The most powerful deployment of British air power at sea this century has begun assembling aboard HMS Prince of Wales as the UK Carrier Strike Group heads towards the Indo-Pacific, the Royal Navy has announced.
The largest fifth-generation carrier air wing ever assembled is being built aboard HMS Prince of Wales as she leads the UK Carrier Strike Group into the Indo-Pacific.
Since departing Portsmouth, the flagship has embarked eighteen F-35B Lightning II stealth fighters from 809 Naval Air Squadron and 617 Squadron RAF. A further six F-35Bs are expected to join the ship later in the deployment, bringing the total to twenty-four — the largest fifth-generation air wing ever operated aboard a single carrier.
Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, who joined HMS Prince of Wales to observe the assembly of the air group, said: “As she heads out on one of the largest deployments this century, we are sending a clear message of strength to our adversaries, and a message of unity and purpose to our allies. We will always stand with our allies and our commitment to global stability is unshakeable.”
In addition to the F-35s, the carrier’s embarked force includes sixteen Merlin helicopters (Mk2 anti-submarine and Mk4 troop-carrying variants), Wildcat maritime helicopters, and Malloy and Puma drones tasked with logistics, reconnaissance, and surveillance missions.
The full air group will be flown, maintained, and operated by around 750 personnel under Captain Colin McGannity, Commander Air Group.
“It’s taken a huge endeavour to get to this point thanks to thousands of people in squadrons, air bases, supporting staff, and industry,” said Captain McGannity. “It’s a huge privilege to lead this air group, to show what it can do and I’m massively looking forward to it.”
The Royal Navy stated that Operation Highmast is intended to “send a powerful message that the UK and its allies stand ready to protect vital trade routes in the Indo-Pacific region and deter those who seek to undermine global security.”
Great! Hope they rush some of the weapons integration testing in the US to give us more options onboard this CSG.
I left the Navy and the Fleet Air Arm back in 2013. Life has been very good since. But I am very envious of those young men and women who will be working on that flight deck with those incredible machines. A genuine world class and lethal capability.
Well Said
Yes, superb to see. I think this coming Bank Holiday Monday included in the VE Day 80 fly past will there be F35 aircraft. Also I can imagine there will be F35’s for the Trooping the Colour fly past, such careful planning, impressive.
Unlikely to see F35s flying over London. I remember Harriers were never allowed because they have single engine power plants. The F35 is the same that fails over a populated area and bad things will follow
Yeah, the Red Arrows have to be temporarily equipped with an extra engine when they do a flypast over buck house…..
They’ve flown right over Buckingham Palace on quite a few occasions. Here’s the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee flypast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHJ9oSn6U7g
I did just read there are plans for F35’s over London – Included in the flypast. Will see..
F35s have flown down the Mall on other occasions.
Mike, Hurricane, Spitfire, Harrier, Hunter, F35, Hawk, need I go on ?
Yeah….whatever. :/
They have done so in the past. Both Harriers and the F35.
Crappy news for two of the three members of the BoB flight.
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Yes, we now have a staggering capability way superior to any other country on the planet, Rule Britannia.
That’s not what posters are saying.
They’re pleased to see a carrier with a good number of assets on it.
It’s World class and an incredible capability, you need to show more pride, stop being so negative.
On the NE approach to London.
Hey Daniele.. Happy Sunday to you. Yes, I’m very fortunate in that the flypast for London goes over the field at the back of my house. Seeing the Typhoons and F35’s plus other aircraft with the powerful sound they make is just amazing. I always remember the RAF 100 flypast – Incredible seeing all of the Typhoons together.
Hi John!
You’re lucky.
Are you on the approach from the NE or where they disperse to the west?
I’m in leafy Surrey, the Fast Air doesn’t come here but the Helis do, like with RAF100.
Hi Daniele.. Yes, I’m on the approach from the NE. Watch the aircraft fly over the back, then quickly nip back in doors to see them fly over Buckingham Palace on tv.
That’s incredible, you have a field at the back of your house in London ?
There’s tonnes of green spaces in London you know? Hacnkey Marshes, Walthamstow Wetlands, Wandstead Flats, Wandstead Park, Alexandra Park. Hell even when your in the centre you have places like Weavers Field and Lincoln Inn Field.
Well I heard of Wimbledon Common as a kid, but as I got older, I realised the Wombles were not actually real.
Who cuts all the grass and milks all the Cows ?
They are real.
I was born there. Seen them. 🤪
Oh, I stand corrected then… I know the Clangers are real though.
A dream come true Robert. I have been waiting for this as you know. Great to see.
Hi Geoff. Been a long time coming.
Yes.
RB, I finished 1995(25years done) and agree totally. FlyNavy 🇬🇧
Will the rearguard 6 f35’s be another sqdn?? He says hopefully.👍🕳️🙃btth.
Seems extravagant where money is no object. Having an aircraft carrier is not really enough for Uk to defend itself. Is it? Remembering history of WW2 when we had to beg uncle Joe to save us from Hitler.
Given the capability of the F-35B this is quite possibly Britain’s most powerful deployment of AirPower at sea ever, not just this century.
The British Pacific Fleet, off Japan Aug 1945, had 9 aircraft carriers, 6 Replenishment carriers, 3 ferry carriers, 4 battleships, 7 cruisers, + destroyers, frigates, submarines & a large fleet train.
This surface group and air wing has more lethal power than that, albeit fewer numbers
You have to judge it to what hostile forces had in each time period. Against Japan in 1945, the British Pacific Fleet was the greatest RN force ever. Todays CSG looks feeble in comparison to 2025 Chinese forces. Until the new T26 arrive & F-35 get some heavy stand off weapons (LRASM, JASSM-ER, AARGM-ER, Rampage, LORA, Storm Shadow or its replacement) the British fleet looks weak in comparison to its likely adversaries.
The two current in service Chinese carriers are jokes, as are the planes they carry, time will tell what the new one will be like but it’s far from operational right now.
Volume. The Chinese have vast numbers of missiles, ships & aircraft. If some are “tofu dreg”, it does not matter that much, as the numbers are still vast.
Wikipedia says the 1945 RN Pacific Fleet had 21 carriers and over 750 aircraft. If they all attacked our 2025 CSG all at once giving our F35’s no time to rearm then we simply coudn’t shoot down that many. In fact we might not be carrying that many missiles even if we did get the time.
However, if we look at the whole group, then our F35’s could find their fleet and our Astute could sink their carriers first then allowing our F35’s to drop all the bombs we have on anything else. Even then I don’t think we have enough ammo to sink the entire 1945 fleet.
Interesting scenario.
Could our carrier group at present defend against 750 WW2 jets?
I’d say yes, because even after getting through the F35s by sheer attrition, they still have to close within Phalanx range to drop bombs or torpedoes. There are 400? air defence missiles across the CSG, each of which will probably have near 100% pK against an aluminium propeller plane.
Plus 6*18*(number of sorties) air to air missiles on the F35Bs, after which they can attack the old carriers with impunity.
If we face a Ukraine/Gaza situation where there are large numbers (200+) of drones, cruise & ballistic missiles coming in, we could knock down the first wave, but we would struggle with second & third wave. F-35B could do with more Asraam, 2 is not enough. 4 or six would be better. Plus the gun pod. T45 will be better when it finally gets the extra CAMM.
@ Tim and SailorBoy the thing with the BPF is that of those 21 carriers, 11 where Escort Carriers away from the main fleet with small air wings protecting shipping from Submarines, and 2 where Maintenance Carriers that where floating repair bases with no strike capability. The main striking power of the BPF was the 6 Fleet Carriers and the 5 Battleships (the remaining 4 carriers where Colossus class light carriers with smaller airwings, where late arrivals, and operated separately from the rest of the BPF).
“Realistically” the Modern RN probably wouldn’t be able to sink the entire BPF, in one go, but it wouldn’t have to. A big strike that knocks out 5-6 Fleet Carriers and puts down most of the Battleships would basically end the BPF as a fighting force.
Also, WW2 Torpedo Bombers have similar characteristics to a Wildcat Helicopter, in terms of size and speed. So imagine a Wildcat trying to torpedo a modern warship, but with a torpedo that had to be launched from within Phalanx Range and you’ve got a good idea of just how survivable that would be.
Lastly, something neither of you seem to have considered. HMS Queen Elizabeth (the modern Carrier) is a 75,000t ship. The closest WW2 equivilant in size was IJN Yamato (65,000t). Now Yamato was more heavily armoured than a QE carrier, but the amount of firepower the US Navy had to deploy to actually sink it is instructive:
Over the course of three seperate attacks Yamato was hit by at 9 500kg bombs, and had several narrow misses that damaged her further, and 13 Torpedoes before the ship sank. All well and good to say you’d have to overwhelm the defences of the carrier group, but you’d also need to overwhelm the carrier itself.
Correct John.🕳️🙃 btth
Absolutely spot on, no country has ever projected so much power.
The Americans have 10 aircraft carriers all bigger than ours… All of their surface combat ships and subs carry tomahawk missiles (none of our surface ships do) They project a lot more power.
But we Brits are the best in the World, we do war so much better than the colonials.
0-2
Everything is contextual … the RN today is a weak organization compared to other major naval powers. The fact that this task group of five RN/RFA vessels constitutes virtually everything that the RN is capable of sustaining forward deployed, is the the real story of this deployment. There is absolutely no comparison of that reality with the RN of the 19th Century.
19th Century RN wouldn’t stand a chance against these 5 ships and their aircraft (or did you mean 20th century ?)
The 18th, 19th and 20th century RNs were real navies … there is no comparison with today’s purely symbolic deployments.
So you did mean 20th century then ! It’s ok, i worked out what you were trying to say.
I must point out that a Single QE is way more powerful than the entire combined fleets of 17th, 18th and 19th century Carriers and a single F35 would shoot down every single aircraft they could launch.
Thats not actually true, the CSG is under armed, which weapon system deployed, would you think would make much of a dent on a QE class battleship? Yes, there is probably an SSN, but only one and even with a 100% hit rate and assuming every hit was a 1 shot kill, you still come up short
In fairness a couple of NSMs or Harpoons would do a number on a QE, ASuM was a big reason for the decline in Battleships post war as they’re very hard to armour against.
The penetrating warhead version of Paveway IV?
Especially if the laser guidance can aim for weak spots like turret roofs or rings.
And no battleship is very effective without a main battery director.
Fantastic a2a capability. if only the F35 had strike weapons to match the airframe capabilities that could be used against a peer. Would have been great to have numbers as originally planned so a descent capability would remain in UK while CSG is away.
And that will come as the fleet grows.
No…not ss fleet grows…as software and integration allows. If nothing else the F35 programe has demonstrated the need for either proven technology from others or retention of sovereign evolution capability. ..what is new estimate for SPEAR3 integration….2033. 21 years after selection of LM.
If your comment related to numbers rather than Strike weapons then even additional deliveries in coming years will facilitate what…1 operational squadron at home. Original plans wrre for at least 120 ordered by 2012….delivered by 2017..possibly rising up to a max of 150..
As has been discussed ad nauseam on this prestigious blog, whole books could be written on who is to blame for Britain’s current military weakness.
We are now despatching HMS Prince of Wales to the Indo-Pacific region in a “show the flag” exercise. Only two – yes only two – British escorts will accompany her, the Type 23 ASW frigate HMS Richmond (which has recently had the anti-ship NSM fitted) and the Type 45 air defence destroyer HMS Dauntless. I doubt that the Astute boat reported to accompany the CSG will risk transiting the Red Sea and Bab al-Mandab Strait
PoW will rely on Canadian, Norwegian and Spanish warships (one from each, provided the Spanish frigate ESPS Mendez Nunez turns up) for defence of the CSG 25 Deployment. And not even a Fleet Solid Stores ship for replenishment.
CSG 25 is demonstrating to the world how weak Britain has become, regardless of how many F35B warplanes she has embarked.
There is another t45 and a T23 available for tasking right now so your argument doesn’t stack up. Do you have any indication or evidence that we can’t send these ships on CSG25? If you do it would be good if you could share it because there is nothing I can find.
The entire point of CSG25 is to show non US NATO capability to deploy to the pacific. So if we send four escorts what role do you expect others to play?
How do you expect smaller navy’s like the Dutch, Canadian’s or Norwegians to participate in such exercises. If they sent an escort along with a US task force doesn’t his mean American is somehow useless?
There are two more T45 that are reasonably deployable and two very much in pieces. With one, Daring, in the ‘no idea when she will deploy’ basket.
STOROBing Daring to the extent that she was – utterly crazy.
STOROB is simply insanity in any situation baring extreme need.
The only way of avoiding STOROB in situations like that is having a warehouse full of parts or keeping lines setup so that can be produced.
As ‘just in time’ with zero cash tied up ruled KO the actuarial accountants actually destroyed serviceability and deplorably. It also costs far more to strip parts from A -> B as some get damaged in the swapping making things even worse.
The only way of avoiding STOROB in situations like that is having a warehouse full of parts or keeping lines setup so that can be produced.
As ‘just in time’ with zero cash tied up ruled KO the actuarial accountants actually destroyed serviceability and deplorably. It also costs far more to strip parts from A -> B as some get damaged in the swapping making things even worse.
Indeed, sometimes capital investment is needed in supply and stores… pretending your saving money because you have cut your logistics costs but built in massive risk and actual inefficiency is something that accountancy lead “efficiency” always seems to do…I saw it in the NHS so many times… a profound lack of understanding of the specialist areas seems to have been the king of efficiency in the modern age.
Yes, the RN could assign other assets, but that leaves other commitments bare.
We once would have done this while having the Armilla Patrol, APT(N) APT(S) FRE, TAPS, and other assets as well.
The Escort fleet has shrunk from –
40 to 35 ( Front line First 95 )
35 to 32, then 31 ( 1997 SDR )
31 to 23 ( SDR 2004 New Chapter, impact of 3xT23 cut then result of T42 drawdown from 11 ships replaced by 8 then only 6 T45 )
23 to 19 ( 2010 SDR )
19 to 14 ( result of Tory incompetence leaving the fleet to collapse as they didn’t get on and order newer ships sooner.)
All at the hands of consecutive Tory, Labour, Tory, Labour governments.
It should be a national scandal. It isn’t, as not enough people care or even realise as defence has not been high up on their agendas.
Which is why I sneer at the sight of Starmer Healey on POWs deck….I loathe the lot of them, and those two have already taken their pound of flesh with the LPDs and Waves.
I agree.
It will be interesting to see what surface fillet Robertson comes up with.
I be pretty sure 30+ escorts.
Next question is how does that get achieved with a sensible budget.
The redefinition of MRSS is one clue as I think these will absorb the T32 role.
I think we will see a small follow on order of three T31 as that is the sort of money that can be found.
The next thing is are the new MCM motherships combatants?
It is all very well buying civilian platforms and modifying them for RFA with a grey paint job – fine for home waters – they don’t have the DC to go in harms way.
Yee, it seems to be the way they might head to increase escorts.
It’ll fool most the public.
I agree reT31 and MRSS.
Motherships have gone very quiet, was to be 4 I believe.
yes I would say MRSS will very much cover the patrol frigate/ autonomous vessel mothership in higher risk areas ( with 57mm and 40mm guns, CAMM and NSM).
From the mood music it also sounds that there may be more T31 orders
so I’m betting on the 2030s major surface combatant fleet looking like:
8 T26
6 MRSS
7-8 T31
6 T45
2-3 T83
I suspect type 83 will be a very limited build 10-14,000 ton all singing very high end all signing all dancing AAW ship with T45 extended into the 2040s and finally replaced by a second tier 7000 ton AAW destroy.
That would be a way to move to a 30 escort fleet, it would move back to 8-9 AAW platforms ( which is what is needed) and will provide 6 large surface combatants that are optimised for carting around lots of Autonomous platforms for littoral patrol.
The big weakness is ASW as the RN really needs to have reasonable hull sonar on the T31
Actually the nadir of capability of RN may have alrea passed in terms of capabilities. Seventh Astute SSN scheduled for launch in 2026. Updated Spearfish torpedo in acquisition. SSN maintenance infrastructure issues scheduled to be resolved by 2027. T-45s scheduled to complete PIP by 2028, and Sea Viper Evolution/CAMM insertion in progress. T-26/T-31 builds underway, w/ commissioned ships from 2028. NSM mor in progress, albeit slowly. FSS in planning/design and funded. Order for a second tranche of F-35Bs probable, post SDR and/or 2027 budget uplift. However, the quote of the Duke of Wellington does indeed ring true: “It was the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life.” The just-in-time philosophy of HMG/MoD has a significant historical context/precedence.
…NSM… precedent. 🙄
If we wanted 30 escorts, the cheapest way would be to just keep building T31s at maybe £400m a year. We’d have 30 escorts by about 2042 and could start selling off old ones as new ones came in. But could we crew that many? Maybe, if we work hard on automation, but I still have my doubts. There doesn’t seem to be the any commitment to increasing military personnel numbers.
As Jim always says though, one T45 is more powerful than the whole FI War fleet and one F35 is way more capable than all the Harriers at the time. We don’t need anymore of either now.
I know your attempting sarcasm but the reality is one T45 is far more capable than the entire T42/T22 fleet in air defence and one F35 is much more capable in terms of targeting at air and on the land than the entire harrier force we deployed in 1982.
However the threat has moved on as well as our capability and now even Yemen rebels have access to SAM’s and anti ship ballistic missiles.
To be fair to Starmer and Healey- they are only viewing a Royal Navy bequeathed to them by the buggering Tories.
If SDSR adds a few more type 26 or type 31 frigates so the escort fleet is increased and provides clear commitment to SSNr and uplifting the attack sub fleet back up to 12 or 15 then I think we will all be eating humble pie.
The Tories left an absolute mess for the Labour government to try to resolve at a time of financial pressures, the Donald tearing up international trade and our enduring commitment to support Ukraine in their battle for freedom and democracy. The headwinds against the Labour government should never be forgotten, the facts are clear. It is the Tories that are to blame for the current lack of escort warship numbers.
It is….apart from the 12 Escorts Labour cut previously….they all count.🙄
@ Daniele I think it’s fair to say Labour cut 9, cut the AAW destroyers from 12 to 6 and flogged 3 of the T23s off
@Jonathan
You’re forgetting post 97 when they removed the last of the T22 Batch 2s.
There were 35 Escorts pre 97 SDSR.
There were 23 when Labour left.
Namely….
HMS Boxer.
HMS Beaver.
HMS Brave.
HMS London.
HMS Sheffield.
HMS Coventry.
All cut around 1999 time frame, as Labour’s first reduction of the Escort fleet before the 3 T23s went later and the T45s reduced to 6.
@ Daniele
I suppose I always consider the T22 Batch 2s as proper planned reductions due to the end of the Cold War, there was no plan to ever replace them and in the end they were cut about 3-4 years before the end of there normal life anyway.
In the end post the Cold War the numbers always had to be cut between 1991 and 2000 that was inevitable and required ( we did not need to keep Cold War spending ).
But the planning assumption before 96-97 was to stabilise at around 32 major surface combatants and the 96-97 review confirmed that. 12 AAW, 10 ASW and 10 GP.
So I sort of consider that as 20 frigate and 12 AAW as the baseline for a peaceful mono polar world for measuring actual cuts below required level between 1991 and 2010.
So for me I consider the lost 6 destroyers and 3 lost T23 actually damaging cuts…
What complicates how I judge decision making is also the changing geopolitical situation from 2010..so I sort of grade the cuts on risk and general stupidity using that context as well.
So from 1991 to 2010 I would not consider anything above the 12 destroys and 20 frigates required as a cut.
2010 2015 actually saw a step change in risk and we should have seen a review of the required major surface combatant fleet up, probably needing a plan to grow an extra 3-6 escorts .so any cut in that period below the 12 and 20 was utter funking insanity.
From 2015 to 2022 I considered the geopolitical situation to be heading back to a cold war and the planning in that period should have been to moving the fleet up around 40
By 2022 it was clear were were in a more unstable place than the Cold War and in a pre world war situation, the assumption should have been a return to the Cold War 45+ fleet.
So I do very much consider what is a cut in regards to context and likely future context and not what had been before..which is not the best judgment of a cut.
@Morning Jonathan.
When is a cut a cut, or not a cut?…..
As far as I’m concerned the fleet had settled on 40 post OFC before Major in 95 cut it to 35 then Labour carried on.
They use that terminology when all the “sunset capabilities” went recently.
@Daniele, I always find defence post 1990 to 2000 fascinating because it is pretty unique in history.. essentially the Cold War was a war, a 45 year long war that was mainly fought across the political warfare spectrum’s, but also went hot… it completely misshaped the military industrial complex for the while 20th century .. and essentially meant the complex built up from the WW1 and then WW2 never got fully disbanded, so essentially the world had suffered from being an armed military camp for around 70 years suffering essentially permanent warfare or fear of existential war… what is then even more interesting about the Cold War is for the first time in history the winners essentially faced a unipolar world with no enemies left that could be considered peers or threaten them .. this has never happened in human history.. even the winners of major existential conflicts still had peer enemies ( the British empire after defeating napoleon, the winners of WW1 and 2.. all still faced peer geopolitical opponents and massive geopolitical and geostrategic tensions that limited their disarmament .. in 1991 NATO faced no peer enemy and yet was the the strongest military power in the history of the world.. the simple fact was after the fall of the USSR in the very early 90s NATO could have faced every other nation and power block on the planet twice over and still won…through complete domination of air and sea as well as the ability to project and concentrate land power as well as simply owning 60-70% of the worlds wealth… but it could not just crash disarm.. so essentially 1991- 2000 became a weaning off of the military industrial complex.. but what also happened in the 1991-2000 was a profoundly dangerous geopolitical paradigm shift in the west.. the rise in the idea the west had not just won a war and needed a sensible disarmament but had won history.. therefore no further threat could exist and no further existential war would ever occur ..” the end of history and the last man” thus this powered the need to reduce the military industrial complex in the 1990s to an almost delusional geopolitical geostrategic view in the 2000-2022. The idea it was irrelevant what defend a western nation had because the west had won took hold .. this was re-enforced by the collective nature of NATO.. so the sensible ( and probably to slow) cuts in the 1990s moved to labour in the 2000s inappropriately sacrificing capability to pay for western lead nation building in the middle and far east.. and in 2010 the delusional inability of western nations to see the world had turned, the west had not won history and its opponents were back and growing and instead it cut again… for “ financial stability purposes”… then in the late 2010s and early 2020s its still refused to come away from the disillusion.. even in 2022 as the wolves started testing the delusion held.. even now when the western alliance is crumbling the delusion of the “ end of history holds”.. because despite overwhelming evidence almost no one really “believes” china is like going to attack and start a war with the US or that china actually has a reasonable rout to winning that war.. because the delusion still holds.. the west will win.. so even now the west nibbles away at its capabilities.
The Albions are vital tools that should never be lost without immediate replacements ready. 19 escorts was demonstrably too few for RN peacetime commitments. To have slid even lower is treacherous disgrace.
Not Sarcasm, I just agreed with you and your previous statements on here, I think you are a spot on bloke, keep up the amazing work.
Ok sorry then I mis read.
Meanwhile you doomsayers bury your heads in the sand when other countries do similar things. Earlier this year the Italian navy sent a “carrier strike group,” to East Asia consisting of only the light carrier Cavour (with an air wing of half F-35s and half Harriers) and a single FREMM with just 16 Aster missiles for defense. The French also has their CDG CSG just return from the Indian Ocean which featured 1 supply vessel, 1 Horizon and 1 FREMM – the same numbers and types of assets we are sending yet everyone hailed that as a show of French hard power, the exact opposite of what people are now saying about the PoW CSG. When China sails their carriers they frequently only have 1 frigate and 1 destroyer shadowing it, no complaints from you same people again when that happens.
It’s almost like you have an agenda.
Italy had another FREMM in Red Sea and a PPA in the Gulf plus another PPA in Pacific.
Brilliantly said, a breath of fresh and realism to many of the posters on this site.
We sat times have supplied escorts to US carrier groups its very normal to have NATO allies escort a carrier, at least she now does have AEW in 3/5 working Crowsnest helicopters and full aircraft wing. It not a half arsed deployment its done properly.
Agreed. There are plenty of agendas within Social Media in the UK.
Here, I think posters are mostly just lamenting the lack of escorts, though some question the need.
I fully support the deployment.
Hi M8, I’m actually not in that camp, yes more RN escorts would be nice but not absolutely essential. We aren’t going anywhere that we don’t have lots of friends who just love exercising with our CSG.
It’s impressive having a QE with a full Alpha Wing onboard and I would kill to see her enter port with a full on, proper old fashioned deck filling display. But that’s it as far as F35’s are concerned the cupboard is bare, they have limited offensive capability and what the hell do if they actually have to engage anyone ?
What concerns me far more is the complete lack of Munitions replenishment at Sea, unless we fly them out to a very friendly port and crane them onboard we have what we have stowed, that’s it. We have had the QE’s for 5 years now and no way to replenish their magazines at sea, Fort Victoria is …….. and the FSS replace to are 5/6 years away.
Nothing it seems can get the U.K Treasury to budge on buying anything, we are due an SDR in June so any new purchases are still years away (and we are at the back of most queues). Fact is that in the past 38 months since the Ukraine was invaded we have ordered precisely zero new or extra major kit. No extra ships, boats, MPA, Helicopters, combat aircraft, AFV’s, Artillery, Airlift, Tankers, AEW, GBAD ETC ETC ETC. ZERO, ZILCH.
Compared to that so what if we only have 2 surface exports !
Hi mate.
You’re right, not aware we’ve ordered anything this decade beyond what was previously announced.
The point is that if you lose one of the escorts you lose either area air defence(T45 with Aster) or decent ASW capability(T23 with quietened hull & towed array sonar). The Canadian & Norweigen escorts make up partialy(Both have ESSM SAMs which are far shorter ranged than Aster 30s on our T45s) for this defficiency, but the RN should be large enought to provide the basic minimum cover with allies a welcome extra.
The accompanying Astute is the primary ASW asset.
The primary air-defence weapon of the CSG is the air-wing of F35s.
I thought RFA Tidespring was sailing with P.O.W
The UK should take advantage of having friends and allies as it is one of its strengths. Why insist on paying the restaurant bill all by yourself when friends are offering to contribute? The recent French and Italian deployments to the Indo Pacific region followed a similar structure but were less ambitious than the Royal Navy 2025 carrier deployment.
Agree, the most important target of CSG25 is US public opinion and the Chinese Communist Party. Demonstrating a broad coalition of capable NATO nations is what is required.
I think the Tangerine Tinted ‘Stable Genius’ is the most important recipient of this message?
The three carrier deployments France/Italy/UK do demonstrate an ability to generate and project power.
I marvel at how much Italy does for such a tiny budget. As others have said no DNE and little overseas basing is why the money goes further.
There are a few other reasons..
1) a state owned shipyard that essentially gives the Italian state mates rates.. 600million for a 7000 ton fully quite hull with towed sonar, high end long range ABM capable radar, with long range and ABM AAW missiles, land attack missiles and ASW missiles + light weight torpedoes…. The RN would pay a billion for that from a UK shipyard.
2) the state has undertaken a very steady rate of ordering from shipyards so there is a steady rate.. since 2006 Italy has essentially ordered laid down or build 23 6000-7000 major surface combatants.. and it continues to do so… that’s before it’s OPVs, assault ships and carriers. This helps the state run shipyard keep costs down
3) because the starter run shipyard is always producing escorts it’s easy for Italy to sell of the production line. Because there is a steady drumbeat.. the Italian navy can even work the ship up for the customer…
The Italian navy focus of general purpose, defuse capability and mass over exquisite capabilities, but still produce a small number of exquisite platforms… but all platforms must do everything. Every Italian major surface combatant can do long range area defence and every major surface combatant can contribute to the ASW screen.
The Italians have simply been able to build very very good multi purpose major surface combatants for 500-600million each and its just kept on churning them out at 1-2 a year no matter what..the UK has not.
4) A £ goes further in Italy than it does in the UK.
Exactly, this should put an end to Chinese aggression once and for all.
It’s a start
but still stronger than most? how many Navies can send a package like this the other side of the world – only the americans and maybe french/chinese
At the moment only UK, France and USA. China lacks the basing to do this. If China sends a carrier task force to the North Atlantic it will be almost impossible to sustain them as no one including Cuba will allow them to dock and Russian ports are highly restricted.
China has to send a supply vessel just to deploy a frigate.
Whilst a war is being fought in Europe let’s put the best part of our air force in one ship and send it to the far side of the world. We can escort it with half our navy.
The exaggerated fear of Russia doesn’t really fit with the decision to send our most advanced air assets to the other side of the world. If Russia is an imminent threat, keep all forces closer to home. A CSG to the far north would be more logical. If Russia isn’t an imminent threat, then we should stop using it as the main argument to increase the defence budget.
Although, in the still unlikely, scenario that war does break out with Russia whilst CSG 25 is deployed, don’t forget that we live on a globe…. and Russia is actually very close to Japan…
Only half of the T35’s are going and no Typhoons, not sure if you were aware of the numbers of fighters we have ?
RAF fighters are more than capable of meeting any threats the Russians might send and we have dozens of RN ships in various ports all over the UK too.
Way too many posters putting this country down on here.
You’re overlooking the fact NATO isn’t at war with Russia, despite what Putin claims. If something kicks-off Euro NATO is more than enough to stop Russia even without the CSG and its air-wing.
Pretty negative view on everything, as ive said previously why would we send other (not needed) assets with her with so much going on globally? It isnt going to war.
Other than a few houthi’s firing some RPG’s at it going through the red sea is not exactly a great deal of risk on the deployment.
Astute very unlikely to transit the Suez into the red sea but we may well have another one waiting on the other side, who knows.
If you think the Houthi’s are limited to firing off a few RPG’s then you must have been living under a stone for the last couple of years.Thanks to their Iranian backers they have a comprehensive array of Weapons to use as has been proved.HMS Diamond managed to shoot down a SRBM,hardly in the same class as an RPG.
Exactly – they’ve shot down 9 Reapers in the last 12 months. TWZ ran an article two weeks ago showing an unusual load out on a Growler with 4 x ARMs; so the USN must really see a threat.
It’s also worth reading the TWZ article a few days ago (23rd) on Houthi air defences. I found it an eye opener.
Sorry to burst your little bubble mate, but RN SSNs have always gone through the Suez when deploying to /returning from a Eastern deployment. That takes them through the Red Sea via the Bab al-Mandab Strait, you just don’t know they have gone through as they’ve gone through dived! Just saying.
But I heard they could only do this at high tide.
There are 2 ways through, one is much deeper than the other.
Is that the down hill bit ?
Ur 2nd comment – Yes!
Typical negative rubbish. No one is pretending we are the USN. But what other navy can do a deployment like this with more escorts? France like us had two on her recent deployment. Italy one. Also Dragon will be joining for a later part of the deployment and l think the Kipion frigate will also be part for a while. Of course we need more escorts but your comments are a bit of an insult to the men and women serving on these ships.
HMS Dragon is currently on work up training,and will participate in Excersise FormidableShield25,i can’t see her joining up with CSG25 at any stage.Maybe HMS Duncan will be back on station in the Med to meet them on their return.
Wasn’t an earlier PoW dispatched to show the flag? How did that go down?
With great reluctance after a hell of a fight.
It wasn’t sent to show the flag. It and HMS Repulse where sent on faulty intelligence to engage and combat a Japanese Amphibious landing. There was no intention of showing the flag and it was well known that they where going into battle, and that they where doing so in less than ideal circumstances as they where all that was available and air cover was known to be an issue.
Now this is good news.
Eyes were raised at the “16 Merlin and Wildcat” until I read further that the total includes Malloy and Puma Drones.
Still, 24 plus the Helis, we’d better get some good photo ops.
Any with crowsnest or did I miss that on the article?
Not mentioned, but inevitable I think that they’re included.
Was briefed by MOD. 3 Crows nests, 9 anti sub Merlin’s, 2 mk4 troop/ transport Merlin’s + some Chinooks, not sure how many Chinooks…maybe 2 or 3.
I did not think it did, there are 9 Merlins onboard and I thought 7 Lynx + three flights of drones. (I don’t know how many in a flight of drones)
Stop throwing sh. T at our navy.. We would all like more ships but we have always risen to the task in hand, God bless our men and women in uniform always. 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
We are in NATO its right that NATO ships defend the carrier, when in war would the Royal navy be on its own. That is whole idea of NATO. At times US carriers only sale with 1 or even two escorts when not formed in a carrier battle group.
And, almost always with at least one SSN, too.
I hope the defence review takes into account all the experts on here and their superior knowledge and use this opportunity to cut all the silly capabilities like MCM, Royal Marines, Puma replacements et al, with this ship and it’s F35’s, we just don’t need anything else. Time to get realistic and stop spending so much money.
Halfwit is cracking me up 🙂
It’s good to be able to comment, I came here a couple of weeks back but all my comments were being held for moderation. It’s a nice friendly place with some really great members, I love all of Jims stuff, the man has Incredible knowledge on all subjects, It’s a rare breath of fresh air to see such positivity amongst so many negatives.
Are you sure your not being sarcastic, you sound far too nice to be on here 😀
It’s good to be nice and I always like to give credit where credit is due. Years of FB and X have taken it’s toll but now I’m here, It’s like I’ve always been here.
It’s good to be able to talk to like minded positive people rather than the usual negative ones on the social media sites.
Well actually, Jim, I agree with Halfwit on this one thing, but don’t let it go to your head!!!
😂
To be fair you do know some stuff, just some dodgy political beliefs 😉
You start fcuking trolling people who have seen through you and your games on this blog, you know whats going to happen
No issues from me, go off, get the crews on a decent and enjoyable deployment, lots of training opportunities, hopefully they will get lots of shore time to visit places, and show the flag and capabilities at the same time. Would prefer a bigger UK flagged escort, but we don’t have enough remaining due to our previous crop of cowardly and incompetent politicians. But we are part of NATO, and we always deploy with allies in some shape or form, and this is no different. Great for the NATO allies crews as well, great experience all round. Crack on and be prepared for anything.
Very much this mate.
Good to see you.
Did I miss it? No mention of any Merlin Crows Nest here? I thought they had embarked 2-3 of those?
Merlin Crowsnest are still Merlin HM2s. They just stick the system on. They’re not dedicated helis like the Sea King ASCS of 849 NAS.
Maybe that’s why they’re not listed separately.
Thanks Daniele. Just gone through the whole thread here and seen others asked the same earlier.
The largest 5th gen squadron of planes on a aircraft carrier?? Firstly, they are not the largest and secondly most of the lightenings are from a US squadron with American pilots.
There is no US F35 squadron on this deployment. All aircraft are from RAF and RN squadrons. Perhaps you’ve seen an article relating to the HMS Queen Elizabeth deployment a few years ago when US Marine Corp F35 joined the group and got mixed up?
Somebody give im a shake,time to go on watch mate.👋🙃🕳️ btth
Firstly they are all British jets and British pilots, secondly it is the largest number of 5th generation fighters ever on an air wing..
Interesting that the USN hasnt managed to get 24 “C”s and the USMC hasnt managed to get 24 “B”s together on one deck yet.
Something about the RN to be proud of again. Its been a while…
The US LHD’s can only fit 20 F-35’s at maximum load, with typical combat loads being more like 6. So the USMC will never get 24 B’s on one deck. The USN could fit more, but because they usually have mixed wings of a variety of aircraft they are unlikely too get more C’s on deck any time soon.
They only plan for 1 squadron of 15 jets..that’s it for 5th generation..the rest will be 2 squadrons of f18.