The contract will provide post-design services for armoured platforms including Bulldog, Warrior, Challenger 2, Challenger 3 when in service and other vehicles.

According to a contract award notice, the Defence Equipment & Support Land Equipment Vehicle Support Team, part of the Ministry of Defence, intends to award a single-source contract for up to 5 years plus two option single years (total maximum contract duration including options is 7 years) to Rheinmetall BAE Systems (RBSL) for provision of Post Design Services (PDS) activity for current in-service armoured platforms.

“This contract will provide PDS for armoured platforms including CVR(T), Bulldog, Warrior, Challenger 2, Challenger 3 (when in service), Challenger Driver Training Tank, Titan, Trojan, Terrier, AS90, CRARRV and Panther along with safety/In-Service management support for the above plus future developments of the above platforms.

It is considered that the award of the contract is excluded from the application of the UK Public Procurement Regulations pursuant to Regulation 7(1)(a) and 6(3A)(a) of the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations 2011 in order to protect UK essential security interests. Further, that this direct award can be made for Technical Reasons.”

Explaining why there was no competition, they add:

“RBSL are the Design Authority (DA) for these platforms and therefore have the essential technical data across all platforms, skills, experience and historical technical knowledge to deliver this requirement which they have built up over the 20+ years they have been supporting these MoD platforms.

As the DA, RBSL has a detailed understanding of the inherent design of each vehicle, understand the implications on the safe operability of the vehicles from any proposed design changes and can design modifications to each vehicle accordingly.

This knowledge and supporting data is critical to ensure the platforms remain safe by design and risk is ALARP. Without this data and technical know-how any modifications developed for these platforms by a third party would require considerable further work and an additional interface to build up the necessary background knowledge of each complete platform to ensure no unintended effects of each modification on other systems, from both an operational and safety perspective.

Any new Design Authority would need to reverse engineer each platform to ascertain the necessary background knowledge in order to endorse each vehicles Safety Case. This would come at considerable time and expense to provide the necessary confidence that the integrity of these platforms has not been compromised. This additional obligation would result in disproportionate technical and safety difficulties which would have an impact on the effectiveness of operations together with a disproportionate impact to MoD on time and cost.”

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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143 COMMENTS

    • Tbh the one that caught my eye was Panther, I was sure they’d all been removed from service and viewed as unsatisfactory.

      • From the Army’s website: “Panther is in widespread use with various commanders, sergeant majors, and liaison officers for armoured, armoured recce and armoured infantry units.
        This protected patrol vehicle is also used as the commander’s vehicle for engineer troops, anti-tank, mortar and supporting fire platoons.”

        • Though I agree with Dern. I too thought they’d been withdrawn with the likes of Husky and sold.

          The Army website? About as useful a source of accurate in depth info as a chocolate fireguard!

          • No they are around and still in service, used more as a support wagon and replaced the 101 as were more reliable and better.

          • I am making $92 an hour working from home. i was greatly surprised at the same time as my neighbour advised me she changed into averaging $ninety five however I see the way it works now. I experience mass freedom now that I’m my non-public boss. 
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        • The Panther fleet was put up for disposal by the MOD due poor reliability with other vehicles to take over roles !

          • Definitely not seen any around for yonks, I think I’ve seen Husky in service more recently than Panther (though come to think of it, haven’t seen any Husky’s in years either.)

      • Yes the whole fleet was put up for sale in 2018 for £450+K Each. As of 2021 they had still not been sold, no idea what going on with them at the moment, still hanging around waiting for someone to buy them I suppose.

      • Wiki says: ‘At end of April 2018, the UK Defence Equipment Sales Authority put the entire Panther 4×4 fleet up for sale with 395 vehicles available’. A service life of just 9-12 years. There is a good chance they would have been sold by now, but I have found no details of a sale.
        I am not sure what would have made them unsatisfactory, though – their spec was pretty good.

      • I was driving near Haltwhistle, just south of Hadrian’s Wall, yesterday (4 July) when I encountered a Panther escorting an Army 4 tonner. It had an Enforcer weapon station fitted and was heading up to the Military Road just south of the Wall.

      • It caught my eye too. With the Dusseldorf Rheinmetall connection the KF51 “Euro Tank” also called Panther came to mind. Then I remembered the Protected Patrol Vehicle.
        Interestingly, Rheinmetall list Challenger 2/3, CVR(T,) Bulldog and Warrior, along with Panther KF51 among their products. Tut tut.

        Challenger replacement has not been mentioned but I wonder if the decision has already been made behind closed doors. The EU Army, Euro Tank KF51. This “design support” announcement being one step closer to making the choice publicly acceptable.

  2. I thought Panther was sold off, I take it this is more of a maintenance contract rather then designing enhancements and upgrading the existing fleet of vehicles.

    • Maintenance is done by the User (Level 1) and REME (Level 2 and Level 3).

      PDS is basically modifications, but not to give additional capability – that would be an upgrade. They are mods to comply with changing legislation, maintain safety and to deal with obsolete spare parts. The mod kits or modified parts, when developed, would be fitted by REME (usually).

  3. My mate’s brother (skilled gunsmith) is building a “weapons specialist” Dalek – as you do. Now a few of those for the British Amy would give the Roooskies something to think about.

    On a serious note I think we need a sovereign capability, and not to have to rely on a German company for heavy armour design & build. It was the likes of Vickers/BAe etc. that had the original design authority & manufacturing design information – not Rheihnmetall. Why is the UK again just handing over and ceding control.

          1. USS Ford?
          2. Zumwalt
          3. XM 2001 Crusader SPH
          4. Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle
          5. Airborne Laser
          6. Joint Tactical Radio System
          7. RAH 66 Comanche Attack Helicopter

          I’m sure I could find a few more

          • The Comanche did look great mind, that ‘Cold War dividend’ at work again eh. Mind you the Cheyenne was my personal favourite another stunning if over complicated copter that failed to make it to production, yep the list is endless some good, some bad and some just plain ugly.

          • Well, if the Army buys the Bell 360 Invictus for its scout helicopter, at least we get something that looks like the Comanche even if it’s not a stealth design…

            Still sort of darkly amusing that the Comanche program took so long that it actually got a spate of high-budget flight simulator computer games before the aircraft was canceled. Has that happened for anything else?

          • Not only. The other LCS have cracks in aluminium hull that limits its velocity.

            And the ASW module do not work. USN discovered 20 years latter that LCS makes same noise as an aircraft carrier.

          • Zumwalt not too bad other than costing so much that they couldn’t afford the numbers to make its gun ammo affordable. A rather unique failure mode, to be sure. (I suppose that sort of happened with Vulcan and Blue Steel, but the aircraft was still fine with other weapons.)

            I’d add the Sergeant York AAA vehicle to the turkey list.

            One can draw a line between “canceled it because it was costing too much to develop into a fit working state (e.g., RAH 66, Sgt. York, ABL), or mostly worked but cost too much for the utility (Crusader, lots of US Army M16-replacements llike OICW, G11, XM8 rifle, M8 light tank…)” and then the dreaded “They built it in quantity, but it was seriously crap” which is fortunately somewhat rarer, but in recent years the Freedom class LCS might be an example!. Then there’s the “great, but unfortunately we no longer need it due to changing situation (e.g., lots of Mach 3 aircraft like Valkyrie and Rapier).

        • The US has had it’s fair share of issues getting new kit developed and online.
          The Zumwalt class destroyers and their Littoral Combat Ships (Not abandoned but are already being withdrawn from service) spring to mind for the Navy.
          Then you had the Comanche and VH-71 that flopped.
          For armoured vehicles, there was the Future Combat System and the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle.

          All of these had billions of dollars sunk into them and then abandoned.

        • German every time….Neff ovens, Bosch drills, V2 rockets, Tiger, tanks, asprin….if its German it works.

          • mmm perhaps a touch sensitive there – should stopped at Bosch drills…oh and maybe asprin…

          • You might want to think again if you believe the German mechanical superiority meme. Even the Tiger you mentioned was a basket case for reliability. To say nothing of BMW and VW

          • Well my son runs a petrol Golf with 200k miles on the clock. Runs like a sewing machine 🙂

          • And who do we have to thank for VW ? The British Army 1945 restarted the plants and production 20,000 Beatles later in 1949 handed the company back to the wee Germans and thanks to Monty and co your son has a golf 👍🏻

            British Army #1 undisputed heavyweight champions of the world 1707-present 😎😃👍🏻

            🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

          • Indeed! Germany has us to thank for their post war constitution too. Pity we can’t do a modern one for ourselves 😉

          • my grandad shot a tiger in the arse in his crappy ickle Sherman. and didn’t cheat on his emissions. must be so proud your son drives a Hitler champion. does Dad drive a Audi. as you sound a cock

          • My BMW’s were hardly a case example of reliability, my current VW Tiguan (brand new) plastics cracked in the heat !

          • If only, Bosch is very often rubbish now my jigsaw stopped working in little more than a year so replaced with a far superior hitachi ( expensive mind) and my old oven was a joke, bought on the impression of reliability to replace a 20 year old Philips that still worked, it was far more expensive than many competitors with less functionality. Yet the light went inside a year and the oven itself stopped working altogether in 3. Replaced it with a Hotpoint far superior better built and technologically looks about 20 years more modern and capable. Bosch in non motoring anyway is now decidedly mixed in its quality I have an old drill that is still great but so much modern stuff is now produced on the cheap in Poland and the like and reliability has declined substantially overall and seems to be living simply off of a name. Ryobi is far better a manufacturer of power tools and generally Japanese manufacturers exceed German in reliability stakes even if Sony has gone completely down the pan in non pro stuff.

            Oh and more Tiger tanks were lost through break down ( up to 50% at any one time inoperative) than through battle damage they were much overrated beyond their armament and Panthers weren’t exactly great either having a habit of losing their tracks. And taking of break downs their jet engines were barely able to last out a week they were so unreliable, the MetroVick circa 1942 was more powerful and more reliable yet was deemed not reliable enough to use in the Meteor, but was the inspiration for post war designs. So much of German technological invincibility was myth often inspired by those wanting to offer up excuses for poor performance against them, but the Germans certainly have exploited it since very much due to our own pathetic failure to exploit our own abilities post war when you could sell for years 30s inspired cars and motor bikes in droves due to a lack of any competition and failed to invest. Rant over except to say their rockets were pretty good 🚀🧨

          • There are 2 grades of power tools: DIY tools which are designed for 13 hours continuous use and then go phut. And the robust tools for industrial use which last much longer. You are better off getting the latter if you use them a lot. I have found that Swiss tools are the best for quality.

          • You need to distinguish between the professional ranges of tools (blue) and the domestic ranges (green) with Bosch.

            The green tools have always been pretty rubbishy and are designed down to a price point and a drill is designed to drill 20 holes as its lifetime design. The blue tools are a bit variable. At one time, without question, you would have gone for a blue planer or jigsaw from Bosch without thinking.

            Most of the proper professional stuff these days is battery powered so there is no longer the R&D investment or volume in mains powered tools that there once was apart from circular saws (dust extraction) or planers where they use too much battery power to be viable for continuous working.

            Although if you really wind the clock back Elu was better before DeWalt and Black and Decker get their hands on them. Proper Swiss quality tools!

          • Not my German bathroom scale: it stopped, so I had it open and I was shocked by the rubbish design and construction. Got a Chinese one: superior in every respect. And I am a professional senior engineer – I know what I am talking about.

        • America, makes the MOD look like amateurs in the art of poor procurement and pissing money away on things that never work. They have so much money to spend efficiency is just not a word they use. There is a reason why they are still building Burke’s 34 years after the first keel was laid down and that’s not through choice but bad procurement.

    • At this point, I’m not sure BAE can be considered British anymore – they’re too big, and Rheinmetall BAE Systems is based in Telford and already handling the Challenger 2 LEP.

      • Bae is British at least as things stand most big companies are multinational these days let’s be honest but the management of it is British (for now). Trouble is Bae rarely hang on that long in partnerships they prefer to invest in the US and I suspect this partnership is merely to be a hand over job until it is sold off completely to its partner otherwise why not combine with its Swedish or US vehicle interests? A sudden sell off to a German Company would have looked terrible politically but a slow manoeuvre towards it will barely be noticed by the British public I suspect while coordination in the meantime on remaining British designed kit as detailed above sensible no doubt until it becomes an outpost of modified German products.

        • BAEs is now a multinational operation and no longer classed as British, Losing that Pissing contest over the MRA4, which in turn they Grounded the Harrier Fleet and stopped production of the Gearboxes for the Invincible class. that also cost their approved bidder slot on UK mod tenders, and now have to be a Joint Bidder.

      • Yep, there is the problem. A controlling interest and inheriting “Design Authority” for those products.

  4. Great photo. The Challenger is a beast. Give any Russian a smelly pant day seeing one of them charging down on you!
    We need to Upgrade All the tanks not just 148. It’s such a small number.
    I know theoretically, as claimed by many, but not me, the 120mm rifled gun is useless and blah blah but what’s it shooting against and in what number considering the current fiasco? Surely it’s still a viable weapon or is it simply about the ammo supply?
    AA

    • I think the ammo as much as anything it just damages flexibility on a large scale. That said 120mm now is decidedly lightweight as good as that gun once was. Sad that once again as soon as we produce a fantastic weapon or piece of equipment it stays in use for so long that we never set out on an endeavour to create the next big advancement and the moment we do have to replace it the only alternatives are foreign. Talk about a victim of your own success eh. We used to produce the best guns in the World yet again whoever mentions the old 17 pounder as arguably the best anti tank weapon of the war when German 88s get all the hype in that role.

        • Hi Dern, how are tricks? Apparently they disliked the recoil of the17dr in a tank turret and that the 75mm standard pop gun fired faster. Now that does seem nuts when one considers the 75mm couldn’t penetrate a panzer v/vi front armour.

          Thy also claimed the HE shell on the 17dr was less powerful or capable than the 75- unsure how true that was.

          • Not bad.

            Not just the recoil, apparently it was also the size and lack of accuracy they didn’t like. But they didn’t choose the 75mm over it; the 17lber was considered as a replacement for the 75mm on m4, and the 3inch gun on M10, but was found unsatisfactory due to the above mentioned issues and (to the US) unacceptably cramped turret conditions.

            So the 76mm eventually was introduced to replace the 75 on the M4, and replace the 3inch M10’s with the M18’s (and later the 90mm on the M36).

            The 75mm did have better preformance in HE than the 76 (though I don’t know about 17lber) because it was lower velocity which meant the shell didn’t need to be as sturdy, which in turn meant more space for explosives inside it. (And the 75mm was no pop gun, it was selected because it had considerably better AT preformance than the 57 and 37mm guns that where largely in service at the time (Including German tanks) and was so appreciated that the RAC actually developed their own 75mm gun to replace the 57’s on many of their tanks after North Africa). It actually could penetrate (in theory) the frontal armour of a Panzer VI at very close ranges, especially once HVAP became available.

            But even ignoring that it isn’t even that nuts; Tigers and Panthers where very rare (I believe there are only 2-3 confirmed tank on tank engagements between American tanks and Tigers, emphasis on confirmed), even a Stug or a Panzer IV was relatively rare: the most common target an American or British tank would engage in WW2 was dismounted infantry, followed by soft skinned vehicles.

          • Yes, that was true about the lower HE content on the 17 pounder HE shell. To solve the problem with hindsight is blatantly obvious, but! To maintain the shells integrity being fired by a very high velocity propellent, that gave the shell a high muzzle velocity. They made the shell’s case much thicker, as they found the thinner one was fracturing after firing. This caused it to break apart or track away from the gun’s boresight. The thicker case cut down on the internal volume, hence the smaller HE charge. What they should have down was cut down on the amount of propellent in the cartridge. Then recalibrated the sight’s reticule to account for the lower muzzle velocity. Therefore, they wouldn’t have needed to make the shell case stronger and maintain the HE content. A cartridge containing a lower content propellent was introduced just before the war’s end.

            There was also a problem with the amour piercing discarding sabot (APDS) round. It could penetrate over 250mm at 1000m. but over 500m it became less accurate. IT could still smash through the frontal amour of a Tiger 1 with ease. Though I don’t believe it was ever recorded penetrating a Tiger 2 frontally. Though when fired from the lower velocity QF77 gun, used in the Comet, it was still very accurate up to 1000m

    • Probably because the contract covers i”n service” vehicles and Ajax is still lamentably from from being that…

      • As stated above that will if it ever enters service be handled by General Dynamics not RBSL who will be responsible for all the legacy stuff much of which came out of Bae and it’s long acquired companies most notably Vickers and Alvis, such lovely historic names to contour with.

  6. Can someone explain this to me? Sounds like a contract to manage the keeping of these aged platforms going somehow when they break down because components that are no longer available fail….

    • It’s a catchall term for in-service engineering support to the fleet managers:

      Post Design Services (PDS) are formally contracted for during the In-Service phase of the equipment life cycle. PDS can comprise of a plethora of activities designed to maintain the equipment’s capability through the In-Service phase. Examples of PDS activities are:

      • Configuration Management
      • Obsolescence Management
      • Technical reporting
      • Function and Design reporting
      • Engineering Surveys
      • Modification Implementation
      • Design/Prototype testing
      • New Component Design and Testing
      • Technical Documentation
      • Onsite Training

      • I wonder if some of these depleted component stocks can be produced via 3D printing. A lot of vehicles could remain useable and probably improved no doubt this way and offer great savings in the initial required over production of parts for a possible 30 plus year storage life. Just don’t tell the Russians.

      • Great answer James. As an Equipment Support Manager for tank derivatives in 2002/3 I had a dedicated civil servant (PDS manager) who liased out to Industry who had the PDS contract. For our more elderly vehicles the focus was generally limited to managing obsolescence in components, sub-assemblies and assemblies and doing safety mods. Quite interesting doing that for the Cent BARV fleet as the vehicles had been gun tanks in the late 1940s and were converted to BARVs in 1961!

        • Thanks Graham, it’s these ‘boring’ contracts that make the UK armed forces function better than others. Russia buys lots of kit but the support is often wanting. With the focus on readiness in the IR and DCP, I suspect we need to invest more in PDS, training and the like to ensure rapid availability.

  7. Just embarrassing…the MOD needs to buy off the shelve and proven products as the Ajax programme shows…they are simply no good at project management. 3.5 billion spent. The Leopard and Abrams have had two upgrades and the Challenger is currently obsolete. Ridiculous state of affairs which will be seriously exposed in a war time setting.

    • Think obsolete for the Challenger is a little strong, it’s still a very capable machine especially against the other MBT’s it’s likely to actually go up against.

      When fitted with the TES package, it’s arguable one of the most well protected MBT’s around.

      A new smoothbore gun, a new powerplant and a hard kill APS would easily bring it up to par with the Leopard (which has it’s own issues) and the Abrams.

    • Your assumption that other forces do not have issues bringing kit into service is wrong. All countries that develop armoured vehicles have had major issues with lots of projects. I doubt any project has made it from design to service without having major issues crop up. Buying off the shelf is seen as some kind of magic solution when it is not. It works for some high end aircraft etc when requirements are exactly the same. For vehicles not so much.
      British projects should not be written off. The main issue with Ajax has been the gap left from making the last vehicles to enter service to now. This left any company with skills to go under. I don’t think the new company general Dynamics U.K. should have been given such a free rein on the project. I would not assume any future vehicle development would be a disaster. New design and new build is something the British can excel at.
      Now if a steady stream of orders could be forth coming it lets companies bid and develop skills and a workforce can move between companies that are awarded a steady stream of projects.

      • Very true.

        The point I made the other day was that there are a huge number of cost effective procurement successes.

        Things like NLAWS that came in on time and on budget and has been thoroughly tested by that nice Mr Zelenski. Apparently he thinks it is rather effective against Russian tanks?

        • They are very effective against tanks, but only if you can get quite close to them.

          In combined arms, that opportunity should be very rare. Thankfully for Ukraine (and us), the Russians suck at combined arms.

          • Agreed.

            However, my Crystal ball forsees NLAWS-ER becoming a thing…..

            The guidance/warhead/UI seems to be fine so all it needs is more range……

            Don’t ask me for lottery numbers……

      • Some good points made…but we are below critical mass and way behind on vehicle procurement. The Ajax programme is an issue with suspension causing motion sickness for the troops. Our Challenger tank is 2 refits below par and we are only acquiring 148. We can produce the items needed but currently its not cost effective.

      • Major issue with Ajax and yes there are many, but the main problem is the Vibration and noise. this is down to the lack of bracing and damping in the Hull. now to fix all the installed kit has to be removed and the bracing and damping plates welded into the Hull. next problem all the internal kit is designed around that empty hull space. which now has bracing and plates fitted and the kit doesnt fit. and this is why its taking so long. there is a Upgraded Hull with the damping work down. flying around the proving ground, but has no kit, they want to complete the Hull work before redesigning the internal kit.

      • Ajax. Gap from making the last vehicle? GDUK (brand new company) had never made an AFV before, even if their US parent had.

        Job should have gone to BAE but they had a skills gap – last AFVs they built in UK was Trojan and Titan in 2002/3.

          • Thanks Finney. I had forgotten about Terrier (60 vehs). Though Wiki gives different dates: ‘Manufacture of the first TERRIER production hull began on 27 January 2010 at the company’s Newcastle plant.

          • Wiki will be right! Ordering Terrier, a very bespoke vehicle on a unique chassis, while failing to upgrade Challenger or Warrior or any of the other big fleets, resulting in the closing of the plant, will surely be looked back on as one of the stupidest and most avoidable mistakes in Army procurement.

          • Too true. The army used to be very good at doing upgrades. look at the Wiki piece on Chieftain – so many different Marks during its 30 year life.
            AFVs always got a Base Overhaul roughly every 7 years which was when the major upgrades also happened. These upgrades were done in-house by REME Base workshops (later called ABRO and then later again, Babcocks) so no work for BAE there. Only hyper-big upgrades went to BAE.

            Terrible that Challenger, Warrior and AS90 etc never got significant upgrades.

    • You are casting that line long and deep, Fishing for attention their Buttercup. Challenger Still Holds a 0 Loss in combat versus other MBT. Something the Leopard has been exposed badly and the Abrams isn’t clean either. maybe is was that Good it didnt need a upgrade every 5 years untill its nearly right

      • Not sure of your ‘Buttercup’ comment. Yes the Challenger has proven itself in the past but the point Im making is that comparative MBTs have had not one but two upgrades.

  8. Why bother with Warrior and Bulldog, they are being retired though Ajax is over due and not working.

  9. Interesting fluff article in the Daily Mail regards the next Tory leader with Ben Wallace in the lead, if he does replace BJ, how do you all think this would impact the Uks defence spending?

    • Somewhere between slim to none. I don’t think Boris is going to go. The tories always have this problem of wanting a new leader. Within a few months of getting a new leader the rumblings of discontent will start again

    • Issue is we didnt vote for Ben Wallace at the last election. if the tory party wants a new leader. fine. but the public voted for the fella to do the job after Cameron and May screwed the pooch. Untill labour gets a grip very little option, i am happy to vote Liberals at local level, but they made a mess when they were in cahoots with Cameron. and not accepting the public vote on Brexit, is undemocratic and yet they are happy to use the same system. wait till these Local bye elections are done and the Liberals keep spending on vanity projects rather than local services. there all crap and none is better they are all as bad.

      • Re Liberals.
        That is assuming you do not see what happened as a Fascist coup via dirty referendum which is a common Liberal perspective. Then it is your democratic duty to oppose it.

      • You don’t vote for party leaders in a GE you vote for your local MP, they decide what party (if any) to be a member of and vote for its leader.
        There is no democratic deficit in changing PM without an election, it’s very commonplace.

    • I doubt it. Without a funding uplift there is little wiggle room in any of the armies vehicle projects. Just now it’s boxer and ajax(pending dec 22 decision). Then I think challenger 3 and AS90 are next. Then bulldog. As large as the budget is there still seems to never be enough.
      I think the U.K. should just try to find enough money for some long barrel 155mm. Be it truck mounted, M777 towed. Main point is it has to be cheap and shipped to Estonia ASAP.

      • Uplift?!!! There was £23bn uncommitted procurement spend in the Army’s ten year equipment plan at the start of the year. How much freaking wiggle room do they need!

        • When you place that across the entire Army which will include everything from Pensions to Housing. that £23b will disappear. without as much as a pair of boots for the dogs.

      • The decision on AS90 is expected later this decade, around 2026 I think. It’s replacement is supposed to reach IOC in 2029. Plenty of time for different options to be considered. The recent 2.5% announcement gives no new money until 2026 so I doubt anything will be brought forward.

      • Lots of potential options in the future but not many if they are needed in haste. I really like the look of rheinmettal’s new long barrelled howitzer both on the hx3 and tracked chassis as a step up from vehicles like archer.

    • The M109A7 are only half new build, they are taking the casemate and gun off the older M109’s and bolting it to a Bradley chassis. Besides a slight performance improvement its mainly to deal with obsolesce of the M109 carriage and its lack of parts commonality with any other US army vehicles.

      Theres also a seperate BAE development program to design a new gun firing rocket assisted shells that would replace the casemate on the M109A7 but I am dubious how widespread its introduction would be beyond a specialist resource, with the barrel going from 38 calibres to 58 calibres its now 30ft long and twice the length of the vehicles body. It would do okay in a desert but its now got all the logistic and transport issues of a HGV.

      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Extended_Range_Cannon_Artillery_%28ERCA%29_during_a_test_March_30_at_U.S._Army_Yuma_Proving_Ground.jpg/1024px-Extended_Range_Cannon_Artillery_%28ERCA%29_during_a_test_March_30_at_U.S._Army_Yuma_Proving_Ground.jpg

    • If you liked that you should try meme the left on youtube. But don’t watch while eating or drinking.

    • Ah, yes. July 4th, the date that separates out why the Canadians didn’t need to go to war over slavery and even the French can be accommodated without bloodshed, why they don’t starve themselves to afford healthcare, why their police don’t undertake 1,000 extra-judicial executions every year, why their children have rights afforded by a UN convention, why even Americans hold them up as models of politeness.

      That’s what they got for listening to slave-owning twenty somethings instead of the Germanic rantings of a lunatic King. July 4th. Without it, America would be a warmer Canada. Happy Birthday, USA.

    • Ah yes the legacy tank the Germans are working on replacing! That would be a good move wouldn’t it?🙄

  14. This a point of tank and armoured vehicle suppose to be tested in the first place and with this Israeli explodin armour deffence that the challenger 3 is getting I think 300million wasted again keep 225 challenger 2 tanks put the Israeli thing on them al and start spending the money on what we really need I’d spend that 300million on getting Trafalgar class going it won’t cost that much as they got plenty of life left in them and use same sonar and firepower as th astute which we only have 4 astute now and we need better air deffence than the sky scabre crap we need 14 Hunter killers and I would buy two of the new German design with AIP the days of nucular power has gone except in a trident sub obviously axax program disaster the loyal wing man we pulled out of so 5.5billion onaxax 300million on loyal wingman we just keep on wasting money it like the uk goverment is hiding the money for their own pocket why else would they back Boris johnson as he is killing our country

    • Ageing vehicles need engineering support (PDS as described by James F), as do ageing aircraft and ships, in fact more so than equipment in the first flush of youth.

      £300m over 5 years is £60m per year spent on 12 different vehicle types. I worked in DE&S – believe me that is not a fortune!

    • The Trafalgar class submarines are at the end of there life and that it is it. The only one is service is 31 years old (Ironically older than Challenger 2) not sure were this idea comes from that you can just magically extended the life of a nuclear submarine

    • Challenger 2 have a rifled gun for which no one makes any rounds anymore.
      The Israeli thing is not explosive armour but an anti-missile system as such it has anti missile radars and those need energy so the tank energy system needs to be revamped.
      With a new gun you need a new fire control system and new modern sights.
      I don’t think it is possible to be less expensive.

      • BAe still make the Charm 3 APFSDS rounds for it, plus the training rounds. It was the HESH and Smoke that was stopped being produced, until a firm in Belgium started up a production line.

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