Royal Navy protects world’s mightiest warship

When the air wing doesn’t exist anyway it hardly matters. A handful of jets is not a game changer. Short-ranged limited weapon outfit.. a bad setup all the way around. Unfortunately there is no easy fix.

A handful of jets changed the game in 1982.

Well said Dave – that and an excellent AAM system.

Sadly it did not. It demonstrated the limitations of VSTOL. Range and payload in the case of the Harrier. Look at how the Argentines sunk the Sheffield. All the information is there on open source. Both sides have published in various forms. Maps of the aircraft routes and written accounts. In short three aircraft types took part. Etendards, C130 and a Neptune. For me the key aircraft is the Neptune. Retired from US service progressively in the mid to late 60s. The final reserve squadron stood down in 1970. 12 years later a Neptune shadowed the task force staying just out of range of the Harrier. That one aircraft that was coming into service at the end of WW2 and 12 years after retirement from US service, was a lesson of what we were deficient. CAP with range, and AEW.
Ironically had we still had the old Ark Royal, with standard mix of F4, Buccaneer and Ganet we would I feel have not lost any shops to the Exocet. With the added bonus that both F4 and Buccaneer could have provided credible ground support.

So, if we did not have Harriers, would we have succeeded?

Without the Harrier we would have had no air cover whatsoever. So the balance of probability would suggest failure if not much greater casualties in men and materials.
My point is with the older Ark Royal and the carrier mix of F4, Buccaneers and Ganet AEW we would have lost a lot less men an materials. As a result of the Harriers poor range the ships ofthe task force had to position itself some distance from the islands. The Harrier had to fight its air battles over the islands. It did not have the range to fight in the air gap west of the islands. In short it was not and was never intended to be an interdiction aircraft. The Argentines had a poor mix of A4, Daggers, Neptune’s, and used them to great effect. All three types were well past their sell by dates. Successful in engaging over twenty times surface Fleet targets to varying degrees. As well as turning San Carlos into Bomb Alley.
With a proper air wing we would have lost a lot lost materials, but more importantly less men.

My point is, the handful of jets were a game changer
You just agreed

That wasn’t hard really.

Not hard to agree at all. Something is better than nothing. It was an agreements to a hypothetical question. I would by intrested in your opinion to my hypothesis that a carrier wing of F4, Buccaneers and Ganet would have saved lives.

Undoubtably.
The only consideration is – would they have been launchable in the sea conditions?

I have read comments that they would have been too rough on occassion.
I would like some authoritative documentation about sea conditions and launching of conventional aircraft.
There are times when even larger USN carriers cannot operate aircraft when Sea Harriers could.

Not sure about weather parameters for large carriers. I have experience of the seas around the South Atlantic. As part of Operation Journeyman in late 77, I can say we never experienced any horrendous weather. There was an almost ever present swell however. Quite large at times.
My knowledge of weather for carriers is as I say limited. I know the wind over the bow must exceed 20knots. It can be achieved by power or nature, normally combination of both. The killer I also believe is roll, which should not exceed 2 degrees.

Even if the RN had a longer ranged P.1154 fighter version of the Harrier, it might still have lost the Sheffield.
The Sheffield was supposed to be one of AAW vessels of the fleet which it Sadly failed to live up to be.
The AAF jets did not need to travel very far to release the Excets. The task group had only limited AEW, and accept for a few Sea Wolf armed vessels almost no missle defence.
I agree those carriers were too small, and be at least 40Kt
All due, to the previous Labour Gov. obsession of having aircraft carriers Not being built too big!

Not sure what your definition of not flying very far is. The attack is well documented in open source materials. There are detailed maps of the attack including AC and vessel positions. As is the release point of the exocets. Which was 20 to 30 miles from the Sheffield. The Etendards had flown for around one hour at very low level, popping up only briefly to get a radar attack picture. An estimate of distance flown is around 600 miles. Making a round trip of 1200 miles.
On AEW it was not limited. It was non existent.

And he’s back folks, the Anglophobe with nothing good to say about the UK’s armed forces but constantly stalks a Uk armed forces news outlet. Come on Ester, where do you come from that is without fault so we can all see how things should be done?

30 jets, 48 within year or so, all fifth generation, those jets can be moved onto the ships air wing at a moment’s notice…it’s still a better navel aviation capability than any of the UKs possible opponents and only bettered by the US. As the UK cannot afford to run 2 CATOBAR carriers and a permanent airwing…it works very well, and you actually need to measure yourself against your potential enemies…….not the richest nation on earth that has a power greater population and wealth and also happens to be your ally.

Royal navy carriers like you say can be loaded with f 35 in very shot time . Correct like you say nobody but the yanks can better that .

Yaaaaawn……had enough of Navy Lookout and trolling on that site saddo? Back here now, getting yourself all flustered when trying to comment, as never knowing the subject matter must hit you hard, when others do!

Ah the military expert is back. Said no one ever.

Esteban, about as wanted as a fart at a funeral

Still got that chip on your shoulder huh?

Mr ruskie I live in Turkey 9 mouth of each year . I’ve mentioned this before heads are going to roll at high level in the Turkish military for buying a 3rd rate not fit for purpose S400… Within months of delivery the Turks soon found out what a over hyped lemon they had purchased. Heads are going to roll behind closed doors after Israel went public with how easy they defeated the S 400 yet the Turkish military still bought the Russian junk . What the Turks believe somebody was taking Russian government back handers to buy the Russian system ..

Exactly. A technology leap can be metaphorically equated to a physical leap over a chasm. There could be an uncomfortable moment sensing nothing but air underneath your feet, and a sense of relief upon successfully reaching the other side. An $800+B budget facilitates risk taking. Many more fiscally constrained militaries by necessity must choose a lower risk, largely evolutionary vs. revolutionary systems development approach.

Indeed, this was the exact approach of the RN in 1906 it knew it was resetting the board with dreadnought and was effectively making its vast advantage in pre dreadnoughts redundant ( doing the same with every other navy) betting on itself that it could simply out produce everyone else in dreadnoughts, and they did by building and commission 36 of the dreadnought type battles ships.

😁

Sorry, no clue. Surprising, if indeed the case.

I was in the USMC for 10 years and can confirm that the Royal Marines have a stellar reputation in the US. Interestingly there is a permanent RM SNCO staff slot at the USMC Officer Candidates School, they usually serve as PTIs. That said the two forces are very different in scale and character and direct comparisons are problematic. After much thought I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s best to admire the USMC and RM for their own strengths and not to directly compare the two forces. The Royal Marines are definitely awesome, no question.

The clue is in my name. In my day the appointments were known as exchange drafts. So the Quantico PTI billet was for a Royal Marine. 45 Cdo had a USMC Captain/Major as a company Commander. There was a USMC pilot with 3 BAS. CTCRM had a USMC master Sergeant. An RM pilot was flying Cobras. RMs also served at Lejune and Paris Island.
As of today there is a Royal Navy pilot flying F18 with the US Navy. I believe the exchange is still ongoing.

I got to experience the RM PTI when I was a candidate at USMC OCS in the early 90s:) The Quantico PTI billet is still ongoing, I talked to a very polite RM officer recently at a big conference/expo in the DC area who confirmed it.

I don’t suppose you can remember the guys name from the 90s. I was a serving SNCO at that time. As the Royal Marines are a small Corps at just over 7000. There is a fair chance I may know him.

It’s been far to long for me to remember names unfortunately. I did the junior\senior option so I was there during the summers of 92 and 93 and there were different PTIs each time for me. One of them was promoted during one of my 6 week increments, I think in 92, but again it’s been a long time:) As an aside, while we didn’t do any club work in OCS I have since gained a little proficiency with indian/military clubs. Did you do them at all at PTI school? The PTI badge is crossed clubs, right?

I was never a PTI. Although I knew a lot of the PT branch as friends. That was fostered by the fact that I always kept myself at quite a high level of physical fitness. Also I was a half decent runner at long distances. Half and full marathon being my bread and butter. A lot of PTIs were similarly orientated. Also Triathlon was on the rise at the time. Again many PTIs morphed into that field.
As for the Indian clubs we were encouraged in training to try our hand having had a deceptive display making it look easy. It was a miracle no one was injured. I tried a few times later on as a Corporal and a SNCO. Age did not further my talents. On reflection I can’t juggle two tennis balls, so stepping up to Indian clubs was an act of lunacy on my part.
The PT branch is indeed crossed clubs. As an aside the unit PT is often in jocular or social setting as ” Clubs ”
IE. In a bar, “Your round Clubs get the beers in. ”
The PT branch is one of the smaller branches in the Royal Marines. So if you play sports at a reasonable level you soon get to know them all with a few exceptions.

PTIs are definitely one thing I wish the US military would embrace fully. You Brits seem to pay a lot more attention to sports science, much to your credit. There is a relatively new and similar program in the USMC called Force Fitness Instructor (FFI), but it seems more like a “B” billet than a full-time specialization.

Working with clubs is super interesting. I’m not very coordinated so it has taken some time, but luckily I haven’t given myself any head injuries…They are not well known in the US at all, so I had to follow along as best as I could through YouTube videos and old books. I can do many of the movements, but tying them all together into a coherent routine without stopping between moves still eludes me. I’ll keep cracking away at it. Doing clubs is good for my aging shoulders, especially after I do pull-ups. I am happy to say I can still get 20 dead hang pull-ups on a good day. We never did them on a “beep” like you guys though.

I think we all can suffer a bit from rose tinted glasses as we look back. As well as the green eyed envy looking at other Marine Corps. For us we always thought the Yanks had it all and a spare one just in case. In particular for me the fire support available to MEU was breathtaking. Never in our wildest dream could we expect that unless we were working alongside you guys. Then we had an ANGLICO attached.
The dedicated PT staff is a great idea for me. They have an ongoing teaching role as well. It’s not hard to put an exercise regime for morning PT together, done wrong though and repetitive strain injury could result. That’s one of the areas PT staff earn their keep. Education at all levels. Particular on Command courses to ensure latest thinking is imparted.
Much of the other stuff we did right was hard earned. Like allowing guys to drink during physical exercise. Hard to believe in my early days a nine mile speed march in full kit and weapons was done in 90 minutes. Still the same today. Now they are encouraged to drink throughout where we were forbidden. After some serious dehydration incidents and a death here and there, we saw the light.
A lot of PT is now done in quality training shoes that are issued. In my days we had cheap Wallmart type sneakers. Obviously boots are as always worn for marches and assault course type work. Even the boots have evolved however. One small thing that came in during my time was units would be loaned a Physiotherapist for Norway deployments where guys learned to ski. As you could imagine injuries were hourly occurrences. 250 fit guys learning to ski made for a big sick parade. Took thirty years but eventually we got a Physiotherapist on loan. Very often a reservist.

🥱🥱🥱ZZZZZ, such a bore.

Is that your fantasy worked where you are a US citizen, served in the military and know the subjects you cry about? That fantasy world you mean, thought so.

Please, do explain how the floating coal fire is better than the QE class: I’d love to hear this.

CNN.

Mr stupid you never learn anything. foreign navies like Russia . China . even S Korea will be 90 % hype and fairy tales and 10 % reality remember Putin’s and Russia’s super weapons !

Who is she?

Used to live nextdoor to my auntie Doris in Leeds Dave….

She was a heavy set lady, but saying she carried 24 Trident D5 is just cruel….

😁

I am from the other side of the hill.
I thought all lasses from over there were like that.

Not Cumbria?

Too far North, proper cold up there

🤣
I think it stands for Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles, again I think Trident is capable of carrying up to 14🚀
Cheers

I know, but for the purposes of the conversation, one boat’s ability to destroy most countries all on its own was enough.

Absolutely👍

Sorry Ian, did not see your post immediately. 😳👍

No worries!🤗

So, have we decided which is the most powerful warship?
A carrier or a SSBN?

SSBN by the proverbial country mile; however, it is all over but the Requiem if they launch ‘in anger.’

Rechecked this per Wiki, actually Minuteman III has evidently been armed w/ a single warhead since 2014, in order to comply w/ provisions of New START Treaty. It is an open question how long the treaty will remain in effect (nominally 2026). Mad Vlad could presumably revoke treaty on any given day, on a whim.