The three nations of the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) – the UK, Italy, and Japan – have unveiled a new concept model of their next-generation fighter aircraft at the Farnborough International Airshow 2024.
Exhibiting together for the first time, the GCAP partners and their lead industry collaborators, BAE Systems (UK), Leonardo (Italy), and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (Japan), showcased the significant strides made in developing a truly next-generation combat aircraft.
The new concept model displayed in Hall 5 features an evolved design with a larger wingspan to enhance the aircraft’s aerodynamics.
Herman Claesen, Managing Director of Future Combat Air Systems at BAE Systems, highlighted the progress made since the programme’s launch:
“In the 18 months since the launch of the Global Combat Air Programme, we’ve been working closely with our industrial partners in Italy and Japan under the collaboration agreement, and also with the three governments, to understand and align requirements for a next-generation combat aircraft. The new model, unveiled at Farnborough International Airshow, shows notable progress in the design and concepting of this future fighter jet. We’ll continue to test and evolve the design as we move closer towards the next phase of the programme.”
Guglielmo Maviglia, Chief Global Combat Air Programme Officer at Leonardo, emphasised the programme’s rapid pace and strong commitment:
“The pace of the programme is extraordinary, building on a solid foundation and industrial legacy in each country and government-led partnership. Since the treaty was signed in December 2023, the programme has seen strong commitment from each partner. Each brings different, but complementary, qualities and requirements. We are now working closely together to exchange knowledge, address common challenges, and achieve common goals.”
Hitoshi Shiraishi, Senior Fellow at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, expressed the collaborative benefits:
“MHI considers any project to be a valuable opportunity to deepen our knowledge. In particular, since GCAP is a three-country joint development programme between Japan, the UK, and Italy, we expect to obtain better results and deeper knowledge than ever before by combining the different cultures, experiences, and knowledge of the three industries involved.”
The combat aircraft, set to be in service by 2035, will be among the world’s most advanced, interoperable, adaptable, and connected fighter jets, featuring an intelligent weapons system, a software-driven interactive cockpit, integrated sensors, and a next-generation radar providing significantly more data than current systems.
GCAP is strategically important, combining the efforts of the UK, Italy, and Japan to deliver a next-generation combat air capability. The programme aims to enhance the security, political, and economic prosperity of each nation, employing tens of thousands of skilled individuals and advancing industrial skills and technologies.
The next-generation combat aircraft developed by GCAP will be known as Tempest in the UK. Lead Systems Integrators include BAE Systems (UK), Leonardo (Italy), and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (Japan), with additional contributions from companies like Avio Aero, ELT Group, IHI, MBDA, Mitsubishi Electric, and Rolls-Royce.
History of the Global Combat Air Programme
The Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) is a multinational initiative involving the United Kingdom, Japan, and Italy, aimed at developing a sixth-generation stealth fighter. The programme seeks to replace the Eurofighter Typhoon and Mitsubishi F-2 currently used by the Royal Air Force, Italian Air Force, and Japan Air Self-Defense Force.
In December 2022, Japan, the UK, and Italy announced the merging of their separate sixth-generation fighter projects into the unified GCAP. This was formalised with a treaty in December 2023. The timeline set by the agreement includes the start of formal development in 2025, a demonstrator flight in 2027, and production aircraft entering service by 2035.
Below is an early concept model of the aircraft, you can see a significant difference from he above.
GCAP involves approximately 9,000 people and over 1,000 suppliers from the three partner nations, with significant participation from the UK, Italy, and Japan. The programme aims to enhance economic growth and the military capabilities of these countries. BAE Systems, one of the leading companies in the project, has 1,000 apprentices and graduates working on GCAP.
The GCAP builds on previous efforts, such as the UK’s Tempest programme, which was unveiled in 2018 to develop a new fighter aircraft to replace the RAF’s Eurofighter Typhoons. Italy joined the Tempest programme later, while Sweden participated in related technological advancements. Japan’s Mitsubishi F-X programme, which evolved from the Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin, is also a foundation of GCAP.
In 2022, the UK and Japan agreed to jointly develop a new fighter engine and explore future air combat technologies, paving the way for GCAP. This collaboration is structured with each nation handling different aspects of the project. By 2024, detailed development and cost-sharing plans are expected to be clarified, with production starting around 2030 and the first aircraft operational by 2035.
There has been speculation about expanding GCAP to include new members such as Sweden, Saudi Arabia, and Germany. However, each potential addition presents unique challenges. Saudi Arabia’s interest has met resistance from Japan, while Sweden has delayed its decision to join until 2031. Germany’s participation remains uncertain amid its own defence programme challenges. In December 2023, the GCAP International Government Organisation (GIGO) was established to manage the programme, with Japan providing the first CEO and Italy the first leader of the business entity.
In short, GCAP represents a massive collaborative effort to develop next-generation combat air capabilities, integrating the best technological and industrial expertise of the UK, Japan, and Italy.
The new image certainly looks more impressive than the plastic mockup unveiled a few years ago. As with all highly complex defence projects. Navigating the politics and spending rounds is as important as the technology.
Man, this is exciting! Trust you’re well Robert.
Morning Klonkie. Agree-stunning design but, with Labour in power, let’s hope we are not to be haunted by the ghost of TSR2 and have a “TSR2” 2!!
Hiya Geoff – well said Mate!
Please no not again 🙄 🇬🇧
To be fair, the Tories were the ones that absolutely gutted defence from 2010 and cut it to the bone.
I’m confident we’ll get it. Of course, what we need are decent numbers of it, which is where I worry.
To be fair, to be fair, they also inherited a pretty dire financial situation (fallout from the 2008 financial crisis) from Gordon Brown & the Labour Party who also got us embroiled in the Middle East for decades (which cost us up to £4bn a year extra), so really, they’re ALL to blame for the 2010s.
Of course the 1965 cancellation of TSR2 (and 1966 defence white paper, gutting the rest of the armed forces) was also prompted by the devaluation of the £ at the time which was a wider issue than just the Labour party of the time. Though it was 100% the fault of the Labour government to cancel our own aircraft (and killing any export sales), right at a time when the £ was weak so exports would have been more attractive and imports (e.g. of the F-111) would have been more expensive… Seriously, it’s just economics 101.
And anyway, if you look at every other similar nation, they’ve all vastly reduced the sizes of their armed forces in recent years because the kit is getting exponentially more expensive and we can’t keep increasing defence spending to compensate when schools, the NHS, roads, councils etc all NEED more money.
I’m sorry, but at what point did we START increasing defence spending? We’ve had the odd dribs and drabs that have just about kept pace with inflation, and thats it.
The world has once again entered a period of great power competition. The reality is that if we want our way of life to continue, we need the ability to deter hostile entities from attempting anything
I was watching an episode of devonport behind the royal navy the other day and it included the oily slug Cameron standing in front of the crew on h.m.s ocean. telling them how wonderful they all were but neglected to tell them that the same nation was about to almost give away the home that they were standing on.W⚓R
I am confident the defence review will come out heavily in favour of it. Lord Robertson carries a lot of punch , more so than Healy imho and I am guessing he will not have agreed to lead the review without some guarantees about implementing the conclusions.
However the unpalatable fact is that we need a 3% defence budget not 2.5. 2.5 will be needed just to fix the mess the Tories left,
AUKUS alone will soak up a lot of budget. If even half the rumours are true it will be a Seawolf 2.0.
I know a lot of people recoil in horror at the thought and I, myself are not exactly comfortable with the idea but with both American 6th gen project stalled. I will not be surprised if back door discussions on tech share are not taking place.
Britain was conned into AUKUS by the septics and the convicts, we get absolutely no benefit from being a part of an alliance in a part of the world that doesn’t matter to us, we need to leave that alliance and do what’s in GB’s best interests not the americans’.
What utter nonsense. Even if nothing else was gained from it, AUKUS has raised the serious possibility of reinforcing our own submarine forces through economies of scale and additional investment. That would be worth it alone.
Of course, thats not the only benefit. The whole world matters to us; globalisation and the flow of trade and resources means conflict in strategic locations causes disruption everywhere; thus its very much in our interest to support friendly nations globally. Throw in cultural ties to Australia and the US, and it raises the question: how is it NOT in our best interest to be in AUKUS?
Complete tosh!
First of all, we have deep cultural ties with Australia and they are one of our best allies.
Secondly, we get massive benefits from economies of scale. As with any military equipment, the more you build, the more efficient it becomes and the R&D costs are spread amongst more units. The US are always going to have more submarines than us; they might end up with 75 of them. That alone will make them more efficient and cheaper to build, even before a UK and Australian order.
If they’re cheaper to build then it means we can afford to buy more of them, increasing our SSN fleet from current 7 to at least 10, maybe even back to 12 that it was circa 2001.
This is the same as any multinational project; Tornado and Typhoon, for example.
Honestly, with the parties as they are at the moment (in terms of policy rather than size), I trust a Labour government who’re making firm pledges to create a national industrial policy (similar to the so-far rather successful shipbuilding policy) to see the value in this and other sovereign defence projects. Far more so than a conservative party who’ve seemingly only been interested in stripping the shelves and salting the earth over the last few years.
Erm. Not exactly Labour will be happy to build foreign designs in the UK. It’s all about unions and jobs not a wider export strategy of sovereign designs. We’ll be joining more EU projects and Europe will not want UK to have a competing designs if we join PESCO even if we codeveloped a design with EU we will need EU approval to export it. I don’t have a problem with it but it has drawbacks.
I’ll re-emphasise: I said I trust this Labour government more than I trusted the former Conservative government- not that they have my full confidence!
For all their talk of “levelling up” and suchlike, the last government did very little of that- not even taking advantage of the opportunities provided by Brexit that they could have. There was nothing stopping them from coming up with a National industrial strategy, but they didn’t; they turned the opportunities of HS2 to reinvigorate northern areas into a mechanism to extend London’s commuter belt out to the midlands; then, when it went wrong, ruined any chance of salvaging it by selling off the land that they’d already paid for ( I wonder how many Tory party supporters benefitted from that..?); they didn’t listen to what the northern regions actually wanted (better east-west links, rather than north-south) in the first place either. Even the National Ship Building Strategy (which I support) was a product of their coalition days, rather than pure Tory.
Sure, I’ve no doubt that we’ll participate more in European projects and for that we will need to make some compromises on content/ workshare. Labour may well / likely will not deliver on everything either. But that’s a whole lot better than where we sat previously, and where we would continue to sit given the lack of Tory policy surrounding Industry in general.
I’m going to take a wild guess that you’re from the North and an ardent Labour supporter(?) Only the suggested accusations of corruption against Tory supporters suggests as much… I might not like the Tory party very much, but unless something to that extent comes to light, I don’t think it’s right to be slanderous about it… One can hardly critique others for their honesty etc. while making up accusations without any proof.
You do know that they DID introduce a bunch of tax incentives to try to get businesses (especially in the technology sector) to move to the north of England. It’s just that the government can’t really directly make jobs, they can only try to make it more attractive to move there… One of which is cutting the journey times from London.
North or south, we all have craptastic local rail networks. Yes, the North needs rail upgrades, BUT SO DOES EVERYWHERE ELSE! Other than the mainlines, we’re all on Victorian era infrastructure (that later got electrified). Much of the point of HS2 was to relieve pressure on the local rail networks. If the North doesn’t want a high-speed rail link with London, I’m sure there are a lot of other places in the country who would REALLY like that instead (like my area), so honestly I don’t have much sympathy with the complaints…
I was hoping that it would be the start of a nation-wide high-speed network, and I don’t much like how it turned out, but if the alternative is never building new infrastructure, just take what we can get! I am saddened that they’re trying to sell off the land so it will be much harder to revive.
As for the national shipbuilding strategy, other than appeasing the SNP in the short term, I don’t see how it’s particularly working well… Even the appeasement thing didn’t stand the test of Brexit!
Interestingly enough, I’m none of the above. I’ve never voted Labour, and I live inside the M25.
I take your point on not knowing for sure whether friends of Tories benefitted from the HS2 sell-off, I only raised it as a possibility. However, given the situation with COVID money going to friends of Tories being questioned at high levels, I don’t think it’s all that unlikely, nor slanderous. Given the speed at which it was done, without any consideration of future opportunities involving that land, and their previous re COVID, as a taxpayer I think it’s entirely reasonable to be raising an eyebrow and asking the question.
Yes, I’m aware of the levelling up plan- produced in the final 2 years of a 14-year government that have broadly ignored anything other than the financial sector for all of that time.
Yes, there’s a deal to switch to electric arc furnaces in Port Talbot, but it’s the cheapest option that they could have gone with and still keep the place open- reducing the plant to essentially just recycling scrap. No thought of selecting technology to enable the production of specialist higher value steels, that would fit a higher paid 1st world workforce long-term. No thought of providing lower electrical rates to high volume users like the steel industry, so that across the country the businesses themselves see enough financial incentive to make larger investments in their own businesses.
It’s all very well providing some tax breaks to encourage companies to move north, and I agree that the government doesn’t directly make jobs, but some seriously struggling industries that are already present in the regions could be supported with some more joined up thought.
These are just a couple of points that they could have done at any time if they were really serious about any part of the economy and country than the services sector in London. I’m quite sure that Boris really liked the idea of a strong manufacturing Britain, but implementation was bare minimum or below.
As far as rail goes, I’m sure the North would have been happy with a higher speed link with London, but biggest bang for buck (in terms of degree of improvement) would be better links between the regions there. All they needed to do was start at the northern end (the cheaper end of the line, due to land prices, etc.) and work south- rather than the other way round. Cheaper to make mistakes and learn from them to improve delivery up there rather than Buckinghamshire. Do other regions need better transport links too? Yes, I agree with you that a new national network should have been what came out of HS2. Frankly this isn’t in my view a North/South thing, this is a South East/everywhere else thing. That doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t be critical of the government’s delivery of what could have been a very successful infrastructure project for somewhere other than the already richest part of the country.
Yep HS2 was never prIced or planned correctly from the start- and it was obvious it was never going to be completed as intended.
As for the spiralling costs – well I think its prudent not to discuss that on a public forum.
It just shows how inept we are regards planning & implementing effective infrastructure – and maximising the benefits it should provide.
Sadly Laughable in all honesty.
My exact same sentiments , ,plan, build,Prototype Upset the Yanks,Scrap
Hi Klonkie. Yes, really good thanks. I was at the airshow at Fairford at the weekend. Great show.
Nice one Sir!
The previous image above looked remarkably like one of the FB-22 proposals with its clipped delta design. I liked it but this does look more purposeful and finalised. Gone away from a base that was perhaps as a short cut idea inspired by an ‘up winged’ Bae Replica to a more developed 20 year on thought out development. The potential in this design to maximise range that with modern warfare developments is going to be vital especially for Japanese operations in the Pacific as it moves away from a pure homeland defensive posture and counters Chinese and indeed Russian expansionism in its region.
The range requirements for Japan keep coming up. But have a look on a globe….they’re pretty much the same for the UK.
RAF always wanted the Typhoon to be a bigger aircraft.
The others didn’t as they saw it as a solely European defensive venture.
I hope we keep Germany far away from this. They will pull their usual trick and state they will buy 1000 units if they have 40% workshare and then drop it to 100 units when it comes down to it….
And then they’ll stop us exporting it!
Too true – they stuffed up the Saudi deal when it was a slam dunk.
I think the Germans changed their minds when the Houthis started attacking ships
Best not mention the man in a suitcase then….
It dies look a bit like the FB-22. It will be interesting to see how close the technology demonstrator looks compared to these new images.
Also internal weapons bays will dictate the aircraft size. As it needs to carry a sizeable weapons payload.
I will not be surprised if Japan join AUKUS. Now that they are gradually moving away from their previous pacifistic defence posture with an armed forces tailored to self defence and fighting the occasional incursion by Godzilla . To one more tailored to counter Chinese/ North Korean aggression.
Sooner rather than later Japan will want to join the Nuclear Submarine club.
What is a bigger risk is the US. Details of their program is light on the ground. If they come up with something significantly better for less (advantages of economy of scale) then one or more of the partners might jump ship making the whole project uneconomical. Italy is already indicating its not fully committed to the project and hedging it’s bets.
I guess that depends on the US export policy, they refused to export the F22 for example.
It’s not entirely clear if they flat out refused or no one was serious about paying the money, but fair point.
I suspect they will export as they were burnt with the f22, they just couldn’t afford the build number alone, which I’m sure is why they are flogging the f35 to anyone that is vaguely interested.
They actually passed laws that made it impossible to export due to fear of it’s advanced tech getting into the hands of potential adversaries. In the end the price of the f-22, like the B-2 and the Seawolf class subs went through the roof due to the numbers being cut after “end of the cold war” and not so much due to their intrinsic cost. By all indication to date, similar to the F-22 it’s very unlikely that they will export whatever comes out of the ngad program.
Laws can be changed. When the focus on anti air warfare went away with the end of the cold war I would guess they would have opened up exports if there was money on the table. But equally the rest of the world lost interest in pure air dominance fighters.
Their Senate has specifically made it clear they will not repeal that law. The 2010 Defense Authorization Act, specifically bans any export of “advanced military technology that gives the United States a lead over all other nations”. Congress and The Senate applied the act on the NGAD when the project was funded. It is a short-sighted policy, especially when you look at the success of the F35.
The thing that killed exports of the F-22 was the Amendment by Congressman David Obey to the 1998 Defense Appropriations Act. It specifically states: “None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of F-22 advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government”. It was carried forward in subsequent years until the F-22 went out of production. It was even kept in place when Japan was talking about spending an enormous amount of money to put the Raptor back into production.
So does that mean that the US Senate does NOT consider the F35 gives the US a lead over other nations then- not a great indictment that…
i believe the F-35 project ‘began’ jointly with america’s allies in 1995, so before that act was passed. the F-22 did begin before also that but it was america’s own project- not a joint one, so i assume thats why it never applied to it. also it could be that they believe the f-22 to still be a superior AA fighter than the f-35.
Didn’t I read somewhere (maybe on here) Reagan offered to sell F22’s to Thatcher but she refused (probably fainted when she saw the price)!?
The Italians will probably make a more informed decision after the US election
I don’t think mass is really going to be the issue. The US have indicated only around 200 NGAD’s will be built. It’s not a F35 type project numbering in many hundreds of units and into the thousands. Across the 3 current partner nations, the 200 region might be a number Tempest has in mind.
Is 200 an initial buy or total plan, as it seems insanely low for the US. Considering they wanted 750 f22 before the cold war ended and money went away.
I would guess the UK will order maybe 50, Italy 30-50, and Japan around 100, so yeah around 200.
200 is the number being talked about. These aircraft will be very expensive. 300M+ range. And also incredibly capable. The manned version of Tempest is only part of the overall Tempest capability. Drones will provide the future mass. It’s the same for the US. The 750 number for F22 was when the Cold War and Russia was seen as a major threat. That threat soon disappeared just as F22 was entering service. Plus massive cost overruns and delays.
the F-22 was so far ahead of anything russia or china had at the time or in the pipeline that also killed it. they couldn’t justify the cost when the f-15 already was leagues better than what russia or china could field back then. china’s pace caught everyone by surprise.
Based on the cost estimates for the US designs… Unlikely.
Plus, what with all the US hesitancy around Ukraine, I think the rest of NATO, but Europeans especially, are looking to divest away from reliance on the US for their national security.
Even if the Tempest is a bit worse value for money than an American option, if there is the chance that if when came to actually having to use it to defend your country, the US would block you from using it to strike whatever targets are necessary (as they have been doing with Ukraine), then they’re going to pick the option that they have significantly more sovereignty over.
In theory yes, but in practice the same argument could be used for UK. We have been blocking equipment going to Argentina for decades, and so have a history of using our veto.
If your going for removing that risk then you go for the France/German option as they are more likely to be aligned than UK is as UK almost always follows the US lead. Also as EU members they are aligned with the biggest economies aka buyers outside the US.
Outside the EU, most buyers will be paying whatever it takes to the US, in fear that the US won’t defend them. They will be more focused on US defence then their own capability. I suspect post Ukraine we will see the EU having progressively it’s own defence / foreign policy approach, as it no longer relies on the US.
At the moment the politics are broadly moving in the right direction with the existing partners. This has to be protected and any new partners need to be carefully considered.
I think inviting Sweden back in would be a good thing with their ethos of distributed operations .
Definitely. Sweden would be a good partner. The politics are definitely on defences side at the moment and gaining more momentum.
Keep an eye on those Frenchies. you can’t trust anything they say.
tbh I preferred the earlier cranked wing design
Impressive looking bird! It’s absolutely crucial to the UK aviation industry and there’s real hope that a partnership of equals with Japan / Italy and the use of new technologies will keep costs down.
The alternative is getting in the queue to buy American with a massive loss of skills and industry and no control over costs and timescales for upgrades and weapons integration.
Tempest won’t get cut. This means the army will likely take some hits. The RAF is lucky in that its only project going on is too big to cut.
Aukus is safe as well. Australia has too much riding on it and we seem to view Aukus as our way to stay relevant in the pacific.
As long we don’t cede our ability to do any of the major submarine bits to the yanks through Aukus, then it will go down as the greatest bit of British diplomacy in decades.
That is unless Labour manage to get us a seat at the EU foreign policy table without even being in the EU, that would take the cake probably.
It’s likely we’ll sign up to PESCO to get into EU programs
SSN-A is in the same not to be touched section of the defence review.
Sorry, but international cooperation and new technologies are not historically effective ways to keep costs down… Quite the opposite in fact.
What’s under the skin should be at least as interesting. Still wondering what sort of propulsion we’re looking at. The US is apparently dialling back it’s adaptive engine ambitions for NGAD, on the basis of cost. Settling for something less ambitious.
Just the 3 countries, please.
Others keep out, especially Germany and Saudi.
Germany and Saudi- too true 😁
..not to mention the French!!! Read the story of Concord with an ‘e’ 😄 A British Minister at the time said the concession granted the French at the time for their version of the spelling with an ‘e’ could also stand for England and Excellence. Private Eye said it stood for Eyewash and maybe Excrement 😂
Brilliant Geoff!😁
by the way DM, haven’t the Germans bedded down with the French on their next generation fighter ?
Issues have been there for a while.
The Germans and especially the French are hard to work with.
Germany buying F35 is an issue, Spain initially held out but now it looks like they’ll buy F35 too. The French of course won’t.
That means Spain and Germany will want SCAF to complement F35, whereas France needs it to do everything.
The French also need a carrier variant which the others have zero interest in.
The biggest issue of all is lack of experience. GCAP is lucky in that BAE has so much experience, and both Japan and Italy worked on F35. France skipped out on 5th gen so going straight to 6th gen will be very hard.
Plus France insists that Dassault be the sole design authority just like they did with Eurofighter.
Ah yes, the French interpretation of “cooperation” = You pay, we do.
thanks Louis, interesting insights
Nice summary. Worth bearing in mind how tricky the EuroDrone programme is at the moment as well, to see how this could turn out…
That said, Rafale is a really good aircraft- there is hope for France if they choose to go it alone. As you say though, jumping from 4.5 Gen to 6th Gen is a big risk.
Apparently. Keep clear, for reasons Louis just mentioned.
copy that!👌
Evening mate.
Just out of interest, why Saudi…Germany I get, but not sure on the negative with Saudi..they have bags of cash..and don’t really have a geopolitical agenda apart from beating on Iran/proxies and gaining regional hegemony.
Exactly, realistically Saudi exports are crucial for the UK side of things. If they where brought on before hand to guarantee the export sales it would make the up front R&D a lot more affordable.
What would be the Saudi workshare element? Imagine it was 25% and ask how long would it take for Saudi industry to reach a point where they could deliver that. The upskilling would take too long.
I’m not sure the Saudi would be much interested in work share…mores shares in profit and access to the final product.
Saudi is now 100% interested in work share as part of MBS industrial strategy to get them off oil.
It’s a myth that they have bags of cash. Their government finances are a disaster.
Saudis have no cash it’s a myth ? I challenge you to build a fraction of what they build with British tax payers money 💰 and let’s see how long the government lasts 😂 Those guys are now more loaded with higher oil 🛢️ prices and Ukraine war. They just want to get away from oil like Dubai did.
If they are loaded as you say why are the borrowing money and running a deficit?
“I challenge you to build a fraction of what they build with British tax payers money”
Have a look at Neom….and its progress….its laughable now…
The Saudis are very interested in workshare. They’re desperately trying to diversify from being a Petrostate.
They won’t buy GCAP unless they get a certain amount of workshare.
Not really I’ve worked with many of tge Saudi government JV in the past they already recon EF engine in country for instance. Lockheed build missile part there. They’ve really moved on in tge past decade.
Some reasonably substantial ethical concerns…?
I have to agree, GCAP is going to be extremely expensive, probably £20 billion per partner, crucially these projects are heavily front loaded in investment.
GCAP is going to require ‘many’ billions before 2030, especially with its very tight schedule and a project contract in 2025.
Now Saudi Arabia could provide an absolutely crucial cash injection, they can possibly provide 3D printed assembles to the final assembly lines too, as well as perhaps assembling their own.
The tight schedule will probably keep a lid on costs.
Most cost blowouts in defence are because of glacial projects being kept running to keep critical people in work over decades.
I would agree to a degree.
Lets not pretend, as a highly sophisticated,
large twin engined next gen fighter with all new technologies, GCAP is going to be ‘exquisitely’ expensive at best!
I will put a £20 billion price tag per partner on it.
Bringing in Saudi Arabia as an associate partner could mitigate that to £15 billion for the core three.
The secured funding, seperate corporate identity, modern manufacturing technologies and 3d modeling, coupled with excellent project management, should pull it off, hopefully!!
To peg it at that point, it needs to run as smooth as glass….
Depends how Gucci it is and how far it goes down the ‘good ideas club’ or just sticks with tech that we broadly have in a new frame and spiral it?
We have jet engines from RR, we have Radar2 UK IP, we have the helmet integration in BAE.
It is perfectly possible to recycle that tech into a new larger stealth frame – relatively easier if the frame is larger with a greater weight bearing capacity.
I agree it’s possible and while our Tempest demonstrator will use this tech, GCAP will be all cutting edge, new airframe, engines and avionics technology….
No getting round it, it will be extremely expensive.
So you want to share tech with Saudis?
Saudi-Pakistan-China axis.. China supplied ballistic missiles to Saudis.
Pakistan have an agrement to provide the Saudis with nukes if they ever need them.
I think to be honest china are far more interested in Iran…and Saudis will always look to those who are enemies of Iran…china will sell anything to anyone and Saudi wanted weapons the US could not sell them directly…and in the case of that ballistic missiles Saudi purchased them with the blessing and support of the US..infact the CIA are supposed to have been involved in the purchase.
The Saudis did press the reset button with Iran after joining BRICS, the Chinese facilitated that process. I think they realised economically Iran could benefit them as neighbours. MBS wants not to derail his grand projects for Saudi Arabia and have some groups like Houthis backed by Iran spoil it . Saudi foreign policy has changed and no longer feels it’s obliged to deal with the US with the petrol dollar agreement after 50 years having come to an end recently.
Go to the Top of the Class please
You love Arab money 💰 floating in London but you don’t want to share any tech with the Saudis ? I think you live in a outdated era mentality! That era is long gone ! Saudi Arabia of today is totally different. There is nothing in tech Saudis can’t get from China that they can get from the UK! Gulf states for this reasons joined BRICS where they feel more welcomed by the New World Order . How will the west EU US less than a billion people compete against China India alone 3 billion people almost and others like Russia Brazil Iran and soon Turkey likely and Saudis and UAE are members already. You explain that to me as the era of tech monopoly is over .
If China tech is so good how come no one buys their airplanes? They import airplanes from Russia which we now know to be shit, how come if Chinese tech as good as the UK?
Comic passenger Airlines
Go look at Boeing and Airbus have
And now concerned
Chinese military aircraft technology is still years behind in many ways…
They have, however, moved on from simply copying Russan technology. They are developing very quickly and benefit from China’s hybrid economy, where they blend free market and command, to simply ‘make it happen’…
J20 and J31 are stepping stones. You can guarantee they are already working on their own next generation with no expense spared.
Hence, the reason GCAP is so vital…
I think you really need to have a look at the Chinese population projections…their demographics are falling off a cliff. By 2100 they have less population than the EU as is…
And with that demographic collapse there will be serious issues in their economy….
Have a look at South Koreas for an even more rapid collapse….
Indeed you have Awoke
If we don’t, France and the US happily will!
Rather Saudi (who we have a solid defence aerospace relationship with, worth many billions for 50+ years) than India, who would sell anything to the highest bidder.
I’ll guarantee, Russan test pilots and technicians have been all over Indian Airforce Rafaels, for the price of a gas and oil deal.
The Indian government would sell its own grandmother for oil!
Agreed John . I’d urge much caution against bedding down with India.
The americans who plan to leave nato and have become almost hostile to the UK/europe? They need to be kept as far away from British technology projects as possible at this point.
Plan to leave NATO, nope, that’s simply not true.
Totally agree, keep the Americans well away from GCAP, while ensuring 100% compatibility with NATO/ US assets…
The aircraft needs to have no physical US content, so they don’t have the ability to sabotage any potential sales prospects.
Saudi repression of its people & murdering journalists thay don’t like for a start.
One succesful coup & all that flashy western kit could be in Islamist or pro Russian hands.
It’s stereotype Islamophobia of course! I don’t think they have been to London many on here , what keeps central London alive are Saudi and gulf Arab tourist! You don’t see especially in high end places Brits or Europeans spending there . Visa liberalisation to 6 months visa free has hugely benefited UK hospitality sector and retail which kept the economy from going into recession last year and this year. Saudis have been a strategic economic and security partner for 60 years. Pushing them away could lead into them investing in Chinese projects along other cash rich gulf states as China tries to anchor growing BRICS nations to its economy. Turkey I’m surprised has not being invited that built and flew it’s own 5th gen jet which has big aviation industry, another country that could be pushed into Chinese arms .
And there was me thinking central London was kept alive by the worlds largest banking and insurance markets, the 8 million people that live there or the 16 million tourists from around the world. But no it’s the handful of people from the ME buying handbags. 😀
London’s population was 14 million in 2011 actually, it’s more like 20+ now.
What is phobic about an imperialist religion?
Saudi has a number of decent companies who have completed upgrades in country to firstly the Tonkas and now Typhoons. I know a lot of people (Expats) who work for the companies and a few Saudis. Saudisation is ongoing but they recognise that they cannot do everything so they will always need Expat assistance.
I suspect they would want some input into systems and possibly a regional assembly factory if they came onboard.
The Tonkas have gone and Typhoon will need replacing. Plenty of other states in this part of the world who would be interested as well especially for a regional assembly and more important maintenance and upgrade hub. Qatar, Oman, Kuwait all use Typhoon. That with the Saudi airframes is a lot aircraft in region.
Security. I don’t trust them. And out of respect for a major partner in Japan, who don’t want them.
Ha I did not realise Japan would have that strong a feeling.
Only what I had read, ‘re Japan’s suspicion.
In such a historical event as Japan moving away from American aviation and partnering with the UK, I would respect them.
Security risk.
If they are at full partner level they will have access to very sensitive tech.
The Saudis have their own agenda whereas Italy, Japan & UK are all about containing Russia, China, Iran & NK.
yeah they have suitcases full of money …or was that journalists…. I always get the two confused….
A bit of both I think…although the one we are after is full of paper not parts.
Saudi should be thrown a bone just to keep them happy. They are basically a guaranteed order as long as we don’t spit in their faces.
Not too big a bone obviously, as we can’t risk a delay that would upset Japan, but I’m sure there could be something we could give them.
Germany’s new EW Typhoon has got me thinking, maybe if their project with france falls through we offer to let them develop an EW Tempest just to get them onside?
I broadly agree with you though, no big changes. We can’t risk this programme failing to deliver.
GCAP should consider a tier 2 of partners. It worked well for F35.
Excellent point Jim…
The key thing is this is going be very expensive, we need investors….
I think you still act like you led the imperial order . Saudis of today don’t need us! We are not the ones walking with cash and looking for partner nations to take the lead of a jet we conceived! So drop the ego mate . We can act that way once we need no partner nations to inject a Hundred billion which is like nothing for the Saudis.
You do know the UK has been lobbying to get Saudi in to the program and it’s Japan that’s blocking them.
Is Japan acting like it leads the imperial order then for this action or does your logic only apply to white people that your quick to call racist Islamophobic imperialists?
Morning Daniele.Can we commission you to do a painting of this bird in a sunny Sussex sky?
Ha! Morning my friend. Would be different from my normal fare.
Germany and Saudi have the deepest cash pockets !
Germany could join gain things from it while working with the french on the other jets . If Germany joins this could turn into an EU project saving them money 💰
Germany is completely brassed, they just cut funding to Ukraine by 50% and they have no more money left for military modernisation. Their government can barely pass a budget right now. You need to keep up and stop your UK bashing
So it starts as a UK project.
Then Italy joins.
Then Japan joins.
Enough. Trusted reliable partners.
And ends up an EU project with the EU running the show, too many cooks, and arguing over work share, on what was originally our aircraft!!
No thank you.
Absolutely 👍
Nah, Sweden would be a good partner to have too.
They do excellent electronic warfare suites, and their experience in operating in a survivable, dispersed manner while also keeping maintenance costs down would be invaluable.
They would, if they were interested.
This is too big for their needs I believe.
2 billion was earmarked until 2025 when the first flight is due to take place. If indeed, a prototype does actually fly, that will be progress of a very positive kind!
The sooner a prototype flies, the easier it will be to argue for continued funding when budgets may be even more stretched than now.
Yes it needs a prototype in the air soonest.
2027 is scheduled for flying prototype.
That aircraft will be a technology demonstrator. A bit like EAP from the mid 80s. It won’t be a Tempest production standard prototype.
Quite.
Will it have the back end of a Tornado and some bits out of a Jaguar in the demo version? Jokes……
Front end of an F35 and rear end of a Typhoon 😆 I would certainly guess the demonstrator will have EJ200 engines instead of whatever is in development for the production version.
The EJ200’s are almost a certainty as is Radar2 and its matching UK IP helmet system.
I wonder how much of the core of the EJ200 will be used…..quite a bit I’d have though…..maybe with the added electrical generation RR has been working on.
I think if they genuinely want this entering service from 2035/40. It will have more Typhoon avionics than they are letting on. And like F35. It will be upgraded over many increment levels and blk upgrades to reach the full 6th gen capability they are talking about a good few years down the line.
I agree.
I suspect it may enter service with just the latest EJ200s as well. Plenty of thrust there.
crumbs if it flies and performs brilliantly it feels like nervous repeat of TRS 2 all over again with cash strapped labour govt (not their fault). this project needed to maintain western aviation, other than american.
Massive difference this time is Japan. TSR2 went ahead in the end, it was called Tornado and built by panavia.
If tempest is as successful as tornado , that would be great. 👍
Just thinking that tornado came about because of European need to replace the questionable star fighters from USA. The partner’s eventually agreed to uk variant of 2 man all weather version with the terrain following radar and fly by wire controls giving smooth ride at 100’s ft. Tonka was born. Though low flight tactics did not work so well in Iraq.
Tornado was almost to specialist at low level. And then spent most of its life at medium altitude over the desert.
Id suggest that both the F4 Phantom and F16 were the replacements for the F104 in Europe,not so much the Tornado.
Looks about 10-15% larger than the F-22 minus the F-22’s horizontal stabilizers.
Delta shape is reminiscent Eurofighter minus the Canards given blended wings.
Body size and wing shape optimised for long range carrying capacity but they envisage some manoeuvrability requirement, if it was just a pure long range missile truck they would have gone for a tail-less design to minimize RCS profile and aerodynamic drag.
Funny how designs keep coming back to deltas, even the US which seems averse to them added a delta design to both the F-16 and the F-22 when they wanted to upgrade them. Fact is it’s difficult to beat when you want to combine range, manoeuvrability and weapon carrying capacity. The cranked delta was certainly a feature of a few designs over the years but have yet to reach a finished design or fade into more true Deltas as in this case. I wonder what the perceived advantage of it was deemed to be.
Don’t think the US is ‘averse’ to deltas….F-102, F-106, B-58 and B-70….and they developed the YF-23 and F-16XL…
How many deltas have we had in service in comparison?
Avro Vulcan, English Electric lightning, Gloster Javelin, FGR4 Typhoon to name a few plus a few more that were developed and then cancelled
Draken should have been more successful than it was.
Wonder then if the US might ever be interested in it too? Especially if they’re having issues with their NGAD? They’ve got be looking over their shoulder at it as competition? 😁
The issue they’re having right now is funding and GCAP will undoubtedly face the same issue in the years ahead.
NIH is the correct term 🙄.
The USA won’t even buy a missile off us. No chance they would buy a combat aircraft no matter how much they needed it. Not enough kick backs in congress.
Several foriegn US buys such as FN MAG, NSM, 57mm Bae-Bofors naval gun. Even took the Harrier & then developed it. Constellation class frigates based upon the FREMM design.
Dont mention Connies…
Another NAVSEA cluster ….
No one thing on your list was bought from the UK in the last half century. Do you want to include spitefires on there as well.
The US cannot buy foreign made weapons by law.
I said foreign, not necessarily UK Jim. So NSM & Bofors/BAE 57mm on coast guard & Littoral combat ships are over 50 years old? There’s also the Beretta 92/M9.
Jim’s getting confused between made and designed. You can sell a 155mm gun design of FREMM Frigate to the US, but they’ll insist it’s built in the states.
Without US prime partners anyway true.
As you raised it the US use of Spitfires is quite an interesting read, actually persisted till quite late in the war in reverse LL in a far more active a role than I had realised, indeed were vital to them in Europe when they entered the war.
A quick check of wiki shows US armed forces also using British 105 & 155mm field guns(M119 & M777) & 81mm morters. Apart from UK equipment they also use kit from Belgium, Austria, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Israel, Canada, South Africa, Denmark, Spain & Norway(micro-drones), Brazil & Switzerland.
Hawk. Canberra . Merlin (rr)
Some of their warships use RR turbines (aren’t the frigates to use RR MTU Diesel Generators too) their new Marine amphibious vehicle is based on an Italian design and developed and built by Bae US, a new range of infantry fighting vehicles is based on ASCOD/AJAX, Navy trainers are Hawks so yes a lot of foreign stuff to be fair, though certainly they are often resistant and obstructive too and that can go pretty extreme as in pretty much telling us to cancel the Big Wing Harrier and go with AV-8B if we wanted tier 1 involvement in the F-35B. And there was certainly resistance in various sectors to the GE/RR next Gen engine a decade back for the F-35 and FB-22 though budgetary considerations was arguable a stronger influence for its cancellation.
B57. Vigilant missile.
They bought the harriers , if the design is revolutionary enough and is better than what they have got then they will be interested . They need to keep their edge .
They bought harriers in the 60’s then built their own.
…and forced us to buy them to get into F-35 programme. They certainly like an offset.
UK did not have the money or will to develop the harrier and once the yanks showed their F35b proposal it was the end. harrier was brilliant and its brilliance was not recognized until after the falklands 15+ yrs after being rolled out?
I can see Lockheed Martin’s marketing department working over time on the vertical stabiliser. They will claim 6 gen means low frequency stealth and that Tempest is a 5.5 gen aircraft.
off course if they do build the tailless big fat missile truck they want in NGAD it will likely find it self out of service early just like the F22 and F117.
Eventually sensors will always catch up to stealth and if your plane can’t maneuverer it will be little more than a prize Turkey.
I’m very happy with the Tempest being an F22 on steroids.
That have at least made the vertical stabilisers smaller, which is probably to reduce the RCS. I wonder why they dropped the kinked trailing edge?
They said this week they increased the wing area to maximise lift and hence range. Still has very similar wing shaping to the F-22 though.
It looks, on the outside, quite similar to the F22. But appearances are always deceptive.
Got to be better than the F35 (aka Yak 141)
Money Money
It’s a rich man’s world
And bluntly THE UK has no monies to see this project all the way Through
Without raiding future budgets of Land
and Naval forces
So in the upcoming defence review there are some very serious decisions to be made
Why
1 There is a lot of hidden debt within UK balance sheet like PFI monies still owed techinaclly by Local Authorities , NHS trusts and other public bodies
And also cleverly hidden away is massive MOD budget overruns
All of which one or another The UK treasury is entirely responsible for
2 . Given above although ONLY a very few International Money Lenders strongly
Suspected that The UK balance sheet did not fully contain all UK liabilities
And along comes Liz Truss who by her
Irresponsible actions literally forced International Money Markets and Major Central Banks to lift the carpet in No 11
Downing St to assess the real finances
And when they found the dirt and added to UK liabilities this hidden debt
They were horrified which resulted in
Yes we will consider your request for future loans but as our re-evaluation of
Your finances Normal Lending not possible and in order to mitigate our exposures and vastly greater risk
Any future loans for no matter what shall only be considered at a much higher interest rate along with Erroneous default clauses
Why do you think Labours plan to borrow £ 28.5 billion every year for the next 5 yrs to invest in the Green transformation of UK industry
Something which all Major Nations are also having to do and mainly by way of borrowings knowing full well if they do not transform their economies expeditiously then it’s game over
Now that’s why labour Not only just scale back Thier plans but literally slashed and burned them which resulted in The Green Budget being reduced to £ 4.5 Billion for each of the next 5 yrs ( The Scottish Government has already commited the exact same monies from its budgets ) and most of the monies not coming from increased
Borrowing but Tax and Fiscal adjustments internally to finance this
That’s a simple plain truth that none in UK power or Authority will never openly
Tell you
So back to the beginning MONEY MONEY it’s a rich man’s World
And the UK ain’t rich anymore
And why unlike other Western Nations
In the mad stampede to adopt Neo Liberal Capitalism all as Reagan/ Thatcher play book
The UK sold vast amounts of State Assets and when the value ( very little)
Is put upon the balance then Nett liabilities are Way in excess of Nett Assets
That explains why other Nations are borrowing at favourable interest rates
And conditions
So given all I state then ask yourself this
Do the International Money Markets give one hoot wether you have 6 th generation fighter or not
Of course they do not nor give a Damm
The one and only matter that they now
Apply to the UK is How the Hell do I get
My Money back
Money Money has no principles or honour never had never shall
In conclusion should you proceed with Tempest what is going to be slashed in
Other areas of MOD spending
Even the USA has grave concerns about their 6 th Generation fighter
Meanwhile China continues to make excellent progress with their 6 Th generation fighter
But more importantly also in all of it’s defence developments
E.G no doubt another 2 carriers laid down and probably nuclear and the Rapid development of The JC 31 stealth fighter for Aircraft carrier deployment
And the final nail in the coffin UK is fully
Committed to replacement of Trident
And £ Billions of pounds spend
Go do the Maths or should I say simple arithmetic
Then respond to me only and only
Where the hell you gonna get the MONEY MONEY poor man with your cap in hand
Certainly not from lenders or Rapid GDP
growth and the impossibility of quickly
Changing the UK pathetic productivity
Labour dropped their 28 billion pound green industry plan a few months ago.
I well aware of such and why months ago because the Mandarins behind the scenes pulled Starmer
In behind closed doors when it became patently obvious that Labour would win the GE.
And as always id the case The Mandarins as their duties demand
Must prepare the New and next Prime minister for government and that’s what he was told that none shall publicly speak off , that simply that he would not be able to take on the borrowing proposed as the Money Markets would only consider such with eye watering interest rates and extremely onerous clauses in the event of any default
Along with and as this forum is upon Defence matters he was told
That as soon as HM the King had accepted Starmers request to form the next His Majesties Government
That above all else that He the Prime minister Must as his first duty and before all else MUST hand write a personal letter in his own hand and personal signature to each individual of the four commanders of HMS Trident submarines
The contents of which as prepared by The Chief of Staff
Clearly stating that in the event of a nuclear strike against the UK and the ability of HM Government being unable to communicate with the Trident Submarine under your command then here are the options
Open to yourself
In the UK Mandarins are a type of fruit, perhaps you can pass this back to your confuscious institute and tell them you have gained intelligence on the enemy.
We have no fruit whispering in the ear of our PM.
🍊🍊🍊 Mandarins have segments, your sermons could do with a few too.
CapiToLs aLl oVer the PlaCe and no punctuations anywhere.
I like the way you adapt on each profile.👌
If your Maths is as bad as your English, I’m going to call you Diane Abbott ! 😂
What are you going on about, each new PM writes a letter to instruct Trident submarines what to do if they lose contact as result of a nuclear conflict. What the hell has that to do with Mandarins (I have a very nice Mandarin Marmalade by the way you might like) dictating money international lending. I suggest for best 5th Column effectiveness you slow down and formulate your arguments a little better with a little greater emphasis on logic over picking scare tactics out of the air. Any spare pandas by the way, we do miss them, or is that above your pay grade in operating out of a North London Noodle Bar.
Tempest must worry the CCP as they have put their biggest Troll on it. Welcome back comrade.
Mr JBD above reads like AI bot-speak!
Go ask any AI chat bot
‘ Where is Wisdom to be Found ‘
Cause you have Zero of it
And neither has a Chat bot
Wisdom is only ever found in life forms Why Because it’s vital for survival of the Species
📴
Worries them not a Jot
Why because currently it is merely a concept and none can construct a defence against concepts
Only when such becomes a reality
Then you apply yourself to counteract and be able to destroy the concept that is now a physical
Reality
So few in the West have the most basic and simple of understanding of the 5000 yr old civilization
Called China
But One does and he a director of one the largest Western Auto motive industry and leads the research and design Department of that enterprise
Quote ‘ In order to comprehend the scale of the challenges our Industry
now confronts from The Chinese EV
battery and EV Automotive industry
And no matter from whom the innovation originated from
Then we in the West take such innovation from 0 to 1
But China then shall rapidly take it
From 1 to 100
Enough said you Got it yet ?
With all their ‘World leading copied technology’ one might have thought a Chinese to English translation App might have worked a little better. Which suggests to me he is doing this in his spare time between 哈啰 Shifts.
If you were to actually talk for this length of time without pausing to take a breath, You’d black out about 100 words in.
😂
At least you used ‘Maths’ rather than ‘Math’ so that’s one brownie point especially as that’s an American phrase. However making the meaning of your English more easily discernible would earn you a lot more. (Stupid)
😆 Epic sentences with no pause!
Non of that was written by a Brit , the grammar is appalling . Either russian or Chinese trolls at work
Resorting to insults will get you nowhere my friend . Insults are the last resort of those who have lost an arguement or have nothing of any intelligence to bring to the debate .
You are dismissed
Yeah, yeah money makes the world go around (great song by the way) and you are the expert on World economics, (if not English and Anger Management) so are telling us to don’t even try to resist your Imperialist hegemony and surrender to the great Chinese Dragon or its attack dog Russian pet. Take a rain check on that one thanks fella. Europe especially now it is waking up and working together with other similar Nations is not to be ignored and the use of demented, abusive and threatening rhetoric isn’t going to change that.
Have you apologised for Covid19 yet?
👍
As soon as I saw the name I scrolled down, got better things to do with my time then read some Russian or Chinese Bot.
I assume the grammar is as bad as ever?
Yep. Like listening to a barking dog.
So no apology then. Never mind, I expect that you’ll be busy now preparing the deep fried pangolin and half cooked bat for your supper.
Ah you have the stupidity to venture into territory you obviously
Know little of
Rather like one who blindly stumbled into a minefield
My post re COVID was purely regards Genetics and evolution
Unfortunately for you, Was you that brought up
Pangolin’s
A Genus which has been hunted to the brink of extinction and all for the
Ridiculous belief that Pangolin scales possess excellent Aphrodisiac qualities and possibly
Medicinal properties
Back to genetics and evolution now
Remember the evolutionary success strategies nature granted
Retro viruses by way to successfully
Jump to new host species
So now let’s go back to the Pangolin
The genome of Human COVID
Matches with Pangolin COVID
99.2 %
Which in turns to although impossible to prove beyond all doubt that COVID found a route to
Homo Sapiens by way of Pangolin’s
Directly or indirectly by passing through Bats to infect humans
Quite simply given the speed and huge numbers of Retro viruses
Mutations it is Technically impossible to be 100 % certain in any case where any type of Retro virus succeeds in jumping successfully
To a New Host species
Therefore given the remarkable genome similarity of Pangolin COVID to that
Of Human covid
One has no alternative but to accept
Indeed Pangolin’s are the source
( If not so then all we suffer from is a temporary lack of factual information )
So please refrain of playing Smart Ass
Why because in this case Nature has very simple ways in relaying
Strong clear signals that if you do not adapt and evolve then your ability to survive shall greatly reduce
Modern food production and processing methods and Human
Ruthless exploitation of other species for whatever reason
Required a clear signal STOP and amend your ways NOW
Then maybe that little Pangolin
Just maybe passed more than a deadly virus but also a signal
Of ” Before my Species departs this
Earth here’s a little present for you
To wake up because you might just be next if you do not Mend your ways ”
Or Simply evolve or Die
This is no Joke to be foolishly deployed by the I’ll informed only to attempt to demean another and attempt to display your own ‘ Cleverness ‘
Therefore go to the very bottom of the class and you stay firmly there
Till you mend your ways
Because indeed you are extremely
Dangerous with such flippant
Behaviour
😀😀😀, your attempts at English are the equivalent of a pigeon explaining physics.
Now, chop chop and get back to the wok. That rice won’t fry itself you know!!
Last reply to you
Pigeons if somehow Aircraft designers could even begin to understand how Pigeons not only Fly ( watch how a pigeon lands upon the smallest of ledges upon a sheer rock face )
But navigate not only by and in daylight the stars but wisely also the simple physical powers of magnatism and all with a brain considerably smaller than yours
Now if You can then at a stroke all
Conventional military aircraft go into the Dustbin of History
By the Way care to explain the capabilities of Pigeons to communicate in English or how to instruct a fighter pilot to land upon
That rock face other than slam right into it
Ha ha 😂. How did the bot eat its lunch?
In bytes.
Oh dear now we have Chinese trolls to add to the Russian ones. The idea that Chinese defence projects are all proceeding swimmingly compared to everyone else’s rather goes against much you can read in non troll rather more objective reports and one does have to wonder where your ‘expert inside information’ comes from if you know differently, the CCP pr Dept no doubt, but thanks none the less for your efforts in frightening us into compliance to our new Chinese Overlords, I’m sure your pay check will follow shortly though some attention to your English would be of benefit to your Master’s intentions, it’s still a bit Hisense Microwave Instruction manual standard for best effect.
Diluted UK design again = less future development and export benefits.
A raptor with delta wings
Maybe obsolete before first flight.
The first question is how much cost and how many can be build.
2nd question how to prevent that severe issues with F-35 that still 10 years later still do not fire a land attack missile
F35 is out of our hands, all we can do it’s develop a sovereign domestic capability.
Tempest can’t be out of date in 10 years as it will be the most advanced aircraft on the planet in 10 years. Drone programs were suppose to replace manned aircraft 10 years ago. It highly likely they will be saying the same 10 years from now.
That competition is not against other aircraft, but against other weapons that compete for importance of fighters,
For example all relevant countries are developing long range missiles: France, Italy, Poland, Germany, Japan etc will have in 5-10 years 500km plus long range missiles fired from land. Eventually a variant fired from air to increase range.
The Japanese version 2 already in study will have reportedly 1800km range.
These missiles are much more cheaper , no need such specific training, can be upgraded comparatively easier, a new version can be made that are not limited to the capabilities of the aircraft if needed, and are not as vulnerable to the insane missiles and drone attacks all airbases will suffer in the future.
For me i would get fighters to down other fighters at most.
The main issue with F35 is the software.
Thats a recognised issue.
Future aircraft will not have an all-encompassing software package as F35 does. It will be built in blocks that integrate with each other. You only need to mod blocks not the whole software package.
Precisely, software development is a totally different beast to what it was in the late 90s doesn’t mean there won’t be problems but the modularisation of it completely changes the environment in which it is developed and used. It’s why Space X can tweak its software in weeks or months to adapt and modify problems in flight tests. Changing anything in F-35 means testing and re testing every other major aspect of its control software covering, sensors weapons and flight control, a nightmare by comparison.
While I realise a lot of the F35 capability is reliant on the Block 4 upgrades, it amazes me, that after all this time, more weapons are not already integrated in F35. Saying they need the TR3 hardware refresh is true of some features, but Ukraine can integrate (well fire & hit the target – which is more that F35 can do), weapons like Storm Shadow into a fighter jet that has less processing power than than a high level phone.
SAAB figured out that a modular architecture was critical to EW rapid evolution separate to the flight controls. Mainly because the flight controls relate to the airframe and so the type approval that’s lots of expensive testing.
Obviously the airframe and engines don’t change in the time frame of electronic warfare, defense and offence capabilities which are a continuous improvement process.
So getting the software architecture and approach right has big potential for keeping the aircraft relevant and useful. Lower cost of ownership and quicker improvement may also result.
You got it bang on the money as the money spent and still required to spend
On keeping the bloody Albatross upgraded and maintenance
Bang goes more and more money every
Time it has to fly
On that one as I state above you have a point but thankfully we have partners who have proved good partners in the past, to help in this regard. Indeed the financial capability of the present 3 is far more capable than Britains likely adversary in the form or Russia, which has been shown to be almost totally incapable of keeping its aircraft fleet competitive or remotely modern. As for Japan the pressure may be greater as China is a far more concerning adversary in the future, but will no doubt urge it to build and exploit its own ample resources to keep the design current which Britain and Italy and other users will be able to plug into as they wish or can afford as with Typhoon already between partners.
Would be interested in your alternative solution, but I suspect it’s just to give up on defence altogether to make us more pliable to your Masters machinations. Why do you hide behind an English/Irish name by the way, what is it you seek to hide from this forum?
Thanks
My original post I in main referred to
Lack of money and strategic defense review
So let’s rise above it all and see what a thorough intelligent well thought out review can produce
But prior such the following caveats
Must be applied and Never let go off
1 Monies available ( Should any ever walk into a Bentley showroom and ask a salesman How much does that car cost .Then immediately the Salesperson says to themselves ‘ This person can’t afford this ‘ )
2.Cleary identify your foes
3. Once so get to know them to the tiniest of details and also with regards yourself
4. Then apply that should serious
Conflict arise How ,Why, Where and when
So let’s for the now only consider Russia is the foe to confront
Leave China out this for now
Having done so open up these maps of continental Europe
A ) Pre 1939
B) Post 1945
C ) 1960 at height of cold war
D) collapse of Soviet Union and so called peace dividend
E) Today’s Map
Now pay very closely attention to
All the boundary changes
Then focus upon NATO membership to all Maps and particularly the vast boundary changes to today’s. Much longer borders NATO now has with Russia
You now have the key as how to
Sensibly develop your defence review and act appropriately going
Forward
So now let’s see what this Modus Operandi tells you
1. Air capabilities well consider the resources of Today’s NATO capabilities and of what use UK deployment of 6th generation fighters would be along with costs and timescales/ logistics of such
Deployment and the effect this would have ( never forget the Money ) upon the outcome of such
Conflict
2. Repeat all for land forces
3. Ditto for Naval forces
Now open your mind and keep open
It now clearly stares you in face
That the most intelligent and widest
Of decisions in order to apply maximum UK force and capabilities
In meeting our obligations for NATO
its most certainly not mainly by Air or Land . However such can still be deployed in smaller units with specialist capabilities with more
Capable resources than other NATO
Members
Never forgot the Money
It’s so bloody obvious that the most
Effective contribution that the UK can deploy is Naval
And given the current state of the surface fleet this contribution to NATO does not add up to much
Therefore rapidly increase and improve current capabilities
After all UK fortunately still has
Such capabilities and plenty expierence of The Art of Warfare
In Naval capabilities for War not only at sea but influence land and Air Warfare
And all that’s exactly why I banged on about the Money Money Money
And no matter how little or much
You have of it
All that really matters is the consequences and Results of how those monies are spent
It’s all about about NOT how many bangs you get
But how where when and against whom you simply must deliver the
Most wise and intelligent of All the
Bangs you can deliver
Over & Out
Good reason to not rely too much on F-35 which is somewhat undermined by late 90s software technology. That is a sector that has developed and matured immeasurably since then, no guarantees but at least there is reason to believe things can work far more smoothly, certainly present efforts from Turkey and South Korea suggest smoother development than F-35 (though nothing is untroubled we have to accept) can be accomplished even under external restrictions and a lack of historical expertise. Which rather tells the lie about ‘money, money, money’ is everything in our troll’s hectoring attempts.on here. I would suggest anyway there is plenty of money available amongst the 3 present partners (let alone any new ones) to design and develop this aircraft if the will is there.
As for being obsolete upon arrival, I see no prospect of that considering its ambition (the ambition itself might be the only concern one might argue) considering the longevity of aircraft designs. The Gripen won’t be obsolete any time soon nor Typhoon or Rafale or even F-15 or F-16 to a degree. What would make it obsolete one has to consider as long as it has competitive Stealth, sensors, radar and weaponry? The aircraft will be competitive against any likely adversary as long as those aspects are and the Russians and Chinese are massively behind in stealth as things stand and I don’t see them being more advanced in the other aspects (though there will be advantages/disadvantages to balance) and cannot see them likely matching the engines either judging by their present levels. An aircraft would have to be markedly inferior in all manner of ways to be obsolete and as the Typhoon was years late and arguably compromised from its original concept and certainly through initial weapon fit, the F-35 years late and still greatly compromised and the F-22 decades old none of these are remotely obsolete long after entering service or will be for many more years.
Fact is the nebulous 6th Gen headline is already a very advanced subset of equally nebulous requirements that can and will change over time and argued over no doubt but whatever comes out of it will be cutting edge in capability (whatever the Telegraph/Mail et al will likely denigrate) more concern will likely be how many we can afford and how determined we are in keeping them totally competitive which is probably the one point the troll makes any sense.
So embarrassing, countries that contributed not much to concept and initial design take the lead ! Like the US F35 there should have been tier level memberships like 1 2 3 . Instead they appear not just equal but take lead positions despite this being a British idea . Stereotype UK . And soon with this new government likely it would become an EU led jet with all new idea of joining EU defence projects
Come on James it’s precisely because we have contributed the most into the concept at this stage that we are giving these positions of note to the other members so as to on the surface give it an air of equality, important when those Countries have to seek their own funding on the project. Perception is everything, just look at F1 yes it’s a little galling that Mercedes and Red Bull are superficially German and Austrian but in reality both, esp the latter are British teams who due to varying factors display themselves as superficially foreign. There is much complimentary international cooperation within but when you bite your tongue the contribution to Britain of those teams to Britain is substantial so well worth holding your nose even if we wish British identity is at the forefront.
Giving visibly important positions to a Japanese and an Italian like those F1 teams doesn’t make British influence a reality esp to those in the know, it’s to try to give those other Countries some visible impact. Things will be fundamentally the same once Brits take up those positions as figureheads though the Japanese will no doubt grow in contribution over the years, which is a good thing as we can’t afford to develop this alone and they have skills we don’t or are not so good at. This feels quite a well balanced set up,actually.
I suggest looking less at the countries (though important), & more at the companies involved.
We should spend as much time designing the machine that builds the machine as we do the actual aircraft.
What we need is the Japanese perspective on modern optimised manufacturing processes and not the European perspective of cheapest effort and workshare decided politically.
If you make a good product and can manufacture it inexpensively you’ll sell it. If you can achieve that outcome and in doing so avoid bankrupting Western Air Forces we avoid future defence cuts and we all win.
Spot on this is exactly why I think cooperating with Japan is a vital ingredient and can expand in all manner of technology sectors hopefully.
This looks very impressive and will once again put the UK at the forefront of aviation design and production . My only concern is the new Labour government pulling the plug .
The planform looks similar to the FB-22-2, a long range F-22. I always thought we should basically build a stealth Eurofighter, and not be over ambitious (to reduce risk and cost). Another thought – the mockup changed when Japan joined Tempest, making it look more like the Japanese prototype. This mockup also resembles the FCAS prototype. I wonder if there’s a behind-the-scenes attempt now to merge GCAP with FCAS?
A fair bit bigger than Fcas though, and hugely split requirements
Yes, you’re right. Now I’m thinking that Starmer just wants to chop the project and divert money to pay for wage increases…
Chopping this project would massively harm relations with Italy and Japan, I don’t think it is even a consideration at this point. Diplomacy demands GCAP succeed.
To be fair , if this government has any sense which it doesn’t it’s not a case of can’t afford to it’s more a case of we can’t afford not to . If this country isn’t invested in for the future and I don’t mean pointless so called infrastructure investment which just means cash for the boys/girls and more than ever they/thems then we slide ever further..time to be bold and innovative like we used to be a hundred years as go.
Would it not be a good idea to get rid of the tail fins,make it more stealthy!?
Looks like someone has read their Tom Clancy. It looks a tad like the fabled F-19A Ghostrider.
Anyone else think the center of gravity looks wrong?
Yes, but we don’t know how the mass is distributed internally.
Just to clarify, I hold my hands up for mentioning the Germans and Saudi’s but I was suggesting sales to not integration in to the programme after all they both fly Typhoons.
The post I put on was not a reply to you ,or anyone else for that matter. It’s just my opinion on the Article .🍺
OK but since I mentioned it, this Germany thing keeps coming up and I sort of felt responsible, sorry if it appeared that way to you. 😟
Especially as I fear Trump just might try to replicate what made America great in version 1 ie feeding off of European/World conflict to sell large amounts of arms and thereafter exploit the aftermath of a bankrupt Europe/World to turn its factories to selling all manner of goods to feed its modern Industrial Revolution.
The Gcap treaty is an excellent idea the next generation stealth jet looks formidable for all our countries. I really, really hope it can maneuver, operate and deliver knockout punches in an air fight or a one on one dogfight !? And please as a UK 🇬🇧 citizen please keep it on time and cost effective. If all our respective forces Army,Navy,Special Forces and our magnificent Royal Airforce spend money wisely and efficiently we can once again be a military power to be respected and feared throughout the world by our enemies!
Shame the new British government will probably shelve it then.
Talk last week that this might be the case .
Yet another pipedream. Even if it is good and even if it is delivered on time (and neither is likely to be true), when push comes to shove politics and big US money will kill it and it would be interesting to see what it has in terms of technological advances that the US and RUssia and China have not had for ten years..
Germany, does that mean they are considering pulling out of the European FCAS programme?
Afger the total chaos the German caused with Typhoon, I would think long and hard before opening the door to them and how they are integrated into the project. In my opinion, it should be a take it or leave it .
Well they say if it looks right it will fly right and aesthetically it looks good. Not sure about the fins.
It reminds me of early speculations of the F117 where it was more Frizbee than the cut diamond it actually was.
Yeah, I know where you’re coming from with the F19 depictions, can see it now, all rounded rather than the sharp lines of the F117.
Needs the inward canted fins
Mirage X
Great! Another defence item we can lend to the Americans while totally failing to maintain our own borders!
surely you’re not surprised?
Everyone should bear in mind that the model shown is likely a red herring and is only showing the direction the designers are thinking. There is a lot missing, but a lot has changed from the previous model. Plus is this the demonstrator or is this where FCAS/GCAP will be leading?
Dealing with the differences first. The top of the aircraft’s fuselage has been made flatter and more blended. This means that the V-tail doesn’t have the radar trap that the previous model had. Plus it means that more of the upper surface is used to generate lift. The tail boom extension has been made shorter and it looks like the V-tail is slightly further back. So the exhaust will be slightly better shielded by the V-tail. Shortening the tail boom, could mean that in the model simulations, it was likely getting too hot from the exhaust. Having the V-tail further back does mean they have more leverage, as their moment arm is longer. So pitch and yaw authority is increased.
The wing shape and area are the biggest changes. The leading edge sweep angle looks about the same. But the trailing edge has now become straight loosing the cranked edge. Which by the looks of it makes the aircraft longer. Also a longer straighter edge is better for reducing the frequency that radar can get a reflection from using the resonance effect. Which is generated from straight edges acting like antenna that are half the wavelength of the transmission. By making the edge longer the wavelength needed to generate the resonance effect must be longer (not missile tracking radar). Similarly the wing tip now is cranked, possible for a similar radar resonance reason.
The wing’s surface area has definitely increased and the planform has become more of a classic delta. Delta’s are very good at cruising in the transonic and supersonic zones. The leading edge vortices help generate more lift overcoming the greater form area (wetted surface area) drag. The larger area is also great for storing more fuel. Deltas generally have higher stalling speeds and normally have a higher angle of attack when landing. Which can be compensated for by using a canard. Having a bigger surface area for generating lift also means it should be able to fly higher.
It does look like the nose has got slightly longer and pointier. Where they have tried to maintain the fineness ratio of the aircraft’s length to wingspan. But the aircraft still looks very wing heavy and stumpy. Which generally means it won’t be very fast, but will be quite manoeuvrable. Though I doubt it is in the same league as the F22/Typhoon.
There are a few things missing, such as the wing surface flight controls or will they use a combination of laminar flow control along with moving surfaces. The images definitely don’t show a 2D/3D exhaust, which some people say is unnecessary. However by having them, it does mean the vertical stabiliser can be made smaller. Plus it enhances the pitch and roll authority, if used together or differentially. Also as the F22 pilots have stated, it means the aircraft can maintain flight authority when flying much higher.
Parts that haven’t changed are the blended leading edge root extensions with the engine intakes and the nose chine. Both of these have two functions. The are used to stop the circular induced radar wave travelling around the body of the aircraft, the chine stops this. Also at certain angles of attack, the chine will generate a vortex that is likely to stick to the aircraft’s upper surface to help generate lift. Similarly the forward leaning engine intakes will do the same, where the vortices are aimed towards the V-tail, for better high alpha control.
Interestingly, they still haven’t shown a view of the underside, where the weapons bays are likely to be positioned. Still a lot of work to do no doubt!
I struggle to understand why they have released a design preview of a Top Secret new platform. The US have said the NGAD could not have rear vertical stabilisers to be a true 6th Gen radar aircraft. They are known to have been developing an air outtake model the same as the B2. Revealing the model past the plastic mock-up from a few years ago just helps the Russians and Chinese surely? The level of security applied to this project is extreme. Releasing a design preview undoes much of that.
The WW3 Spitfire – looks impressive
More models, more statement of intent from politicians who cannot be trusted. 6 years gone already and no where near building a prototype. The longer this saga goes on the more it will cost. If Starmer gives into the commies and his green lobby in his party it will never be built. Ironically, its only hope is left wing Kremlin appeasing trade unions.Who knows what damage cancellation will do to our relationship with Italy and Japan.t
Looks pretty. Too bad UK will never buy it. F-35 will completely replace the Typhoon in due time, and it’ll cost so much to run that UK MOD will not purchase it. Does UK have technological prowess to develop and put it in production? It does. Will there be funds available for this design to go through development and into serial production? That’s open to debate, considering UK economic position and the need of huge investment into it overall.
To be honest, with the situation in the USA post-November, being able to develop our own military aircraft is even more important than ever.
Anyone like the old concept model?
Thrust vectoring?
Is it just me or does that just look like an F-22?
tempest? the multi billion pound project that the u.k. has agreed to get involved in but neglected to insist on a VSTOL version our carriers will be expected to operate obsolete aircraft. as the f 35 will have been in service for a good while. the only way around it will be to remove the ramp, fit EMALS etc and operate the as conventional carriers which is an improvement over what we will have in t5 next ten years
That’d require two versions then with a large dissimilarity in design, F-35-style.
This is clearly not going to be a Catobar aircraft though
I had a flashback first impression when I saw this. The large delta wings reminded me of the good old Vulcan bomber, which I first came across as a undergraduate apprentice at Rolls Royce, Filton (c. 1967/1968?), when it had the developmental Olympus 511 engine strapped underneath it, getting ready for Concorde. btw: the greatest surprise was how small/cramped the Vulcan was inside. So it seems to me this “fighter” design expects to carry a fair bit of weight.