Britain is deploying its Sky Sabre air defence missile system to Poland according to Defence Secretary Ben Wallace.
“We are going to deploy the Sky Sabre medium-range, anti-air missile system to Poland with about 100 personnel to make sure that we stand alongside Poland, protecting her airspace from any further aggression by Russia,” Wallace said.
What is Sky Sabre?
Last year, 16 Regiment Royal Artillery has now accepted into service the first tranche of Sky Sabre air defence systems. Sky Sabre has replaced Rapier.
According to the Ministry of Defence, “unprecedented in speed, accuracy, performance and target acquisition, Sky Sabre will be able to hit a tennis ball-sized object travelling at the speed of sound”.
Sky Sabre features:
- A Giraffe Agile Multi-Beam 3D medium-range surveillance radar that rotates 360 degrees on an extending mast and can scan out to 120km for threats.
- A computer system linking up the radar and missiles sending them to their targets. It also provides ‘Link 16’, a tactical datalink allowing Sky Sabre to share its information with Royal Navy vessels, Royal Air Force systems and allies.
- At 99kg each, the Common Anti-Air Modular Missiles (CAMM) are double the weight of Rapier and have three times the range. They can reach speeds of 2,300mph eliminating fighter aircraft, drones and even laser-guided smart bombs.
- Eight missiles are mounted on the launcher, which fire in a multi-directional manner that significantly reduces its signature making it less of a target for adversaries.
- The launcher also re-arms in less than half the time of Rapier.
Defence Procurement Minister Jeremy Quin was quoted as saying:
“Sky Sabre’s spearheading technology has significantly upgraded the protection of our forces from threats from the air. This cutting-edge of defence system is a clear demonstration of our warfighting capabilities to those who wish to do us harm.”
Commanding Officer of 16 Regiment Royal Artillery, Lieutenant Colonel Chris Lane, said:
“We will be able to compete with our peers and take on some of the toughest adversaries. It gives us a capability we have not had before; this new missile system with its new launcher and world-class radar will absolutely put us at the forefront of ground-based air defence.”
One system? Good signal to Putin and his clique but I hope this is just an instalment of more to come.
Not sure we have that many to deploy, considering they only recently came into service. Better than nothing I guess.
I’d hope that a system is sited in the Falklands areas
From what I understand there are three batteries in total with one at the Falklands at all time, so a pretty large proportion.
Can’t verify that off the top of my head at all but there are definitely some missiles there, along with a flight of Typhoons which would already outperform the entire Argentine air force.
Yes one battery is already in the Falklands, Was posted on Twitter a couple months ago
Yes, it has been announced a number of times that #1 was going to the Falkland.
I think there is some of the Iron Dome software working down South too from what I recall.
Yes. Sky Sabre have Rafael Command and Control system.
I’d assume a battery deploys. How many systems in a battery is still a grey area, like how many we bought!
I suppose 4 truck launchers per battery?
It is a reasonable guess.
But potentially the launchers can be pretty far distributed from the command vehicle or the Giraffe system?
So it could cover a pretty big area with overlapping fields of fire?
The three vehicles in the sysytem can be up to 15 miles apart
Hi SB,
I would have thought the fields of fire would have been determined by the position of the radar, at least in part, especially against low flying targets. I can see that having missiles approaching from from different bearings would make evasion more difficult.
Spreading the battery elements around makes it more difficult to identify the battery and take out in one hit, until the radar lights up and says hello to any ELINT flying within range…
Cheers CR
You would only fire one missile at a target.
All the radar is telling the missile is where to go XYZ before it uses its own little radar etc to home in on the target.
So no mathematical problem having the launchers in an array.
Hi SB, My point about the radar was referring to terrain masking in particular, sorry should have been clearer. Also, the radar is the single point of failure especially for the UK as we only have 3x batteries of this very good system… No idea if we have a passive targeting capability, technicially it should be possible and probably cheaper than radar to deploy. Also, pretty scary for any aircraft being targeted as the first they know they are in trouble is when they detect the missile coming at them. The reason I raise the radar and passive targeting is… Read more »
Radar is not ‘the single point of failure’ with Land Ceptor…
One of the key things about the system is that it is sensor agnostic, as long as a radar is netted into the system it can use it to get a track to fire a missile. The Giraffe AMB radars are just part of the picture, in the Falklands the RRH sites and ‘other’ radars can be used alongside it…Land Ceptor can also use other sensors…including remote, unmanned radars that are bring retained from Rapier batteries…
So 1 battery per brigade area. Need more, and more SHORAD. I wonder how much more could the RA have with the .7 billion spent on BMD radar.
Maybe nothing if other army programs norms were followed!
At least we have this and I suspect it works very well.
Getting more of something is much more cost effective than starting from scratch.
It is the right sort of solution for throwing defensive umbrellas over largish areas?
A step change from FSC that’s for sure. I was interested in Fs comment that it’s elements could be 15 miles apart.
I’m not sure where the 15 miles comes from? Maybe it is the microwave narrowband LoS links?
Realistically you want them a good way apart a)so a bigger umbrella is created; b) so they are down threat; c) so you can shoot and scoot with the other batteries being well out of the way.
If memory serves, it’s 4 launchers plus Giraffe, although possibly a command vehicle as well.
There was an article about it on here back on of last year I think.
Morning Daniele. Long time my friend. I hope you are well. I still have an image in my mind from the sixties of a Bloodhound missile -it was an impressive looking piece of kit but I should imagine crude by todays standards. We live in worrying times-let’s hope the people of Russia can find some way of removing the truly evil monster that is Vladimir Putin! Cheers from Durbs ps I just been reading up on Bloodhound Mk 2-range of 190km and max speed of Mach 2,7! Not too shabby for a weapon that was developed in the 50’s and… Read more »
There used to be one at Duxford IWM. Here’s a picture i took before they built the new UK hall:
https://i.postimg.cc/vT9dg2ds/blood.jpg
Hi geoff. Yes, not spoken in many weeks! Glad you are OK.
Hope you are all OK back”Home” Daniele. Beautiful day in Durban-just under two weeks to end of Summer 26 degrees and clear blue sky. Cheers for now
It was developed at the same period as Sea Slug. But had significantly better performance due to using semi-active radar homing compared to beam riding. But then Bloodhound was significantly bigger, probably too big for a ship.
Bloodhound 2 was one of the most impressive SAM’s around, technically it was a lot more advanced than the equivalent Russian and US missiles. All to do with the guidance…US didn’t get an equivalent until i-HAWK related improvements arrived in the 80’s.
Like Swingfire, which was far more advanced than TOW (and whose deployment was a far lot more survivable in a shooting war), the only thing it suffered from was lack of continuous investment…
Hi DM,
Fella I work with used to be a Rapier operator in the RA, apparently they used to have 4 launchers per battery when he was in the mob. Not sure if that helps, as the army seem to add and subtract as needs require. Perhaps 4 is the baseline number?
Hi D.
4? Interesting, I had it as 6 FSC per battery. Wonder whether he worked with Rapier FSC or the originaI Rapier.
I too suspect 4 per battery may be the number, so 16 in the reg and a couple spare.
HMG/MoD are experts at covering up cuts and not revealing how many to attempt to hide gaps. I’d understand not disclosing numbers of certain systems but not with all the publicity surrounding Sky Sabre.
With 1 battery always in the SA it’s pretty thread bare.
I will do a little more digging when I see him next ref which version he was on, he spent his entire career in AA regs started off on 40mm Bofors before going over to Rapier.
I notice the news feed is full of stories about it, written like we have just deployed a massive counter blow to Putin. I guess the PR job is achieved.
If the system is as effective against Russian planes as NLAWS/Javelin is against tanks then it will be plenty good enough.
It is a new state of the art system so I am pretty confident in its abilities.
No doubt, but one unit is not going to do much and will be quickly saturated. I thought they would have sent multiple missile trucks, but based on the vids they didn’t.
Not necessarily the given the rate at which Russia is burning though it’s stocks of munitions. Another month at this tempo and the Russians will be dropping oil barrels out of transports.
Not to mention it’s diminishing airforce, 10 aircraft lost yesterday alone.
I would add a huge grain of salt on that 10. Ukraine said it sank a Russian ship, which then turned up with no damage at all. So much fake reporting / propoganda going on by both sides.
To me the success of nlaws etc demonstrate that the UK needs to do a complete rethink about how it approaches warfare. Either active defence is needed on everything or move to highly agile vehicles is needed. Either case Ajax/boxer etc are looking obsolete.
That supposes that we would approach the tactical problem in the same way as the RUS are. We wouldn’t. If Light Role Infantry are mopping up your armour with Light Anti Tank Weapons then your infantry aren’t doing their job, full stop. It’s not all about protective systems on the vehicle itself, it’s about how your combined arms operate together. My fear is actually that, in order to gain strategic mobility, we lose tactical mobility by going to a predominantly wheeled force. The assumptions made in the planning were false. I suspect that the planners in SDSR ‘situated the estimate’… Read more »
Why would we lose maneuverability going wheeled? Isn’t the main issue with Boxer that we haven’t ordered any IFV variants yet?
There is a big problem that I get from my armoured friends – the turreted boxer struggles in mud because it’s too heavy, so they haven’t ordered it yet whilst they work out the issue. It’s great for a desert where it’s mobility is as good as WR, but in Europe in Autumn and Spring it’s not viable.
If I can find the pictures I took in Al Fawr (Iraq) I’ll post them. We had a lot of rain, in a short period of time. It turned the fairly hard sand into mud. USMC Strykers were fitted with cage armour around the sides that added about 4t to the overall weight. We were on our way to Basra from Al Fawr, in a convoy of Warriors and 432s. When a call for help was heard over the radio. We responded to find four Strykers beached in the mud. Where one got beached then the others tried pulling them… Read more »
Just to add to your points BobA, If the Russian tracked vehicles are struggling in the Ukrainian mud wheeled vehicles wouldn’t stand a chance. If anything the Ukrainian War is highlighting the need for a properly integrated all arms approach, with light mobile units, though wheeled armour to the heavy tracked stuff all having a role to play. The big lesson though is that you cannot have too many trucks… Also, if you don’t want to have piles and piles of stuff sitting on the shelves just in case, then you either need to completely overwhelm your enemy very quickly… Read more »
Not really that simple. Plenty of vehicles got ambushed in Iraq/afgan. In a flat planes of Germany, where ww3 was meant to be fought it would be, but when your dealing with built up areas and road networks, with civilians all around, there is plenty of room for surprise attacks
so, how many vehicles did we lose in ambushes in Iraq / Afghanistan? On my second tour of Afghanistan we lost one to an IED, zero to RPG, and only one small arms engagement on a vehicle. On my first the vehicles were regularly engaged, but because we forced the engagement. Why? Because we aggressively patrolled around the routes we were using and responded aggressively when the enemy did get through. the RUS are losing vehicles to infantry attack, again and again and again. It’s not the terrain, the terrain is the same for both sides. I’ve been on ops… Read more »
Totally agree. You can’t turn your back on an ambush you have to fight your way through it. This is something the Taliban learned the hard way. Where initially they set up classic roadside ambushes. But then got smashed as we fought through the ambush, whilst fixing them in place and then brining in air support. They soon learned to do more hit and run attacks in small groups was better for survival. I have seen a number of incidents where Ukrainian forces have ambushed Russian convoys. A lot of them do seem to get extremely flustered bunching up together… Read more »
Army should concentrate on drones, stand off precision weapons, and the Royal Artillery. Ukraine war is showing numerous footage of ground elements destroyed by accurate fire covered by drone footage.
People at home in u.k have als got to question why it is that the u.k cities(not even London) have a defensive system.other nations surround their major cities and other sites of national importance with a defensive means to protect against them other countries do for example, when the Americans bombed Libya they needed to get through over 50 anti air missile sites and numerous anti air gunnery sites civil defence in the u.k simply doesn’t exist
I don’t expect most western nations with no threat of invasion do.
I don’t know which bombing you are referring to but I’m guessing it was mid conflict. If you follow the news, you’ll see the Blitz ended recently and so the need to keep AA systems in place over London has diminished slightly.
Is that why there aren’t any barrage balloons up at the moment? 😉
Oddly those would have been useful in Bomb Ally in ’82.
Sometimes very old tech is the solution to the problem in front of you!
But you make a good point.
I wonder if a modern equivalent could be used? If the barrage balloon was given a radar repeater and IR heat source. Could it be used as a decoy to protect an area? I’m thinking it could provide some protection.
Not from MIRV’s from ICBM’s it hasn’t and with a mental state of Putin we should have some sort of ballistic missile defence in place as long as that madman is around.
Not sure what the situation is with the UK’s anti-ballistic missile defences but it isn’t great. Either way, those kinds of systems aren’t localised around cities anyway. If you only shoot down a nuke when its looming over London that’s still going to be pretty bad.
Not sure what the situation is? I’ll tell you, we have no defence against ICBMs. Only the US has any and even that is very limited.
Cool. How does this relate to local city defence though?
There isn’t any anti air defence in the uk other than Sky Sabre, which isn’t deployed, and the T45s. Was that your question?
Exactly, the best defence against them is having them yourself which is exactly why we have Trident.
Even if we went to 10% GDP spending on defence we could in no way at all have an ICBM defence system that would stop even a fraction of what Russia could throw at the UK.
There isn’t any defence against ballistic missiles in most Western countries.
Israel and US are probably the exception.
Lol madman?! Have you watched his address to the nation? Most folks have not.
That’s during wartime. I don’t think many countries have active ground-based air defence around their cities during peacetime. We have QRA squadrons of Typhoons to take care of any unexpected threats during peacetime.
What we do need, however, is more Sky Sabre units so that if SHTF and we had to defend our cities we’d be able to.
Well at least we have a system now.
Before that we had Rapier (useless) and then line of sight systems that are no good for area defence.
Rapier was pretty good, being IR system it even tracked F-117.
Rapier didn’t really have an area defence capability.
It was a point defence system.
The F-117 would have been flying pretty low to be in Rapier range?
For a second before the 2,000 pounder obliterated the entire site. What is a cool story.
Rappier was not IR, it was radio command guidance. But it was a low level system, probably no more than 5km ceiling. So any fighter bomber could be lobbing bombs and missiles at it from higher altitude.
Rapier Field Standard C (FSC) had an IR tracker as well as the surveilllance radar. The missile was commanded by an operator using a joystick which controlled the command radar beam.
That incident was a B2 not an F117,further research suggests that the Operator was merely Tracking it with a Joystick rather than the System doing it automatically.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rapier-Jernas.jpg
Correct. At Farnborough. And at low level.
When the B2 goes to 50,000 FT or whatever the Rapier operator is obsolete.
World beating complacency. Our leaders don’t mind & we don’t matter.
I agree and that’s what makes me so mad about our modern politicians.
I’d say on performance thus far, Putin gets that title surely?
Kind of with you on this Andy, To have enough sets so that sites such as Naval, air, army bases, key infrastructure could be defended if and when required around the UK. Not sure with Rapier if it was ever dispersed beyond airbases except for the tracked Rapier?
I would bet they don’t think about those issues until the shtf…
People are not educated about military matters, journalists at best are ignorant, at worse are against anything military.
Lol…it’s Friday, can’t resist…how many does that leave in the UK?
OMG — we are defenceless! Quick, send an OPV. (It’ll wind Jonathan up.)
One I think Quentin, Others on here have suggested that 16 Reg RA have 3 batteries and that one is already deployed to the Falklands. I quick search online does not give a definitive answer, also Google threw up an uncreditted quote that up to 24 systems would be ordered!? The key element to the system is the radar and the UK ordered 5 Girrafe radars in 2008 as part of the Land Environment Air Picture Provision (LEAPP) project. ‘Additonal’ radars were ordered in 2015 which I assume was part of the Sky Sabre programme, and the existing units up… Read more »
Thanks for your reply CR. Still no further news on CAMM-ER coming to the RA? Do you know if the two CAMMs could operate side by side or from the same launcher?
You’re welcome, mate. I believe the CAMM-ER can be launched from the same launcher as the basic CAMM possibly with some minor(ish) mods e.g. it may need lengthening unless it is a standard VLS such as MK41 / ExLS of Sylver. I discussed this sometime ago with one of the guys, but it was awhile ago now… Not sure if they can operate from the same launcher as the same time, but I would hope that the two weapons are sufficiently compatible to be controlled from the same radar / command and control unit. As I understand it this would,… Read more »
Hi CR, the CAMM-ER canister is a whole metre longer and half as wide again. They would have to find a way of mixing the different sized cannisters on the launcher. Possibly further back on the frame so it hangs over the edge and maybe only on one side. As there is a fixed amount of space up front where it folds flat behind the cab. The attached image shows there is space at the back of the launcher for the extended CAMM-ER cannisters. A number of MBDA roadshows have shown the truck with a CAMM-ER standing next to it.… Read more »
Thanks Daveyb,
That is really helpful and interesting.
I knew it was a good system but was not aware of those kinds of details – clearly a very flexible and effective system.
The more I learn about MBDA the more impressed I am of them as a supplier. I should say that the MoD’s Complex Weapons Team probably deserve some credit as well as all reports suggest a very effective relationship between that MoD team and MBDA.
Cheers CR
Hi mate, I think they have actually thought the system through (for a change!). For example where it can use 3rd party sensors for search and track, thereby leaving their organic Giraffe radar set to passive, so it can’t be targeted. Also that if the command unit is knocked out, the individual trucks can still provide some air defence capability by using their own EO turret. Again the system can be expanded by networking with other Sky Sabre units. The other good thing about the system, is that it uses Rafael’s advanced defense system modular, integrated C4I air and missile… Read more »
Hi Daveyb,
You are hive of interesting information this afternoon, mate!
I was vaguely aware that the system could be networked with RN assets, clearly with the littoral in mind.
I have said before that I would like to see a Land Viper system developed as it would spread the cost of the system, provide land forces with a capable medium / long range and provide an opportunity to further develop the SAMPSON radar with a view to update the T45 systems and lead into the next generation AD systems for the T83.
Thanks
CR
I wonder if they will be close to the border with Ukraine practicing detect the Russia and pass it on.
I suspect many other assets are already doing that.
Is it not possible to mount more than 8 on a truck seeing as they only wiegh 100kg each? I would of thought at least double that. In a high threat environment, all 8 could be gone very quickly. How long to rearm the cells?
are they fired in pairs at a target?
Generally not. It will depend on the speed, size and type of threat that is being intercepted. Technically, as it is an active radar guided missile, you only need one missile per target. But if facing something like Iskander, which has recently shown it uses decoys to penetrate air defences, it may need more than one missile to hit the real threat.
Thanks.
I don’t think it has the capability to defend against an Iskander type threat. That is a high speed ballistic missile. Sky Sabre would be more like iron dome which defends against rockets such as fired from a Grad , slower and lower maximum ceiling. ( the combat system was based on Iron Dome’s, provided by Israel) Israel has lower, mid ( stunner missiles) and upper tier systems ( Arrow). Aster 30 cam deal with ballistic missiles of range our to about 600km. Camm would cope with aircraft, drones and cruise missiles. Poland are buying Camm to use on their… Read more »
I disagree Sea Sceptor/CAMM was originally designed to replace Sea Wolf in the point defence role. The vertical launched version could counter many anti-ship missile threats. These include subsonic and supersonic sea skimming, shallow diving and high angle diving missiles, not to mention the ones that try to jink and barrel roll as they approach. SEA Ceptor was designed to do all this but also have a far greater effective engagement range. The Sea Ceptor/CAMM uses a directional fragmentation warhead triggered by either a contact or proximity fuse. So long as the active radar can see the target it will… Read more »
A short range ballistic missile is one with a 600km range and that is what the “published” intercept capability of the Aster 30. ( eg scud type missiles) The ABM version being developed will supposedly have the ability to deal with ballistic missiles with 1500km range. All existing ABM defences such as THAAD and SM3 intercept in the terminal stage, ie falling into the engagement basket. They don’t hit missiles that “overfly” it as such. Hence European Ballistc missile defence ( provided by the US) will depend on 2 aegis ashore bases in Romania and Poland and 4 Eagis destroyers… Read more »
Agree, CAMM ceiling should be around 15km+,
I agree, the classification of a short range ballistic missile is anything between 120 to 620 miles. Aster 30 can intercept them. However, it depends on where the missile is during its flight phase. For example the OTR-23 Oka short range ballistic missile (SRBM) is said to have a range between 300 and 500 miles. It can achieve a flight apogee greater than 50km. This is well above the Aster 30’s maximum engagement ceiling. So can either intercept it during the boost phase or during the terminal phase. MBDA state that Aster 30 has a range greater than 120km (75… Read more »
Well that depends on how the sensors work and if they are as dumb as the decoy technology.
It wouldn’t take much to use a spectrometer/spectrophotometer to differentiate between the magnesium flare and the rocket output?
Equally it may blast out a lot of RF to **fool** the radar but what I saw in the photos had the electronic sophistication of the sort of thing I’ve built in an afternoon to test something in the ’90’s. It looks to me more like a radar blinding device that something that is actively spoofing. So wouldn’t fool a modern fully digital radar.
I agree – the Israeli Iron Dome system has 20 missiles per launcher – that seems more like it. Its just typical MOD – underarm everything!
Well, it is not their little bodies on the line, is it? I guess I am not allowed to include “pink” these days.
“Bodies of colour”…
“Bodies of all colours or none” (mustn’t oppress albinos)
Iron Dome is designed to engage barrages of a dozen-plus rockets, however, not incoming bombers, fighters or cruise missiles.
Iron Dome on the left
Why not? I would say bigger systems will be easier to hit.
I guess it could in theory. It has a max range of 43 miles so it could intercept, but I don’t know how good it is at intercepting high altitude aircraft – that’s not really my area of knowledge so couldn’t say.
The iron dome has to shoot down lots of simple fabricated rockets and it can do so from a static trailer, dug in behind a berm, with no threats from complex Anti radiation missiles, precision munitions .
You are comparing different requirements.
Sky sabre would shoot and scoot. Even cold launches might get detected .
Hence why you have 4 launchers at distributed locations so that when one shoots and scoots the other three are still active.
I’d like to see a 20 x CAMM launcher developed like this too!
Fitted for but not with, Eh!
Aster 30 weighs 450kg a piece, SAMP/T has eight, so going by weight 32 CAMM is roughly the same. As hilarious as that would be, not sure it would be possible to change the launcher to add another even eight CAMM though.
Missed opportunity tbh. Rapier went from four to eight, sixteen really should have been the baseline here.
The battery will carry reloads, there is a standard loading hook on the launcher. The blurb says it can be reloaded in half the time as Rapier.
So 8 seems sufficient for a system designed for mobility and survivability
Some Patriot launchers only carry 4 missiles.
US Army have set up a Patriot battery at airfield just over the border in Poland.
I think the individual canisters maybe carrying 4 so 16 all up. Pretty punchy!
My apologies, I was “seeing quadruple”, you’re right, 4 Patriot per launcher.
The patriot PAC 3- designed to shoot down ballistic missiles – has 4 missiles in each canister… so 16 per truck launcher. they are smaller but highly agile missiles, they’d be the last line of defense against ballistic missiles. range is only around 16 miles it looks like so its there to defend something like an airfield or command center. The PAC 2 are huge missiles, with 4 per truck launcher, they are anti aircraft and anti cruise missile (and can engage ballistic missiles as well, as seen in the iraq wars)- around 100 mile range. What im curious about… Read more »
You can definitely get an extra 4 missiles per truck if money was available..
Or just reload from the flatbed of a supply truck which come as part of the battery…..
In order for shoot and scoot to work the launcher has to be kept light.
Otherwise it would get bogged down?
Might that not be a valid reason?
It’s footprint will fit in with standard truck sizes and pallet lift systems, hence the hook that can be seen on the launcher apparatus when raised.
In theory there will be a max load for the truck , feasibly they could pack more missiles, but as with everything there is a consequence, such as additional vehicles required, bulkier apparatus etc.
I suspect it is weighted for air mobility by A400m, potentially RN landing vessels.
I’d rather 12 ready missiles than 8
I’d rather eleventy billion!
I wonder if these 2×6 launcher platforms are used in conjunction with the bigger 2×4 launcher trucks? They would have a whole different type reloader too. Why they just didn’t go with 2×6, isn’t CAMM pretty light? It would be good to get a schematic of the whole Sky Sabre CAMM system.
Could (would) we use them to shoot down incoming Russian cruise missile attacks, if they were targeting Ukranian training bases close to the Polish border? Despite officially saying there are no NATO troops in Ukraine, I find it difficult to believe there aren’t at least a few there, training up the Ukrainians on the various missile systems & communication gear, that are being supplied.
That’s very interesting, because it could be construed as a form of a no fly zone and whilst on paper it could be argued that it was there to protect civilians what happens if Moscow launched an anti radiation missile and it popped across the border .
I agree – it could also point to the potential look of NATO defending their own assets inside Ukrainian territory.
US has already deployed multiple Patriot batteries,
1 Sky Sabre battery is more a gesture of goodwill…..
And probably supports the UK contribution to the potential multi billion $ Polish LBAD project announced last year. https://defense.info/defense-decisions/2021/11/polands-future-air-defence-system-an-update/
MBDA might have won in Poland but lost in Finland competition (bigger missile not CAMM). Final competition is between 2 Israel SAM systems Barak ER Vs David Sling Stunner missile.
Polish CAMM/Narew working alongside Patriot. UK MOD surely must be taking some notes… I wonder if CAMM-ER could be scaled up to compete with Patriot?
Indeed. Was thinking the same. At least provide a reasonable overlap.
Harsh. It only takes one missile, that wouldn’t be otherwise there, to shoot down a missile/bomb and save lives on the ground.
Yes but they have a different operational capability you don’t tend to use Patriot on minor targets, Skysabre is rather more flexible. The latest iron dome has just increased from two to three levels of defence with separate missiles of different ranges and capabilities in a layered format. Makes a lot of sense especially if it is covering major roads heading across the border to Lviv, the main likely target for both recon drones and any strike or indeed mis directed strike headed into Poland..
different systems, different advantages. My understanding is most of the US Patriot batteries are set of for the ABM role and so don’t have the 360degree radar coverage that sky sabre has ( they only ordered 6 sets of radar with 360% coverage)..
Yes Patriot would ideally be positioned in Germany not on the frontline.
Nothing to cover our bases of course. UK needs more of these (at each airbase for starters thus giving the RAF Reg a great job) and some LR SAM’s to protect out into the airspace. Or perhaps the RN should just plug there T45’s in around the coast to deal with incoming?????? Got to not only the right kit but plenty of it too. You only can go to the table when your strong if you expect to get anything positive out of it. Just where does all our budget actually go considering it’s one of the biggest in NATO?????????????… Read more »
I’d guess the current theory is to lean on QRA for the job.
Would be interesting to know if any of the USAF bases in the UK have SAM systems present.
No.
Can Typhoon w/Meteor shootdown incoming cruise missiles?
Yes. Assuming the missile is detected by radar its a slow predictable target.
I think the USN has 4 ABs tasked to Europe for ABM defence.
Yes, they’re based out of Spain
In the late Cold War rapier and bloodhound units provided air defence for a select number of us and RAF bases in England.
I’d have thought that RAF Akrotiri should have a set at least with all those unfriendly countries within cruise and balistic missile range.
When I was in Cyprus, 1964 – 1968, there was a Bloodhound battery on the hill overlooking RAF Episkopi.
Much of the budget probably pays for huge shareholder dividends & exec bonuses for major arms corporations, delivery of actual functional capability coming second?
Yawn more conspiracy into those pesky corrupt tories then? I think you are mistaken with Russian corruption not what goes on in the UK.
Yes of course comrade
A nuclear deterrent. A blue water Navy, and globally deployable Army and Air Force doesn’t come cheap.
Good breakdown of where the defence budget gets spent on
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/defence-departmental-resources-2020/mod-departmental-resources-2020
Pretty much 20-25% on personal. Lots of equipment and bases etc.
Good but I hope we don’t have to use it. The US are saying that they reckon that 7000+ Russian soldiers are dead. With a 3:1 ration of wounded and missing in action that means he has lost 28,000 soldiers thus far. That is 1000 casualties per day. How long can they withstand that loss rate? You can’t hide that many missing people no matter how many field crematoria you employ.
Apparently we’re now providing Starstreak to Ukraine.
Wish we could supply something to take out those damn frigates and landing ships.
I’m guessing they have at least a few Neptune’s hiding in Odessa waiting for them
Surface to Surface Brimstone. Fuck loads of surface to surface Brimstone. Would wreck Russian tanks, artillery, command posts and also make a mess of landing ships and frigates that get too close to shore. The relatively short range compared to other missiles means they can only really use it defensively and there’s less chance of the Ukrainian’s fucking up and hitting something they shouldn’t in the Black Sea.
I thought we have given them some Brimstone Sea Spear missiles- https://navyrecognition.com/index.php/naval-news/naval-news-archive/2022/february/11378-ukraine-to-receive-anti-ship-missiles-from-the-uk.html
Not yet, I don’t think the ships that they were to arm have even been built yet.
But they have their own AShMs. Hopefully they’ll get some ltruck based launchers to deliver a shock to the Russian gun line. Knocks on the head the lie that NGS is a thing of the past.
We’ve loads of almost out of date Harpoons we don’t seem to want any more.
Hi Jon, not sure if we have “loads” of Harpoons in the cupboard but I could well be very wrong just that’s it’s been ages since seeing a fully loaded out T23/45…maybe 1-2 in the CSG21. Interestingly though the RN ships seem to be keeping their launchers and presumably all the hardware/software to still use them if needed. Could be time get them all updated as an even cheaper as chips interim AShM option. The US is still selling the later Harpoons to Taiwan so they can’t be totally useless.
I read that was being considered. Is it now confirmed? Do you know is it just the shoulder launched version or one of the multiple tube launchers?
Not read anything that we have supplied any yet or even confirmed we will.
All I know is from the news, but Ben Wallace spoke about it in parliament on the 16th as a thing that is happening so I expect it’s now set in stone.
Ah! Thx. Found it! Reuters reported that Wallace told the BBC on March 16th that the decision had been taken to supply Starstreak.
That’s good news for the air strikes. The US are supplying 100 Switchblade drones which will enable defending troops the ability to strike artillery pieces from a distance. Cruise missile strikes remain a problem.
how much more air defence does Poland need,they alraedy have 2 patriot systems set up and working with more on the way.or has the US backtracked on the rest??
It’s about creating a layered air defence and giving some redundancy.
These systems only have about a 100km range, the US deployed them at Rzelow the airport which is the main staging area for weapons being flown into Ukraine but Poland has a far longer border with Russia/Belarus/Ukraine.
Going by how effective the system is in Saudi I think they need Sky Sabre to shoot down what the Patriots miss.
Hi folks hope all is well.
Well sounds good I suppose, it probably ups the ante and sends a message to the Russian military.
Just out of interest, and I take advice from any of you experts in this. Do we know if we are going to deploy in Falklands?
Cheers,
George
I think that was the first deployment of the system, at least the radar part but I may be wrong
Yes, Sky Sabre is already in the Falklands https://twitter.com/Comd7ADGp/status/1486612406101061642
Warship World suggests China will be seeking a military base in Argentina in exchange for their large loans.
Seriously sneaky if true. Why in the world would they want a base down there? Food, oil? Has the UK ever had some political rapprochement with Argentina post Falklands besides just playing rugby?
They do lots of fishing in waters down that way so having a naval base especially will come in handy, do what they do best rape the seas nearby sail into port and fly to China.
China needs to feed its population.
”The latest available country-specific data from 2019 shows that 69.7% of products exported from Argentina were bought by importers in: Brazil (20.4% of the global total), Australia (12.2%), China (9.7%), United States (4.4%), Vietnam (4.2%), Chile (4.1%), India (2.8%), Netherlands (2.5%), Indonesia (2.4%), Switzerland (also 2.4%), Algeria (2.3%) and Peru (2.2%”
https://www.worldstopexports.com/argentinas-top-10-exports/
Also see this link about food exports from Argentina to Vietnam.
http://argentinafoodexport.com/
We ought to have reconciled with Argentina a long time ago.
NATO is meeting in June to discuss future long term deployments in Eastern Europe and acquisition of more equipment. I am expecting one lesson they might take is setting up a central EU/NATO air combat command centre like NORAD due to the encountered issues with drones passing rapidly through each countries domestic air command centres so being ignored.
https://ac.nato.int/
Its a permanent team that is temporarily stood up to respond to individual local crisis. Essentially say theres a crisis in a country they set up a the computers to monitor the airspace around that country and laise with neighbours. Its not a standing theatre command centre.
Not so mate. As the website says: The Combined Air Operations Centres at Uedem, Germany and Torrejón, Spain are responsible to plan, direct, task, coordinate, supervise and support air operations of allocated assets in peace, crisis and conflict. Routinely they are tasked to execute NATO’s Air Policing mission closely cooperating with Control and Reporting Centres, National Air Policing Centres and dedicated Quick Reaction Alert air bases across their respective area of regional responsibility. Appropriately located to cover NATO’s entire European airspace, sensor posts are connected to feed into the Combined Air Operations Centres’ Recognized Air Pictures, allowing them to monitor… Read more »
Um, some of them have been in Poland for nearly a week already!
When I was growing up during the height of the cold war. If one drove past RAF or US Airbase in UK. you would probably see Air Defence Missiles on their launchers on the grounds of the base. UK had Bloodhound Missile battery’s not sure of the names of American missiles. The Russian Airforce sends aircraft all the time towards UK and NATO airspace to probe and get intel on reaction times etc. I would never say never as far as UK would be attacked. Russia has already attacked UK with Chemical weapons on more than one occasion. Salisbury being… Read more »
Who pays for this, and how long will the lead time be?
How about the National Lottery 👍👍
We really need a cheaper containerised version of this system that can be quickly deployed to protect key military bases and infrastructure when needed, both at home and abroad. Could we also, for example, just have the camm missiles sent to our airports and hooked up to the main radar or are commercial radars not good enough? I just think we have to start planning some resilience. All it would take is a few cruise missile laden Russian subs off our coast, and so many sites could be knocked out in one hit at present.
It has been quickly deployed. To Poland.
Who would fire it? An overtired air traffic controller who panics when an A320 radio packs up and yue pilot doesn’t answer? It would also require complex IFF systems to name one problem.
It wouldn’t be much use for the experts out there but there’s an interesting podcast on Youtube suggesting reasons for the dreadful performance of the Russians in Ukraine. For anyone interested search ‘Thugs bullying the Russian Army’
Thanks. I found it interesting. You always hear about Putin having a criminal mindset or that he’s more Mafia capo than President, but I never thought through any implications.
I know I thought the stuff that went on under the USSR was bad but it seems to have gotten even worse.
There’s a bloodhound in the IWM we can bang back into shape!
Haha
It’s probably to backfill those Polish Soviet era systems that will mysteriously drive over the Ukraine border.
Much the same as Slovenia will supply the S300 , if a system to backfill it can be provided.
Holland have offered a Patriot battery.
Hello there. I’m from Poland, and when it comes to buying weapons, we often had people who lobbied for certain systems (not quite needed) just to get rich off the deal. And when it was planned by the army, it took years and went out of budget and was useless. That’s why wanted to ask, what kind of systems, what combinations of forces we would need, to defend against the agression? What kind of weapons we would need to have, to stand a chance until NATO gets there? ( I’m not sure if this is correct, but I heard this… Read more »
Two weeks sounds right for reinforcement from N.America. Reinforcement from forces based in Europe would be much less. On air defence there is no one system that could do it all so need different systems like Stinger, Sky Sabre and Patriot to provide integrated defence.
The DT reporting this says Sky Sabre has a range of 75miles. This is an error surely.
But its close enough for Ukrainians to hop over the border for a quick training course 😉
I suspect the Sky Sabre will find its way to defending the training base near Lviv from further cruise missile attacks.
I wonder if any Ukranian troops are trained on Sky Sabre. It is my understanding the the Ukraine intended to purchase this system.
Would be more impressed if Sky Sabre was being deployed in Ukraine. But that would require a politician who was prepared to make the other side blink. Not having the technical knowledge can someone advise if all the Russian missiles use GPS for guidance and why don’t we block all signals into Ukraine?. I assume the Ukrainians know where they are so why not totally confuse any missile strikes. We can do that from Poland and Romania I assume.
The Russian GLONASS is their GPS equivalent giving a global coverage via Russian satellites and no doubt robust enough to support the Russian Military machine whilst withstanding the same type of jamming and spoofing from Nato that the Russians can allegedly do to GPS.
Who would operate it inside Ukraine exactly? That would mean putting boots on the ground from our side to set it up and operate the system.
James, either Ukrainians are taught in Poland or they are taught in the UK. No boots on the ground. But given latest reports from people who claim to know Putin indicate he has his finger on the nuclear launch button maybe it’s time we started looking at a first strike option. Because if we are prepared to watch Ukrainians die rather than go to at least a no fly zone I am sure everyone would prefer Russians to die than themselves. You can’t have it both ways.
By time the trainings done be nothing left of Ukraine or the positive signs of a peace deal will have moved forward.
If as you say he has his finger on the button then putting in a no fly zone is something that could result in that being pressed.
First strike will result in a retaliation in the same form, we cannot knock out anywhere near his entire launch capability in a first strike so yes doing that is a great idea as thats a world ending event.
The Nuclear first strike is an illusion, any form of first strategic weapons launch by they West or Russia is a death sentence for every nation, human and large land animal on the planet. There is a rule of thumb you can use around nuclear weapons, 100 warheads destroys 10% of human crop production across the planet for a decade, which will kill 10% of the population. So if we managed a first strike with 1000 warheads and somehow manage to also remove all the Russian ballistic missile subs, all we have done is kill Ourselves slower. The very simple… Read more »
Good Evening, It would be nice to read that despite all the comments here the British Government would put In place the correct policies immediately to counter this aggression from Putin. That means boosting our defences as mentioned many times already on this site! The Cold War exists unfortunately and long before the Ukraine war. It seems once again we (British) are to slow to react! We as already mentioned undermanned, undergunned and underfunded! Where are for example our Anti Missile, Aircraft defences? When Putins Rockets Fall? I hope somebody somewhere at the top reacts and changes this deplorable situation!… Read more »
Don’t know who has heard but we seem to be purchasing a $700m ballistic missile radar + command and control system from the US.
finally.
Is this to complement the one at RAF Fylindales?
Only the US State Department and Reuters have reported so far… I’m not sure what sort of radar it will even be. Most likely in complement though, yes.
But with nothing to shoot at said ballistic missiles, at least not yet…
Or probably ever, it will add to the early warning system which needs upgrading.
True, but if it is an AEGIS radar being purchased then it will be quite easy to integrate ballistic missile defence in later.
Is this Project Lewis back again? It was announced in 2017 or 2018, then delayed, and in the last defence equipment plan was pushed back to 2030.
ETA: Looks like it is. Found this report on Shephard.
If the defence budget is increased then this should be one of the first items we invest more into. I don’t think we have ordered very many so triple/quadruple the order please! In the meantime I would keep Rapier in active service. Judging on the performance of the Russian Air Force I’m sure it could still do some good.
Thanks David. Given the quality of Russian equipment demonstrated so far I would suggest jamming the Russian GPS syatem would be worth a try. Even better if we could return the missiles to sender.
Yes training someone to use it, im fairly sure learning to use Sky Sabre correctly is not like learning crash bandicoot on a games console.
Just a question: Why don’t they detach that flashing (please bomb me!) beacon on the top of the truck so its tethered 200 metres from the truck?
Thats purely for H&S reasons – in Wartime that would quickly end up in the Bin.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/latest-nmh-contender-breaks-cover-and-touts-evolved-and-renewed-black-hawk-bid/147964.article
Anyone seen this?
Or new ones built in Poland.
Just get a heli at an affordable price in the numbers needed.
There is so much competition for this business even the MOD can get a good deal surely……..?
Bit off topic but Putin has just given a ra-ra speech in a full Moscow sports stadium to celebrate the seizing of Crimea. Putin in casual Val Doonican style dress ….couldn’t help but notice the very high roll neck on the sweater. Vanity or illness?
The temperature there was below zero so, as he’s getting on a bit, maybe it was as simple as he wanted to keep warm.
Yeh, simplest explanation is the best I guess.
Sky Sabre can take a data feed from an orbiting AWACS. It’s not reliant on its own radar.
4 batteries 20 miles apart can cover a 100 mile front.
Just so. The beauty of the CAMM missile system is its ability to take targeting data from sources other that it’s own threat detection system. As you put it, a 100 mile coverage from 4 batteries, impressive.
What is the detection range of the big golf ball infra-red detection wotsit..based someone said on the Typhoon PIRATE system?
AA
Putin asking China for help, Biden & Ukraine pressing China to condemn Russia & come off the fence. Crucial time. IF China supports Russia & If then we impose sanctions on PRC the slide to WW3 will seem virtually inevetable. I can’t see PRC tamely eating up restrictions of their massive USA/European markets. I just hope all the western restraint avoiding direct conflict with Russian forces in Ukraine doesn’t prove wasted & we’ve let Ukraine suffer immensly when the application of a little force could have thrown Russian forces(freely murdering Ukrainians & devestating cities) back in disarray. We wait to… Read more »
The dragon in the room is China.
We must cease any and all Russian imports, however, we must make China understand the game is over.
Although, that requires leadership to lead the British public in right direction.
Can anyone spot the Bluffer in the room?
How many ‘systems’ to a regiment?
Not enough;
Can we have several more Regiments?
Time to get your chequebook out Rishi. Need a lot more of these.
Now Switzerland are destroying their aging British built Rapier System. They won’t give these to Ukraine. Shame on Switzerland and four white feathers.