British Typhoon jets have conducted air combat training with Rafale fighter jets from the French Air Force.
According to this RAF news release:
“This week, Typhoons from 903 Expeditionary Air Wing in Cyprus conducted joint training with Rafale multi-role fighter jets flown by the French Air and Space Force based in the Middle East. Carrying out bilateral air-to-air combat training over the south east Mediterranean, the fighters were supported by air-to-air refuelling from an RAF Voyager, also from 903 Expeditionary Air Wing.
The aircraft practised simulated long-range missile employment based on radar tracks of the opposing fighters before closing to do visual combat training (dog fighting). The RAF Voyager tanker provided air-to-air training to extend the time on task for the fighters so they could repeat the training to further improve proficiency.”
Wing Commander Holland, Commanding Officer 903 Expeditionary Air Wing, was quoted as saying:
“Today was extremely useful for furthering both nations’ ability to provide fighter response to a contingency scenario. It was a great opportunity to further develop the interoperability between the two air forces flying different aircraft types. In addition to some very valuable flying, the operation sends a strong strategic message that we remain in the Eastern Mediterranean as a valuable member of the counter-Daesh mission, ready and able to work seamlessly with our many partners in the region.”
Who won 😆. For the amount of jets the raf have they always seem to be doing something which is great. Better the use up the airframe hours while the tech is still current and move onto the next new aircraft. Keeps the pilots trained well and hopefully helps with retention in the roles. If they can get tempest working and get into a schedule of new aircraft/versions of aircraft every 5-10 years it should help a lot with the budgets, constant stream of development, companies making parts etc always have work. Whether this is possible in new fighter aircraft… Read more »
Excellent, despite the Anglo French governmental bun fighting, the two major European militaries work seamlessly together and leave blustering Boris and little big man Macron to squabble like children….
Military people are civil servants under the orders of their governments. So they do the training because both military still have permission to do so from Macron and Boris .
The French want an EU army and are destabilising NATO which is Britain’s core security policy .
I would not be surprised to learn both of them actually have no idea what their military’s are up too!
There are rumours abounding that Macron is not the full quid these days. Personally I think he’s just a !!!!
Macron has bitten off more than he can chew. He wants a leading role in europe for France however I am not sure that’s what the French or the rest of Europe want. I suspect things will go badly for him quickly (or worse slowly).
Oh I would love to know how he is described in private by other EU leaders ! He was never 100% but apparently AUKUS sent him over the edge.
Hi David, Well he’s just sold 80 of the excellent Rafale F4 aircraft to the UAE in an 18 Billion Euro deal.
In terms of orders, it’s still unclear exactly what the United Kingdom will get out of AUKUS. Meantime, France is outperforming the UK in global defence export markets.
You need to speak to him. Give him a pep talk tell him everythings going to be fine. The UK economies collapsing the supermarkets are empty and the people rioting in the streets to rejoin the EU. In fact either you or the Guardian.
PS which economy is the bigger again ? Why are 10’s of thousands risking there lives to get out of France and reach the UK ?
Thanks David, But I don’t have Macron’s mobile number – neither am I remoaner – nor read the Guardian! (Puzzled emoji face).
Despite comments about Macron, France has been doing rather well on world export markets – that’s simply a statement of fact. The UK needs to raise its game.
Yeah just checked according to the House of Commons library the UK is the second largest arms exporter behind US. That’s my source what’s yours ?
Check the SIPRI figures on their website. It’s an international organization about peace around the World. They are taken seriously about theirs investigations
According to them: 1)USA 2)Russia 3)France 4)Germany
Have checked at least a dozen. The only thing they have in common is they all disagree. The problem appears to be that no-one can agree what constitutes ‘military’ kit.
Well last figures I read probably early this year Britain was still well ahead of France who however were fast closing. Has to be noted mind Britains lead was almost entirely down to Saudi business which of course was a declining factor. So yes in essence France is currently doing a good bit better than the UK. Of course that’s to a considerable degree because they have very much long combined political and business interests to push through their exports, Greece a great example at the moment. Britain as deludedly thought it could copy US ‘Anglo Saxon’ economics with the… Read more »
Yeah agreed but all of the debate about who exports the most and to whom seems academic unless we can define what qualifies as ‘military’ and what ‘civilian’ We can say at least on the surface we’re getting our act together on the naval side of exports but on land and air warfare we need to improve.
Hi David, I think that debate is over batons, tear gas, vehicles – and communications equipment. But to avoid deliberately mudding the water – what is being discussed on this thread is high-end military sales – French success this year in selling three frigates to Greece, plus Rafale to UAE, Greece and Croatia. That is outstanding success by French diplomats and industrialists. Unlike the UK, France has a long history of developing military products that other countries want to buy – aligned with the support of the French state. SIPRI is thought of as pretty authoritative – and after 2021… Read more »
Yeah agreed the French have been smarter developing kit with one eye on exports. Type 26 by accident and 31 by design show we’re learning on naval side at least. On Cpl Frisk had a look in past and not for me.
The Rafale deal to India is a shining light on French diplomats and industrialists of how to bring bribes (sorry success) to international deals.
The Australian sub deal is also a perfect example of how to totally screw up a fairly water tight (no pun intended) international order bank by royally taking the p**s on the pricing.
Hi James, Large international arms deals are a murky business. The best aircraft doesn’t always win. Reports over UK sales to Saudi Arabia and India hardly suggest we are knights in white, shining armour.
Didnt say we are by any means, trouble is with the UK deals it will be Saudi paying UK officials for the supplies not with the French buying the business from the Indian’s!
Anyways hopefully India doesnt just then sell the technology over to Russia.
Exactly! What France loses on the swings, it will win on the roundabouts!
No idea about Macron but Boris is smarter than he looks but is interested only in the big picture. That’s good in that he would likely leave the military to get on with the fighting and not interfere. Teresa May would likely have micro managed everything without really understanding the strategy. Which would you prefer?
let them havre their little spats but as been proved in articles on this site when it comes down to it the military side of things carry on quite well.
I simply don’t accept your choices I’m afraid. If Boris were so smart why would he create foreseeable shit storms almost on a weekly basis, people think it’s some sort of fiendish plan when it isn’t. Publicising a letter to Macron which means the HS is de invited, only sensible if your only interest is to prevent her showing her in o pretence or appealing to xenophobic voters who already support him, or ignoring the business rep so overtly you are being photographed with outside number 10 when the whole idea of the pic is to show unity and purpose… Read more »
I am confident that Boris’s contribition to that letter was signing his name. FO diplomat probably. HMG could not let the UK be blamed because France/EU cannot or will not manage it’s boarders. A diiicult message to sugar coat and offers of help will always be taken as an insult however people died in French waters in unseaworthy craft. I’m not sure Boris’s brain is in charge of his mouth sometimes but this parliament is going to be ruled by the big policy stuff and big crisis politics. He has big ideas but is there any substance behind them that… Read more »
Which sh*t storms has he personally created on a weekly basis exactly? I mean ones he is physically liable for not ones created by and blown out of proportion by the press btw.
No,. The French want the EU countries to have collectively military capabilities to intervene outside of NATO, e.g. outside of Europe. It would require additional funding, on top of some countries commitments to NATO.
Not all EU countries are in NATO, so it would be something new to them.
I suspect relations between Boris & Macron are just fine in private.. Macron is just trying to get elected again and bashing the British is good for votes. The Spanish kicked up a fuss about Gibralter when elections were ongoing there. Joe Biden did a bit of kicking the Brits when he wanted to get out the Irish vote. It’s all part of the game. I’d get a little worried if the military of any country didn’t carry on business as usual.
I’d have to disagree about Macron and Biden. I think they genuinely hate our guts. As to Spain meh !
On a personal level or just because we have done stuff which is not exactly making their lives easy.
Sorry but no.
Contrary to british, bashing the UK in France doesn’t mean anything for election/population, peoples mostly doesn’t care about UK.
Only fishermens actually have some interests in UK, the rest of France is more likely to be like “They are not in the EU so who cares ?”.
We are more likely to look at Poland (too close of the US), Germany(Too close of the russians and turkish, only market is important for them) and Italians (because they are pretty close of the chinese:..).
The French didnt care about the UK when it was in Europe either so nothing new on that front.
From what I have read in the public domain, by all accounts the Rafale is the better dogfighter. Is this really true? I’m sure pilot training has a lot to do with it but again, I doubt there is much difference between our pilots and the French. People always say that the two planes would never fight each other in reality so why does it matter but given both have been exported to unstable areas of the world, there could be a scenario where they do go head-to-head. This also begs the question – are the export variants of each… Read more »
From what I understand, the Rafale may have some advantages at low level but the Typhoon reigns supreme in transonic and supersonic engagements at medium to high altitude. Better to have what it takes in the BVR arena than down on the deck.
Thank you Stu!
I also read before that the RAF recognises they need to improve their pilots’ dogfighting skills rather than just relying on BVR engagements. Not sure how true this is but I thought it was interesting.
Typhoon is primarily intended for BVR at supersonic speeds. It is likely better then the French fighter in this role. Its Meteor missile gives a long range punch. However Typhoon’s ASRAAMs should provide a medium range advantage against the French. So in reality the chance of a Typhoon frighting in visual range is less likely. However if you wished to kill the French airforce you would use F35 ether with or targeting Meteor. F35 with Meteor could detect planes before they could be detected and fire first. In reality the French airforce is a generation behind the RAF. Also F35… Read more »
Hi Stu, It’s argued Rafale is a more mature multi-role combat aircraft than Typhoon. That advantage, allied to French diplomacy, has resulted in significant recent export success.
BAE has long hankered after selling Typhoon to the UAE, yesterday’s news of a huge Rafale success will have them grinding their teeth.
Not so much the British grinding the teeth as the Yanks as they had agreed with Trump to buy F-35 then about faced into more Rafale.
It appears they have done just that!
The United Arab Emirates (UAE) has signed for 80 Dassault Rafale combat aircraft from France, the manufacturer announced on 3 December.
Signed in the presence of the President of the French Republic, Emmanuel Macron, and the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi and Vice-Commander of the Armed Forces of the UAE, Sheikh Mohammed ben Zayed Al Nahyane, the contract covers the F4 aircraft, representing the first export order for the latest standard Rafale that is set to be rolled out to the French armed forces.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defence/latest/uae-signs-for-80-rafale-f4-combat-aircraft
Most French military exports are on the back of their much stronger diplomatic ties. Rafale is more expensive than both Typhoon and F35 so unless the French government is heavily investing money back into UAE the selection and numbers don’t make a lot of sense. The French might have a base out there or something and some kind of defense pact. I do think the delay in the UK radar has screwed Typhoon on exports too.
The delay with radar 2 certainly hasn’t helped matters that’s for sure. The first flight is scheduled for 2023!
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/feindef/2021/11/03/new-radar-kits-abound-for-the-eurofighter-fleet/
Typhoon was rejected long ago, this deal has been cooking for a decade or more – they went for Rafale and then looked at F-35 and then back to Rafale.
Hi James, In 2013, BAE thought it had a UAE deal for Typhoon in the bag – but despite UK government support, negotiations collapsed in the final stages for unknown reasons.
It is galling for the UK that despite a long-standing relationship between the two countries, the Emirates instead uses France as its “No.2 ally” after the United States – and accordingly gives the French a large slice of its defence budget.
Yes my old boss was involved. No idea why it went pearshaped, but there has been a lot a bad press for UAE over missing Princesses and the like – and also a fair amount of Russian and Chinese money and influence there too. France may have sidestepped all of that stuff not having the amount of connections as UK and USA.
They’ve got an air n sea base there which prob helps.
Relations aren’t quite as cordial as both might try to express of course which may or may not be a factor.
Indeed dogfighting isn’t one thing as I realised reading about F16s against Gripens, typhoons against F22s or Gripen or F15 against Russian fighters. It’s very complex with advantages and disadvantages at different heights, deltas against non deltas aerodynamics, engine thrust, power to weight ratios et al and the weapon fit. Change a scenario by a few percent or alter tactics a little and the balance changes immensely it seems so only a real war will in many cases determine. Judging by what’s been written about Typhoon F22 engagements however if you take stealth out of it, I would be surprised… Read more »
Hi Spy, Agreed – and as I never tire of repeating, it’s estimated that four out of five pilots never saw the aircraft that shot them down. Dogfights are relatively rare in combat ……….
The Rafale has just gained another large export success – 80 for the UAE, and like the Typhoon they are equivalent to what are used by the FAF if not more so,the Buyer chooses the Spec,it just depends how deep their pockets are.
I don’t know if it’ll make you laugh as much as it did me but Francis Tusas twitter feed has an interesting group of photos titled ‘It’s so badass when people stand in front of shit they destroyed’ Enjoy !
Yep, saw it, it’s the individual bottom right who’s the main culprit!
Well guy’s been reading up on the Russian ,Ukrainian problem has France and UK part of NATO looks like Typhoons and Rafales may up against Flankers and Migs never mind each other.US President and Putin have a meeting on Tuesday hopefully it gets sorted out.What do you Guys think ?
It’s a genuine concern Andrew and it’s looking increasingly like who blinks first….
I sincerely hope that it never happens, but the UK and France would stand shoulder to shoulder if the Russians pushed into Ukraine and threatened NATO.
Putin is just the latest of a long line of ‘little men’ with a chip on their shoulder. Unfortunately, people tend to die when they try to prove what terribly big men they are……..
Let’s all just hope this isn’t a tipping point..
My worry is that currently Russia holds, if not all the cards, certainly a strong hand – essentially access to gas supplies to Europe. Any retaliation by NATO/west could and probably would result in gas supplies being turned off.
Removing Russia from swift etc is one thing, but how would Europe react to wide spread energy supply issues at the coldest time of the year?
From Russian perspective, would this be their best chance at expanding further into Ukraine?
All the best.
Boris and Wallace need to stay out of it, unless they want a slapping from Putin. With the navy possessing barely any ASuW, and the RAF down to c100 jets, no GBAD then I’d suggest we need to be very very careful. We’re in no shape to take on a peer, and haven’t been for c 15 years since Cameron took control.
Since then it’s been cut after cut after cut. As much as we should support Ukraine, I’m afraid we’re in no fit state to do so.
Hi PRJ, John ….. If Putin does attempt to chop off another slice of the Ukraine, I think NATO powers are only talking meantime about economic sanctions – for instance, not buying the gas that Putin uses to fund his armed forces. Another potential option (deniable) may include a massive cyber attack on Russian infrastructure.
On the subject of Typhoon vs Rafale sucha pity that they could not have continued co-operating on a joint project. They are, at least superficially very similar
Down to French intransigence unfortunately Geoff, French insistence on its design, engine lead and overall project lead etc, being the core of the project.
French insistence on Carrier capability, limiting size (below the RAF’s threshold) making four fuselage mounted medium range missiles impossible and increasing structural weight.
Can we blame them for that? They wanted an aircraft that matched their specifications (nuke+carrier) and they get it. Congrats to them
Afternoon Delabatte,
Nothing wrong with that at all, except France joined an international group…
They got what they wanted, but the cost was absolutely crippling….
The cost of Gen6 is beyond most nations to go it alone, hence the only way it can be replaced, via collaboration, at least you have to put up with the Germans this time and we don’t thank god!
Good luck with getting the money out of them and expect the Germans to be dithering and drag their feet every step of the way….
John
Just for balance, Germany has been a stalwart industrial partner for the last 50 years on the Tornado and Typhoon programmes. Indeed they are now buying more Typhoons than the UK – and keeping Warton in business.
A good point Alan…. That said, the Germans almost caused Typhoon to be cancelled numerous times in the 1990’s. German insistence on the size and weight of the Tornado IDS, thus it’s limited range, limited its export sales opportunities too. The UK pushed hard for an aircraft that would have been far more like a swing wing Phantom, i.e, genuinely multi roll, the Germans insisted on a narrow focus into a short range, low level bomber. Had the aircraft been based closely on design work done on the UKVG project (though Tornado benefitted from its wing sweep research) , it… Read more »
Hi John, Well, I don’t think Germany threatened Typhoon cancellation “numerous times” ……. although I agree Helmut Kohl wanted out of the programme in 1992, following unification between East and West. Eventually, Germany did stay in – although orders and workshare were altered. It’s said German budgetary pressures caused a 2-3 year delay. One might argue, though, the greatest delay to the project in the Nineties was concerns over the flight-control system. As regards, Tornado – the complexity came largely from the British, not the Germans. The RAF demanded an aircraft to fulfil its interdictor/strike requirements: All-weather, first-pass, tree-top delivery… Read more »
Can’t argue there Alan, it sold very well, mostly based on Cold war orders, but still…. I recall a BAe led effort to sell a multi roll variant to Japan, based on the F3 airframe with the Sea vixen radar and re engined with US engines in the late 1980’s. From memory, it was never seriously considered, but I would like to think it at least showed the type was just one developmental ‘push’ from being a true European Strike Eagle, it would have been a tremendous aircraft…. As Typhoon was by then in development, any further serious Tornado refinement… Read more »
Thanks John …. there was also a Buccaneer replacement proposed (for anti-shipping strike) based on the superior F3 airframe, but using GR4 avionics – although dropped after 1991.
For all the criticism over its sluggishness, at low-level the F3 was the fastest thing in the skies!
The UK procured 385 Tornado’s, 225 GR1’s and 160 F2/3’s.
The Germans have spent more than a decade making muckups of decisions on fighters, by prevaricating.
Another Ursula von der Leyen special aiui.
And at the end, the Rafale is an overall better fighter, less costly and easier to upgrade and export…
I know we make a lot of odd things in France, but sometimes we just doing things right..
And its probably going to happen with the FCAS since the german want too much and are too slow to take decisions.
Its sad when you see in the others hand how we can perform on missile (SCALP/STORM SHADOW, METEOR, ASTER, FMAN/FMC).
Just imagine an european fighter as good as the METEOR or the ASTER.
Afternoon Hermes, I would take exception to it being a better fighter ( Rafael is good, but better than Typhoon?), it’s radar is very limited by the nose design of the airframe ( giving it a small scanner that can’t be re positioned), the current Captor M of Typhoon is a matured design and extremely capable, reliable and excellent range, with a far wider sweep…. The UK E Scan radar, referred to as Radar2 will be a game changer, far more advanced and way more capable than just about anything else out there including F35, with a very impressive list… Read more »
My money is on F35 for the German and the French going alone for the Rafale sucessor
It’s quite possible Dalabatte. Certainly the Germans will be a problem for the French, they will object to just about every sales opportunity…
Can France go it alone without downgrading their expectations and the design I wonder?
Germany objecting to sales opportunities seems strange.
They have never had that problem in the past aiui eg submarine engines to China, frigates sold to both Israel and Egypt etc.
From what I’ve looked into, the Rafale is marginally the better multirole fighter- which could well be what Hermes meant. They really are very good aircraft. The latest F4 Rafale alreday have AESA radars and I’m sure they’ll be being developed further, and I understand that the French EW and countermeasures suites are very good. No idea if they’re better than Typhoon, mind. I did read that France’s more aggressive ROE over Libya had Rafales flying more “risky” missions over the warzone than RAF aircraft, and they didn’t lose any. Whether that’s down to their defensive suites or not I… Read more »
Hi Hermes, I agree that Rafale is an outstanding fighter-bomber – and a great credit to French industry. It’s also a manifestation of a political commitment to your aerospace industry – and a independent approach to foreign policy. But I don’t agree that it’s a better aircraft than Typhoon – you’re pushing it a bit now, my friend! Typhoon was always a more ambitious project – and the aerospace industries of UK, Germany, Italy and Spain delivered a technically more advanced aircraft to meet demanding NATO specifications. Despite currently better export success (following the UAE order), there are still many… Read more »
More Typhoons only because of the numbers of countries involved at the beginning. The biggest difference is: The first mass production Rafale can be upgraded in the latest Standard where you need to replace your old Typhoon… When you are talking about more ambitious for the Typhoon, more ambitious where ? Technically the lone point where the Typhoon is superior is in interception, thanks to a biggest engine and slighly better attitude in high altitude. All the rest, even in avionics, the Rafale is ahead. A lot of people talk about the limited AESA size of the Rafale, and yes,… Read more »
Hi Hemes, Thanks for your reply – and joining the debate from France. And congratulations on the UAE order. I think John argues very well for some of the advantages Typhoon pilots enjoy over their Rafale counterparts. But I agree – it is very difficult to be objective! So let us agree instead they are both very fine European aircraft. 😉 I agree – that for political and industrial reasons, it may no longer be possible for the UK and France to co-operate on combat aircraft. A pity, though, because collectively they have the skills and resources to produce a… Read more »
Can’t see that happing my friend ,although both co operate with the jaguar which was a fine aircraft .Would you believe the French government reject it for there Navy even though it was better suited then the U.S. F 8 on their carriers ,because it was partly British.🤔
HI Andrew, Yes – despite its British partners – it is claimed Dassault engineered the cancellation of the Maritime Jaguar for its own somewhat unspectacular Super Entendard. At around the same time, much to the chagrin of Westland -the French also scaled back an order for the Lynx helicopter. Meantime, the British (sticking to the original agreement) fulfilled their part of the Anglo-French helicopter deal – and procured both the Puma and Gazelle. Despite Hermes’s comments, one does wonder if France’s go-it-alone policy can be sustained into the development of a new 6th gen fighter – particularly as it has… Read more »
I’d agree with you on what you’ve written there, but either way I think we can agree that our pilots have excelletn aircraft to fly! You are also unfortunately probably right about the various FCAS/SCAF programmes and domestic needs. Which is a shame, because I don’t think the French and British have had such similar requirements for an aircraft for a very long time. We both want a programme that has a manned and unmanned component, with 6th Gen capabilities, utilising many of the same weapons systems. What’s more, we will need to be replacing F-35B and our QE2 carriers… Read more »
Not so the US will build a F35B replacement for the USMC, we will buy that. We may even be part of the programe. It might be that there is no manned replacement and only drones.
There will be no 6 Gen programe convergence in Europe. This is a political reality.
You’ll note that I said that I acknowledged that we wouldn’t be able to play with the French, just that our specifications seem to align more than they have in the past. I suppose we could indeed jump on the USMC’s F-35B replacement, but it seems to me rather a waste of the Tempest project. That already includes manned and unmanned components, so it dovetails very nicely with LANCA and Vixen, and would cover the potential UCAV-only carrier future you suggest. Sweden will still want their short landing and take-off capability and Italy may also be interested in a future… Read more »
I thought Sweden are in the middle of buying another 3 decades of Saabs?
Haha, they may well still do that! They’re invovled in the Tempest Project for now, clearly they see the way things are going in terms of L/O manned and unmanned teams and realise that Saab don’t have all the answers to that on their own. Maybe they’ll stick with Tempest, maybe not- I hope they do though!