In my first article in this series, I felt it was important to begin by laying out the sort of Scotland that I think independence can achieve; from there, we can move on to describe the context in which we think it will happen. I ended that article with a plea for a security offering that addresses the social and economic realities of our communities, so I want to begin this one with an attempt to understand the immediate external context.

The most important security relationship that an independent Scotland will always have will be with those closest to us, both geographically and in terms of security interests: the UK (rUK) and Ireland.

This is a straightforward and, for me, at least, obvious statement, but one which nonetheless bears repeating, as it never ceases to amaze me that people don’t expect me to say it. Because just as it is a healthier, wealthier, and happier Scotland that we wish to be defending, rUK and Ireland will be a vital part of that going forward – not only because of the familial, social, cultural, and economic bonds that will continue to flourish after Scotland regains its independence but because of the obvious mutual interest in securing our islands of the North Atlantic (IONA).


Written by Martin Docherty-Hughes MP, Member of Parliament for West Dunbartonshire since 2015 and SNP Defence Spokesperson since 2023, this article is part of our series exploring diverse perspectives on defence and security issues. While the opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the stance of the UK Defence Journal, we believe in the importance of presenting a variety of viewpoints. Understanding different perspectives is essential for a comprehensive grasp of complex subjects. For more articles in this series, please click here.


Three other immediate points spring to mind: firstly, the importance of ensuring ‘losers consent’ as the many Scots who voted against independence are able to see that they remain a vital part of our ‘common weal’. Secondly, the understanding that the wounded pride of a rUK coping with the loss of population, territory and prestige, which will inevitably flow from a Yes vote, will be an immediate source of tension and require a magnanimous and open-hearted attitude from Scotland’s leaders.

This is an understanding that is gleaned principally from the experience of Brexit we have all lived through in recent years. The relationship between Brexit and Scottish independence can often be overdone, but there is a constant and subtle interplay between both, which we don’t have enough time to examine fully in this article. Needless to say, as the Member of the Defence Select Committee who has mentioned the need for a comprehensive Defence and Security Agreement with the EU more than any other, I believe that a ‘Good Neighbourhood Treaty’ specifically with the rUK would be an important statement of intent for other international partners and a lynchpin in the building of a mutually focused security collaborative with our closest geographical allies and friends, but one where Scotland actually has a voice at the table to accompany our stake in the game.

This is also a reality which flows from an understanding of the other sovereign state we share our islands of the North Atlantic with: Ireland has an ambitious and opaque security relationship with the UK, which it has never been able to quite bring itself to publicly acknowledge. I do not believe that this will be the path Scotland will take for a number of understandable historical reasons, but it could also have the corollary effect of galvanising a more honest approach to security with three sovereign states instead of just two.

HMNB Clyde at Faslane.

The first test of this new relationship, and the one that will hove into sight upon an independence vote, will be the negotiation to remove rUK’s Continuous at Sea Deterrent (CASD) from its base at HMNB Clyde. I do not wish this article to get too caught up in this debate, but instead, to acknowledge the part it will play in the negotiations for, and eventual international recognition of, an independent sovereign Scotland.

My party’s policy is well outlined and understood: we would seek the removal of the rUK’s CASD as quickly and as safely as possible. While there are some who currently advocate the Sevastopolisation of HMNB Clyde, the realities of this option would entail too great a loss of sovereignty for an independent Scotland and, arguably more importantly, would simply not be in the interest of rUK.

As I have pointed out on many occasions, in the history of the nuclear age, no nuclear weapons state has had the entirety of its arsenal surrounded by the sovereign territory of another state. And even if it is a friendly one, there is no way that this will be seen as an acceptable risk, as security experts such as Francis Tusa have argued.

The precipitous removal of CASD from HMNB Clyde to the Southwest of England – Devonport or Falmouth most likely – will become of immediate importance for rUK upon an independence vote. It will also be an important moment to recognise the changing reality of rUK nuclear politics: According to Matthew Jones’ excellent official history of the UK Nuclear Deterrent, one of the primary drivers of situating Polaris on the Gare Loch was satisfying American partners its proximity to a major conurbation: a reality which has significantly changed as the South West of England has developed, even if not as quickly as those folk I’ve spoken to there would like. Other advantages to rUK for this move would be a quicker ingress and egress into the North Atlantic, along with a more straightforward link with the Nuclear Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston in Berkshire.

The centrality to Scottish foreign policy of being a good neighbour in this regard will provide a strong foundation for what comes after that, and Scotland’s identity as a European state, anchored firmly in our North Atlantic neighbourhood, will inform everything that we do.

A map of Scottish EEZ BY Kentynet.

Geographically, it is essential to look at a map of Scotland’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) to understand the change that independence will bring to our security posture and outlook. Scotland has 62% of the UK’s maritime area: a longer coastline than France, as well as borders with rUK, Norway, Denmark and Ireland.

Considering this new map, we see the centrality of three areas to Scotland’s security: The Greenland / Iceland / Scotland Gap, the entrance to the North Sea, and the emerging Northern Sea route from Western Europe to East Asia. It will be of absolutely no surprise, therefore, to conclude that an independent Scotland will see security, primarily, in maritime terms.

Here lies the potential for a most significant change to our security posture after independence. Since the Treaty of Union, Scotland’s primary contribution to the UK’s armed forces has been through the infantry. As the brother of an infantryman with experience of tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan, I understand how central that contribution has been. Yet, at the point of independence, an irrevocable shift will be necessary to ensure that our contribution to the security of our North Atlantic neighbourhood is a central pillar of our national interest.

From a maritime perspective, that means moving away from the UK’s strange Napoleonic-era hangover with bases on the south coast of England that lie far from potential threats. Not only would the opening of facilities on Scotland’s east coast be preferable, but the possibility of secondary bases in Orkney or the Western Isles would be a clear statement of intent – not only to allies or potential adversaries but also to those communities who will undoubtedly want to see a state more willing to invest in their communities than the current UK Government.

Image via NATO of SNMG1

In a context where the UK finds itself currently reconciling immediate threats in Ukraine, the ongoing reality of Brexit, and the security gap it has created, not to mention the more self-indulgent fantasies like the Indo-Pacific tilt – it is more important than ever to stress the clarity of vision regarding an independent Scotland’s security interests within our North Atlantic neighbourhood. Consistent contributions to NATO SMG1, cooperation with neighbours through formations like the Northern Group or JEF, and work through the European Union to ensure the alignment of these aims with our economic security will be Scotland’s bread and butter, in the way that it similarly has been for the Kingdoms of Norway and Denmark.

The interaction between these three principal spheres of our security – the rUK / IONA, NATO, and the EU – will be Scotland’s primary concern. Therefore, continuing to develop a deep and informed understanding of all three will be the primary concern of a nascent Scottish foreign policy community. The role of small states in International Relations may be poorly understood in a UK context, especially given the blunders of the UK Government in recent history regarding their role on the international stage. However, there is ample material on how similar states to Scotland have used the international system to their advantage and have had a positive impact on the global community. The key to this success is a narrowly defined – but broadly understood – concept of the national interest.

In defining this national interest, we will be building on the demonstrable commitment of the SNP to the international institutions of the post-war consensus and to the laws and rights which sprung from that time. It will still be a surprise to some – although not those who have been paying attention since 2016 – that in the coming election campaign, it will be SNP leader Humza Yousaf, and not the leaders of the two Westminster parties, who can clearly state his commitment to the EU and NATO as the twin pillars of our security.

There has been a tendency in the past, beginning with the 2014 referendum, to frame an independent Scotland’s security offering in terms of what it cannot do rather than what it can offer – something I like to call the ‘aircraft carrier conundrum’ after one particular paper that spent a rather inordinate amount of time lamenting Scotland’s inability to field a strike formation that no similar-sized country operates, and which even the UK can often struggle to make relevant to the threats it currently faces.

NATO vessels in Glasgow

One thing that I believe has changed since then that will make this conundrum less relevant to the debate, other than the ongoing decline of the UK’s defensive and security capacities, is the accession to NATO of Sweden and Finland: two internationally-minded but regionally-focused small states. The demonstration that their own niche capabilities and individualities of the industry can so positively contribute to the total strength of the collective has led many to extol the virtues that such states can offer – and this is good news for Scotland.

The more worrying aspect of international relations to emerge in the decade since the first referendum is a more unstable world order, with the emergence of a multipolar/polyvalent system of shifting alliances and temporary mutual interest sharing, which has made the broader West feel less secure in its place.

While I share many of these concerns, especially in the possibility of asserting universal values, this is a new reality which will nonetheless need to be adjusted to, and one again which I cannot help but conclude will favour states with a clear understanding of their own interests, as Scotland will. And with the potential for growing regionalisation in emerging economic and security politics, having a clear understanding of where our primary alliances and partners are will be paramount.

In sum, I think it is safe to say that an independent Scotland will not seek simply to be a mini-UK in its international relations, though that is not to say we will not seek to be different simply for the sake of it. I hope the building of a fruitful new security relationship will begin at the moment of independence, with a clear statement of mutual interests and values, defending our shared island of the North Atlantic and, from there, working with allies and partners in our immediate neighbourhood and beyond.


Click here to explore the ‘Scotland’s Defence: Perspectives and Possibilities’ series, an exclusive UK Defence Journal series by Martin Docherty-Hughes MP, SNP Defence Spokesperson.
At the heart of the UK Defence Journal’s mission is our commitment to journalistic integrity. Our role is not to dictate opinions but to present information in a fair and balanced manner, allowing our readers to form their own informed views. This series exemplifies our dedication to offering diverse perspectives in the realm of defence and security. Our aim is to ignite discussions and deepen understanding among its readers, irrespective of their stance on Scottish independence. The importance of exploring varied viewpoints in shaping an informed public discourse cannot be overstated.

You can read the rest of the series here.

Scotland’s Defence: Perspectives and Possibilities

 

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Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago

Well I suppose the first question would be “defend” Scotland and the North Atlantic with what?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

Think about it yourself. You missed (ignored) all the points in the article with a single very simplistic comment. You can extend your own argument with parallels with what goes on already!

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

What I have asked is with what assets does the SNP intend to defend Scotland etc with! Not too hard a question really is it? So yes it is a simplistic comment.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

The assets that Scotland as a tax contributor already has a part share in and already house! And those that would be created post independence. Some people seem to forget that we pay taxes too! Those same taxes that pay for all the collective services and infrastructure we all ‘enjoy’. The exact details would of course be down to negotiation in the event of independence, until then we continue to contribute on the basis set out by Westminster Parliament.

Tim
Tim
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

You do pay taxes however you have the biggest deficit in the union I believe, and assets ? Scotland doesn’t get it break a bit of the uk off and take it with them if they leave they don’t get to take a % of anything unless Scotland is going to then take the debt as well , when the uk left the e.u we didn’t get to take a % of the buildings etc

ChrisLondon
ChrisLondon
2 months ago
Reply to  Tim

I hit 18yo in 1979. Over my lifetime the UK has lived off Scotland’s oil and gas and London’s finance sector. They carry the country. The rest of the UK is dead weight by comparison. I think the SNP exists because the UK gov. fiddles the books to hide this to avoid upsetting the English nationalist vote that lumbered us with leave. If Scotland’s contribution was honoured as it should be the Union would be stronger, we might have avoided lunacy like leave, and the Scots would probably be happy to accept that there have been times in the past… Read more »

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

Oh please. If you really believe what you’ve just said you must be in a parallel universe. In excess of 76 per cent of the GDP of the United Kingdom is generated in England. Hard for you perhaps but true.

ChrisLondon
ChrisLondon
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

England including London is 82% of the UK’s population so your 76% is underperforming. It is also mainly London which prior to being stabbed in the back by England’s benefit scroungers and pensioners used to contribute between 12 and 20 billion a year more in taxes than we got back from Westminster.

As I said Scotland and London have carried the UK throughout my adult life.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

“Englands benefit scroungers” mmmm so any of those types in Scotland then? You seem good at statistics, have a peruse!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

If you understood the demoraphics you would realise how stupid your statement is. England has approx 10 times the population of Scotland so the majority of any deficit arises from England. And on your figure of only 76% of our collective GDP being generated by England with 84% of the population, who then contributes the most? 16% of the population (Wales, NI and Scotland) generates 24% of the GDP! The problem in UK is that what England votes for is what the UK gets, and the sheep allowing the corrupt money launderers and vested interest establishment let it happen. The… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Cole
Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So it’s Chris and Nick, the crazy gang. Just carry on as you are guys, then the rest of us can ignore you.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

The problem with your approach is that you follow the sheep ‘received wisdom’ and completely fail to think about the issues beyind your cognitive dissonance. Instead of focussing on your silo opinion completely ignoring everything else that is relevant you would see all the potential benefits as well as the potential pitfalls. Focussing on one of these out of preference while ignoring the other is a classic mistake of inept strategic management and analysis. But then Westminster and big UK business live by that all the time. They cannot comprehend that any view other than their wishes and control can… Read more »

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Take out UK Naval ship building and you loose a large part of Scotlands GDP when you also deduct the multiplier effect.

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

This Scotlands oil and gas nonsense amazes me! The whole of the UK has contributed to the development and management of the oilfields in the North Sea not just Scotland🙄 there has even been talk of Shetland and the other islands becoming a BOT in the event of independence,so who’s oil would it be then?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

Correct! You don’t resolve a grievance by continuing the policies that cause the grievance! The UK is run for the benefit of the South East based corrupt money launderers.

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Scotland is it seems run for the benefit of the corrupt SNP. This is child’s stuff.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

So English nationalist that voted us “with leave” are bad, but Scottish nationalists who want to, er, leave, are good? State the difference between a Brexiteer wanting to leave a union they don’t like/agree with, with an SNP nationalist wanting to leave a union they don’t like/agree with? I always find the sheep following the Shepard that feeds them amusing, don’t you.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Pity that you take such a narrow silo based approach to the debate. If England (the majority vote came from them nobody else) wanted independence from EU, what is so different about Scotland wanting independence from UK? The reasoning is much the same, the big difference in Scotland is to have a more realistic trading arrangement with neighbouring countries rather than a handful (yet to be completed anyway) the other side of the world.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Not narrow at all, questioning the mind set of “English” leavers wanting to leave the EU, bad, SNP and nationalists wanting to leave the UK union, good! The arguments are the same no matter how you want to spin it, and an entrenched echo chamber opinions rarely change!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Aside from this article being about defence, you have just stated two opposing comments which collectively make no sense! England decided it wanted to leave the EU, dragging Soctland and NI with it, and Scotland wanting to leave the UK parliament, for much the same arguments (apart from borders obviously). Yes the echo chamber of all the UK good, anything else bad of this journal’s forum contributors. Thinking about alternate ways of doing things is the hallmark of competent strategic thinking. That means discussing what may be unacceptable to received wisdom. Dismissing and ignoring foreseeable and predictable consequences because they… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

My my you like to waffle in the grey zone without actually saying anything! That comment wasn’t opposing, it was a statement. Bad England took us out of the EU, bad, but good SNP people will take us out of the UK, good! Why is one bad, one good in your opinion? It’s a choice, one was made, the other to be made, but it seems you can’t quite see the ludicrous way your thought process and justification efforts move forward.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

I didn’t say that. I didn’t say ‘Bad England’ or even ‘Good SNP’. I just pointed out that the population of England forms 85% of the UK, while the rest have to lump it. You have actually illustrated my point, the Independent activists are making exactly the same arguments as the Brexiteers, yet they were right and when faced with the same arguments suddenly those same points are wrong. NOTHING to do with whatever you mean by ‘grey zones’. The ludicrous and unsustainable arguments are those by those who merely argue by saying ‘you can’t so just shut up do… Read more »

Redshift
Redshift
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So, England (AND Wales by the way) dragged Scotland out of the UK against it’s will, will Scotland drag the Boarders out of the UK against their will or will they be allowed to stay in the UK if that is how they vote?

Redshift
Redshift
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The reasoning is the same, nationalism and exceptionalism both supply the desire to leave a larger group and set out on your own.

Brexit was stupid, and I strongly suspect that Scottish independence will be as bad for Scotland as Brexit was for the UK.

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I need hardly remind you it was exactly because of England’s successful trading with a handful of countries on the far side of the World that Scotland joined the Union. Moreover Scotland did very well indeed out of the opportunity. The SNP’s destructive hankering after trading with a few regressive countries in Europe as the B all and end all is delusionary and sad to see.

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

Utter rubbish, economics definitely not your strongpoint.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Tim

You misread and misinterpret lots of stats. Scots deficit is part of the UK deficit, it does not exist as a separate entity. The economy which produces the deficit is run by Westminster. If independent Scotland would run its economy differently, in particular not pandering to the vested interests of the money launderers! Perhaps if you proof read what you wrote it would be less of an ill-informed rant. So if a partnership breaks up the assets are not shared? bearing in mind that Scotland contributed to the creation of those same assets. Any assets in UK collectively from the… Read more »

Tim
Tim
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Firstly I did no “rant” I pointed out correctly that Scotland isn’t going to break of part of the U.K. and walk away unless it’s going to do the same with the U.K. debt I also pointed out that the U.K. didn’t take e.u assets yet paid into the e.u as a net contributor u like Scotland with the U.K. over hundreds of years Scotland has been in deficit far more than it hasn’t Scotland pays in yes and then gets given more back

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Tim

You are NOT in a position to determine the process. So therefore it is an ill-informed (rant?) on your part to make such assertions. I suggest you proof read too! The EU DID have assets in the UK which we retained, also paid for jointly. Historical timescales are irrelevant and meaningless in this context though obviously would form part of negotiations, which neither you nor I will be party to. Nobody but nobody said that taking on historic debt would not necesarily happen. Stick to what is actually formally announced not fake news and inuendo. Yes there would be negotiations… Read more »

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Argh yes this will be the frigates and typhoons etc will it?although of course you will have no contracts to keep such kit operational let alone crew to man the platforms not to mention all sensitive kit will be removed as the licences for kit operated by the RN/RAF will not apply to a SDF!

Last edited 2 months ago by Jacko
Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

Have you actually thought your commets through? Part of the negotiated transfer of ‘currently shared assets’ will also include the contracts where necessary and appropriate. It is pretty obvious that Scotland doesn’ have any specific now, but that cannot be extended to post independence. Also manpower will be looked at. You make the significant mistake of looking at what is in place now and stupidly assuming that it will remain unchanged later! Therefore your argument is completely baseless. Unfortunately far too many people suffer from silo thinking and fail to realise and recognise that any change also includes adaptation to… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

You love that silo thinking comment! Anyway, ignoring everything else, no matter what kit is shared in whatever proportion, it has to be manned! In my military career, and now in my new one I have yet to come across more than a small handful of Scottish soldiers who would be prepared to move from a operational military, where combat tours, courses, promotions and careers are available to a “defence force” type posture! It is also quite amusing to see that the jocks who have left Scotland and have seen the world, and currently reside in let’s say England, are… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Once again you are making false extrapolations and certainty based on a very small sample of probably ‘drinking buddies’. Yes manning will be part of the negotiations and as long as it isn’t based on a repeat of the lies and misinformation allows those affected to make an informed choice. Until the details emerge it is NOT possible for you to assert that something will or will not happen. The question remains open. In fact there are better opportunities from being part of a small tight organisation than being a very very tiny cog in a much bigger one! What… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I see you are having trouble understanding things! First thing it is also NOT possible for you to assert what will happen (however you do try), second, drinking buddies, oh dear, quite patronising again, more like hundreds of colleagues over a 30 plus year period! Third, your comment about attack/defence posture shows you have no clue about a professional military persons thought process, career progression and hopes and needs! Like I said very very few professional military people will move from a larger organisation with prospects to a smaller defence force with limited openings for a career or promotion! But… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

It is you who are patronising! You make statements of certainty when all you can say is that they are issues that need to be resolve. You don’t know my background (any more than I know yours) so you do have a patronising approach. You make statements of absolute certainty which shows that you are not thinking about strategic options. You also make statements of absolute certainty. People make decisions at the time of needing to make a decision based on information they have at the time. Your analysis is not allowing for potential negotiation and structural arrangements at a… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Please cut and paste any part of my comment which I state anything with absolute certainty? My comment like yours is an opinion, mine is based on my experiences and previous communications with hundreds of people, all with opinions and their own experiences!

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Really! Moving contracts that have taken decades to implement and improve upon will have to rely on said contractors seeing they will get paid etc! Manning said vessels? As no Scot serving would be transferred to a SDF from HM forces against their will I would suggest you would be starting from scratch. What facility would Scotland have to train such personnel as the UK training route would be cut off! Or do you think that we would do you a favour and train your lot for free?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

You are making assertions about things that haven’t happened (and may not anyway). So UK doesn’t train anybody else? UK doesn’t share facilities with anybody else? Payment to and from UK for those shared facilities and opportunities doesn’t happen now? Nobody has said anyone would be transferred against their will! You are arguing and making assumptions that would be down to negotiation detail at some possible future time. Contracts would of course be negotiated as well, why wouldn’t they? And why would they actually stop something happening? Just because something is difficult, protracted or complicated does not mean it cannot… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The core assumption that undermines your argument is the idea that assets are “shared” between nations in the Union. This is demonstrably untrue; they are the property of the Ministry of Defence of the United Kingdom and would remain as such in the event of Scotland crashing out. A new country would be formed, not a splitting of one country into two. As such, the assets would have to be exchanged in a settlement if at all, probably involving Scotland paying its portion of the National Debt, which would cripple its economy for decades.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Are you a Scot, Nick? So Scotland would want 8% of two aircraft carriers, 9 frigates, 6 destroyers etc?

Last edited 2 months ago by Graham Moore
Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Why not put some thought into your comments? So you think that peple are saying we take a massive cutting torch to assets and divvy them up? What would remain would be down to negotiation. Even a primary school child understands that half an aircraft carrier or frigate would sink. And it isn’t just those resources anyway. Do we currently not have basing arrangements with other countries and shared access and facilities within NATO?

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Nick, I had not expected anyone to take my comment quite so literally. So perhaps I need to re-phrase my point thus: ‘my understanding is that the SNP consider that the Scottish Government should receive a percentage of the UK’s military assets following independence, following negotiation’. The issue will be that UK originally purchased those assets to defend the UK and to use on UK deployments overseas. Equipment fleets (I don’t just mean ships) are taut. It would be hard to see how Scotland could have a significant (say 7-10%) proportion of a small UK equipment fleet without prejudice to… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Think about analogies. Yes, the UK (including Scotland) paid for joint shared assets. Think about a married couple jointly purchasing a house and other property, what happens f they split up? If the current fleet(s) of significant assets are sufficient for current purposes why will splitting them up be any different? What would almost certainly happen is that Scotland would focus on the GIN gap and Baltic while England could then concentrate on more southerly areas, and contributing to its residual imperialist whole world ambitions. Obviously command structures would change but the overall effect will not to any significant extent.… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

You don’t win over many folk by talking about England’s ‘residual imperialist whole world ambitions’. We don’t deploy service personnel on expeditionary operations for glory or prestige or because we feel imperial. We use our forces on expeditionary operations as a force for good in the world, and that is not without its sacrifices. Interesting to compare the divorce of Scotland from rUK to the divorce of a married couple. Maybe that will be how the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government will approach this. Scotland will have to take away and deal with its share of the National Debt… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

But it’s not two people. I have previously warned you against Scottish exceptionalism. The house would be bought in the name of the marriage. In this case it is unlike a divorce, as the marriage would still exist, just one person has left it, so the house would retain with the remaining partner. More like someone leaving a joint business, where the business still exists and retains assets.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Scotland is not a tax contributor to the UK. More gets spent specifically in Scotland than is collected from Scots in tax. This does not include Defence, which is assumed to be spent in England

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Of course Scotland is a tax contributor. Look up the real facts not just those that pander to your preconceived notions. Don’t forget that what is spent in Scotland (Wales and NI) is pro-rata of what England decides it want to spend, decided by the 85% UK population of England.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

If 85% of the United Kingdom decide on something through democratic channels, then they will have their way. I know the SNP have had issues with accepting the will of the majority ever since 2014, but that is how democracy works. Don’t blame poor standards in Scotland on English penny-pinching. More gets spent on each Scot in tax money than each English person. And, in answer to your denial of my statement: Both from the Scottish Government website: Total public sector expenditure for Scotland in 2021-22 is estimated to be £97.5 billion, a decrease of 1.0% from 2020- The three largest… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Perjorative comments do not enhance debate. What you remain oblivious to is that while yes on a UK basis the majority gets its way, it doesn’t mean that the remainder have to be happy with it. And what has SNP got to do with it? ANY substantial group of people with an ideological wish retain that wish. Nothing to do with ancient majorities. On the basis of your argument, we should have scrapped elections because on 2016 a majority was held by one party! Do the then and current opposition not continue with their own ideological positions? Has anyone suggested… Read more »

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Arguing with the SNP is entertaining stuff, bit like whacka-mole, they never give up till they do.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

The SNP think they have a right to take 7-10% of UK Defence assets upon independence, because their taxpayers have been paying into the national ‘pot’.

Marius
Marius
2 months ago

Yawn … 😴

George Allison
2 months ago
Reply to  Marius

Hi Marius, do you need a nap?

Marius
Marius
2 months ago
Reply to  George Allison

Hi George. The quest for Scottish independence died in the 2014 Referendum. If that outcome does not convince you, and I can see it doesn’t, then two failed and shamed SNP leaders is more proof. Finally, the current incumbent is an embarrassment, and is simply a Sturgeon stooge . . .
Now here’s the bottom line – to keep banging on ad nauseum about some discredited and failed fairy tale, called Scottish Independence, is futile. It is not going to happen!
Stick with military matters – the clue is in the name UK Defence Journal.

George Allison
2 months ago
Reply to  Marius

Yes. I picked the name.

Smickers
Smickers
2 months ago
Reply to  George Allison

Yes and I think you have highlighted how important the UK is to our collective defence with a wee emphasis on Scotland

Keep the good work going from a Lancastrian

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Marius

Instead of just responding with the same unthinking tropes why not think about it instead of repeating the same old misinformation and fake news? Your first paragraph is a pile of blinkered nonsense. You don’t have the faintest bit of knowledge of what you are spouting about. The only thing that remotely conforms is that completely contrary to your illogical assumption is that there is a 50/50 split in opinion, which varies from time to tme either side of that. The idea and opportunities behind that split remain, regardless of the fake news and lies skewed outcome from 2014. The… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Nope, all the metrics show the desire for independence dropping back again, the pendulum is swinging back the other way now and the SNP has missed its chance. Most observers expect the SNP to loose a good few seats to Labour in the next GE. Sadly the SNP’s obsession with independence has meant they have made a mess of the powers they currently have, most have zero confidence they could actually run a country, based on the general balls up they have made! I would suspect it will be another 25 years before a new generation try to pin all… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by John Clark
Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Your statement is only valid for a single moment in time. The actual figures have swung a few percent either side of 50 since 2014. Anyway your argument is not related to the thread of the article. I am amazed at the poor understanding of all the right wing xenophobes who rant in these comments.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

A well argued position Nick, you missed Sassenach basta*d, so I’ll pop that in for you….🤣

Anyone who doesn’t believe in the SNP’s glorious workers paradise, is a right wing xenophobe. Yep that strategy is certainly a winner, keep it up.

No wonder your argument is on its arse, good lord Labour will eat you for breakfast.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

You have just clearly failed in any of your arguments. Resorting to abuse because you cannot respond with anything else. If you were capable of thinking and analysing you would see that the very things you accuse others of is exactly your position. It has nothing to do with believing any party political position (and you do NOT know my preferences in this so making assumptions really undermines all of your arguments anyway). The point is to THINK things through in all their various directions and come up with possibilities and options. Then weigh them up. If you can only… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

“right wing xenophobes”

Yep, looking in the mirror are we Nick😴

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

WTF? Do you actually understand the definitions of ‘right wing’ and ‘xenophobe’. Obviously not, still less able apply that to what happened in recent years.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Nick my dear chap, you appear to have anger issues, I recommend a nice soothing calamine tea, too much Irn bru perhaps?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

I’m not angry just trying to rationalise lots of blinkered arguments. Things look so simple over a pint, or across the dinner table.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

xenophobe (noun) · xenophobes (plural noun)

  1. a person having a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries:

NOUN
(THE RIGHT WING)

  1. the section of a political party or system that advocates free enterprise and private ownership, and typically favours socially traditional ideas; the conservative group or section:

It would seem John is correct, as the definitions are quite easy to understand, and I have cut and pasted them for you to peruse. So this is what they mean, what context in regard to contributors of this site, did you mean, as above? and why did you use them?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

I already knew that, look in a mirror! Most of the arguments round whatever may or may not happen in the event or otherwise of Scottish Independence fit the xenophobe definition! Most of the comments are very anti-Scottish. Such attitudes also invariably inhabit the right wing which is usually based around pursuing what they perceive as traditional ideas and anything that upsets what they perceive as the status quo! As I started with – look in a mirror! At the end of the day nobody but nobody has ever actually justified being a United Kingdom aside from a very narrow… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Cole
Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Oh wow, “look in a mirror” so you are now calling me a right wing xenophobe? Oh dear how silly and presumptuous you are! That little snippet is the funniest of all your flannel! I see you are getting angry and starting to gnash your teeth somewhat 😂👏🏽

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The comments are very much anti SNP, not anti Scotland. Conflating the two has been one of the SNP’s greatest pieces of hubris and the reason many have fallen out of love with them.
What do you mean “no one has justified a United Kingdom”? We’re one island, with little by way of a natural border, we have a common language and customs. Not my use of the word “we” because, to most of us, the Union is “we”, not an English idea. It was a Union of equal crowns, not an invasion.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Why anti SNP? is it because they are the main public face of the ideology of independence which is there regardless of the SNP? No one has justified the Union, other than to say No. No one has actually produced anything that supports it other than to say No to any suggestion of doign something differently and even less to do anything constructive about the things that cause around half the voters to seek independence. Saying no is not a justification. The Union of the Crowns is a different entity. It predated the Union of Parliaments by app 100 years.… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I consider the United Kingdom to be a single nation. Every constituency has the same power in Parliament; indeed, those in Scotland are often those with smaller populations so the average Scottish voter has more power than those in England. The Scots also have the power to elec their own, devolved government specially for their needs, something denied to the English. What the Kingdom votes for is what we get. England cannot be blamed for Scotland voting for parties that do not get into power. The alternative is independence, which the SNP have already tried and which was, even on… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Yes the UK is a single nation, nothing to with what you as an individual consider. The constituencies have been changed for the next election and while also supposedly based on regional relevance there are still anomalies. And the national differences increased (Scotland will have less MPs)! The changes somehow or other seem to have been arranged to benefit the Conservatives, funny that! The whole concept of democracy (and the supposed Union of Equals (Treaty of Union refers) allows for multiple parties. Those parties reflect their electors interests. If you understood the overwhelming number of constituencies in England compared to… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

You misunderstand my point. I meant that you should completely ignore the concept of Scotland and England in considering the United Kingdom. My point was that, from this perspective, the Kingdom is equal. Indeed, as I said above, every Scottish person’s vote counts for as much as an English person, and often more. Pointing to national boundaries to “show” that Scotland is left out is misrepresentative of how democracy actually works. Yet again you undermine your point that Scottish nationalism is not anti English by assuming that all English will vote a different way from Scots. All of the same… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

You still don’t get it. No I did not assume or state that all English will vote differently to Scots. The English proportion comprises 85% so they outnumber the rest by 6 to 1. Which means that it is English voters who set the scene. If a majority of English voters don’t want something then nobody gets it. That is the problem. Made worse by not having an English devolved parliament. You are right that at an individual level each person counts but policies are decided by majority. Of course it varies from time to time,but Scotland has not voted… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

You can’t ignore the differences of opinion. And it is because our current democracy fails to recognise them and respond approriately (NO is not appropriate) it fuels demands. Unfortunately there is a significant democratic deficit in UK, and it is caused by FPTP. Having a majority of MPs would work up to a point if that actually reflected voting intentions, but it doesn’t. FPTP only ever works if there are only two parties to choose from and every constituency was exactly the same size. We haven’t had a government that commands actual public majority support for many decades. The problem… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Marius

the independence movement in Scotland has profound implications for geostrategy and geopolitical thinking not just in the European high north but across the globe. This is actually one of the key fault lines of the 21c geopolitical struggle. if war is politics by other means then politics is war by other means..any fault lines are being used and abused by the enemies of the west..that includes the Scottish independence debate. I will repeat this as many times as needed the Chinese communists party employs 3 million people in active political warfare against the west and one of their aims is… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Barry Larking
Barry Larking
2 months ago

Scotland is already an Independent country. To Nationalists it is not independent enough. It has to be anti-English. That is what drives Scottish nationalism. It what drives all nationalisms – not what we are for but who we are against. Nationalists are always everywhere stunted by this outlook. A collection of bizarre views and sketchy futurology is about par for the course.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

Scottish nationalism is not anti -English. It is anti the corrupt practices of the Westminster cabal and establishment. As an identifiable nation with its own identity it sees Westminster for what it is. You don’t understand!

Tim
Tim
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

No it’s not Scottish nationalists are absolutely anti English

Paul Whitlock
Paul Whitlock
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So SNP are honest and upright biggest bunch of self indulgent thieving politicians eve and you have been outed the people of Scotland see you for what you are self serving leeches you will never get independence now the Scots don’t want your lot running the country they see as our the frying pan and into the fire

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul Whitlock

Come on look in the Westminster mirror. I suggest you start learning how to interpet fake news so cancel your GB and Fox news subscriptions. You seem to be a sucker for fake news conspiracies! If you proof read what you have written it would be a start. Rants do not constitute a rational debate and cognitive dissonance masks the refusal to look at things holistically.

Tomartyr
Tomartyr
2 months ago

A bit vague and perhaps focused too much on asserting sovereignty. For example, while they talked about building new bases on Orkney, there was no mention of an independent airforce.

Playing a ‘taking back control’ narrative is a vote winner for indys; but it’s also necessary to talk about the unsexy stuff, like will an independent Scotland be patrolling its own airspace, or will a deal similar to the one with Ireland be necessary?

Last edited 2 months ago by Tomartyr
Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Tomartyr

The article was focussed on the maritime aspects. There is shared interest in defence, which will not necessarily be hampered by independence, and in fact allows focus on what contribution each nation can make, within NATO and other mutual defence pacts. UK already relies on NATO support to plug gaps in its own capability anyway. We do not patrol Irish airspace, but do act when mutually beneficial or when it suits our needs. Defence as a whole is far more complicated than just immediate resources. It could be argued that we spend far too much on Far-Eastern posturing with our… Read more »

Tomartyr
Tomartyr
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Yes there are various solutions to these problems, and really you can’t begin negotiating these solutions until after a referendum, but the important part is openly acknowledging the problems.
So far this is just a more well informed version of the usual game of getting people excited with the sexy powerful stuff and ignoring the unsexy or inconvenient stuff.

Obviously they’re a politician and I see the incentives to do so, however personally I expect better on such an important matter.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago

A well wrtten and thought provoking piece, far removed from the usual negative narrow and blinkered diatribes of those who cannot think in such broad terms.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I’ve got a couple of views on this: First Scottish independence would be a significant blow to one of the key western powers..the UK has always been one of the western powers with the greatest will to intervene against enemies of its own and enemies of the west. So to lessen the power of the UK and potentially reduce its will to fight would be a major political warfare win for the anti western powers ( china, Iran, Russia) so to expect them not to use their very significant political warfare capabilities to try and bring about Scottish independence and… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

That is an area of concern, but UK is part of NATO, and it should be noted probably the most war-like of the all nations. UL on its own is relatively powerless, given the cut backs in defence. There is no reason why NATO is weakened with the prospect of Scottish Independence, but why should we (the UK) pander to the post empire aspirations of the self-interested Establishment Elite who controls Westminster? How does getting over-involved in Pacific and Far East activities help defend our home islands? Scottish Independence allows a dose of reality into global politics.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Because the whole world is essential to our economic security. Unless the SNP convince the Scots they can exist on a diet of milk, beef and crude oil, they will have to take imports from the rest of the world. A significant proportion of that will come from China, Japan and South East Asian countries. Check your SNP flag. Where was that made?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

NATO is not actually the key here, it’s fundamentally important for regional security, but I’m taking about a more global risk. What happens in the pacific and Indian Ocean is fundamentally important to our future security and that in reality is not related to NATO…china looks at the individual nations of the western world and how willing and able they are to combat it on a global stage..just thinking of NATO is profundity provincial…NATO will not prevent the pacific war that will destroy the world’s economies. If you don’t know why a pacific war will destroy Scotlands economy I suggest… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Up to a point yes, NATO is not the only consideration. The point really is to focus on our strengths and position. Being able to send an aircraft carrier group to the North Pacific doesn’t do much for local defence. That is the key issue. Pandering to dreams of post empire domination are the real problem. If we manufactured more locally within the UK and EU we could ignore the Far East economically, and that is starting to happen with reshoring. The only reason we have things made there is because of businesses exploiting the very cheap labour. In which… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Unfortunately as I said ignoring the Pacific will not make the pacific go away…the only way we keep a peaceful world is by convincing china it cannot win. Have a UK Carrier battle group helps that..china will not just fight the west in the pacific..it will fight across the globe..our security is not just about Northern Europe it’s about every single sea on the planet… I don’t disagree with developing our own supply chain an production..but that does not lessen the need for hard power..you cannot produce if you have no markets you cannot produce if you have no raw… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’m not arguing against the Pacific as such, yes global interests are of significant importance. The point is that we are putting a disproportionate amount of effort in that area when we probably have higher and more immediate local priorities around our Islands. Two floating airfields which in operational terms tie up the vast majority of our Navy are not necessarily much help apart from not being tied to a single geographic location. Our entire major presence in the Pacific can be eliminated by a single anti-ship missile or torpedo, that is the point. We are vastly outnumbered by the… Read more »

Stc
Stc
2 months ago

April the 1st already ? I’ll have to change my tin foil hat it’s obviously giving me faulty signals. It’s up there with typhoons on special escort duty on Christmas Eve. Scotland and the rest of the UK cannot defend its self so Scotland on its own 😂😂😂

Brom
Brom
2 months ago

First and clearly, the SNP DO NOT WANT INDEPENDENCE!

If they truly wanted independence they would not want to join the EU.

They want to be away from England and Westminster and that is entirely different. There’s nothing wrong with that view even though I happen to believe it would lead to negative outcomes for the Scottish people. My opinion for all that’s worth. Thanks for the engagement and the effort to put your view across but to me it seems wishy washy with no real logical thinking.
.

ChrisLondon
ChrisLondon
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

You do not lose independence by joining a democratic union; You do regain independence by leaving an undemocratic one. I understand why they are anti westminster, I just think working with Lib Dems and Greens to clean it up and drag it up to modern European standards is a better option.

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

Of course you lose independence. Whenever you join any organisation that you have to comply with it’s rules rather than make your own choice it’s not independent.

As I say if they want to leave Westminster/England for what ever reason that’s perfectly valid. Just don’t treat people like idiots and be honest about it.

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

You have looked across at the EU lately haven’t you? They are not a bunch of happy bunnies are they?Sweden,Netherlands,Italy,Poland,Hungary and even France are having a wobble at the steady rate of Brussels controlling agenda! So good luck with the independence bit.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

And that is amusing regarding the greens and the Lib Dem’s!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

So you KNOW everything? Your first sentence is a complete and utter nonsense! The EU is a different political animal to the UK. You have not based your opinion on anything other than a statement. You are the one jumping to false conclusions based on your narrow opinion. The outcome of Independence is of course an unknown option, so how are you so certain that doing things differently on behalf of all the population instead of the vested interests of money launderers going to be negative. You completely miss the point which is that Independence allows Scotland to chart its… Read more »

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Do you like the bit where I said ‘My opinion for what it’s worth’. I don’t claim to know it all nor even half. I just put my opinion out there. It’s dishonest to say that you don’t lose independence by joining an political that has rules you must follow. It’s common sense. There’s many reasons why the EU is a fantastic organisation. There’s many reasons why its terribly undemocratic political body. All organisations have their positives and negatives. It’s about making a choice as to whether you feel the benefits out way the negatives. Just be honest about it,… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

It is fair for people to have opinions. However to be valid the opinion has to be based on known facts, otherwise it is merely cognitive dissonance and wishful thinking. Your opinions are not based in verifiable fact, more based on what you want to believe, which again is fine for you but does not necessarily change facts. (Trumpism on steroids!) The EU is not undemocratic. It agrees things based on majority opinion (as does Westminster) from the elected representatives. Such systems generally (Westminster has blown this apart for many decades anyway) work on the basis of common good and… Read more »

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

‘The EU is not undemocratic’ Well buckle up buttercup here’s some interesting questions for you. Who did you vote for as your EU president? Oh You didn’t? that’s right you can’t. Who did you vote for for Commissioner? Oh you couldn’t then either? oops You can vote for your MEP, well done you. What? Really? Your MEP can’t propose legislation that can be voted on? Only what’s passed to them by the commission? But at least you can vote on who’s on the commission eh? No? Oh dear? But at least your country can stand its ground in the EU… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Brom
Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

You have a very polarised view, and ignore the benefits that did come from being a member, and yes you along with the rest of us have already lost out as a consequence of leaving. The EU was a different system, which on balance was better for most people. And there WAS and IS scope within the EU to implement things (or not) to suit national wishes. The only things that were mandated were common standards, allowing much less trading bureacracy, standards which we still have to comply with but now can no longer influence and of course freedom of… Read more »

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Ah lot of stuff in your answer there, Bearing in mind we weren’t discussing anything about there not being obvious and many benefits to being in the EU, You want to have a discussion on that I have no problems, there were many many fantastic things about the EU.

We, however, were talking about the EU and it being undemocratic. was anything I said wrong?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

The EU is not undemocratic, certainly not any worse than Westminster. We don’t have a say in the civil service appoiuntments, which is paralleled by the eu commission. Your observations where not comparing like with like. The baby (free and simple trade to common standards along freedom of citizen movement mainly) was thrown out with the bath water and we all have to live with it. The ONLY reason that Farage and co wanted out of the EU was because of the imminent money laundering and off-shoring constraints. To justify their stance they exagerrated all sorts of things. Classic of… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Cole
Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I ask again, what anything I said incorrect?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

Everything. There is in fact no real substantial difference. You make statements abut the EU and fail to recognise that the same system applies to UK.

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So just to be clear everyone I said is incorrect? interesting.

Want to show me the process for voting for a European president? and don’t try to change the goalposts and go whataboutism with the UK. were talking about the EU and nothing else for the moment.

bet you cant show me how we vote for the EU president

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

We did spend more on the NHS, it just didn’t achieve much because the NHS is bloated and inefficient. £350m in defence, however…

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

By what measures do you mean ‘bloated and inefficient’? What is efficiency? By bloated you perhaps mean too many and overpaid staff? You do not get throughput without staff to process them, and until patients are well enough they cannot be moved until they have a safe place to go to. The demands on the NHS are down to the public wanting or needing treatment. Instead of parrotting sound bites try and think about what the words actually mean in relation to the subject. The difficulty is that the current Government wants to cut costs so they drive down wages… Read more »

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Didnt think so

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I have to say a lot of bluff and bluster in your answer and very little definitive information. Very grey zone!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Like uninformed opinion asserting things that are yet to be negotiated or agreed? Certainty of ‘no’? Things can and do change, as should opinions depending on circumstances. None of the opinion that states ‘NO’ is based on actual fact or contract.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

“Uninformed opinion” who’s yours or mine? Rather presumptuous don’t you think?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Uninformed opinion is one where people have not applied facts to an argument. Uninformed opinion relates to wishful thinking and the assertion of certainties not backed up by actual facts. Assertions with absolute certainty about something that may or may not happen are also uninformed opinion. The article if you care to read it talks about options and possibilities. The armchair general strategists largely occupying (not all as some do take part in intelligent debate and analysis) these forums make so many simplistic statements of absolute certainty, which shows they have not actually either read the article or really know… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Another response whereby you give no information but like the look of your own typing, making an effort to cheer yourself up maybe?

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Have a debate yes, but your opinion doesn’t equate to facts, no matter what your echo chamber reverberates back to you.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Have you actually applied your own statement to yourself? I have not stated any opinions but related actual facts and discussed options adn options in the face of the blinkered silo mentality emanating from many contributors. Asserting wishful thinking or assuming that the status quo cannot and should not change in the face of circumstances is not a debate.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Lot of grey zone waffle my friend, however you are keen to go independent, go for it, no skin off my nose, cheers.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yes grey zone, which means nothing is certain. Option appraisals and strategic analysis are not countered by assertions of opinion. Anyway where have I said anything about going independent? All I have done is look at the various options and argued through them. It is the automatic assumption made by many that leads to partisan and ill-informed dogmatic argument. Listing options, alternatives and opportunities is all about thinking things through and not constraining thinking through assumptions.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Again a reply with little or no information! Your initial post stated why would Scotland not automatically remain in NATO, some commentators challenged that including me, but rather than say it’s possible, you entrench yourself against that view, and argue, not debate, but argue your view in a rather unreasonable and unrealistic way!

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

The trouble with discussing things with Zealots is it doesn’t matter what you say or what facts are presented. I asked him clear questions about a defined subject but he has to add waffle, whataboutism and completely ignore what’s actually been asked.

Do what I did and give him up as pointless arguing with a zealot

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

Certainly a lot of waffle mate 👍

Tim
Tim
2 months ago

Sorry but that picture of scotlands EEZ makes no sense why does it turn right and take English waters

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Tim

That is historic and the map does not form part of any formal agreement. It relate to the redrawing of the national boundaries contrary to international norms some years ago. It’s actual position would be determined by agreement based on the norms at a future date.

Brom
Brom
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

It’s not historic in any way

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Brom

Go and do some research. Look at how international waters are defined. Then look at relatively recent history and see when it was changed to allocate more oil fields to England than were previously the case.

Rob N
Rob N
2 months ago

It strike me that the nuclear policy is hypocritical. They want British SSBNs removed from Scotland but would wish to join NATO a nuclear alliance so it can be protected by other people”s nuclear deterrents including the very ones they seek to remove from Scotland. There is also the issue of NATO accepting Scotland into the alliance. In the same way the SNP talk about needing independence for Scotland not wanting to be run from London. However as soon as they a independent they wish to join the EU and be run from Brussels. As the EU is moving towards… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Rob N

How many nations in NATO have an independent nuclear deterrent? Scotland is ALREADY IN NATO. You cannot even mantain a consistent argument, points in favour of one view are dismissed when they conflict with the looking at it from the other! Brussels NEVER did run Westminster. Look at the treaties, there was ample scope for cultural and social differences across the EU. It is just that the civil service and mainly Tory sceptics who refused to do anything other than abide by the letter deliberatelty to make it look worse than it was. The current UK arrangement means that we… Read more »

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Point of order!Scotland is not in NATO! The UK is in NATO leave the UK you leave NATO. You will not get automatic membership either.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

So you are in control of things? Scotland is already part of NATO or are you the one who decides on NATO matters? You have just jumped on a soundbite and fail to think it through. Where does it say that Scotland cannot be a member of NATO?

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Not really have I?it is fact that the only reason you can claim to be in NATO is you are part of the UK! Leave and Scotland becomes an independent country that would have to apply for membership like any other new country.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

You are not in any position to make thse statements. Scotland may or may not have automatic continuing membership. How many independent countries comprise of NATO now? Are you employed by NATO as chief negotiator or authorised to sign anything off of that nature? You cannot make such statements with any authority. Scotland is already in, becoming an independent country within NATO merely means setting up the necessary infrastructure and transferring it. Fundamentally what makes you think that NATO would disrupt continuation of service and membership? What would NATO gain by such a position? Yes Scotland would no longer be… Read more »

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Righto you obviously are of the opinion that no matter what anybody tries to tell you everything would be ok on the night!can I point you in the direction of ‘The Pin Striped Line’ go back to 2014 and all these points have been laid out for all to see they are as relevant then as they are now.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Oops wrong about Scotland, it’s not actually in NATO as a named member. But I’m sure you know that yes. Cheers.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Who said anything about being a ‘named’ member? Iceland is not a named member yet they take part and do not seek to be a member! Pity that you can’t think beyind the simplistic soundbite which nobody has ever stated anyway. Scotland is already part of NATO, along with Wales and NI? Do you really think that NATO would not let Scotland identify as a national member or cut its nose off by not allowing that? So what is the actual basis of your statement?

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

What is the actual proof you have NATO will allow Scotland to remain? No proof, my statement, however is factually correct as Scotland is not a member of NATO, UK is. Yours is presumption and hope. I have little doubt NATO, rUK and Scotland will work together smoothly to ensure the military status quo, but I always find it amusing how defensive and presumptuous the various SNP “armchair” warriors become when their dream is challenged!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

What is the actual statement that Scotland would NOT continue to be in NATO? Where has it been stated with certainty that Scotland couldn’t be in NATO? Fundamentally think why would NATO not want Scotland to be part of NATO, especially considering geography and that we already play a major role? Why do you assume I am SNP? There is no ‘hope’ about intending to be part of NATO with all that entails, which if you care to read up on it is actually what the SNP have said. The problem, looking at it from a neutral and wider perspective… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Oh dear this is the problem debating with a nationalist, never directly answer a question, then repeat the same nonsense without ever actually saying anything! Ok, what and where is the actual statement that Scotland WILL stay in NATO? Try to answer that without the flannel, cheers!

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

It’s pointless mate! He will not except any diversion from his narrative despite this very subject being discussed many times before🙄

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

Agreed 👍

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jacko

If you cared to think about what I said, it is not diversionary to point out flaws in arguments, especially certainties that have a) not ever been confirmed, b) not yet happened, c) may not happen, and d) never said otherwise. The inability to appreciate this is the flaw in all the rants about what may or may not happen in future. Nobody knows what the circumstances will be. A preference is not the same as absolute certainty. Your mode of thinking is exactly the same as we see playing out with the Post Office inquiry.

Jacko
Jacko
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

What rant? All that is going on is pointing out your false assumptions about Scotland being able to stay in NATO and the struggle you would have even forming a DF! There are multiple threads on this subject on various defence sites(even on this very one), if you can be bothered to Google them..In fact I have one of George’s articles waiting for approval below,perhaps you can read it and learn,I doubt it though you will still bend it to your way of thinking but hay ho it’s up to you.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Perhaps if you learnt to critically analyse and understand what you read and jump to conclusions about you would not need to resort to unhelpful, distracting and plain wrong responses. The problem is that when something you say has been challenged and corrected you have no answer other than resorting to assumptions and unsubstantiated diversionary accusations. You are of the Johnsonian ‘throw a dead cat into the argument’ persuasion. You conflate future possibilities with certainties. Your second last sentence illustrates exactly my first sentence above. Are the BritNats not nationalists? Were those voting for Brexit not being nationalists? Are those… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Cole
Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Oh dear now you are getting grumpy and still waffling, spouting an opinion thinking its fact! More flannel pal, give yourself a tea break please, as you unable to debate, as its your way or the highway. You do not even read others comments and take them into consideration, as all you do is try to bully others with your “opinion”. And for future consideration, if you continue to spout such a large amount of grey zone flannel, put them into paragraphs, as its easier to skim read your nonsense then. Good lad, cheers pal.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Where is the the actual statement that Scotland WON’T stay or join NATO? Try to answer that without flannel, cheers! Where is the statement that Scotland will leave or not be allowed to join NATO? Try to answer that without flannel, cheers! Repeating the same ‘nonsense’, who is actually making nonsense certainties without any authority to do so? I have answered the questions you just refuse to think about the answers that obviously cnflict with your fake news based opinion. This all stated because someone decided to prejudge things that have not yet and may not actually happen. All I… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Oh dear, you just repeat the same chuff. I respond to you challenging a statement and you repeat the same stuff, very much like a child. Very immature and shows a lack of real subject matter knowledge, experience and confidence in your own posts.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Iceland isn’t a member of NATO, they just have security agreements and participate in exercises. Scotland could exist like this, but as an external country not a member. Scotland is not a member of NATO, so they would have to apply as an external country. The logic is that simple.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 months ago

As a Cornishman born in Wales with a bit of the Irish I tell you what I think makes sense for all our futures. It’s called the United Kingdom.

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Agree, with a bit of everything in me I’d suggest it wouldn’t end well. Westminster would want all its good bits back to be spread in the rest of the UK. How many jobs would be lost in the fallout. The SNP might talk about investment but as has been mentioned an Independent Scotland will have to take on its share of national debt. They might also have to content with Independence calls from the Northern Isles. Would be a giant can of worms in my book.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

What sense? Explain please, as nobody has ever actually done that? You might think it does, but can you actually validate the statement and options for doing things better (with facts not inuendo and false predictions)? Some things may well be better but far from all, that is the point and such debates need to look holistically at all factors not just those that suit one perspective ignoring the inconvenient. (Which incidentally plagues British business and even politics as seen recently with the Post Office).

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

You’re going to find something wrong with whatever I say because you’re driven by dogma, So apart from this post I see very little point in responding further.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Dogma! Take a look in the morror of your own comments. Rational debate is not dogma. Sticking to some outdated narrow wishful thinking refusing to consider anything else is the definition of dogma! You are the one being dogmatic! It may be a bit intellectual but you need to understand the consequences of the Dunning-Kruger effect and cognitive dissonance. The flaw in many of the responses to the this well considered and written article which merely talks about the options that are available.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The land of milk and honey eh Nick! I always love the parties with a “national” in their title, always do well for peace and prosperity in Europe….

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

There is nothing wrong with aspirations, after all everybody has them. Those aspirations may often conflict with received wisdom, and seek to improve society, especially if they reflect differing social ideas from the mainstream. And your point about a title is? The Art of War is abut understanding your enemy. Find out what they wish to do (without making any assumptions) and then you can devise an effective strategy. Without resorting to force the way to resolve any grievance or difference of opinion is not to double down on things that form the grievance in the first place! It is… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Like I said, parties with “national” in their title do concern me.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Why and on what basis? And what has that got to do with the core discussion? You are concerned that some political parties are trying to do what they think is right for their beliefs and goals? A name means nothing, it is actions that count. You read far too much into the trivia. If all you can counter corrections to your initial statements is yet more perjortative inuendo then you have lost!

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Cole
Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

“I have lost”, that does show how you think, is this an immature competition, wow please grow up, I’m sure your quite mature really.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves
2 months ago

Not going to happen move on

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

What won’t happen and why? So the solution to a different view or outcome is to ignore it?

Fraser
Fraser
2 months ago

So Scottish defence and foreign policy will be based on the premise that ‘we will really hack off our neighbours, the accursed English, by leaving the UK, evicting their bases, creating a major security weakness for the British and NATO, be led by a political party in thrall to CND and hard left extremists, many of whom favour neutrality and intimate relations with Russia and then we will have good close defence and foreign relations with those despised foreigners south of the border, who will go on building their warships here, using the Scottish defence industries and providing the security… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Fraser

Read all the information. Scotland must be kept in the UK because of selfish English (85% UK population) want it? NONE of what you imagine has ever been stated, implied or certified. You are guilty of believing fake news and misinformation and in fact making completely untrue and unsubstantiated statements. More arguments like yours merely reinforce what some see as reasons for independence! Far too many people nowadays only ever listen to what supports their prejudices and fail to fact check.

Fraser
Fraser
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Well Mr Cole, (or are you really an SNP AI bot, given the time you spend making excessive numbers of slightly unhinged comments to complete strangers?) perhaps you would like to identify exactly which bits of my statement are untrue or fake disinformation. In my personal experience most English people who know nothing about defence or foreign affairs would be delighted to be shot of Scotland and the swivelled eye fanatics who spend their time frothing at the mouth about being oppressed and exploited. You appear to believe that there is only one arguable view and that nationalists like yourself… Read more »

Ex-Marine
Ex-Marine
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Scotland must be kept in the UK because of selfish English (85% UK population) want it?”

You must have forgot the Referendum that the SNP lost? Of course, convenient when necessary. As far as you and the Seps are concerned Nick, you will want a referendum until you get the result YOU want.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Ex-Marine

FFS! The referendum was 10 years ago. In case you haven’t noticed the world has moved on a bit since then. Aside from anything else the unfulfilled promises, vows, backed up by blatant lies and misinformation renders it meaningless. ‘You can only stay in the EU if you vote no!’ being one of them, let alone more powers and greater devolved responsibilities! When the world moves on opinions change and they are NOT set in stone, which is why we have elections every few years, in case you also haven’t noticed that fact. Or do you propose stopping elections and… Read more »

Fraser
Fraser
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The EU referendum of 2016 was not about whether each region of the state would stay in or leave the EU, it was about the whole country. There was no ‘Scotland vote’ as such. Scotland is part of the UK, therefore its population were able to vote just like those of England, Wales and Northern Ireland – and the majority of the UK population voted Leave. That is what happens in a democracy. If Scotland had voted to depart the UK in 2014 it would not have been in the EU, but instead would have been an external third party… Read more »

Ex-Marine
Ex-Marine
2 months ago

Another from the Neverendum party.

Why has the 1999 borderline at North East England/Scotland been changed? You cannot keep on writing falsehoods and damn lies and think the world must accept it. The 1999 convention was agreed.

How on earth can you feel you can speak on military matters at all Martin? Your only job has been politics. You have only been in education before managing to spend an inordinate amount of time in one university or another.

Trying to steal hundreds of thousands of miles of English sea bed, will not get your figures reading right, will it?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Ex-Marine

The 1999 convention was imposed not agreed. It would revert to international norms in the event of independence. You don’t advance any argument by resorting to slurs and ill-founded accusations. Strategic analysis is political by its very nature. Argue about something real not imagined.

Ex-Marine
Ex-Marine
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

How is the truth a slur? A “defence” spokesman who has never done a day’s real work, let alone a day with the military.

Just because the Seps want to change something, it doesn’t mean it will be changed.

Anyway, the people of Scotland saw through the SNP’s folly. Polling results show that. The Labour Party will wipe the SNP out at the General Election.

Dokis
Dokis
2 months ago

As far as the Scots keep their awesome accent, the rest of the world will be happy

terence patrick hewett
terence patrick hewett
2 months ago

The SNP are a pack of carpetbaggers, who will confiscate [steal] private property and asset-strip the country for their own enrichment. Another “parcel of rogues.” The good news is – they won’t succeed.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago

WTF? What on earth are you actually talking about? If that is the level of your debating ability then it is just as well you have no say in anything apart from sniping onthe sidelines, provign people’s case for them.

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Cole
terence patrick hewett
terence patrick hewett
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Sober up.

Jack.
Jack.
2 months ago

Hi from Australia, family of Scots/English descent. 1) What would happen to shipbuilding – would a large amount spring up in England and Wales (I see Belfast is growing already) 2) Is UKDJ based in Glasgow? If so, would you become the Scottish Defence Journal? 3) UK – you’ve got oil at the Falklands, you know you could grow big. You have wealth and opportunity in those locales all over the worlds oceans, you have friends like us out here. You have the tradition. Get some ambition, go big, you “must always choose the open sea.” Don’t wonder what your… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack.

Probably 1) quite likely, but that would be RN building anyway, 2) irrelevant and far too early to know, 3) yes but the world is moving away from oil so it is only any use in the ‘short’ term. There is also more oil in immediate UK waters, whch doesn’t help us directly but because of the way it is sold only really benefits the oil companies and money launderers. And yes there are friends around the world, but our resources for party political reasons are spread too far thin to do much anywhere. We don’t have enough ships, aircraft,… Read more »

Jack.
Jack.
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Hi Nick and thanks for the reply. This reply doesn’t relate to the Scotland article above too much but rather the ‘what to do?’ aspect for the UK and/including Scotland in my post and your reply. How thinly spread are we talking? What’s the budget of the UK look like at present, after a decade of austerity? Where do the earnings come from (London I assume) and where does it get spent? Oil will end at some point (probably used for plastics etc for a long time), but in the meantime while it might not be the best, it could… Read more »

Ian Skinner
Ian Skinner
2 months ago

Good to see this website is supporting fantasy, I do enjoy a good fantasy novel; reading Joe Abercrombie at the moment; it is a lot more realistic than this.

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
2 months ago

A hypothetical article in extremis; a total waste of time and effort for an event that will NEVER happen.
The SNP is a dead duck and becoming deader by the day.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Lazerbenabba

You start off with a sensible observation and then revert to some stupid unsustainable argument. You also forget that independence is not the SNP it is an ideology which regardless of what may happen to the SNP (it is not dead or dying anyway) remains. The same thinking that if you kill off Hamas peace and tranquility will resume in the Middle East! Ideology is not killed off by those actively pursuing it. And political parties all have varying levels of support on specific policies, it all depends on what is the priority or concern at the time.

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

There is a major difference between a political aim as with the SNP, it is not an ideaology as it is with hamas an extreme cult of hate against another ethnicity, unless of course you are suggesting as some have that the Scots are rabid nationalists against the English and some of them certainly give that impression.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
2 months ago
Reply to  Lazerbenabba

The two ideologies are not comparable, BUT a political objective is an ideology! So if someone thinks something could be done better or differently or to benefit society or a group it isn’t an ideology? Wasn’t the NHS created out of an ideology? Didn’t we defend the Falklands out of an ideology? The term ideology does not necessarily mean genocide it just means that someone prefers the idea of something else. Some Scots may be rabid anti-English, but also some English are rabid xenophobes! In general the movement (another term for ideology) is not anti-English it is anti corrupt Westminster… Read more »

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
2 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The virulent and intense dislike north of the border has almost nothing to do with Westminster as the SNP is an encumbent albeit a ratrher useless one BUT I repeat anti English to the core.

Luke Rogers
Luke Rogers
2 months ago

I fully support Scotlands right to self determination if they choose it. I do however feel it is a pretty terrible idea but the UK does need to step its game up to convince them to stay. Campaigning on “look how much worse it can get!” is destined to fail as hard as the EU ref did. The UK has had terrible government after terrible government for 50+ years now. Our measure of success seems to be finding a G7 or “developed economy” doing worse than us in some respect. Hell, I’ve convinced myself. English independence now! Let’s bail first… Read more »

James Cant
James Cant
2 months ago

Thank you , interesting article and subsequent discussion albeit a lot of hot air involved. I’m 70 , a Scot , specifically a Fifer , I’ve been waiting for independence since I could vote . I voted to join the common market a long time ago , not the EU as it has become . I doubt if I’ll see an independent Scotland in my lifetime but I can hope . I’d like Scotland to be a member of EFTA and the Scandinavian council. I don’t hate England or the English , I simply want my country to control it’s… Read more »

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
2 months ago
Reply to  James Cant

You had it in the 18th century and in receipt of a substantial payout from the English treasury but it didn’t take too long as the equivalent of the SNP of that time made a right Horliks then as they do now.

WillDbeest
WillDbeest
2 months ago

Well this will be a completely academic exercise for the forseeable future so no point contemplating it. If there was an independence referendum tomorrow the vote would be to remain in the UK despite the shockingly bad government that we suffer under at the moment. That is how bad the SNP are.

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago

Why do people still push this crass idea? Lets be brutally frank; its just more of the same medieval I’ll chop u back stuff and is utter nonsense in its most literal sense. If lucky an Independent Scotland would be yet another uber weak defence asset at the strategic tip of Europe; if not it would be at best another tiresome neighbour like Ireland or France. Hopefully though England could offload lots of illegal unwanted guests; when it would be goodnight and goodbye Scotland.
Dream on SNP, most of us have moved on, suggest you do the same.