Soldiers from the 7 Aviation Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers and the Reservists of 158 Regiment Royal Logistic Corps convened at Swynnerton in Staffordshire.
Their mission: to aid Apache and Wildcat helicopters executing strike and reconnaissance operations out of Nesscliffe in Shropshire, a location 40 miles away.
The British Army say here that the critical objectives of this exercise encompassed ensuring that aviation units received an uninterrupted supply of fuel and ammunition. Furthermore, they were tasked with providing specialised repair and maintenance for helicopters and vehicles.
Lieutenant Colonel Anna Swales, the commanding officer of 158 Regt RLC and leader of the BSG, remarked on the collaboration: “The two units have come together to run a depot to provide all the supply and maintenance services that the combat units need to do their jobs. The concept is nothing new, but this is the first time it’s been done in the field to enable and sustain 1st Aviation Brigade Combat Team.”
She further added, “For both units it’s a new role but it’s been functioning really well – our capabilities complement each other and we’ve built up towards this exercise, with a lot of conceptual work and smaller scale training.”
Exercise Iron Titan, which spans six weeks, involves an astounding 6,000 troops across 22 sites in the South West, West Midlands, and Wales. The primary aim of this exercise is to ensure that combat units can be efficiently and effectively deployed to crucial locations.
Note Brimstone/2 proving adaptable to any suitable platform, from stationery land or sea right up to fast jet. Manned or autonomous, in relatively quick time. Not so much Apache, though, with Hellfire the option until US next gen missile. ‘Know’ there are ‘reasons’, but these start to appear curiouser & curiouser.
Missile integration cost a few hundred million
And goes to the back of the queue as it isn’t ‘made in USA’.
‘Possibly’….. 👍
Might answer for the first ‘curiouser’, Jim, but with the second I bore in mind a) my above observation over Brimstone iterations, as well as b) we’ve had the Apache airframe for something approaching two decades, I believe.
The new version is MOTS – the old version was bespoke.
So in the new version it is purely a US job to integrate.
Mm, which I’m interpreting as a return to your comment over US priority?
Yep, Curiouser does not seem too far from the mark. Gone back over what thought could remember, and still struggling to see exactly what real benefit in terms of missile technology Hellfire & then JAGM will give UK over Brimstone2 & developments thereof. I’ll stand corrected, of course, but JAGM appears in many respects a catch-up of current Brimstone – albeit already integrated (handy). Will ease off US’ throat somewhat, if a recollection that maybe some of JASM has leveraged Brimstone?
Rgs
Apaches already have the +40km range Spike.
I’m surprised that, with the whole array of weapons systems that Ukraine has been requesting up to and including modern fighter jets, that I have never heard anyone mention modern attack helicopters. The types that they are using currently are dated Soviet designs with unguided rockets as the primary munitions. I can see why we wouldn’t necessarily want to provide them, given the battlefield/airspace conditions, but that doesn’t seem to have prevented Ukraine from asking for things in the past.
I’m not sure how useful attack helicopters are against an entrenched enemy given their expense/Low survivability and limited capability relative to a fixed wing aircraft.
Having little clue on the matter, I just assumed that, like other systems that have been provided, modern attack helicopters would be performing similar duties to the platforms they already have, just further from danger and with better precision. Maybe they’ve had their day? Perhaps we can scrap Apache and invest more on drones for the low end stuff and more on fast jets for the high end stuff.
I have wondered the same thing. Are modern missiles so capable that helicopters and IFVs are just too vulnerable on the front line? If so, then both types of platform would revert to transport roles, delivering troops only as close to combat zones as their survivability allows.
The strike role would be taken over by drones or loitering munitions.
Much like the tank they are still very useful and effective however they are expensive with major logistical issues and much of their job can be replicated by cheaper platforms like drones or more capable survivable fixed wing aircraft.
Useful if they have overwatch and fast jet defenders as well as deconfliction prevent blue on blue? So you need E7/P8(as we don’t have E7 or AWACS anymore) with RIVET and F35 doing the stealthy thing close by at altitude and Typhoon/F15/F18 interdicting and unfriendliest stupid enough to stumble into the arena. Backed up with Sky Sabre and the Italian ASTER based systems. As solo participants on a battle field I don’t think they would add much. As part of a sanitised airspace in which anyone pointing a MANPAD is taken out by loitering munitions then they would be super… Read more »
It sounds like attack helicopters are a “nice to have” item for certain situations but these situations are becoming increasingly niche in a similar fashion to the career of dedicated ground attack aircraft such as the A10. As a solo actor, would the UK military have enough of the other tools, such as fast jets, to create the benign environment for Apache to operate in and, if not, should we not just spend our money on those other systems which have other roles in shaping the battlefield? As part of a coalition then, of course, the USA will have Apaches… Read more »
War isn’t best and tidy.
You need a range of options, resources and tactics. Otherwise it become predictable.
The A10 is towards the end of its life – USAF has been trying to getrid of it for years. Closer to home, what dedicated GA aircraft does the RAF operate? The army needs its own GA aircraft for CAS and the Apache is that.
Not saying that Typhoon cannot do GA but it is not a dedicated GA aircraft and it won’t always be available for GA.
Hi Graham. I think over the years there have been a number of capabilities that have been folded into multi-role platforms because, really, only the US had the luxury of maintaining the whole suite of dedicated systems for all eventualities. I just have the feeling that it is becoming increasingly difficult to employ attack helicopters in the way that was envisioned and that, perhaps it is time to spend elsewhere. I get that Typhoon will not always be available for GA but then would it always be available to protect the airspace when we want to use Apache? If we… Read more »
Difficult to employ AH…Because of the drone threat? AH has had counters before such as MANPADS and LLAD. AH are still flying. Drones are not without their weaknesses and they can be countered.
The army want and need organic aviation support – they don’t always trust the RAF to turn up with GA aircraft at the right time and place – they will not give up AH just because of drones, anymore than we will give up the tank because anti-tank weapons exist.
“All that said, the progress in “drone” technology has me feeling manned attack helicopters days are numbered.” Agreed. Mojave should be next on our shopping list for the carriers if all goes well on the flight tests. PUBLISHED SEP 26, 2023 “The South Korean armed forces have showcased a stealthy-shaped flying wing drone in a huge military parade in Seoul today. A small uncrewed aircraft like this could offer the country a less detectable and vulnerable means of conducting surveillance and reconnaissance missions. It might also be capable of performing other tasks, including launching electronic warfare attacks or kinetic strikes,… Read more »
We might as well scrap every manned system on the battle field!
I have tried to find out how many AH on both sides were downed by drones and have drawn a blank. You must think that drones have taken out many AH – do you have details?
If you want to replace Apache AH-64E that would be a pity as we have just spent a lot of money on buying them. I can’t see that a drone or a few drones could possibly replicate what AH-64E can do.
Hi Graham, for now, I tend to agree with you, as for the future!
Jackal drone fires Martlet missiles for first time in RAF trials
LINK
The future replacement for AH-64E is a slow, jammable, drone that can fire just 2 missiles and has no cannon? I’ll put my money on Apache.
Another asset possibly with a Radar Warning Receiver & an active Jammer installed? “JACKAL is a small, lightweight, modular vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) drone that is expected to fill a crucial position in the future unmanned air force concept for advanced combat operations. The UAV will provide flexible capability for multiple types of combat missions over land, sea and air, such as air interdiction from the battlefield, close air support, engaging helicopters in flight, destroying tanks, delivering logistics, and preventing the enemy from using runways and roads. The drone’s ability to launch and support the LMM makes it capable… Read more »
It is all nonsense. Every weapon system has a counter, then a counter counter, you don’t just get rid of assets like Tanks and Helicopters because a Drone can negate them, when the Drone itself can be taken out when a counter is introduced.
Yep, very true. A dismounted infantryman has dozens of counters. Still got the Infantry!
Hi sir, complety different topic, but I thought I’d ask you knowing you have at least several fingers on the pulse of the world of military/defence, if you’ve heard anything/ anymore on the possible loss of a Chinese submarine, up to 55 dead, apparently caught in one of their own submarine traps, information on this incident has hardly been reported, thanks.
Evening mate. I’ve heard no more than what we read, which is very little!
Wouldn’t surprise if it’s true.
Call me Dan, mate.
Ok will do, for what it’s worth I’m a Dan as well.
Splendid! Hope you’re doing OK with your issues you mentioned. 👍
It’s a pity we didn’t continue developing Taranis other than a flight demonstrator, I wonder where we would be with it now. “The UK MoD announced that the contract for the Taranis unmanned air vehicle demonstrator programme had been awarded to a team led by BAE Systems, in December 2006. The first test flight of the Taranis unmanned combat demonstrator aircraft was conducted in August 2013. The aircraft surpassed the take-off, rotation, climb-out and landing requirements during the 15-minute maiden flight which was later followed by other flights of approximately an hour’s duration at diverse altitudes and speeds. The project… Read more »
Read on 2003 attack on Karbala where 31 Apache attack on Iraqui Medina division was defeated by rifle and gun fire,
The Apache survival quality was shown but it was a nasty defeat. It took 1 month for the unit to be able to operate again.
An interesting (and disturbing read) Alex. One should never underestimate the value of good intelligence and planning.
Indeed. It shows also if a country don’t have quantity depth helicopter attack fleet can be made inoperative in one such attack.
Do you really believe this sort of mendacious drivel from the Iraqi side and their fellow travellers
One Apache shot down !
There is no such unit as “11th Attack Helicopter Regiment”
There was an 11th Aviation Brigade,many types of choppers, but its Apache battalions were the 2-6 and 6-6 Cav
Yes, 6,000 troops is astounding these days. Not sure if I’m pleased we can still muster that for an exercise, or disappointed it’s astounding. I’m certainly pleased we are doing this type of exercise, and very happy to read about it.
I thought it was 8000 on another news outlet. Largest exercise in 20 years
Something like AW149 as a combined medium transport / recce / attack helo with Marlet, Brimstone and a 50.cal would have been lovely instead of this awkward Apache/Wildcat/Puma split we have now!
They are as different as chalk and cheese is why
AW149 is a 9 tonne ulility chopper probably replace the Puma with similar or better capability carry 12-14 soldiers
Apache is a specialised attack helicopter – being upgraded with new engines and avionics
Aw169 Wildcat is a 6 tonne utility-light attack helicopter- maybe carry six soldiers
The question is if you are firing +20km missiles(50km the last generation Spike that can even be fired behind a mountain) you need an Apache.