British and American F-35s take flight in Exercise Joint Warrior

But I say my good man, the thinking that ‘dogfights are a thing of the past’ has been supported before, only for it to come to no avail. They took guns off jets only to find out F4Phantoms were getting shot down by MiG17s in knife fights. They thought that because post war jets fly at supersonic speeds, they wouldn’t need to train for dogfights and that too was proven wrong.

Stealth doesn’t make one invisible, it just gives you more time. Heaven forbid that we get into a real fight with a 1st tier advisary and rely on ‘hoping’ we don’t get seen and have to maneuver against incoming missiles. It’s a total fallacy. You must be able to use that good old fashioned airframe flying, to evade the missile.

Although the stealth, systems and missiles may be top notch, if it’s engaged with another similar stealth fighter that does have great BFM, what is it’s plan? Run away? Rely on a numerical superiority?

Just shows you why skilled Typhoon pilots call it the ‘fat kid, with special pants’. We must invest in Tempest and make it a stealthy typhoon-type of AS fighter.

That’s why I used the word hopefully! Its range worries me most. It seems woefully short legged, as do most carrier jets. Oh for the F-14.

Don’t be silly, on internal fuel the UK F-35’s have a longer range than Typhoons.

That’s not a big claim to make and there’s not much in it. I can see why the current range is not an issue for strike missions. My worry is F35s having to deal with threats to a carrier at range, that was the reason for the F14 and it strikes me that reason is back again.

Out of interest what can the F14 do that the F/A18F can’t do? Seems strange that the USN were keen to replace the former with the latter and did so completely by 2006 if it was so great. Also I note that an F14 unit only won the yearly top strike unit award once in competition with strike squadrons using F18s and other aircraft. Would seem an odd conflict there if it were so superior to the plane that replaced it.

The F14 was intended to be a platform for the Phoenix missile. It was a long range interdiction aircraft with a powerful radar to support the AIM 54. The idea being it would intercept Russian bombers carrying long range missiles aimed at taking out a carrier. The strike mission, to me, reflects a post Cold War approach. It seems to me that long range threats from peer adversaries are back. Perhaps Aegis and T45s are enough to provide a shield. However that’s the thrust of my point.

It’s a shame the Phoenix missiles didn’t work. The concept was great, it was just the then technology letting them down. Today we have the Meteor that has pretty much the same range as Phoenix, but fired from a stealthy aircraft (ok in a few years time). So the essence of the F14/Phoenix mission is still going to be used, i.e. Hit them as far away from the carrier as possible!

F-14B/D had longer legs than the Super Hornets, better thrust to weight and acceleration but wasn’t anywhere near as reliable and a maintenance headache. Doesn’t matter how good a fighter is if it’s down for maintenance.

Stealth fighters have no drag from external stores, pylons, sensor pods and that helps extend their range.

Seeing that Typhoon pilots are British they wouldn’t use the phrase “fat kid, with special pants” in a thousand years. All of your comments on this thread are absolute made up rubbish.

Looks fine to me and it doesn’t have to be pretty just effective. We will get enough to sort out the carriers and keep the RAF happy for a while. In the meanwhile life will move on and technology will provide something better to invest in.

Read my earlier post. How can a stealthy dogfighter still have a big internal weapons bay full of missiles, including large ones?

That’s true in Vietnam wasn’t it

Hi George, Dogfights have always been relatively rare – historically, four out of five pilots shot-down never see the guy who did it!
The secret is to creep up on your opponent unseen – and shot him in the back. Or those days – with a missile from long-range in the face. Arguably, having better situational awareness than your opponent is the key to air-combat success – not manoeuvring. Detect, close, kill – disengage.
On that basis, I think the F-35B will be an outstanding
air-defence fighter for the fleet.

F35 has a very capable Helmet mounted sight, ASRAAM Is also a world beater. Very good performance, Exellent APG81 radar, Outstanding Situational awareness, adds up to a very capable platform in the air air role. All RAF fast jet pilots are trained to a very high standard in BFM. But not one wants to do it. You want to kill the bad guy from 30 miles away, and live to fight another day.

At the age of about 9 years building Airfix models of among others Westland Lysanders,I am old enough to remember Duncan Sandys saying that the dogfighter had had its day and missiles were the future!!

Hi Geoff, I think he might have said in 1957 that “manned aircraft” would soon be obsolete – so TSR2 was going to be the last RAF bomber, and therefore loaded-up with too ambitious a specification – with resultant huge cost
over-runs. Conversely, the Lightning was supposedly the last manned RAF fighter – always on the cusp of retirement, and never developed to its full potential.
Despite being Churchill’s son-in-law, Sandys has a lot to answer for!

Nothing beats a Typhoon? I’d check the results at Red Flag if I were you.

Red Flag is and will stay a training exercise, not a realistic simulation.

I should have clarified that I meant in close air to air combat.

Hi Harry, As a “bomber” – it’s certainly no slouch!
I think being able to pull 7g, plus utilise high-alpha manoeuvring, if needed – and with a sparkling acceleration, means the Lightning B has many characteristics of an outstanding air-combat fighter.
On paper, the Sea Harrier was pretty mediocre – but its opponents soon learned different!
But air combat is really all about situational awareness – and I think we too much emphasise the manoeuvring element of the dog-fight. Dogfights are very rare.