The UK government has confirmed there are no plans to fit 30mm naval guns to HMS Queen Elizabeth or HMS Prince of Wales, despite growing concern over drone threats to warships.
Responding to a written question from Lord Lee of Trafford, Defence Minister Lord Coaker said the carriers already rely on a layered defence approach.
“There are no plans to fit a 30mm weapon system to HMS Queen Elizabeth or HMS Prince of Wales,” he said. “The Queen Elizabeth Class carriers are equipped with a range of defensive systems, which along with escort vessels and wider force protection measures, provide a layered defensive system that is effective against a wide range of threats, including emerging uncrewed aerial threats.”
The decision comes despite the carriers having been designed with four positions for 30mm gun systems, none of which have been installed since the ships entered service.
The DS30M Mark 2, widely used across the Royal Navy’s surface fleet, is a stabilised 30mm cannon system designed to counter fast attack craft and small surface threats, and has also been adapted in some cases to engage aerial targets such as drones.
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The system uses an electro-optical director and can be controlled from elsewhere on the ship, allowing operators to track and engage targets without direct line-of-sight from the mount itself. Its stabilisation and dual-feed ammunition system enable engagement of multiple target types at ranges of up to around 5km, with the ability to switch between ammunition types depending on the threat.
Originally introduced to address gaps in the Royal Navy’s ability to deal with swarming small boat attacks, the system has since become a standard close-range defensive weapon across surface combatants, complementing other systems such as Phalanx close-in weapon systems and escort-based air defence.
Why rule it out? The mounts are there and we presumably have spare guns taken off retired T23s. Presumably a more precisely worded question like ‘in what circumstances would the Royal Navy equip the 30mm ASCG guns that the aircraft carriers are fitted for, given etc etc’ might have received a more sensible answer.
Unless it means they are upgrading to 40mm…
They bought guns specifically for the carriers but for whatever reason are not interested in fitting them.
Maybe or maybe they were gifted to UKR….
Maybe used up in Paladin Terrahawk systems?
The most likely upgrade path is Dragonfire as QEC’s have plenty of electricity and space for more DGUs if needed.
I could imagine a pair of super-Dragonfire especially as the power generation won’t be required for CATOBAR the way things are going. But that would be out well past 2030 whereas we could have four 40mm mounts on by the end of PoW’s next refit and then QE when she comes around again.
Was the *installed* Power Generation ever fully sized for CATOBAR? I don’t think so. I think the two MT30’s and DGUs do have plenty of spare capacity and there is plenty of space for more DGUs.
EMALS was always going to need battery or capacitor storage systems.
IIRC there was some spare left over just in case, but obviously not enough for full EMALS. Wikipedia says they have 118MW of installed power but the motors can only deliver 80MW to the propellers. No idea what the system power of the rest of the ship is but there should be enough for some pretty big lasers.
As with anything mechanical you don’t run it flat out. There is a sweet spot for fuel use and service life.
I’d say that was about right as you’d expect to run the power system at max 80% for the drive motors. Even GTs get pretty inefficient run flat out.
It’s hard to say for MT30, RR’s brochure says it can run ‘down to’ 25MW so its happy place is probably 30MW out of a maximum 40. Even if they’re running the DGs at 50% that’s still the full 80MW so they can run the ship flat out with the generators just chilling if they turn the lights off!
Do you think that the forward starboard mount position on the carriers looks like it could have a firing line conflict with the Phalanx as its arc looks a bit limited there?
That arc would also be covered by the starboard quarter mount which can fire a long way forwards, if fitted. The main problem at the moment is that the starboard quarter itself has a big gap at short range between the port quarter phalanx and the starboard bow one.
All the Hunts and Sandowns had the 30ts as well Local and ops room aimed .Fair enough the CRWS 30mm Phalanx higher rate of fire ,but the single barrel 30mm quicker too reload .
Why would you equip your capital ships with as much protection as possible? This is the British MOD they are talking about…….anyway, according to Trump, it’s only a toy navy. The people who make these stupid decisions will never sail on these vessels and simply fly a desk in Whitehall.
Bizarre behaviour.
we are governed by idiots! where do we get these clowns? if there’s one thing the Falklands taught the RN – it was don’t skip on air defence and don’t rely on others.
And that is the right approach – fitted even if of marginal need.
Except no money so….
Absolutely agree, can’t rely on carrier escort ships, we’re spread so thin & the carriers are a very big target, despite what the Orange Buffoon says!
guns need maintenance and support and ammunition that cost money, thats why no guns.
Pretty much
Weak excuse. Considering the shear size of the carriers, their high value assets, systems, people being put on these carriers and more to come a proportionate increase in self defensive armament is surely just sensible. The 4x30mm, with the 3 Phalanx’s same as was on HMS Ocean, has got to be the cheapest of any options. It feels really pathetic as it is worrying. If Ancilia and Dragonfire are in the future mix we’ll just have to wait.
Costing a pittance in the grand scheme of things.
Escort based air defence? If only.
No other aircraft carriers have so little onboard air defence. US, France, Italy, China, India all fit missile and gun systems.
Yep. Extremely short sighted, quite literally. Has he know grasp of affordable and doable incremental increases in lethality, here and for defensive purposes?
*no
Seems very short-sighted even short-ranged thinking. What about a pair of 40mm to complement the three Phalanx’s, is that too sensible too? What about a navalised version of Rapid Sentry considering how widespread RAM has been adopted? Even the Ancilia launcher? Have they even looked at our allies carriers, including the upcoming French PA-NG? Any talk of 3-4 Dragonfire? You can’t always rely on escorts to be in the right place at the right time all the time as they’ve got to defend themselves too. High level stupidity at its finest.
The PANG “ upcoming “ . That’s a bit of a stretch . We have no idea what weapon systems it will have if it ever sees the light of day . All the systems discussed on this thread would have been superseded by then in any case .
Lack of funding presented as a calculated decision
Shouldn’t cost the earth. Plenty of T23 spare 30mm sets around.
Pathetic levels of cost cutting! On something costing so much it is mind boggling there seems no intent to protect the investment!
Pathetic, mores always better, guns jam, cant always count on machines,
Well that’s HMG for you 🙄
You don’t need extra gun and missile systems fitted to the carriers!! Your integrated network of picket ships comprising Air defence destroyers and ASW ships provides 360 degree defence for your carrier.And a couple of Astutes lurking about underneath…Sorted…Hang on though…Um…When are we thinking of going?
Layered means by other ships in a carrier strike group. We don’t have enough ships or aircraft for one, let alone two, carrier strike groups and therefore iwe are reliant on allies. In a hot war sometimes others don’t want to get involved. (Like the UK!) That means we are vulnerable and lacking sovereign capability. When asked what we have enough of, from ships to aircraft we are severely under equipped? We are repleat in excuses though!
Seems an odd decision. Hypothetical but I imagine that it is possible to fit something like rapid sentry. A mix of LMM and Starstreak would perhaps be more useful than the (none existent) 30mm guns.
It is the modern version of “spoil the ship for a halfpenny of tar”. The QE carriers are great , but lack escort & support ships. Their F-35 lack stand off weapons & drop tanks. A few CMV-22 for onboard delivery “ship to shore” would be good. I still think AAG for STOBAR should be slotted in at refit.
Let’s take a £3bn vessel, load it with £2bn+worth of aircraft, up to 1,600 people and skimp on £4m worth of protection to save money.
The lunatics really have taken over the asylum.
Penny pinching once again by the Royal Navy no doubt under MOD influence, when are all these so called Admirals going to speak out and consider the defence of their ships and sailors.
Stupid not to add them for the low cost and the massive need and use they might have in any conflict, short sighted move by fools. Save a few £ and regret it it later its the MOD way, more admirals than ships says it all.
Yet these so called Admirals are silent like they have been for years while navy falls apart.
In WW2, no matter how many escorts and CAP, some thing always got through, only an idiot would thing that an escort can do every thing. Only an arrrogant fools who over rates our limited kit and ammo would say no to adding a cheap defence against cheap drones and sea drones.
This will come back and bite real hard if we go up against mass cheap drones, too late then, all to save a few £ now that like every other saving we never see the money again. Lions lead by donkeys.