Britain and Germany to develop combat drones together

It’s Switzerland ! Keep up in class.

I know about Switzerland! But what are WE buying from Switzerland that we’ve wanted to send to Ukraine. Shells for Gepard aren’t anything to do with UK

Thing is though, there’s been a slew of announcements about developing drones, hypersonics, L.R. missiles, digital software that’s supposed to enhance lethality etc, but nothing about immediate needs such as more Archer, NMH, GBAD, SHORAD, T1 Typhoon retention , Spear 3 etc. That’s the stuff that’s needed now, not the luxury of some MIC talking shop that milks the taxpayers and shows nothing.

Mate. Fully agree. HMG prioritise the MIC over the military every single time.
I’ve held this rather cynical view for years.
I agree, we want tangiable improvements and announcements now on kit.

Sadly I agree, although a lot of the announcements are coming with a requirement for deployment by 2027, which is a very interesting timeframe as that’s is the timeframe a certain communist dictatorships call to be ready for war.

Appreciate your point re 2027 deployments, but unfortunately we’ve seen so many times how these deployment dates slip to the right, or disappear altogether.

Would argue that CAMM and Meteor are definitely of worth…

Meteor is not UK missile, it is from multiple Euro countries

true that was a bit of a stretch, but thought it would count as it did come from a UK requirement and lead to the formation of MBDA.

It’s was British lead, it’s as British as Aster is French.

Is the F35 American? It’s about the same.

Is Aster french then? Does that mean that Europe is shit and America is amazing?

Aster is made by Eurosam which 2/3 french and 1/3 Italian

And it is funded 40% by the UK with five other partners taking 60% between them..the Uk is by far the largest shareholder.

If it’s not a UK missile how come we could sign up with Japan for a solo development of the follow on missile?

No one else in Europe was involved, How do you figure that was possible?

Every product has multi national elements Meteor is a British programme, British designed and controlled, that’s the point like all western aircraft have British ejection seats amongst other things.

Exactly, show we any western weapon that’s not the same.

That’s like saying the F35 is not American because the UK was a development partner. If you look at the share distribution of meteor the Uk is the largest partner.

Yes commrade 😀

Ridiculous comment US sourced armament is relatively small really and far from ‘all’. Even F-35 has a lot of UK input. Equally outside of armament lots have come out of Britain the past two decades, is Arm worthless, is DeepMind worthless, is Engineered Arts worthless, is F-1 and Formula-E tech worthless, is the Blue Laser worthless, are Bae and Rolls Royce worthless, what about the most efficient electric motors in the Word, are they useless? Only your argument is worthless and I don’t know if that comes out of this Country as yet.

Send in F1s to Ukraine 🤣

Not until we have replacements- sorry Tullzter- I agree the tranche 1 typhoons should go to Ukraine but we have to have replacements- be that more F35Bs or a new batch of typhoons to see us through until Tempest arrives- my preference is typhoon as it can carry all our current best munitions and the new radar set should be a force multiplier.
Much hinges of the SDSR 2025- we all await that one with worried holding of our breathes.

Really, only some of the best guided weapons of their class on the planet..meteor is by far the best AA long range missile available. The asute is arguably the best SSN on the planet in regards to ASW capability ( its recognised has having the best sensors and was documented as being able to hold a USN Virginia class at range …mainly due to its sonar having a larger aperture).

F35 point proven, remember when it was a joint development aircraft and we were a tier 1 partner then it suddenly became an American plane.

Please list all the other aircraft America has “jointly” developed.

The list is short, admittedly. But they can afford not to have to collaborate. We still are a tier 1 partner with F35. The Harrier GR5/7 Was jointly developed with British Aerospace and Macdonall Douglas. As was the T45 Goshawk.

Perhaps USA is useless at international collaborations because they have little experience of this as they prefer to ‘go it alone’.

I think its because they can afford to go it alone.

They are very good at blocking integration of world class weapons – think Meteor, SPEAR 3 What the USA seeks is commercial dominance and hegemony

Also they talk a good story on partnership up until you are fully committed/destroyed any sovereign capability. Then suddenly you find it all reverts to US control or they pull out to develop their own copy of your tech

I got the reference although some non Brits might not.
They had better get the paperwork right.

Love marmite

For the FCAS, we are not sure of what we really want. That’s why the Rafale F5 is started, as a way to buy time. US projects (Airforce NGAD and Navy) are canceled. Only things we are sure is that we want a drone, long range bombs and missiles, powerfull radar, passive radar. We are also sure that GNSS is over in many situations, long range communication with a drone in combat mission is impossible as well. What we don’t know is if it is worth something to build a 250M€ plane. What AI will achieve. Under these conditions, we develop what is worth something and don’t for what is worthless. Stealth is no longer valide, as shown in Atlantic Trident. Long range weapons is important as demonstrated by Russians long range glide bombs. Numbers are extremely important. Long range flying and low consumption is important. So… it is impossible to know if it is good to sprint for a new plateforme right now.
In this sense, I understand the collaboration initiated with Germany on drones, even if it is a partner not easy to work with, but a respectable one.
On France side, we will go with the club Rafale for the drone.

NGAD is very much not cancelled.

The Navy program will receive 50 million dollars instead of 400 million in 2025. The program is unofficially halted. Even in France people could not do much of a warplane with 50 M€ per year. The NGAD received no letter of program in June 2024 and the hypothesis behind it are sharply criticized by head of US Air Force procurement, government and pentagon. All the power of the big 3 did not change anything. They have been rebuked. It is at best postponed and will not receive the funding required to start. US is going back to the ideas of Will Ropper at the moment, for a century series approach: specialized platform with a lifespan of 15 years.
It is in all US specialist newspapers. I think they are right. We are preparing for a possible major confrontation. It is no longer time to replicate the F35 industrial strategy. Very costly, very unsafe. This is why SCAF is slow right now. Germany and France are not sure it is the right approach. I admire UK enthusiasm for Tempest but do not share it.
The sure thing is the light UCAV. So decision announced today with UK and Germany make sense. China is preparing something special, and it won’t be an expensive jet. They have invested so much in UCAV that I am at high difficult to list all of the specialized one and all the engineering team they have set. With 3 majors contractor certain to win the deal, US is in terrible difficulties to get something good for the money they spend. So they have to pull back the plug. Hence Anduril and many other companies that will soon emerge. France is doing the same at a lesser scale, in space and in aeronautics. We must prepare with agility for war.

France knows exactly what it wants the only problem is Germany wants it too and you can’t both have it, neither have any money to develop it.

Rafale was out of date twenty years ago the F5 is even worse. Atleast we have F35 to supplement our Typhoons France can’t wait two more deacdes for a stealthy aircraft no matter how many sub systems they put into Rafale

Hi Jim,
I may have a few disturbing elements:
Why does Dassault have 300 orders in back log and perhaps more coming?
Why did the F35 underperform in Atlantic Trident? Why is the F22 carrying passive sensor on pods, if Radar and stealth are sufficient? Why the US look for a cheaper to operate non stealth fighter? Why is Rafale able to detect a F35 at 150km? (FYI French pilots did not use radar to get a lock…) Why do we develop a multistatic radar for F5 (if not to make an AWACS of all Rafale)? Why is the cost per flight hour of the Typhoon 50k€ and Rafale 22k€? And why does Rafale beat competition in analysis of performance? I don’t know, may be the bribery we are able to pay to each single buyers (meaning more than others which is surprising). The Dutch, Korean or Singapore evaluation are available. For the Swiss, Armasuisse conveniently deleted it. The other one bought the Rafale.
Respectfully yours,
Math

Why is the F-35 wanted by every country that can afford to buy it?

Fair question. I believe that F35 can replace AWACS. F35 does try to implement sensor fusion, within a patrol, which is a great feature. I guess it’s stealth was worth something vs Russian Radars. The last great feature is mission preparation and algorithm assistance to the pilote. This are very appealing features.

Beg to disagree. F35 can’t replace AWACS. The largest F35 customer by far (USA) is buying E7 AWACS. F35 can not & never will be able to compete with the radar on an E7. F35 would need multiple F35 networked to come anywhere near comparable & they would still need the AWCS to make any sense of it. When I hear of Chinese jets buzzing an E7, I wonder if they have any thought to what would happen if the E7 focused everything it had on the jet at the range they are prepared to go. Even if the jet survived, I would not want to be the pilot.

The J20 seem to be designed and armed for this task: taking down AWACS or fuel carriers. The rise of 400 km missiles plus super cruise plus high altitude of J20 make this threat credible, since anyway the detection range of an awacs cannot exceed 350 km due to max flight altitude and earth curvature. It may be extended to 700km if awacs fly at 20km and J20 also does. These long range missiles that were supposed to be destroyed by laser. Laser advancement in US show it is not mature enough to provide the right protection against this threat. I know claims exist in UK that you have the technology to do so. Wait and see. The F35 with high data flow between patrolling jets is designed to get rid of AWACS, providing enough situation awareness to the pilote so that he simply don’t need one.
I don’t know about radiation effects on very long range, but can we assume that Chinese engineers may have had a thought or two about it? China is home to Huawei after all, world leader in telco antenna. They shall certainly have enough skilled professionals to think about this mean and the ways to protect against this.

Rafale has so many backlog orders because France will happily sell weapons to anyone including countries with terrible human rights records and a habit of leaking secrets. Even with all this Typhoon sales still exceed Rafal and F35 has an order of magnitude more sales. The only countries buying Rafale are because they can’t get F35.

I’m afraid your Rafal detection range on F35 is nonsense as is the rest of your F35 comments, the US is not looking for cheaper fighters it already has one in F35 and it’s a generation ahead of Rafale ,

Sure… but who besides the makers of the Typhoon look for it? Saoudi Arabia and Oman… Democracy?
F35… What is the UK share of the order of magnitude?
Detection range… Proven in Atlantic Trident, with a 17-0. Hence pods…on the F35 and F22… Start of US thinking about passive sensor in the following month in news’papers. But anyway, I cannot convince you if you are not interested to look at signals. They don’t make headline most of the time. They come to us, little by little in articles and trends. I am nobody to judge opposite opinions or belief. Especially since I am not from UK.
Buyers do though. Chinese do too by the way. Since Rafale is in India, J20 are no longer flying on the Indian side of Himalaya. It is surely a coincidence for you. Not for Indian military who communicates on it. But nahhh. Rafale is a crappy outdated plane, that Typhoon eat for breakfast. 😄 Sold only to dictatures, by bribery and corruption.
This Reminds me of the 100-0 of the M2K vs US Air Force F16 and F15 in 1990, in the warmup of Irak invasion. A pure invention. When made public le Bourget by Dassault un 1991, US diplomates in Paris went crazy. But forget it, just an invention of my part.

I never said Rafael is crappy, it’s just very dated as is Typhoon, F18 and F15.

There is a reason why F35 has won every single competition it was entered into.

Also it doesn’t matter who buys Typhoon partner or not just how many were made. Rafale was a terrible export aircraft for years while Typhoon dominated but BAE also makes a substantial amount of F35.

Simple fact is that without a 5th Gen aircraft France would struggle on a modern battlefield. It’s lacks SEAD capability to conduct operations and 4th Gen aircraft need SEAD operations to survive modern combat.

That’s NATO’s and RUSI assessment not mine.

If LO and RCS reduction are not important then why is France incorporating them on FCAS?

France could have been an equal partner with us in FCAS, instead it choose to punish the UK over Brexit and ended up shooting itself in the foot.

The price will now be the likely end of French domestic fighter production over the longer term.

I feel sad we did not go with UK and you mentioned many fair points on stealth. For the Rafale, the passive stealth keep improving by materials selection. The clean configuration is discret. The loaded configuration not so much. This is why measures are taken to address this: drone to carry longer range missile, a bit more thrust coupled with conformal fuel tank and more discrete materials.
Does not replace the joy to work with UK partners though. But at least we will remain relevant as you ally.

What have you got to back up the claim Rafale can detect the all aspect stealth F35 from 150k away? Also, do you know the results from exercise Atlantic Trident when results are classified. Also, none of us know what rules of engagement are used, what systems they are allowed to use, not use. Did the F35s have radar reflectors still fitted. The scenarios used, BVR, DACT? 1v1, 4v4? Over 400 F35s will be in service across Europe by 2030.

I guess the level of classification depends on who has received a bad grade. Because people where chatting about in France. Scenario BVR. No detection by radar of F35, lock on achieved through Spectra. But to be honest, it is irrelevant if we agree on it or not. What is relevant is what USA decided to do after this excercise : pod OSF on F22 and on F35, litterature in US flourishing on passive sensors and what was the sales path of Rafale (increased a lot).
I am sure F35 team will adapt to these elements. And if not, we will cooperate and sell them technologies they don’t have. We are allies. It is better to work together and face common enemies, even though we may take a different path to achieve things. It foster competition 😄
We know what we have to do to surpass F35. I think the countrary is true too… That’s why there is the fun.

SPECTRA is an EW suite on Rafale, it’s can’t a have a lock on to anything. It’s like me saying Praetorian on Typhoon locked on to an F35. SPECTRA like Prateorian can provide GPS coordinate for a stationary ground defence radar by using the differential method but it’s impossible to do on a moving radar and completely implausible on a low probability of intercept AESA radar like AN/APG 81.

I’m afraid your sources are just wrong on all accounts. As for passive sensors the F35 has had them since day one and they are far superior to Rafale.

F22 had these sensors removed from initial design for cost reasons. They are rectifying that now in upgrades but that has been planned for years

Sorry to burst any bubbles but none of this is because of Rafale or any performance by French aircraft in any exercise.

These reports are about as factual as the Indian aircraft that always seems it shoot down every aircraft it ever trains against according to its pilots that are flying Mig 21’s.

Hello
Spectra is relying on sensor that are not as powerful as the F35, though evolution are to address this point. But on the fact that Spectra is able to provide a shooting solution with the fusion of passive sensor, I maintain what I said. This is the whole point of it. Spectra represents 1/3 of the développement cost of Rafale, for a good reason. I don’t know what can be achieved through Praetorian, but if it does what you tell me, then it is different than Spectra. That’s the whole point of it. This is why F35 was « shot down ».
The development of Rafale is far from finished, since France alone is putting 10 billion Euros till 2030 in the plateforme and some other members of the club rafale plan to invest as well, to surpasse F35 in 2030 with the F5 standard. And US had until recently, difficulties to swallow the pill.
Just a reminder. Development of F4 standard was 1 Billion Euro. The goal is to be able to dominate the skies if something big happens in the next 10 years. We will be ready to the rendez-vous.

The question I asked in the beginning was mostly rhetorical but it seems sadly, our French friends cannot come to grips with the idea that the F-35 vastly outclasses every other aircraft that it goes up against, including the Rafale. Despite all it’s developmental issues, delays, cost, mission capable rates…..etc. The demand for the F-35 far outstrips the supply. LM can’t make them fast enough. But according to our French friends it’s a complete disaster which begs the question, if the f-35 is a turkey, what does it say about the rafale if it cannot beat it in a competition?

Another very obvious thing that rafale supporters seem to miss is why almost every military is trying to acquire stealth aircraft. China, Rus, Turkey, South Korea….all except the French. Stubborn refusal to accept that technology has moved on from the rafale type aircraft and sadly it’s the French pilots that will pay the high price in combat if it ever goes up against a peer adversary. Just to be clear, the rafale is a fine aircraft but just not at the level of the newer “5th gen” aircraft.

Note also that war games rules and results are mostly classified and the rules of engagements and finer details are hardly ever disclosed. Having a pilot say they killed a f-35 or a f-22 is not unheard of but please keep in mind that we don’t know how the exercise was designed and what they were trying to test or train against. As an example, there was an article that I was reading just a couple weeks ago where a raf pilot flying a typhoon said he got a kill against a f-35 in a “within visual range” exercise. The purpose of that exercise I assume was to eliminate certain advantages of the f-35 and see how it performs in such scenarios. That same pilot admitted that if it was a real fight and the f-35 was allowed to use all it’s tool, he wouldn’t have stood a chance as the f-35 would have detected and killed him long before he got close in. I suspect the result would have been the similar for the rafale.

Hi Netking,
I don’t deny F35 has some good features, but let’s not move back to the fantasy mode that was the Lockeed discours of 2010’s. A decade long delay on F35 promises have happened since then, and TR4 still exists only on design planning, 20 years after introduction of the plane. Theses promises were a good selling point, I don’t deny it, but until now they have not materialized…
By the way, where will F35 carry Aim 260? It seems to be a bit long for internal carry, isn’t it? And at which speed and height will they be launched?
What do you think about German passive radar detecting F35? (For a non French example)?
My goal is not to say F35 will be crappy. I just say what is often portrayed has important in it is one feature, stealth, that reveal less and less important as time goes by and that anyway it cannot maintain. For the rest, let’s wait for TR4.
For the last selling point, US guarantee, let’s see what the next US administration will say to Europe.
In France, we remember 3 things. US came to the rescue of Europe twice, in 1917 (after Verdun) and in 1942 (after being attacked by Japan). You can only rely so much on alliances of defense. The political timing and interests of a partner, as mighty as he may be, is not always in line with necessity.
What we do also know is UK was there in 1914 and 1939. A piece of paper is not as important as the political will that accompany it. Given latest reports, there could be a Dunkirk of epic proportion if anything goes sour. So let’s not rely on foolish expectations.
Thanks!

F35 are hardley suplimenting the typhoon now are they

Yes they are, F35 does SEAD, Typhoon heavy in the air to air role

If they have different roles then one does supplement another does it.
A eurofighter might suplimemt an F16 or vasa versa.

They perform over lapping roles but F35 is far superior. There are many missions F35 can do that Typhoon can’t but none the other way round . Typhoon just makes up the largest part of the force so I stand by my statement on those grounds. F35 is supplementing the Typhoons.

lol RAF F35 cannot do SEAD they have no weapon to do so, so far all it can fire are GBU bombs and ASRAAM on wing since it needs to be rail launched and cannot be shot from weapons bays. Not only can RAF not do SEAD, but they have no medium or long AA, no antiship, no cruise missile capability etc….
FYI Spectra is nothing like Praetorian since Spectra is a complete EW suite capable of jamming and active cancelation. Prateorian is just an early warning suite of incoming threats which will suggest evasive maneuvres and dispense chaff or flare according to threat type.

F35 can not do much of anything at the moment. Yes, it has radar type stealth but until block 4 lands, weapon wise, it’s a real dud. Potential, certainly, but that doesn’t help the here & now.

Block 4 …christ ,how long have we heard that name and the never ending extentions to that deliverable..My opinion is we will still be waiting for that golden egg in 5 years time.

I disagree, the beast would evolved as most warplanes do during their operational life.

I doubt it very much…the whole. Issue around it’s costs wasdue to the project creep. You only have to look at acronym to see what it was expected to be.
The yanks put paid to that to meet their own ends..

It was a mess.
It has zero export potential – far too expensive.
A monster budget consumer.
It had very limited tactical use, apart from recce.
A dead end.

« When a Tempest can operate and play quarter back while remaining undetected. »
This is the core issue. It is not easy to do both at the same time. Not easy at all. This is precisely why the Scaf is halted. Same thing for the NGAD. That’s why we just do the F5 and drones. They are cover up measure, to wait for some technology to mature.

Agile hard to detect communications is not new and seems to work pretty well for the F35. As is hard to detect and hard to jam radar.
The real reason that the European 6th gen is in trouble is political disagreement between the French and the Germans on capability and workshare not some miracle tech advancement .

Not really about misalignment on this one. Agreement was reached on this topic. The project is running. But may be their are info I don’t have.

Frankly the French and the Germans developing an aircraft . Definitely a match made in heaven.

Well… if you asked me… I would have loved to see France make a plane with UK. But… Who would we be trying to surplace in an Engineering race? Only US? I respect UK engineering. I Hope we find more ways of cooperation with your country, even if our armies get different weapons for the time being.

Having worked with the French on the ITER project, I can see why collaboration with them can be “challenging”
The early day of Typhoon were interesting. The French wanted technical lead, the lion share of the development and manufacturing and oh if it could be delayed until they could flog more Mirage 2000 would be peach.
They got a diplomatic F**k off in several different languages.
Having said that the Rafale is a very good aircraft.

We have jointly developed planes with France, we are the only country that’s ever done this. We stared FCAS with France then France left after Brexit to some how punish us.

The result is we picked up Japan and Italy while France got the left overs in Germany.

France and Germany were both the biggest stumbling blocks in the Eurofighter. Now we don’t have either we can move forward without all the hassle. All France and Germany ever cared about is work share and keeping Dassault going. Build a good aircraft was always a secondary concern to them.

I am sad that it happened this way nevertheless. You may have fair points. May be our politicians screwed some steps. I deeply regret it.

Loved both…

Jim Errr Sweden it has and continues to steer its own very unique path and it’s way smaller than France or the U.K.
I watched the Grippen last year at RIAT and it flew the pants of everything, short take off and landing, very open architecture system (easy to integrate weapons) and just parked up and 2 blokes sauntered up and got it ready for the next display.
Built by SAAB on a shoe string, they have looked at all the 6th gen projects and are going their own way.

Grippen is a very good aircraft although it’s heavily relies on UK content.

Numbers built are tiny though and I don’t think it’s possible to really say it’s a success.

It’s never been in combat, it’s secured almost no export orders.

Sure it’s amazing that a small country like Sweden even attempted something like this but it’s come a great cost to Sweden and its Airforce.

Look at Finland and Norway Airforce in comparison to Sweden, it’s night and day in terms of numbers and capability.

You read my mind.
Tempest is supposed to be at least an order of magnitude better than the F22 and F23 in stealth ( broader spectrum radar cross section reduction electromagnetic signature emissions avionics , engines , efficiency and cost per hour flown).
Time will tell if they achieve their aims but given the talent behind the project. I will be surprised if they don’t get damn close.

RCS is only one metric in plane detection. Optics and thermal, electromagnetic signature are also at play. And RCS has to be confronted with passive radar, multistatic radar or quantum radar. Prototypes of each of these are in development in China. The first two are in dev in France. Why focus only on X-Band RCS… Quantum Radar is very very unstable, but very promising.

I did say broad spectrum radar cross section reduction and thermal management of the airframe.
Quantum radar is good on paper but we are decades away from a version that can be put into the field.
And no disrespect. Given the number of scientific papers published by the Chinese and later debunked, I take anything the Chinese claim with a dumper truck of salt

👍

If it’s not built by Team America it can’t be 6th Gen. 😀

I think there is an element of this. I have yet to see any agreed definition of 6th gen

Only the marketing team at lokcheed Martin can decide what 6th Gen is 😀

System of systems – achieved in 2030 by 2 planes: Rafale and F35, Tempest in 2035
Virtual cockpits – not sure of the combat advantage
Adaptive engines – great feature indeed. I look forward to see it, because benefit in Range will be great. Rolls Royce and Prat and Whitney are leading this race.
What about hypersonic flight… This could be a tremendous advantage for any fighter.
What about long range affordable ammunition AA or AG? Defeat all Sam’s for cheap…
Secure communication… autonomous decision making, GNSS free navigation… Pilots free attritable plate-form? Fleet killing plateform? CAS plateform? (After all, the goal of mastering skies is to make a difference on the ground situation.
All these lead to delay the Scaf, which may not be a Jack of all trades plane like Rafale is. At least, not to defeat a serious opponent.
I believe UK as it all sorted out, with Tempest. But France and USA not unfortunately.

again its an arbitrary thing, if there is a known technological leap over 5th gen that would be enough in my eyes. but for USAF they may deem 6th gen to be stuff like directed energy weapons (and the ability to power those) and very long range meaning larger size but also new engine tech (it looks like the engine on the NGAD will initially not be groundbreaking tech that they’ve been working on as it may not be ready, i forgot what engine it was).

with 5th gen for instance its obvious what the ‘leap’ was which was stealth and true sensor fusion/networking. some think NGAD could basically be the B-21 and think one aspect of it being ‘6th gen’ is long range… long range to be able to patrol in the pacific from places as far away as australia or hawaii as the USAFs current airfields are all at risk of saturation attacks by chinese missiles (3 batteries of patriot/thaad dont have enough missiles ready to stop 200 missiles for instance).

an aircraft like the B-21 taking off from australia to fly CAP over the SCS carrying very long range AA missiles like AIM-174 or AIM-260, being fed targeting data from drones, ships, satellites, AWACs and other fighters makes a lot more sense than flying CAP 500 miles from a local airfield requiring multiple at-risk tankers- and the modern sensors/missiles/stealth/defensive lasers means it will not have to worry about getting in a dogfight.

4th/5th gen aircraft will still be extremely important defending local areas like guam from a quick reaction standpoint due to things like speed.

I see what you are saying but there are a few Blur’s, Typhoon is often mentioned as a 4.5 gen aircraft whereas F22 is known as a pure 5th gen one, F117 seems to have slotted in between them both just like B2, F35 and B21. Tempest has been specifically designed to take the next gen leap and as we are yet to see any specifics, I’m going to hold my breath and cross my fingers on what actually gets built, just like Dreadnought. I do hope Tempest becomes the leading edge aircraft that the hype is suggesting though.

I think the only hype is coming from people’s high expectations of what they thinkTempest will turn out to be. I think it will be more Typhoon under the skin in its early years to help keep costs at realistic levels. And will be developed over many years with capability enhancements. I could be completely wrong mind you. But none of us know how it will turn out. The MOD/RAF are being very tight lipped about the requirements set out for Tempest.

If the US are even close to a flying fighter borne directed energy weapon I will be very surprised.
And they are no close to adaptive cycle engines than we are eg at the prototype stage.

What is the definition of sixth gen?
Just better than fifth gen?
“gen” is pure marketting.

It’s a rather difficult thing to answer and yet more difficult to define/dismiss. You might have to wait and see before anything concrete is defined. I’m confident that Tempest will be a step change over F22 though.

Any nonsense relating to “gen” is easy to dismiss.

yes 5th gen was originally Supercruise, Supermaneuvre, Stealth and Sensor Fusion.
In fact the only real 5th gen is the F22 Raptor
By the way the F35 cannot supercruise at all. F35B and F35C are barely supersonic.According to DOT&E reports, they are limited to mach 1.2 with afterburner for less than a minute (approx 40 to 50 seconds) otherwise they risk damage to the wing edges and sensors. Aparently the F35A does not have those limitations imposed.

Stealth, sensor fusion, survivability, and situational awareness are what defines 5th gen capability today. The rest is good for airshows. F35 does not have supersonic limitations. It’s the only fast jet in service that can achieve its top speed of M1.6 (true speed is classified) with full internal fuel and weapons. All fast jets only sustain supersonic speeds for very short durations due to the huge amount of fuel used. Most fast jets that carry an external targeting pod are limited to subsonic. External fuel tanks on the F16 limit it to 5.5g. These are factors that do not limit the F35. F35 can achieve M1.2 on dry power. But again, it will use a considerable amount of fuel to do that.

It would be interesting to know how close to fifth gen Typhoon will be when it has the new UK radar.
Stealth was part of the Typhoon design, just not compromising other aspects.
Can a plane become fifth gen later?

I’d say its already pretty close.Just lacking the all aspect stealth. Which is a pretty important aspect. Radar2 will help massively. But it’s lack of stealth will hold it back from being a true first night of war capability against a capable air defence system. But we do have that capability with F35B.

It will be a 4.75 Gen aircraft with the new radar according to Lockheed.

In my opinion Typhoon ticks all the box for 5th Gen accept stealth. It has been built with efforts to minimise RCS especially front on but lacks it in other areas and of course lacks the internal weapons bays.
Even F22 pilots agree that it is not wise to get into knife fighting range with a Typhoon and the Pirate system is very efficient at picking up the F22 at extreme visual range.

👍

you are so full of it. no F35 can supercruise. P&W don’t even claim that only uninformed internet keyboard warriors.
As for mach 1.2 limitations for less than a minute on F35B and F35C (not F35A), this is well documented by official reports published yearly by the GAO and DOT&E , you would know if you bothered to read and inform yourself rather than bloviate falsehoods

Restrictions that were lifted some time ago. Same with the Lightning restriction. All F35 varients can achieve M1.6 with full internal fuel and weapons. Something very few other jets can achieve. I said it can achieve M1.2 in dry power, but for short durations. A clean Tornado F3 could go supersonic at low level in max dry. M1.6 might not sound that impressive. But the F35 it can do it with full internal weapons and lug around 18:000lbs of fuel.

F22 doesn’t do it to any meaningful degree either. It uses to much fuel. Supersonic speeds are always in relatively short bursts due to the high fuel consumption rates, even in dry power.

“There is no difference in scope and ambition between Tempest and the US projects.”

We really can’t say that at this point. Time will tell but if history is any judge the US will try to gold plate whatever comes out of the ngad program.

Exactly, nothing is public yet.
There is no visible difference to the public between the programmes and so Daniel Morgan telling everyone that NGAD is a generation more advanced is plain silly.

It’s the American in him.
Everything US is better and the UK is crap.
This lofty arrogance appears time and time again, read his comment history.

I sometimes agree with some of what he says on subjects, but, boy, get the tissues out or give the superiority game a rest.

I have asked him before why he’s even here, seeming as we are all useless bumpkins against the glorious might of the good old US of A.

Reminder to all – UK already has F35. It already has a benchmark. Is Tempest 5.5 or 6?, who cares. It only needs to be better than F35 (preferably F22). If it is, it has succeeded. F22 is wildly regarded as the best out there, but not even US could afford more than a handful. Bleeding edge tends to bleed money.

No it was a tech demonstrator, they have selected a bidder for NGAD so they can’t have a prototype.

NGAD doesn’t exist and no longer has a budget. They are going back to the drawing board.

But have they ordered they playing mind games with the Chinese?

OK, cool. I just thought they were a separate system. It’ll be interesting to see just what the UK come up with.

Hi, Teranis was at the time, the most technically advanced project on the Planet, if my memory serves me well. Yet here we are and nothing really to show for it. We do spend Tax payers money rather easily it seems. (are you on here much ?, I’m rather new here but I keep seeing you post, I also see a few others but you seem to have a more balanced approach ?)

Ah, you’re a new a poster? Hi Marty.
Yes, I’m here every day, for my sins.

If you click on a username you can then read a posters comment history.
You. 22 posts. Me, 20 thousand plus! 😆

You’re right, I try to.

Good to “meet” you and welcome.👍

Blimey, I have a bit of catching up to do then. 😃

Sorry but Northrop Grumman had been flying similar highly advanced drones since the 90s. Sadly for them the US showed a lack of interest too and cut back on their expectations a decade back which seriously pissed the company off.

Its all PR.