The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that the UK will spend £2.35 billion to deliver the new European Common Radar System Mk2 for the Royal Air Force’s Typhoon fleet.
Responding to questions from Conservative MP James Cartlidge (South Suffolk), Minister Luke Pollard said that the radar forms part of the Eurofighter Phase 4 Enhancement programme being jointly delivered by the UK, partner nations and Eurofighter industry partners.
Pollard stated that “a number of contracts for development have been committed, with production and integration contracts to follow, which will deliver the capability into service by the end of the decade.”
Cartlidge had also asked whether the Ministry planned to accelerate procurement of the radar and whether discussions had been held with the incoming Chief of the Air Staff on doing so. Pollard said “there have not yet been any discussions” on the issue but confirmed that “opportunities are being explored to accelerate development and testing.”
The European Common Radar System Mk2 is being developed by Leonardo UK in Edinburgh and Luton as the RAF’s next-generation electronically scanned array (E-scan) radar. It is designed to give Typhoon advanced electronic warfare and air dominance capabilities, allowing the aircraft to detect, track and target multiple threats in contested environments.
The Entire Inventory of Typhoons ?
I thought just 40 or so.
If 100 then that’s £23 million each but 40 would be £57 Million each.
(or thereabouts).
How much is a T4 Typhoon then ?
How much did we pay to develop it on top?
£1billion per meeting.
Ha, In my younger days I did a IIM coarse, one of the first things I learned was that the UK was stuck in the past with Meetings and Boardroom Antiquated practices. That was over 40 years ago yet here we are, a Nation of Talkers still sat around a big table, all talk and no action (mostly)
Maybe these big decisions would be a fair bit cheaper without all the meetings.
Wow, that sounds like a meeting for the ages.
You could get some pretty terrific food and wine with an ulimited budget like that.
Maybe have one of those fancy pants ultra expensive D&D gaming tables as well just for fun.
Entire walls filled with 8K tv’s showing footage of the planning meeting for the meeting they’re at.
I’d actually quite enjoy being in the planning team trying to spend £1B on a meeting.
It could actually end up being so stupid that it’s actually impressive.
Sounds like a Celebrity Big Brother Episode (no real celebs in either case !)
Honestly, do adults actually watch that Shite ?
About 4 bob at the time !
Seriously though, no wonder we can’t afford any new ones, just think how much a Tempest will be ?
Especially if fitted with a Laser !!!
Do you ride bikes DM ?
So far just two others here ride bikes, It’s a little lonely here for us Bikers.
Mate…no. Apart from being driven through the streets of Rome perched on the handlebars of a 50cc or something Scooter my Cousin was driving, neither of us wearing a helmet! They do crazy things like that there, and I was an idiot agreeing to it.
Cars all the way for me mate, but I can see the advantages of both to be fair.
Aah yes I remember you in that scene in Roman Holiday.
😀
Hi Spy, I’m not well watched regards films I’m afraid, so I’ve not the foggiest.
I’ll have to look out of curiosity.
Ha, Whole wars have been fought over the correct riding gear !!!
From the point of view of having fun, I’d say bikes win hads down.
I see figures just to develop Tempest at 10 or 12 Billion.
Yes mate, there’s not enough money. What there is HMG channels into the pockets of industry, what kit the military end up with is a mere byproduct of that.
You’re not expecting a committment to a number surely.
I think the £2.35bn figure is for the whole phase 4 enhancement which includes the new radar. Along with lots of other upgrades.
If it is just 40 the. At £57 million a pop it’s a bit expensive it’s nearly the price of 20 newbuilds.
You forget that around £1 billion is for the meetings to discuss which individual airframe is first, and then of course second and then…..We could build new but that would mean an order. God forbid!!
All 107 will get the phase 4 upgrades which is designed to work with all available radars , as far as we know at the moment the new radar will only be for the 40 tranche 3 jets.
Cheers, so am I correct it’s £2.35 Billion for just the 40 Typhoons then ?
I suspect the £2.35bn includes the phase 4 updates as well , so 107 typhoons get phase 4 but only 40 the new radar, but can’t be sure as usual nothing is clear
I think the 2.35 cover a whole host of other upgrades as well as the radar. But a radar of this level of capability is expensive.
I wonder how this will play out. The Türkiye deal seems to involve transfer and / or repatriation of Omani and Quatari Typhoons, and any remaining RAF T1 planes. I think the Türkiye deal commits to immediate delivery of 12. If these were T1s or take from those repatriated for upgrade, then the RAF numbers of upgradable Typhoons might increase.
Where have you seen that Turkey will be taking the T1’s ?
All I see is speculation and wild guesses other than the 20 New Builds confirmed aerlier on here and a few other sites.
Any Bikes ?
Not saying they will. Just speculating. There are 4 in the Falklands so i’m thinking there will be another 8 that can be made saleable. Would be a good outcome.
The original idea.was that Turkiye would get a mixed order of 20 of our retired tranche 1s and 20 or so new build tranche 3a..That’s how it was reported until recently.
Now they are apparently not interested in our retired tranche 1s.
Wonder if the Typhoons going to Turkey will have this enhanced radar? Hope not. A NATO member, they are too close to the Russians for my liking. Turkey has the Russian S400 ADS; consequently, the US thought the same when they refused to sell Turkey F35s.
Thought I heard they were selling off the S400, or was that just some wayward hypnotic dream.
The Turkiye Deal does not include any RAF/Ex RAF Airframes,the Qatar and Omani Fleets are enough to provide the initial second hand Typhoons.
More than enough? Possibly to replace RAF T1s as well?
can someone w
explain why the omanis are getting rid of their Typhoons? To me it seems odd after all the investment training provided. Typhoon is proven operating in the Middle East with RAF, Saudis and Omanis. Why would they want to lose the inoperability with both? The Qataris I understand more since they procured Typhoon, F15 and Rafale simultaneously and it always had the whiff of “evaluate 3 and later drop 1 (or 2)” but i thought the omanis were pretty captive. Or was this all part of the long term plan? Just intrigued…
Oman apparently can’t afford to operate them , Qatar was and I believe still is planning to buy another 12 typhoons maybe now 24, reading between the lines they’ve expanded their airforce massively in a few years and overstretched so can afford to wait for a while
so what does Oman operate instead? I would have thought the money sunk so far would make replacement (and sinking money again) not worth it. They only have a dozen or so airframes! For Qatar, why are they ditching them if they plan to order more?
Onan also operates f16 , I read elsewhere they stopped paying support on typhoon a couple of years ago as they were struggling operating 2 fleets , in Qatar case who knows maybe struggling find pilots and support for 3 fleets and turkeys offer was to good to turn down. As far as anyone can tell they are still intending to order an additional 12, perhaps happy to have latest standard after Turkish order is complete
Julian – Oman is more agreeable to losing it’s Typhoons mainly because the current threat from Iran is seen as much reduced, logically it would be a stopgap pending replacements of the same or another Airframe. Qatar has an embarrassment of riches in it’s Fighter Fleet, rumour has it they are not impressed with the availability rate of their Typhoons.
No it does not.
Right, if so, this narrows the options for maintaining or increasing RAF fast jet numbers.
“into service by the end of the decade” ? I thought this would be now/2026.
why so long? they were doing test on Typhoon at BAE in Warton back in April 2023
aren’t these supposed to be plug & play and installed in a few hours? ie so it is possible to swap radars between different Typhoon within the fleet as long as they had the required software upgrade. explaining why ony 40 radars were ordered since not all aircraft are operational at any given time and an AESA is needed for some missions (Meteor, etc…)
My understanding is that the upgrades cover more than just the Radar, although what precisely is included is a bit vague. The upgrade package is being applied to more than the 40 aircraft that are getting the radar. So in effect a 2 tier upgrade… Penny pinching.
Cheers CR
Integrating a new radar is hugely complex. It has to integrate with every other major system in the aircraft. The sensor fusion. Radar, weapon systems, the weapon themselves, mid course guidance, datalinks, navigation, communications, PIRATE, cockpit displays, HMS, defensive aids all have to operate with the radar seamlessly.
Thats a lot of money for glorified microwave oven and a few wave guides
Cavity Magnetrons are just sooooo yesterday… apart from cooking your dinner which shouldn’t be underestimated of course.
Risking the wrath of being referred to as halfwit’s half brother, but having stoically been on the sherry to build up my Dutch courage, dare I ask if this very advanced technology (esp as it transforms into the Tempest radar) could offer a roadmap towards a larger ground/sea-born flat panel radar that could for example replace Samson, or is Samson itself a better starting point for such a development, or alternatively better to just go with an existing/in development radar such as CEAFAR perhaps, or a licensed development. Thinking about the T-83 Destroyer which in early renders is being shown with fixed AESA panels but obviously likely all major future frigates too thereafter so important for UK industry. Is it even possible to answer or speculate on such a question being so distant from the implications both technological and beyond.
Piss Head !!!
Which reminds me I have some glorious Welsh Mead here just begging me to consume it. I may be some time.
“Welsh Mead” eh ?
Is that something to do with Sheep and Wee ?
Presumably this is also the radar that will be fitted to Tempest…
I don’t believe it is. The announcement of breakthroughs from Leonardo about 4 years ago implied that Tempest’s will be more advanced to the point they won’t even call it a radar any more. It’s a Multi-Function Radio Frequency System! At least it was back then. I’ve more recently heard it referred to as both ISANKE and ICS. Integrated sensor and non-kenetic effector, and integrated communication system. I’m kind of waiting until the demonstrator come out to see what it will end up being called: perhaps The Omniscient Revelator.
Makes sense, though I’m sure there will be some overlap but has to be said that this present radar was originally developed in the early years of this century but sat on the shelf because the present mechanical radar version was deemed sufficient for the job and the investment in the circumstances not deemed worthwhile (I bet its creators loved that). As such when it was revived much of the technology and parts were no longer available or had to be greatly updated, so great delays as a result. Presumably much has changed even further in research labs since its base principles were established. So I guess you are right about Tempest requiring a further leap.
While this new Omniscience* Mk 1 sounds impressive…
I can’t help but think it’d be wiser not to launch Tempest with brand new ‘cutting edge’ everything but to introduce these in later Blocks/Tranches. That way you don’t risk delaying the entire project because one new bit of kit is behind on its developmental schedule.
Of course that depends on building the aircraft as an open modular platform which while promised, the F35 has failed to be.
*Note to Leonardo – I’m trademarking this name 😂
As we speak, in the development kitchen of a very well known avionics company, there is a pan gently bubbling away, full of special Radar magic source, its a generation on from Radar 2, apparently promising some really quite remarkable capabities.
I have a Hammer 4 if that’s similar ?
This money.only covers upgrading the 40 tranche 3 Typhoons. The previous reported estimate IIRC was £45m per aircraft, now it has has jumped to £59m. Still, it sounds a very capable SEAD system, a good bit ahead of the ECRS Mk 1 that Hensholdt is producing for the other Typhoon users.
The long-range plan looks to be to replace the remaining 67 tranche 2 aircraft with Tempest, in which case we better get a move on with the latter, as the Typhoons will be 30-35 years old by the time they are replaced.
So Luftwaffe is going for Typhoon EK while RAF prefers Typhoon tr3 + ECRS.2 with EW capabilities because neither can have F18G Growler so prefer a European EW solution, presumably because F35 can’t be relied on given serviceability and regime concerns.
Once the RAF Typhoon tr3 + ECRS.2 have done the SEAD mission those 67 tr2 Typhoons should be fine for A2G & A2A missions…
I would say the 67 tranche 2 machines will likely be partially replaced by F35A, probably another 30 ish, on top of the 12 and the remaining active 80 odd Thypoons replaced by Tempest.
If Tempest is delayed, then expect another F35 top uo order to fully replace Tranche 2 Thypoon.
One things for sure, if tranche 2 isn’t being upgraded, expect them gone within the next decade.
Not sure you got the figures right there JC.
By all accounts we have just 107 Thighboots left, so your 67 + 80 is a little Orrff !!!
I was in the none maths group at School Halfwit, an elite group of students who specialised in staring out the window wondering what this maths thing was all about, this happy band of philosophy students being monitored by a well known nonce teacher at the school…
I had the finest education Mrs Thatcher was prepared to pay for mate, she took the milk away too….
I don’t know, Thatchers Britain..
What was the question again
I think, therefore I am.
Lucky you sitting starring out the window, I had to make do with staring in from the outside, I’ll never know why all the doors and windows were locked and no other kids were inside.
Someone mentioned it’s “Half Term” but I just think they were taking the piss out of my name.
Ahh Mrs Thatcher, the Ironing Lady, my dad used to swear by her, or was it at her, I dunno why though, all my clothes were neatly pressed.
I think you’re.right John, the idea of replacing some of the tranche 2 Typhoons with F-35As.has been around for a while and sounds like the RAF’s preferred option.
Another 36.F-36As would do nicely to.stand up two squadrons.
However, I don’t see where.they will find the money to buy more F-35As at the same time as Tempests, as the latter.with its loyal wingmen (CCA) will cost a load more than any previous RAF fast jet. Ideally we would squeeze in a bumper buy of F-35As betwen 2032 and.say 2037, while Tempest is still at the Low rate initial production stage. But I expect that would be too clear-cut and challenging for the civvies and accountants who run head office!
At £59m per upgrade you are just short of the published flyaway price of $80-83m per unit for the F35A
Surely we are better off with 30 of these than a typhoon, best of all we can keep both and increase our combat capacity and lethality. Not sure why this isn’t being challenged by the chief air Marshall & CoS
I think thats precisely what will happen. Two squadrons of super dooper Thypoon for scrapping abroad and three more squadrons of vanilla flavour Thypoons for escorting Bears away from our boarders.
Those three squadrons will be starved up upgrades and funding, to be replaced by F35A early next decade. Probably announced in SDSR29.
The RAF wants a Gen 5 / 6 force structure and it will get it by 2040.
Blimey.
“That’s all I got to say about that”.
Perhaps we would be better off letting the typhoon degrade gracefully and spend £2.35bn ($3bn) on 24 F35Bs
I think this would be a better spend of the money at this point.
Current set up can still do a job, but we need combat mass as well.
Problem is the F-35B.is considerably more expensive than the A, has shorter range, half the weapons loadout and.seems to have considerable maintenance problems. I can’t see the RAF wanting more of them.
I agree, the F35B is an engineering nightmare that only survived because the USMC refused to ditch its own fast air capability.
LM will breathe a ‘huge’ sigh of relief when they can stop B and C production and concentrate on future advanced A models.
Incidentally, I believe Boeings F32 offered a much better potential VSTOL solution, far less complex.
I’ve hypothesised elsewhere, but with today’s technology, it should be possible to design a STOL fighter, of approximately F35 size thats far simpler from an engineering
approach. Instead of a complex shaft driven lift fan and swivelling jet nozzle, a couple of relatively small electronic fans that, with powerful blowing, would allow a touch down speed of 60 knots into the wind, to a breaking stop.
We have four acres of flight deck, we don’t need VSTOL…
Perhaps a single engine GCAP family member, designed by SAAB???
Ahh, the stunning X32, now that really was a beautiful aircraft.