Babcock has welcomed home HMS Montrose, part of the Royal Navy’s Type 23 frigate fleet, to her Devonport base port following the ships 4-year deployment from the UK.
With the Royal Navy’s presence in the Middle East handed over to HMS Lancaster in the Omani port of Duqm, Babcock has played a significant role in keeping HMS Montrose operational on her international mission during her deployment including the 3 ½ years she spent in The Gulf.
“Babcock works in partnership with the Ministry of Defence and commercial partners through the Surface Ship Support Alliance (SSSA), to ensure that the Class remains relevant and operationally available against today’s threats and de-risks future transitions back into service. In January 2021 Babcock’s joint venture with Oman Drydock Company completed a first-of-its-kind double diesel engine replacement for HMS Montrose, from Duqm Naval Dockyard (DND) in the Middle East, to support operations within the region.
The work was carried out as part of an extensive fleet time, at reach, support programme which historically would have happened in the UK, demonstrating the Global Support capability that Babcock delivers internationally whenever customers require it. The DND team also stripped back HMS Montrose’s flight deck and other areas of the upper deck and completely repainted them; they also undertook funnel cowling repairs, as well as built and tested a new, main shaft seal cofferdam to enable maintenance and repair of an underwater seal. All activity was completed within a timely eleven-week repair period.”
Welcoming the ship back to Devonport, Gary Simpson, Managing Director, Support – Marine, Babcock said:
“It’s always poignant to welcome a ship back to port following time away at sea protecting the interests of the nation and international allies, especially for the families and friends of HMS Montrose here today. Babcock is proud to play its part in keeping the ship operational and her crew safe and secure throughout their international deployment. Globally deployed capabilities play a larger role than ever in how we help to keep customers assets mission-ready and we are tuned to deliver this. It’s great to see HMS Montrose back in Devonport following her illustrious tour making a real impact to global security.”
You can read more on this here.
Still in reasonable nick. Do wonder what thought being given to reserving a couple until new vessels operational, considering the current low level of seasonal good cheer among nations and the rate at which aggression leads to your older gear becoming critical.
Goes for all the UK forces really.
Maybe placing in some kind of extended reserve would be the best idea. The RN has zero spare crew. However I think there will still be a lot of utility left in T23 at the end of their life. There are still very few warships as quiet and as capable in the ASW role as T23.
The UK needs to get better at maintaining equipment in reserves again.
Montrose isn’t equipped for ASW she is one of the 4 remaining GP versions so no ASW sonars and she hasn’t received the PGMU upgrade.
So it would cost a lot of ££’s to refit her again and then what ?
She would have to be laid up due to manning issues, we just do not have sufficient crews to man all the ships.
Personally I would give her a limited refit and use her as a seagoing Training ship to help increase the numbers of crews we will need.
That is a very good idea. There is a lot of life left in Montrose, and I’m not entirely sure we are that starved of personnel that she can’t be manned. I would certainly keep her going and even have her assume the role of escorting vessels in the seas around the UK. Absolutely barmy to think of withdrawing her in the near future.
The RN has been essentially running manned on the basis of X number of T23 being in Life Ex refits and the less said about the T45 the better.
Now that the T23 refits are complete and the T45 are coming back on stream there just aren’t enough left to crew more vessels.
Training would be the best possible use for her, it would be reasonable to assume that the new build T26 & T31 will not ne needing so much TLC for a few years.
I don’t know if u could say she has lots of life left in her. Based of what I’ve heard she has been working hard for the past few years and would require an 18-24 month huge costly £100m+ refit across most of the ship to get another 3 years service out of her. Use that money to get the most out of the other type 23s and getting type 31 up and running would be my guess.
No there is not a lot of life in her. I have done extensive maintenance periods on her over the years . I know first hand what state she is in.
Her time is well and truly done.
None of the GP 23s are due to get PGMU, so how does it differ from Argyll, Lancaster and Iron Duke? What refit will she need these don’t?
Montrose had her lifex refit between 2014-2017. Just under 3 years to get her operational again. The ships have all mostly went through that now. That was to see her through the next 5 years and she has been to the pacific, been in the gulf for 1000+ days among other places. I can only imagine the state of her after having a couple of hundred sailors stomping around for 5 years.
Yes that’s why I’m suggesting leaving them in extended reserve. We need to get back to the mentality that we had pre 1991. Not everything needs to be active to be useful. Building new warships takes decades and T23 is still pretty capable although if it had to come back to the force it may need extra kit. That’s 10 times easier than building new ships though.
If it’s useful she could be a stationery training ship. I think when talking of putting things into extended reserve it may be a lot harder and costly than it used to be. I don’t have much knowledge on the topic of keeping warships ready to go back into service after a set period. She is passing her 30th birthday. I do wonder how the type 22 ships still manage in other navies? But I never hear of them actually deploying especially the way the RN use ships.
She has 2050 active sonar like every single T23. She has exactly the same machinery fit as all the other T23s be they tail equipped or not so she is quiet
ASW is not just a passive tail. It’s also active sonars and getting a link picture from other assets that allow you to prosecute subs with MTLS or Wildcat Ponies using Sting Ray.
So is the plan for the Lancaster to stay in the gulf like what Montrose did and then retire on return?
The frigates really have done a great service and changed a lot since they were planned.
Morning GB, wonder if she could ever be done up a bit and donated to the Ukraine? Maybe used with the 3 Sea Kings going over? Didn’t some T22s go to Romania and still going strong? Maybe with the Monmouth too.
They could do but unless things change she cvouldnt get through to the Black sea due to the Montreux Convention.
Hi GB, I was thinking that if they were flagged as “Ukrainian” and allocated to Odesa that they might?
The Russian leadership are real buggers aren’t they?! Hope Ukraine can push them all back into the Azov sea, then sink their bloody ships and subs and blow the bloody Kerch Bridge up for good, well at least the middle section!! They might need to plan to build a canal link for shipping across the top of the Crimea peninsula to bypass the Kerch Strait too.
It’s an interesting thought. I’ve often wondered why the Royal Navy doesn’t have dedicated training vessels like some of it’s peers. Is it purely a money/manpower issue or just a different way of doing things?
Why would we need one?
We trickle draft. You learn stuff on the vessel you join via task books and exams.
we don’t have enough sailors because the one’s we have are too disillusioned and spending tio long away from home twenty thousand Nepalese tried to get a place for the 400 recruiting to the British army. those that don’t make it should be given an option to join the RN.H.M.S Gurkha anyone?
Is that true, does does she not have a capable hull mounted sonar, unlike T31 and an STWS for Spearfish too? GP T23 may not have a towed array but that doesn’t make them totally incapable when it comes to ASW IMHO.
What, no ASW sonar? I guess no radar unless the mission is air defense, or no guns unless the mission is counter-battery… :wpds_unamused:
if the carriers can be expected to give 50 years service, then all other vessels should as well.
She has served her country well. Farewell HMS Montrose when it comes.
She’s almost done as far as the RN is concerned- according to Navy Lookout she will conduct a farewell tour before decommissioning in Spring 2023. Spare parts recovery and scrapping await.
A replacement for HMS Bristol, perhaps ?
Yes you’d think there could be value in retaining one of the T23’s as a permantently moored harbour trianing vessel to help with cadet training.
Point with HMS Bristol was she had enough capacity to convert into classrooms for training. Previously, you had County i.e. similar size.
I have seen the point mentioned by a few people now, regarding ships crews. Is the Royal Navy that short of personnel?
Manning is pretty good at present.
Im not sure ABCRodders really has a first hand grasp of the situation regarding systems and their use, manpower and ship equipment availability.
I am basing my answer on 2 factors :-
Firstly HMS Lancaster requires 2 crews to rotate when forward deployed in the gulf.
Secondly I do hope that you would accept the present Chief of the Defence Staff as having a first hand grasp on things.
Admiral Radakin in his supporting evidence to the U.K. Defence select committee in Nov 2021 to explain why Monmouth and Montrose were being taken out of service early.
I quote :-
“There is clearly a relationship between the number of ships in the Royal Navy and how many days of availability for operations we can deliver. That relationship is, however, a complex one, driven by how much resource, in both people and money, is available to crew and support those ships and how much time they must spend in deep maintenance,” according to Admiral Radakin.
Initially, the two frigates were scheduled for lengthy retrofits, from 2021 until 2024, before retiring in 2026/2027, so their retirement has only removed 51 months of availability. Furthermore, older Type 23 refits are increasingly costly, whereas sustaining a Type 23 on operations post refit is significantly cheaper.
Additionally, as stated by Admiral Radakin, extending three ships in service (HMS Argyll, Lancaster and Iron Duke) to get maximum value from their funded or completed refits generates an additional 135 months of availability. All in all, the combined effect of these measures thus generated “an additional 84 months of General Purpose Type 23 availability between 2021-2029, a 55% increase over the pre-IR plan,”
The rotating crews work well. 4 months on the ship 4 months off. That way they get their required time in base port for family time over a drafting cycle whilst delivering max ship at sea time.
Shore time isnt all time off. Lots of career courses, training and assisting other ships. The Off crew does do “stuff” that ends up as a plus on the RN overall available manpower books. Its a similar story with the Rivers, Droggy , FSU and MCM crews.
The Gulf T23 spends most of its time out. As with all RN vessels there are pre planned maintenance periods alongside which have UK and local yard assistance. These are usually 30 days in duration every 6 months (ish). Notice for sea of 48hrs is usually maintained throughout.
Montrose delivered unbelievable days at sea and availability. She had some issues with big bits of kit that required UK and local assistance to fix. The RN has learnt lessons from these on getting Logs and Engineering support to units far from UK base port so Lancaster will probably be in a better position in the coming years.
That said, Lancaster is a Pompie ship and her maintenance is controlled by BAe whilst Montrose was Guz and controlled by Babcock. Neither companies do things the same way and each have their own way of doing maintenance periods. When Lancaster has her next big alongside maint period it will be interesting to see how it goes.
The bit that concerns me about the future is the plan as I understand it is for some of the forward deployed OPVs will replaced with T31 frigates.
Surely on the basis of how the Rotation system is used in the Gulf we will need an uplift in personnel to crew them ?
Admittedly they require smaller crews than the T23 but in the transition period we need more people.
Expanding any organisation is always problematic and great care has to be taken to ring fence certain technical roles for retention and early expansion.
So I would see if Montrose could be kept in service and also carry out the PGMU on her.
I’d use her solely as the local service Frigate but with an emphasis on Training new recruits and technical staff. Hence the suggestion of carrying out the PGMU (no sense trying on Paxmans).
The crews when back in the UK on there 4 month off ship augment other units , train and carry out other tasks as well as take leave.
There should be ample personnel to crew the vessels. Drafty normally works with a 5-10 year plan on what numbers he needs. With T 31 replacing OPVs and eventually Lancaster he has enough time and flex to sort out the crew numbers.
Sandowns will be gone soon followed by Hunts so manpower will be released from not just the ships crews but also the people in the training pipeline who would relieve them. Some will move over to the Drone boats but that will mostly be Muppets. Engineering support is already allocated for MCMV via FSU teams which will also be adjusted numbers wise as it takes less people for small boats than an MCMV releasing further people.
I admire your faith in defense planning. I hope it isn’t being done by the same folks who planned the RAF fast jet Pilot requirements for the F35.
As for the draw down of the MCMV releasing personnel, I just don’t see how we can forward operate them without dedicated Motherships ?
I know that the “T32” was intended to be able to operate autonomous systems but last months NAO report pretty well confirmed that given present funding they and the MRSS aren’t affordable.
Perhaps the answer is join up with the Netherlands, Belgium and France and build a version of the City class.
And then we will need more crews.
Over to Mr Wallace methinks.
Motherships are coming, 3 I understand, STUFT types.
I’ve read the same thing an Offshore support vessel type to be operated by the RFA and in service by April 2023 which is a bit of a change.
Which does raise a few thoughts :-
1. Is that a stop gap or a long term solution ?
2. As the U.K. is probably more vulnerable to mining than most other countries is this really adequate ?
3. On the other hand the RFA have a hell of a track record of taking STUFT and maximising their potential. And this type of ship is blooming tough, flexible and there a lot out there.
So either it can be us doing something on the cheap or someone has looked at the purpose built motherships and decided that they are overkill.
Voltaire said something that may apply.
“The Best is the Enemy of the Good”
Which translates as trying to achieve the perfect solution may just stop you getting something that does the job adequately.
Just think Panther vs T34 or M16 vs AK47
Oh and seasons greetings Daniele.
Does the UK have a ‘mothball programme’, where ships such as this are retained as a reserve, in case needed?
Not really. It has different states of readiness from immediate to extended readiness. Like the assault ships, one is in service while the other doesn’t move for years, then they swap. If required both could sail but it would take time and crew.
sick of hearing babcock.
…..and straight to the scrap-heap, no doubt.