A Royal Australian Air Force P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft successfully concluded its participation in NATO’s Sea Guardian mission on Friday.
Operating out of Sigonella airbase in southern Italy, the aircraft provided NATO’s maritime security mission in the Mediterranean with surveillance and reconnaissance data. The deployment marked the first time Australia has sent a P-8 aircraft to Europe and participated in the Sea Guardian mission.
A RAAF P-8A Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft deployed from its base in Edinburgh, South Australia, to Sigonella, Italy, accompanied by a team of 45 crew, maintenance, and security personnel from the RAAF’s 11 Squadron.
The aircraft completed several flying missions between Oct 3 to 14, over the Mediterranean Sea, conducting overwater surveillance in support of NATO’s ongoing maritime operation in the region, known as Operation Sea Guardian.
“The P-8A added significantly to the maritime picture and overall maritime situational awareness. Operation Sea Guardian also aims to deter terrorism and enhance capacity building in the region. This is the first time Australia has sent a P-8A to Europe, a journey which took three days. The Australian Air Force brought with them a very effective and powerful sensor in the P-8A maritime patrol aircraft which made a significant contribution to the intelligence picture. That, combined with the professionalism, demeanor and flexibility of the deployed personnel provided outstanding results, highlighting Australia’s importance as a partner to Operation Sea Guardian.”
The Commanding Officer of 11 Squadron, RAAF, Wing Commander Adam Saber, said the deployment certified the Australian Defence Force capability to connect to, and operate within, the NATO architecture, adding:
“In this case, it was the P-8A, a highly capable and versatile multi-role aircraft. But this deployment was also more than just the aircraft – it meant our maintenance team working with the host squadrons, our communications specialists and intelligence team connecting with the NATO networks and our logistics personnel moving mission equipment in and out of Europe. The end result – we confirmed Australian capacity to seamlessly integrate into the coalition environment and retain our enhanced operational partner status.”
You can read more here.
I think we will be seeing much more of this cooperation both in Europe and the Pacific as every strategic event seems to spill into the other and everywhere in between for that matter.
A version of NATO for the democratic countries of the Pacific rim (PRTO Maybe) with a mutual defence & cooperation agreement between the two organisations?
That is a nice dream as it could take some of the massive burden off the US military and taxpayers.
The only person placing a burden on the US tax payer is their own military industrial complex. Russia is a joke and Europe is upping its spending considerably.
Yes but not in an organised way- it is still national governments purchasing extra kit that does not offer any of the enablers a unified European wide response should offer. Let me explain.. Germany and Poland are building more frigates, corvettes, MBTs, fighters and some electronic warfare aircraft- yet within Europe only the UK has joint Rivet RC-135 type aircraft.- what would be superior is for the European NATO countries to be allocated a specialist role and to then provide that enabler in addition to their national defence posture. This enabler could be ASW frigates, Nuclear powered attack submarines, a ballistic missile submarine, an aircraft carrier, Air to Air refuelling aircraft, Maritime patrol aircraft, a landing platform dock, MLRS/ advanced long range direct fire platforms etc.
These platforms alone offer just one capability but together they provide an exquisite multi-faceted military capability equivalent to the US.
It could be done- but would need to be NATO controlled and in addition to forces allocated to national forces.
In my book Dan the US have an interest in both the Atlantic & the Pacific and consequently should be contributing 2% to each. Russia is still a significant threat and China is a growing threat.
Totally agree and is needed. Combine the separate arrangements that the US has with Japan and South Korea with the ANZUS agreement and add Canada as well.
Almost all counties in Asia hate each other. Malaysia-Singapore
, South Korea and Japan. Too many bitter rivalries to make a NATO work. AUKUS is the only thing worth fighting for.
There used to be such an organization during the Cold War, SEATO (South East Asia Treaty Organizations) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia_Treaty_Organization
Yes, it was simply allowed to wither away.😥
Given Russia’s complete abject failure, I think it’s time to re-examine our security relationships. Is NATO the right fit any more? should we even be in a multi lateral alliance for security when
A) Have to be on the side of countries like Turkey (not our friend)
B) pledged to defend a European Union which is actively hostile to our interest even threatening to blockade us. (Not or Friend)
C) tied to the USA which is increasingly erratic politically, seems to have more diplomatic consideration for the Republic of Ireland than it does for the UK. (Indeed two of the last three presidents have been openly hostile to the UK) and is also openly hostile to us in trade relations.
NATO works great for the USA and the EU. The USA gets to tie up a potential strategic rival well the EU gets free defence spending but I have a hard time seeing what’s in it for the UK any more.
Bilateral or min deals like AUKUS, CANZUK or our treaty with Japan would seem to be much better for the UK.
FPDA is useless Singapore and Malaysia hate us and would side with China in any conflict.
Any deal with India is also worthless, India also hates us and would side with basically anyone else except Pakistan against us.
There are maybe 5 or 6 countries in the world worth our time.
The UK being an island with nuclear weapons and a effective armed force has very little security threat, I see no real benefit to us inNATO. To a certain point if it ever goes nuclear with the US and China being number two in NATO paints a big target on our head.
Interesting points aukus or 5 eyes top of pile probably. suppose NATO has factored in the various loyalties of various members.
5 eyes is not an alliance but an intelligence sharing apparatus, I’m all for that as it is primarily a series of bilateral agreements. Post Brexit Canada, Australia and NZ have been incredibly helpful to the UK as has Japan and we are on the cusp of securing CPTPP access. The USA that we have spent the last 20 years spilling blood for has treated us terribly and it’s current president and house speaker have it in for us. I increasingly don’t see any benefit in propping up US alliances and coalitions anymore. Much less getting in to a confrontation with China on the other side of the world because America feels threatened by another super power rival.
American politicians and trade ambassadors are fond of telling us how small and insignificant we are so I suggest we follow throw and leave NATO let sleepy Joe and Palosi hold it all together with out us or see if Ireland can hold Europe and America together.
I agree totally with Jim. Having spent time in the army and now being an old codger I have watched as the US has trashed the UK time and time again. They are no friends of ours. People forget that in both world wars the US would not join in the actual fighting to help us until they were forced into it by Germany declaring war on them and Japan bombing Pearl Harbour. Also they were very reticent over the Falklands. We should ditch the US as soon as possible as they would ditch us at a moments notice if it suited them. As an aside I know the Americans very well as I worked for a US company for quite a while.
Lol, at the current US administration being significantly against us.
Yes, there’s a superficial and petty plastic Paddy thing going on with Biden and Harris has the race card in hand. But really, they have still despite that been sensible and respectful enough to us.
Do you honestly think the Republicans would be better?!
Sleepy Joe is an Irish Catholic; go figure his predisposition. There is a counterweight in US military and State Dept.
Was he born in Ireland?
No he has more English than Irish ancestry
That wouldnt have got him the vote in the US though.
Thanks for that Jim, I’m with you on this I’m sick of Americans saying they’re Irish, also think we should try to balance our relationship better with the Americans.
Yeah American Irish, like Kennedy’s dad who wanted to join the Nazis in invading Britain’s and he was the US ambassador. Or the New York Fire and Police department that use to support the IRA through dances until they became victims of terrorisim themselves in 2001. People are welcome to their own opinions but when a president takes prejudice to the point that his mother refused to sleep in a room in the White House because Queen Elizabeth II had slept in the same bed it’s ridiculous. It’s even worse when that man’s ancestry had been proven to be more English than Irish.
The good thing is that the man’s such a lame duck it makes little difference however I’m starting to see why he was sitting in the back row at the Queen Funeral.
Have to say spot on, I’m still trying to work out if they just tolerate us and would prefer someone else to be buddies with
Most Americans, like me, think Britain is the best ally we have. Some have not liked the neutralist slant that Labour governments often had, but that has nothing to do with the basic attitude towards Britain.
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Irish Northern Americans have stuck together for over 200 years and their communities are still strong. They were faced with discrimination and stuck together to persevere. I for one have the benefit of having family who recently came over from Ireland with the other half being here for 200 years. It’s only in the last 30 to 40 years that these communities are marrying outside traditional ethnic backgrounds. Many of them feel and are Irish. Biden’s mom was such a person and passed that onto to him. They are proud of their backgrounds.
Proud of their backgrounds, xenophobic, racist with a victim complex based on the actions of The Plantagenets, Cromwell , William of Orange and the Potato Blight virus all some how justifying their hatred of the British.
Think I met a few of them before. Got plenty in Glasgow as well.
They are not my family nor most that I know. Unfortunate that you have encountered some of these.
Think they’re reflecting more on the deliberate starvation of half the Irish people by greedy English Landlords than anything else. Potato Blight your right in stating was not England’s fault but then exporting what little was left over is Genocide and can never be forgiven let alone forgotten. Am Australian of Irish descent who feels no allegiance to that useless country only for Oz and close allies including UK .
180 years ago, how can you let your current judgment of people be affected by events 180 years ago.
Got bloody loads in Glasgow Jim and round the west coast.
The Irish were more successful in resisting the Normans than were the English, though cities like Cork benefitted a lot from trade with GB and Europe. Dublin was largely a Norse city. Feudal deals with the Plantagenets were pretty normal I think. It all went pear shaped with the Tudors and the Reformation which was successful in making England and Scotland Protestant states ( smart move in Scotland by the Lairds of Congregation to distribute free copies of the psalms in Scots Gaelic). But the Irish held out for their Catholic faith despite the English ramping up the penal sanctions and cruelty over the centuries; the difference being that key Irish clan leaders did not convert. O’Neill in Ulster was one of the most influential. If you wanted to receive food from the British soup kitchens in times of famine in Ireland you often had to renounce your Catholic faith. Even today there is a saying in Ireland ‘ he took the soup’ applied to some family ancestors. It’s not a complement.
Long time to hold a grudge, I’m Scottish I don’t hate the English because of all the battles we had for centuries it was a long time ago people need to get over things 👍
I agree. My families don’t carry a grudge but they are aware of their past. Living well is the best way to live.
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Evidently, ten of sixteen great, great grandparents were born in Ireland. Descendant of the Blewitts of County Mayo and the Finnegans of County Lough. Americans of Irish descent are obviously the progeny of the Irish who chose to emigrate from Ireland, for various reasons. One significant historical episode promoting emigration was the Potato Famine of the 1850’s. Hindsight is always 20/20, but perhaps some of the ill will engendered could have been avoided if absentee British land owners, in an act of enlightened self-interest, had assisted the Irish in preventing mass starvation during that period. These are the types of incidents of family history, preserved in oral and written form, that tend to pass from generation to generation unchanged.
Americans should generally refrain from critiquing anyone else’s ethnic history, based upon our own less-than-stirling history, but occasionally the topic becomes almost unavoidable.
Biden also presumably had a great, great, great grandfather, born in Sussex, UK, who emigrated to MD in or before 1822.
Family ancestry can be complicated. Go figure…🤔😳
Yeah history can be hard to read sometimes, just wish your president didn’t say he was Irish when the reporter shouted to him just shows sheer destain for Britain from the so called leader of the free world about one of it’s closest partners, and I don’t get the trade deal thing surely you try to get as big a trade agreement as possible to try bump up the economy of both nations? when we get our arses handed to us from the Chinese maybe look at each other in a different way?.
Agreed, free trade pact is a no-brainer, should be a mere formality, but there are millions of Americans of Irish Catholic descent who have fervent views on NI. Believe vast majority are affiliated w/ Democrats.
Affiliated with both sides. Irish Catholic Americans straddle both sides of the spectrum. Examples are numerous.
But they run heavily democratic as polls and voting indicate.
Could be . I can only speak to my family (very large family ) and they are a mix. Which is entertaining when getting together. There are many examples of prominent republicans who are Irish-American like Kevin McCarthy, Paul Ryan and Steve Bannon.
Shame the rest of America let’s them act the way they do, we should be long past things like this by now the amount of shit both nations have been through together you would think there would be more respect.👍
Er…sterling….🙄
Yeah just no one in the trade department that wants to know, while relations between military and intelligence are better than ever how long can it continue with out any political leadership. It seems all democratic presidents since Clinton hate us for some imagined historic family reason and all Republican leaders either want us to invade a bunch of countries with you to give political legitimacy or are Donald Trump.
In return we got to be a tier 1 partner on JSF F35 with less access to the program than Israel. We get access to your nuclear weapon designs but it increasingly looks like we are simply paying for US nuclear capability with our submarines under “NATO” control. We also get to pay LM billion’s for a radar than serves to warn America of a nuclear attack but does very little for us other than put a massive target in the middle of our country.
We love America but not sure how much longer our relationship can survive the current climate. It’s not like things are getting better. The USA increasingly has a do as I say not as I do attitude especially on trade which is increasingly winding it apparent Allie’s up.
Countries like Japan and Germany need US security guarantees, we don’t and with the complete collapse of the only country within 5,000 miles of us that could pose any kind of threat I have a harder time seeing the benefits of NATO for the UK.
The EU is even worse, they activity going out of their way to **** us up and even blockading us on occasion.
France hates us and Germany actively goes out of its way to screw everyone over for a few quid.
You do realize that a major war is taking place in Europe and the effort against a revanchist Russia is being led by the US? UK deserves loads of credit as the first western country to start supplying Ukraine with offensive weapons but let’s not pretend that it isn’t the US that has underwritten European security for the past half century.
Yes I’m keenly aware of the war however you do realise Ukraine and Russia are no where near the UK and the UK having the third largest military budget in the world and being a nuclear weapon state means it’s easily able to defend itself against Russia. The UK really does not need NATO and all of the counties inside NATO that do need it are not our friends, so what benefit does the UK get from NATO any more? Would we not do better having bilateral security arrangements with the US and EU tied to trade in much the same way our relationship with Japan is reforming.
Fair but in a globalized world, geographical proximity does not mean you won’t be affected by conflict that has seemingly nothing to do with you.
Also, nuclear weapons are really more of a political tool than a military one. How would the UK defend itself against a conventional attack or a threat to it’s security by a peer enemy, by nuking them? Nuclear weapons is not a guarantee that you won’t get into a conflict. Russia has the most nuclear warheads on earth and they are still getting the stuffing beaten out of it’s military and economy.
There are pros and cons to being in alliances like nato but it’s hard to argue that nato security guarantees isn’t the primary reason that the ussr and now Russia hasn’t started more wars in Europe.
All true however there is now only one country on the planet. (China) that could pose a conventional threat to the UK. To get here they either cross the Himalayas, two continents and about 50 countries or sail the most massive fleet of amphibious assault ships since D Day across the Indian Ocean and pass British bases, fleets and air forces in Diego Garcia, Bahrain, Oman, Cyprus, Ascension and Gibraltar only to land in Cornwall and (maybe) find their entire home country glassed by our SSBN’s. Given our status as a shitty island in the North Atlantic that neither America or Europe think is worth bothering about I just can’t see China being that bothered about us unless we are facing off against them in the South China Sea in defence of Taiwan, the USA or South Koreas security.
I should say I’m not advocating for a withdrawal from our security situation just that a multi lateral alliance like NATO takes the piss out of the UK to the benefit of the USA and EU.
We can have bilateral agreements with both and those are tied to trade just as we are doing with Japan just as Trump did.
We are either friends or not, we can’t be security Allie’s and trade enemies, the world does not work that way despite what the Commission (inquisition) thinks or the Biden Administration(Irish diplomatic mission to America).
The UK makes the second biggest contribution to NATO and gets back less than any other country in the alliance. America pays more, sure but it uses NATO as the cornerstone of its global power, it’s the only country that ever invoked article 5.
Threats are global, sure however our part of the globe is along way from the major issues now unlike 1940.
With a defence budget as large as ours, global military base network we can easily defend ourselves and no one wants to nuke an island that happens to contain 50% of the worlds financial centre for no reason unless your facing off against them.
The world is a bigger and never more connected place than just our isles.
Withdrawing is not the answer. We need to stand up for democracies in the world, if not for moral reasons, then at least selfish trade reasons (authoritarian regimes hardly make stable long-term trade partners). Not that I think we should ever abandon the moral argument.
And no, we can’t do that alone. Only the US could. But thankfully we are allies with them, along with many others.
We can make the world a better place and help maintain it so, for which our armed forces critical. To say otherwise is selfish, cold, naïve, and just plain nasty. And would ultimately likely backfire on us one day when no one comes to our aid in a time of need.
jim what about the NATO round – simple standardization of munitions kit procedures
Your assuming NATO survives the UK’s withdrawal. However maintain standardisation amongst Allie’s is fairly easy. Again not suggesting we don’t have treaty’s just bilateral ones that serve us better.
Jim, I agree in part with your summary, not all.
Yes, the UK should stand up for itself in the same way as France does. It’s something I admire about the French. If it’s good for France, they do it. If it’s not good for France, they walk away or show no interest. The help the UK gave the French in their Mali campaign showed they needed the UK. Without the RAF heavy lift capability, France would have lost that campaign. We really should levy shadow policies with the EU in every area. Another example of our politicians not putting the UK first. From the £1.6bn lost when they threw us out of OUR Galileo project, to the EU’s bad faith in seeing through Sct 184 of the Withdrawal Agreement.
The US are taking advantage of the US-UK relationship. Our politicians should dig their heels in and demand equal treatment. That includes trade. It’s not as if the US couldn’t use the UK as a stick to bash the EU with. They (US) are the power player in the relationship. I honestly feel the US were taking the proverbial in the F35 relationship. Despite the UK bringing positives to the project and the Israeli advantage really irks. They have access to so much more despite not being a T1 partner, but what’s different? They have the F35I, yet we cannot integrate any equipment that would make UK F35’s better, forcing the RAF/RN to use US ordinance, hardware and electronics even if the UK’s is better. Israel only has to shout and the US jumps. The UK gets the middle finger if we dare suggest an equal relationship between the two nations when both pay their own way.
The UK really dropped a big one when Morrison was Australian PM. Had our politicians buckled down and sorted a CANZUK agreement out with a stated aim of wanting that type of union, every CANZUK nation would have benefitted immensely. However, that opportunity has gone with Albanese becoming PM. He is looking towards an EU deal rather than UK. You can almost guarantee that they would deliberately frame any such deal to make UK/AU trade more difficult.
So no and yes. The UK should be in NATO, same as we should have a close relationship with the US, but as equal where possible. We should have sorted it. Now, we need to stand ready to be able when possible, to broker a CANZUK deal and create a supernation of Anglo ancestry who are genuinely close in politics, way of life, outlook, aims and who still think and act alike. The rewards for every single partner would outweigh the downsides massively.
It is a 2 way street though Ian- we provided heavy lift to support logistics into and out of Mali for France, France provided MPA’s (that capability we should never have scrapped) to the UK to screen our SSBNs entering and exiting harbour and ensuring pesky Russian subs were kept an eye on.
Now we have return to the MPA game via 9 Poseidon aircraft I still think we need more of those- I’d say double the number to provide a true enduring and resilient capability.
Not going to happen with the chaos in parliament and the Tory party tanking our economy courtesy of the 45 days of disaster that was Liz Truss.
The Russians still have thousands of nukes and the ChiComs are queuing up right behind. Simple fact remains that neither can afford to let the UK remain an unchecked potential adversary.
Trust me, many Americans have been singularly unimpressed w/ post war Presidents (w/ a couple notable exceptions). Unfortunately, there is not always a Roosevelt or W.S. Churchill immediately available to assume leadership. Most Americans usually attempt to choose the lesser of two weevils (cotton or human). This often would require the wisdom of Solomon…🤔
Hi Jim
I’m persuaded by much of what you say.
However, I wouldn’t dismiss Fylngdales as easily saying it does very little for us. I assume you mean Fylingdales?
Pay LM billions? Do you have a source for that? I believe the US pays for the costs of the radar, we pay for its operation regards manning it and power.
It also acts as warning system for the UK, not just NORAD, with a Duty Officer at H Wycombe at the end of the phone.
It also provides a satellite warning service for UK assets, primarily land based so assets can be placed under cover when a satellite is overhead, but also for space debris.
It’s a positive as much as Menwith Hill is in my opinion.
I do mean Fylingdales and I do mean we are paying billions for it.
https://defbrief.com/2022/03/18/us-clears-united-kingdom-to-buy-new-ballistic-missile-defense-radar/
Clearly the facility has some utility for us however we would benefit greatly from having a radar 5000 miles to our east like America benefits from Fylingdales. Fylingdales is the number one target in Europe for either Russia China, Iran or anyone else looking to attack or threaten the US East Coast or Europe. It’s a really big target just next to our biggest source of refined petrochemicals.
If the UK goes full Ireland style then who in Asia would want to attack us? Russia is gone as a threat, do we really want to now get stuck in to China for countries that treat us like s**t. The US has much more time for countries like Ireland and Israel that are not even official Allie’s and certainly not in NATO so why is the UK, where is the benefit to us?
The other side of NATO is even worse, the EU and Turkey. None of those people like us, none have ever come to our aid and none ever would.
A British BMD radar on sovereign territory in Cyprus with a missile battery would probably serve us much better than Fylingdales. All a UK based radar does is give us a couple of minutes warning that we are getting glassed. Gives the US a lot more time and utility.
Hi Jim
That article refers to Project Lewis, nothing to do with Fylingdales, and it is 700 million, so not billions. We are not paying for Fylingdales beyond the operational costs of its use.
The additional UK SSFAR was one of the recommendations of the 2015 SDSR I recall, but was not actioned with the lack of funds.
There had been speculation as to its sighting and the SBAs in Cyprus were indeed one such suggestion.
As for warning, well, that is what it is there for, and we benefit from it. Do you have the same view regards other USVF locations in the UK? If so, you should check out CAAB Campaign for the Accountability of American Bases, you’ll enjoy what they say. As far as I’m concerned they’re a step away from CND but that is just me.
Campaign for the Accountability of American Bases (themhac.uk)
Interesting I did not know there was speculation of putting project Lewis in the British sovereign base area in Cyprus. Would certainly be more use to us placed there however I’m guessing it may prove too controversial with our EU NATO “allies” and I’m sure America greatest Allie in Israel might not be impressed either. Better to stick it somewhere in the UK where it won’t offend anyone and will give the US East Coast and excellent view.
I joke but I’m sure these are the kind of conversations likely to happen.
Obviously in the UK side the conversation will be about buying the worlds best BMD radar but not any BMD missiles because America has them fitted for but not with.
I think those most miffed would be the Cypriots themselves, judging by their reaction to some of our assets already there.
As to location, well I’d not comment until we know its orientation and how it fits in with others.
BTW, just to please you, I’ve read the siting of Fylingdales is illegal under the ABM treaty. 😉
We all learned something new today then 😀
? Regards what, the siting of Fylingdales?
I still think this expensive new radar is a bit of a waste of cash. It’s a lot of money and does it really make any difference to the defence forces if they have no, 2 mins, 5 mins notice of incoming nuclear obliteration. Maybe for the person who answers the phone and the tiny amount of people that would be notified in time and be able to get in a nuclear shelter in that time. As governments have stated our missiles aren’t targeted so would take a while to respond. (I’ve read days but that seems a very long time)
one final point is why buy an American system We have people in the U.K that can build a big fixed radar. At least part of that money would stay in the U.K. or the money value spent on the American system was to be respent in the U.K.
that 700m and running costs could get a couple of extra E-7 wedgetails or something else.
You’re assuming it is cheaper to build here. By past track record would it?
We’ve discussed this here before, MoD doesn’t benefit. UK industry and HMT do.
As I’m not sure as to the why it is needed I’m open minded. MoD are the experts, we are not. Teamed with ABM, sure it makes more sense.
I’m it could be built for the same price or cheaper it would be ok. If it’s substantially more expensive then yes the USA system should be bought.
The mod hopefully do know best. £700m just seems a lot of cash for a big radar. There’s nothing else in the sky that flys like a ballistic missile and other than being powerful I’m not sure why it’s so expensive. Without the missile defence system it doesn’t really benefit many people over what’s already in place.
I’m no expert so hopefully it’s worth it.
We will learn more in time if it goes ahead. There is also infrastructure at Menwith Hill regards ABM.
Why build it at all? Satalites are so good now, we can differentiate the chemical composition of the bloom the instant a missile is fired and before it’s left the silo or rail. With that type of satalite being so cheap (compared to £700m Radar), you could deploy blanket coverage that would be nigh-on impossible to knock out while removing that ruddy big bulls-eye painted on the North of England.
Hi Ian. I did attempt a reply but it seems to have vanished. I’m no technical expert but maybe they complement rather than having just the satellites.
I’m curious to learn more on the need for LEWIS.
We need to buy an American system so we can plug in to our imperial master system.
I might be happier if after buying ABM radar we actually had some ABM missiles to go with it.
The UK is a small dense target which means that it does not take many weapons to knock us out however it also means missile defence is much more practical in the UK as it is in Israel.
We should be investing in domestic missile defence as priority number one. The days of MAD are long gone. We should be building an evolved SAMPSON for onshore use that can later be used for the type 83 with a UK design and built missile along the lines of Aster 30 Blk II NT for UK a mainland defence plugged in to an ABM radar and AEW able to target cruise missiles. Plug the system in to NATO as well for more depth but a UK domestic missile system should be capable of operating independently.
We are soon suppose to be spending £100 billion a year on defence we can easily afford such a system. It would be a massive export earner as well.
After trussomics if £100b ever comes it will be worth about what the budget is today.
I will be surprised if defence spending is above £80 billion by 2030 and again its relative. If buying stuff costs twice as much and the costs of maintaining the bases, rents, fuels etc have went up 5x any increase is already spent.
That article isn’t about Fylingdale, if you’d bothered to read it 🤦🏻♂️
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Biden has played an absolute blinder over the Ukr war. He has avoided direct USA involvement, supplied $billions of armaments and ordnance, made sure Ukr has the advantage of superior US intel and has done what Trump would never have done – helped a country stand up to the war criminal Putin. Vote Dem at the midterms and it will continue. Vote Rep and they will cut off the support
Yes Biden seems very supportive of Ukraine and Ireland just not the UK, since we are basically the only nation that, can and has made a meaningful contribution to US operations for the past few decades, spent billions of pounds and thousands of soldiers lives supporting US security needs, you would think Biden might have a little bit of love for us, verses Ireland that has done nothing for anyone since it’s founding bar a handful of peace keepers and certainly nothing in support of the USA.
Biden is a liability and is perceived by our adversaries as weak. In part, he plays some role in what has transpired in Ukraine due to his utter mishandling of the Afghanistan withdrawal (that cost the lives of 13 US servicemen by the way).
Don’t get me wrong, Putin owns it but he calculated that the US – and the West in general – wouldn’t do anything based on what happened in Afghanistan. Biden also showed his hand early by saying the US wouldn’t get directly involved. I will give credit though, in the support provided to Ukraine and the commitment to keep it going but he should have kept the Russians guessing as to what we would do next.
Worse still, China is now pondering a grab of Taiwan before the next Presidential election in 2024. Indeed an article in yesterday’s Telegraph has the head of the US Navy and also Anthony Bliken, both stating China could seize Taiwan still this year!
Absolutely agree w/ your text! Spot on (as I assume Brits would write). 👍👍
Your right jim ,Biden does seem a little cold when it comes to the UK the US not so keen to fight with out us been along side them one remembers well.😶
Perhaps, but I generally attempt to discern which candidate has the more rational voting record. My ballot would appear to read like a menu–one from Column A, one from Column B, and usually a fervent wish that there were options in Columns C-Z.
I pity your choices, I can only say that we have Liz Truss and Bojo might be coming back 😀
Maybe Xi Jinping is right 😀
if you’re any US president you play to irish roots voters (plastic?), and secondly, they see Britain as the past faded colonial power when it suits the narrative of freedom and self-determination. .
Actually Biden is of English decent. William Biden left England and emigrated to Maryland when it was a British colony. The British and Irish are much of a mix so virtually most English will have some Irish ancestry. So I think President Bidens attitude is shaped by wanting to appeal to voters of Irish decent rather than some heart driven love of the Irish. Which if you think of it is worse. Would the US really put their cities at risk of Russian nuclear destruction, if Russia launched same on the UK. NATO or not i doubt it and frankly I do not think we should expect them too.
I appreciate you putting that opinion out there but i just can’t agree. NATO as a military coventional force is formidable…UK going it alone is just not. I know which team i would rather be on if the shit hits the fan even if some of the members aren’t necessarily our best friends.
Hail fellow(s). Well met (historical not contemporary usage). Thank you to entire contingent from 11 Sqdn, RAAF, for your participation in the continuing Sea Guardian operation. Another ancillary benefit flowing from AUKUS treaty. This mission will certainly have been clocked by Mad Vlad’s Orcs as well as scum-sucking, slimeball ChiComs.
OT –Navy Grounds 193 T-45C Jet Trainers Over Engine Fault. So the USN Hawks also have an issue.
Great stuff Aussie! I believe a couple more are on the oder book, to round up the inventory to 14. RAF and MOD, are you taking note – 14 and not 9.
Hi Mate,
How was your holiday here in Oz?
Yes there are two more on order to bring the RAAF P-8A fleet up to 14.
You Kiwis now have to convince your Government to increase the RNZAF P-8A order by a couple of extra aircraft too!
Cheers,
Hi John, great holiday Mate, thank you. Absolutely , I’d like to see a couple more P8’s for the RNZAF.
Have you seen the size of Australia’s coast line compared to the UK. 😀
A sound point Jim, however the North Atlantic is might big place!
.
Wow. That thread sure took a sharp turn downhill. For an article that was ostensibly about an Australian contribution to a NATO operation, it degenerated quickly into an across the pond slanging match. From tired historic tropes about the US obsession with the Irish-Catholic ancestry of US presidents to the post-Brexit wailing chorus that nobody ‘loves’ the UK.
I hope a decision maker in Canberra is reading these comments then goes to the Halls of Remembrance in the Australian War Memorial and reads the names of every one of the 60,000 plus Australians who died fighting a European war in WWI and the 3,500 RAAF airmen who lost their lives in bombing raids over Germany in WWII.
I hope they persuade our current PM to follow the lead of wartime PM John Curtin and immediately recall that P8 from Europe to the Indo-Pacific where it is needed. This discussion perfectly illustrates why Australia should never ever again get involved in the European theatre or NATO in any way shape or form.
For the life of me I cannot understand the current ADF obsession with wanting to be an underappreciated junior NATO partner that might suck us again into a European conflict when we have a rampant China on our own doorstep.
Actually, my first post was an accolade of the Aussies–until drawn into another discussion…I should be more mindful. Apologies, folks.
Mate,
Yes the comments have been a bit pathetic to say the least.
Sounds more like a couple of old fishwives screaming at each other.
And I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s an ADF obsession with NATO, or our other global partners, we do our bit, appreciated or not is besides the point, at the end of the day it’s the Federal Government that makes/approves those operational decisions, not the other way round.
Cheers,
I think it’s primarily because you have a population of 30 million people sitting on a continent filled with all the resources in the world located quite near the worlds largest and most belligerent country that has just built the worlds largest navy and seems to covet that very large empty island you all live on. I get the impression your governments looking for friends.
Just as you sat out against the soviets in the 70’s and 80’s as they were no where near you and posed no threat to you we are just asking if the UK should do the same now. China being nowhere near us or having any interest in us.
That being said I along with most on here love Australia and it’s people and would be more than willing to come to Australias aid as you did for us. We have bilateral defence treaties with Australia which work great, Australia along with Canada and NZ have been of great service to the UK with CPTPP membership as opposed to the multi lateral command structure we have with NATO which I don’t think serves the UK’s interests any more especially considering the other members of NATO are quite willing to screw us for nothing.
Australia didn’t entirely ‘sit out’ the Soviet era of the 1970’s and 80’s. Between 1978 and 1992 RAN Oberon Class submarines conducted clandestine intelligence operations (logged as so-called ‘mystery boat patrols’ – in all some 16 six-week patrols are now known).
The main target of the secret RAN patrols was the huge Soviet base at Cam Ranh Bay on the east coast of Vietnam which, by the late 1980s, had become a highly significant base for Soviet submarines, surface ships, bomber aircraft and troops. From Cam Ranh Bay the Soviet Navy could move into the Pacific to target the west coast of the US and it was close to Australia’s vital sea-lane communications.
RAN O-boat operations monitored and recorded communications and the sound signatures of Soviet surface ships and submarines. They sometimes approached silently to within feet of the vessels to photograph their propulsion systems and underwater sensors and sonar gear a dangerous process known as ‘underhulling’. Less than 10 members of the sub’s crew were aware of their underwater location with curtains placed around chart tables to discourage curious ratings. The patrols were part of a broad Western submarine effort, led by the US and Britain, to check expanding Soviet sea power and to monitor Soviet communications.
From the early 1970’s Australia not only contributed to Five Eyes intelligence gathering of Soviet and Chinese activities through joint US-Australian facilities that were in effect the primary southern hemisphere and western Pacific listening and intelligence gathering stations, but by hosting them became a prime nuclear target ourselves.
As it turned out the UK was never directly involved in a shooting war with the Soviets. Australians, on the other hand, were fighting and dying in Vietnam over a 13-year period to 1975 (521 dead and 3,000 wounded of the almost 60,000 Diggers who served in the conflict). So yeah, we had some other things going on in the Pacific while the UK was playing cat and mouse with the Soviets in the Atlantic.
You’re contradicting yourself.
You said Australia should withdraw into itself over some forum comments, but then hark on about how Australia didn’t sit out of the Cold War.
Australia are a highly valued part of the democratic community and security for it. People like you aren’t helping though with your petty attitudes.
Australia certainly made vital contributions in its region in the Cold War. However in terms of main theatre of operations in the Cold War Indo pacific was quiet. Now with the collapse of Russia and the rise of China it’s the reverse. The UK has debts and ties of blood with Australia and should definitely come to its aid in any circumstances. Japan has shown great willingness to work with the UK in defence and trade and is also one of our oldest treaty allies.
The US at best takes us for granted and Europe is openly hostile to us. NATO binds us to them in a way that offers us little benefit. It was a worth while structure facing down the Soviet Union. It’s only purpose now is to bind Europe and the USA in to an alliance to give Europe cheap security and the USA defacto control over Europes foreign policy.
The UK does not need the security guarantee, is the price of relinquishing an independent foreign policy worth it. In the past probably yes however with an increasingly erratic US leadership hell bent on a direct confrontation with China then probably not.
The way you write it, you’d think us Aussies just sat around on our arses after the end of WWII, and it was ‘all quite in the Asia-Pacific region’ too.
Clearly that’s not the case.
Australia took a major, and leading, role in the Commonwealth occupation forces of Japan from 1945 until 1952.
RAAF aircrews were also involved in the Berlin airlift.
Then of course there was the Korean War, then the Malaysian Emergency, and Konfrontasi with Indonesia too.
Oh, and that other little war in Vietnam that saw approx 61,000 Australians serve from 1962 to 1972. Remind me again of the UK contribution in Vietnam? Zero wasn’t it?
Since then there has been operations in both Gulf Wars, Afghanistan, more recently in the Middle East against ISIL.
And not forgetting Peacekeeping operations in Africa, the ME, Timor, Solomon Islands, etc, etc.
Actually the ADF has been involved in close to 100 Peacekeeping operations since 1947.
So yes, whilst we didn’t have forces stationed in Europe during the period of the Cold War, we have been rather busy elsewhere.
It shows that the ADF can aid in the collective defence of all which is what a lot of countries are doing currently. Other allies are filling that gap in the Indo Pacific so that the ADF can free up a P8. Good on them!
You forget Saratoga and (on the quiet) HMS Victorious holding the line after the Battle of Eastern Solomons sank or knocked out every other US carrier, when it mattered. Cheers from Oz also.
https://www.armouredcarriers.com/uss-robin-hms-victorious
Here’s a little bit of lesser-known history, for those who are interested.
Sorry mate. Served with a fair few Aussies. I would go back to the colours in defence of Australia. I, like many Brits, have a fair few relatives in Oz. NSW, SA, Vic and WA. We are everywhere. I have several good mates there too. So please, be aware that while some may question the objectivity of going toe-to-toe with China, tens of thousands of us would be in the queue to catch a transport aircraft should anyone threaten or (God forbid) do anything to Australia.
Save for New Zealand and Canada, the UK and Australia are not allies, we are family, real flesh and blood. Over 1.4 million people in Australia were born in the UK and 16,130,534 Australians say they have UK heritage. So please, remember we would jump in front of a train for you.
Bravo.
Hear! Hear!
Well said Ian B!
In other depressing news the C-130 fleet has been put up for sale absolute joke
It’s needed no doubt. Something or someone cut the Zep fibre cables yesterday. cutting traffic to India and USA by a third. That could possibly suggest someone (Russia) is sneaking about creating damage.
I have looked to see if there has ever been:
Such incidents and damage has never happened, not so many instances in short timespan.
The MOD not ordering as many P8’s as we really needed to ensure 10 were available for flight ops, now looks extremely short-sighted.