a arctic brigade from the army light battalions? You have enough of them with no real function. If it has 4-5 infantry battalions plus correct support you could easily have a battalion group based in Norway permanently if required. That leaves the RM free to focus on other things
Couldn’t agree with you more Ulya, here is hoping that those at the top are actively considering such ideas.
The RM could still retain some specialist landing skills as and when required by having such a BCT as we now call them. Having the right kit to equip them with wouldn’t go amiss either.
It would be more logical to loose the units to quote with “no real function” and use the budget this frees up to reinstate the full Commando Brigade with all in attendant support units.
The only reason this hasn’t happened is purely because of the budget split between the forces. Therefore the army retains units with no real use for them and units regularly deployed get cut.
The geography and climate requires highly trained forces with its own aircraft and crucially shipping. To suggest you can substitute light infantry units in place of the near 50 years experience of the RM’s is an insult and shows a lack of understanding of the unique environment that they operate when in Norway.
The answer suggested back at the turn of the century but never delivered because of the wars we became entangled in was to get a least one of the Rifles Battalions trained to at least “All Arms Standard” like the support units that made up the Brigade provided by the Army.
Personally I liked the idea of the Army recreating a couple of its own Commando units that could be trained at Lympstone to work alongside the RM.
Of course this couldn’t happen because the Top Brass of the Army wouldn’t be in control.
This idea that there is some surplus of infantry battalions ‘with no real functions’ is wholly inaccurate. We only have 31 battalions and they are all spoken for:
10 are brigaded in our desultory total of 4 combat brigades, Britain’s’ smallest-ever field force.
13 are scattered around the globe in penny packets (3 in overseas garrisons, 4 SFABs, 4 converting to Rangers, 2 in Estonia)
Leaving just 8 in the UK (2 Public Duties, 1 Northern Ireland, 2 District, 3 Training).
We should never fall below 4 District battalions, that is the minimum required to keep some army footprint in the nation, provide assistance to the civil authority in emergencies, have standby troops for overseas deployment or, if worst should happen and we need to mobilise, be the cadres for any regenerative brigades.
There is nothing spare to form infantry commandos for Norway, for transfer to CS or CSS cap badges or anything else.
Quite a lot of people seem to think we have this big amorphous mass of infantry and other arms and services. The reality is that we are at our weakest, feeblest ever.
Of the nominal 31 infantry battalions, 11 will now be at half-strength, the SFABs and Rangers joining the training regiments in this respect, so 7 of them will not be formed and able to take the field.
We are now one of the weakest army links in NATO, no matter how much we prattle on about ‘Global Britain’ – where we are also too weak to have any real effect.
I was quoting others but the organisational mess that goes for the British Army these days I have long since giving up trying to understand.
Sadly i cannot foresee any immediate return to a coherent force structure but artic training some surplus Pongo’s did make me laugh.
Well I’d disband the 4 “battalions” assigned to the SFAB for starters and put that manpower into additional CS/CSS.
Have either S Ops Bde or SFAB,but not both.
Our main shortfall is in combat brigades. We cannot now field any useful force for anything other than a minor bush war.
If push were to come to shove in Ukraine, or anywhere else, and we were called on to.support a NATO forward deployment, our small contribution would be downright embarrassing for a nation of 67 million people.
It doesn’t have to be this way. Blair/Brown left us with 41-42 infantry battalions in 2010, which was really the barest minimum. In reality today, we have the equivalent of 24.that can be deployed, thanks to 11 years of endless cuts.
It is slightly heartening to hear the Shadow Defence minister calling for a halt and reversal of the latest wave of cuts in the ISR. ( Not reported in UKDJ…).
HMG no longer allows formal Parliamentary debates on defence, just a minimum session and vote. It would be most interesting to have an opposition motion on the subject, as there is a lot of unneasiness across all parties about the force reductions, despite the transparent spin about smaller, more agile more lethal etc. It will never happen though, HMG’s business managers don’t want to see critical headlines in their tabloids or Rishi forced to give the money back
I was just replying to a general post about a possible force structure which I also happen to think is a good idea, given that the RMs are changing from their current ‘Army LIB’ structure back to something more in line with their roots.
Personally I happen to agree with you and some other posters as to what the structure of 3 CDO Bde should be, unfortunately its not going to happen any time soon so we are where we are with that.
Given that we appear to still have a role to play protecting Nato NF (Norway), then perhaps we should be looking at a formation equipped and trained to deal with more extreme terrain both in hot and cold climates, suitably equipped with the correct equipment – ATTV type vehicles (Viking) perhaps.
Yes they would undoubtedly require trg in such environments, getting them there would also need to be considered – perhaps where some of 3 Cdo Bde skills would be utilised.
To suggest that our Lt Inf Battalions are not capable of being trained for such warfare is actually a bit demeaning. You do not need to be ‘elite’ to operate in such extreme conditions, just trained and equipped correctly for it. Clearly it wouldn’t happen overnight, but such a BCT/Bde would give the AF a bit of versatility where heavy armour and Boxer don’t fit the bill.
The main ethos behind M&AW is fitness and apart from the Paras who in the 80’s and 90’s went through M&AW training (under RM supervision) on a regular basis the other regular army units were quit frankly not fit enough and now fast forward to today the army is even less fit then they were then, with average fitness levels not much higher than the average civvy. The Idea of being “fit to fight” seem to have been lost along the way.
I would agree however that the Army dose need to step up and take some of the load off of the RM and should feild at least 2 fully trained M&AW units to help out in the Eastern Europe area of operations but there has to be a vast improvement in the fitness levels maintained in the infantry battalions.
Well, that’s definitely an eye opener WRT to army fitness levels! Thought by now we had got over the 80/90’s and improved upon that era, clearly not. I must say that I am surprised though, clearly a failure from up high. Seems that the army have plenty to occupy themselves with to get back on an even keel as it were.
It dose not bode well for the Army as when you take out the Paras you are left with the Gurkhas as being the next fittest and capable regiment. The Light Infantry should on paper be a close second to the Paras but seem to be falling far short of the mark at the moment. Then on top of these issues you have the fiasco with equipment procurement, you could almost think that Mr Putin has been directing the head sheds in the MoD for some time now!!!
Yes, those at the top of the food chain are certainly not covering themselves in glory, nor have they for a great many years by all accounts.
It will take a lot of hard work, time and money to put right I fear. As we are witnessing, couldn’t of come at a worse time really.
Assuming the people at the top of the Army actually think they have a problem at all.
Yes, been suggesting this idea for a while. Would take time to transfer the skills and experience built up over many decades though.
Very true, there is much to learn about arctic survival even without the fighting part, I have recently been learning this while working in Franz Josef Land, but if UK wants to take arctic seriously it needs to be done, RM seems to small to waste in a limited area when UK wants global Britian goal with extra ships etc, RM needs to focus there. Anyway, just my 2 pence worth 😉
Wow, you did say you were working up north, but I did not expect it to be THAT far north! Assumed you meant Arkhangelsk or the Kola or somewhere like that.
I started off in Severomorsk doing Arctic and rifle training with army for 3 weeks and then have been moving around, my company wants to do investment in north so I do lots of meetings and looking and at the moment have rely on army to provide guides and transport. Eventually I will be traveling all of the coast to far east, just moving from place to place is limited options so I have not worked all of the logistics out yet, I don’t know much about the north so learning as I go
I didn’t think women trained with the military in Russia? Are you a reservist?
Fascinating area of Russia, so you’ll be going as far as Taymr peninsula and Norilsk. You’ll be very cold!
Women serve in military, but all are contract soldiers, no conscription and there are limits on jobs they can do. I am not reservist, but areas I need to visit first are controlled by the military and I need their help to move around so they insist I do training with them instead of private company. It will be different as I move east, but like I say before I am still working out details. It is cold already, very different to what I am use to and I understand now why so many senior people declined and they happy I volunteered, but it is very interesting. Maybe my excitement will be different later as months go on
Tehran to Siberia!
Stay safe mate.
Hi Ulya, the problem is training to operate and fight, plus properly equipping personnel to operate in that brutal unforgiving environment, is a highly intensive and very expensive undertaking.
You need a very particular type of individual and extensive training.
Basically, you would end up with ‘proxy’ Royal Marines, so you might as well increase the RM Corps to begin with.
That is also a good point.
But MoD have redirected them, and I cannot see a complete about face now, even though much of the D Review and its tilt to the Pacific and M East is already obsolete given recent events.
The easiest way to restore the balance in the RM’s is to reinstate the Support company to 42Cdo so that would give you 3 full units (40,42,45) so that they can rotate in the various roles and still have a Cdo in reserve to help reinforce either the Southern or Northern unit. The fleet protection role should then be given either to 43 or 47Cdo. It would also be prudent to have some of the army’s light regiments working alongside the RM to bring their cold weather capabilities up to speed.
Yes, nice idea, and all possible, though it would require expansion of 43 as they are smaller already and are committed. One of their Squadrons ( forget which ) did carry out the role until it transferred to 42 when they moved to M Ops, leaving only 2 Squadrons in 43.
43 lost its Fire Support company IIRC.
I don’t think it had one, given 43s role in protecting the nuclear deterrent, it would not need heavier weapons like Mortars, Javelin, and GPMG.
It also has Squadrons, not Companies like other Commando.
I think you mean 42 lost its FS Coy, to become M Ops Cdo. Yes, again not necessary to have one now with the new roles.
Hello Daniele, I thought so, but it has been pointed out above that 42 is now specialised in it’s new role and would be hard to reform the Cdo but I do feel that the Corps operates better with 3 active Cdo’s. I guess I’m just old fashioned, but with 2 permanent commitments (40 going South and 45 going North) it would be a nice to have, having a 3rd unit to reinforce/relieve as necessary.
Well as I mentioned elsewhere, I’d reform 41. Then we have the 3 “green” Commando.
You are right on the money Daniele, but the bean counters do not see it that way. Most have zero concept of attrition and burn out, If you look at the senior messes of the units most deployed, the light infantry, RM and Paras you notice a far higher turn over as the guys burn out with constant deployments with very little family time. The problem is that units knowledge is held in those messes the SNCOs/Captains/Majors are the life blood of any unit and no matter how motivated the guys are the constant grind will take its toll.
If only the bean counters could see how much money they are losing by driving those guys away instead of having a realistic relief system.
IIRC a rifles Bn was a part of Cdo several years back but the idea got binned.
Yes, 1st Bn The Rifles. Gave the brigade the proper “square” 4 manoeuvre formations it had not had in years.
The other light infantry, rapid reaction formation, 16 AA, now has 4 battalions again too.
Hello David, It is only my own opinion but I believe the the Light Division of which the Rifles are part of should work alongside the RM’s and the Para’s as both the RM and Paras only have 2 deployable units now so I believe that a 3rd unit should be assigned to both so that they could deploy as a Brigade if necessary.
Hi Steven.
Actually 16 AA has had a 3rd battalion for a while, as one of the RGR Battalions is alongside 2 and 3 Para.
In the review also a 4th infantry battalion was added in Air Assault role. Forget which without checking.
Agree 3 Cdo should have a 3rd Commando, or even allocated Inf btn.
Hello Daniele, I had forgotten about the Gurkhas, their fitness levels are always good which give them the ability to slot into most area of operations.
Hi Daniele.
I think the 4th Para reserve Battalion is part f 16 AA..
Interested to know what the 4th regular Battalion is.
*1st Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment. Just found out the details.
Yes, of course. I recall the RIR have previous in the role too.
Yes, of course.
Though I don’t imagine for one moment it would ever deploy as a fully formed unit, but just IRs to the regular units.
See Daniele’s reply… it’s been done.
42 have four specialist squadrons now (see my post above). A lot of these functions were previously distributed between 40, 42, 43 and 45 Cdos, so it enables 40 and 45 to be at higher readiness, while secondary tasks like combat rescue, maritime security, force protection and supporting allies are now given ther own task oriented squadrons within 42 Cdo. 43 remains focused on protecting the deterrent and providing a centre of excellence for Mountain and Arctic Warfare and Sniper teams. Individual Bootnecks can of course rotate between the Cdos to have a range of experiences.
Hello James, As an old has-been it seemed to work a lot better with 3 Cdo’s and of course you could also deploy a brigade when push come to shove. I understand and to a point agree with the current specialization within the corps but it puts pressure on the 2 units who are left to front up any major deployments.
42’s location lends it’s self ideally for the fleet but I just feel that the Corps would be a better force with 3 Cdo’s units available to deploy as was the idea for quit some time.
I guess by specializing the Corps has kept its head above water so that the bean counters will find it hard to write them off.
I loved the “ maximising their interactions with this demanding environment” does everyone have to talk “weasel word” speak these days. What happened to plain English, just because pretension and crap statements ruled advertising, business and politics everyone now has to do it.
The rubbish that comes out of my mouth makes me cringe, but it’s expected by the tribe, when I try to use every day English like “We are going to kill some people doing it that way and we need to think about trying something else” people get all upset and get a snot on ( even if it’s true) and you have to go back to “ the risk of serous harm will need to be mitigated by a multi faceted and robust action plan, with ongoing monitoring of the impact ( AKA we are going to kill people if we don’t do something else).
😂