British F-35B jets have joined British Typhoon jets in an effort to reinforce NATO air policing efforts in Eastern Europe.

RAF fighter aircraft are patrolling NATO airspace over Poland and Romania currently.

The Royal Air Force say here that the Lightnings from RAF Marham joined the Typhoon jets taking part in pre-planned Enhanced Vigilance Activity, “a NATO led Operation initiated due to the unfolding events in Ukraine. This activity provides air policing of NATO airspace ensuring a robust response to the Russian aggression seen in Ukraine and further contributing to the security of Europe”.

The RAF say they are currently contributing Typhoon aircraft, flying from both RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire and RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus as well as F-35 Lightnings from RAF Marham on the NATO Mission.

The Station Commander of RAF Marham was quoted as saying:

“The F-35 is an incredibly capable and versatile aircraft.  Operating alongside the Typhoons to maintain the integrity of the European airspace and contribute to the NATO Mission, the 5th Generation Fighter is a world beating fighter aircraft which can simultaneously provide Information Warfare, Intelligence gathering and Air-to-Air missions.”

You can read more here.

George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. He also works for the NHS. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 month ago

This may be an ominous development. The Lightning F-35B is a bomber/strike aircraft and as far as I can recall, 207 Squadron at RAF Marham only has 8. Apart from the blobspeak “pre-planned Enhanced Vigilance Activity” what are they likely to be used for?

Marked
Marked
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Don’t read too much into it. Firstly it’s a statement of intent, aimed at reassuring allies as much as Russia. Secondly its a perfect opportunity for a real world exercise in deploying these new jets, best time to learn on the job is while there’s no shooting going on.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

NATO for the first time activated their Response Force last week, this is the standing force each country maintains as a pooled NATO rapid response.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

HI Watcherzero,

I read somewhere that this force currently stands at 22,000 declared. This does not sound like many, but these are troops the Generals have direct control over, within rules of engagement obviously.

It represents a significant delegation of authority to the military command, not something politicians do lightly…

Cheers CR

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

No NATO rapid reaction for is 40,000 strong. 22,000 stand at rapid deployment readiness able to move in 12hrs-48hrs. The remaining 18,000 with 3-7 days.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

If a NATO country is attacked you would surely want a stealthy attack aircraft especially in the early stages to take out incoming armour and especially take out mobile missile batteries before you start sending Typhoons into danger, they would be primarily tasked with Air cover early on anyway. I would assume this would be standard tactics determining the breakdown and task of the two types.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Exactly.

I don’t see 8 x 5th gen with NATO backup as a small force at all.

8 F35B and 16 Typhoons, with backup, would tip the balance in the Ukrainian air war.

How many AA batteries, tanks and other bits do you need to shred before Vlad’s generals got the message?

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

Yes even 8 fifth generation aircraft backed up by a good number of top end 4+ generation aircraft would carve a huge hole in a 4 generation only airforce. The sensor fusion and ability of the 5 generation aircraft to see and communicate the situation and manage The 4+ generation aircraft offensive capability while leaving them safe is huge.

Last edited 1 month ago by Jonathan
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Exactly that

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

How many Ukrainian troops, civilians, towns, cities & villages have to die, get wounded, terrified, traumatised, ruined before we step in? How many lies & threats from Putin before we call his bluff?

dp
dp
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Do you have some desire to start World War III and risk billions of deaths? Ukraine war broke out in first place because Ukraine called what they thought was Russia’s “bluff”. Best not to do so again, yeah?

John Walker
John Walker
1 month ago
Reply to  dp

Wasn’t a bluff. Putin had been planning for this since 2014. If you track the build-up of Russian bases around Ukraine in Russia over the years you can see the massive build-up that only had one purpose of invading Ukraine. For NATO to be directly involved it would dramatically raise the chances of going very hot very quickly. If you have been tracking Russian stategic posture they have embraced doctrine of going nuclear very early as a way to descalate a conventional threat i.e. first strike. Putin knows his conventional forces are a hollow force and will rely on his… Read more »

Paul42
Paul42
1 month ago
Reply to  John Walker

And herein lies the problem, Putin has to rely on nukes, against which only a very effective ballistic missile defence system will do….

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  John Walker

+1

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  dp

Dp are you by any chance typing away with lies in the basement of the Kremlin? How and why do you think Ukraine called Putin’s bluff?
Russia not Ukraine is the aggressor here.
Ukraine took zero offensive military action against your mother Russia. Its a pity Russia cant let its neighbours live in prosperity and peace.
Glory to Ukraine.

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Nothing you have identified will trigger us stepping in to the Ukraine conflict. The Ukrainians need to do it themselves. I suspect that provided they get a steady supply of weapons & supplies from around the world this is possible. Putin is getting frustrated and dangerous and lots more innocent people are going to die but NATO forces are for NATO countries.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

I wonder what would happen if Ukraine’s airforce was based in Poland? So flew from Poland over their airspace.
Russia couldnt touch them without declaring war on NATO and the Ukrainian would be free to build up, train and resupply as needed.
Seriously think NATO should offer this as the most we can do short of a no fly zone.

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

That might be pushing our luck unnecessarily. Need to base the aircraft in the Ukraine but it could be in the West near a NATO border where they could be resupplied by road or by air.Would that keep us the right side of the line?

Grizzler
Grizzler
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

Easy statement to hide behind…as plenty of people have done.In the meantime we all hyprocritaly stand by and watch Putin destroy a democratic country then another then another and NATO tell Finland and Sweden they can’t join in case it upsets Putin.
Appeasement has always , and will always, have consequences.

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Grizzler

I think that Ukraine will win with a little help and I think Putin will be gone. That might just give the whole region a whole new lease of life. We need to help but we must leave the fighting to those fighting for their freedom.

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Personally, I would want them slotting RusMil COC as identified by our Rivetjoints.

And then work down the chain. Anyone steps up, you die.

Should cause a few hearts to quake

And resolution to shake.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

“what are they likely to be used for?” A very good question David Lloyd, gathering intel perhaps? it was never designed to be an air superiority fighter after all And Meteor on Typhoon will destroy anything Russia currently has available to them. “The planned entry into service date for the SPEAR-3 medium-range stand-off missile of 2025 is likely to slip to 2026 as there are limited resources available for the integration work. To a large extent, MBDA is dependent on Lockheed Martin’s software development prioritisation for integration projects, despite the UK being the sole Tier-1 partner in the F-35 programme.… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Rib N
Rib N
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

F35 can find targets for Typhoons with Meteor without being detected. The Meteor can then be fired without the Typhoon needing to use its radar. The Meteor can use 3rd party data to guide it onto the target. The target may or may not pick up the missile radar, but at M4.5 it will have little time to react. With a 60km no escape zone there is little chance for the target.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

With AMRAAM, ASRAAM, the superb APG81 AESA radar, all aspect stealth, and world leading situational awareness, amd ISTAR capability, plus digital helmet mounted display. It’s a very capable fighter.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

And LGBs to take out static things?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago

Yes, and moving targets. And electronic attack with its own radar. Early day’s still for F35, but It’s ISTAR capabilities are more like the capabilities of the E7 packed into a stealthy fast jet. The situational awareness it can generate and share is on another level.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

It is interesting that most contributors on here don’t appear to grasp the level of game changer having this stuff packed onto a number of fast jets and networked together actually makes. As you say never, mind having EW and stealth built in. With Radar2 Typhoon catches up on EW and general area awareness. Then you have the local F35As around as well. The Russian stuff may fly fast but I’m always dubious about the stated ranges as there are certain physical fundamentals you can’t change: drag being just one and weight of fuel the other! Speed on their airframes… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

Yes it’s not the individual capabilities of the aircraft ( which are on their own far better than any 4 generation aircraft) . It’s that one sees all see element. Allowing an offensive co-ordination that 4 generation Fighters on their own just cannot do.

Not that I want to see our forces have to fight, but there will likely be some very significant re-evaluation when a 5 generation led force meets a four generation force.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

How much of Russian airforce really is even 4th gen?

Analogue radios with dated hybrid radars?

Again updates that will have been lost to corruption……

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

Yes you do have to wonder and the fact is pretty much every Russian weapon system ( even the most modern ) are in reality based on dusted off and reactivated Soviet programmes. You just have to look at the SSN fleet that everyone talks about ,Yes it’s a threat that needs countering, any SSN does.But Even the Project 885 submarines now being build started life as a 45 year old Soviet programme. With Astute in reality being a twenty year newer design. So the project 885 Severodvinsk is probably closer to a trafalgar with the newer 885m are probably… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Jonathan
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

As for the helmets! “The initiative hit another hurdle when the first helmets came in: One component didn’t last as long as expected, causing Collins to partially redesign the OLED display, company spokesperson Megan Strader said. Collins resumed work on the improved helmets in October under a $20.7 million contract awarded to jet manufacturer Lockheed Martin. The company expects OLED will come standard on F-35 helmets starting in 2023. “Upon successful testing of this mature OLED design, the JPO will buy production and retrofit OLED capability firstly for the USN and USMC F-35C pilots, and if required, to the wider… Read more »

gen-iii_66441.jpg
Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Typhoon Worth reading in full. “The data is compared with the database of radar signatures stored in the Electronic Support Measures suite. Using this information the ESM allows the identification of the radar and thus the platform it is deployed from and presents it on a moving map or multifunction display producing a 360° threat picture around the aircraft including identifying targets and even their zones of lethality. This allows the pilot to fly around these zones to avoid detection or being engaged.” https://eurodass.com/praetorian/praetorian-today/ “The Eurofighter Typhoon has one of the world’s most advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) systems. This allows… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Big fan of Typhoon. I’m sure Radar 2 will be a huge step forward. But F35 has this capability today. Not in 6/7 years time. F35 has the capability and stealth to be used on night 1 of any conflict along with F22, B2, and cruise missiles. Typhoon would not.

Pete
Pete
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Other than launching storm shadow from over 560km out.

Pete
Pete
1 month ago
Reply to  Pete

Day one Typhoon stike utility that is…

Pete
Pete
1 month ago
Reply to  Pete

Could just hit murmansk naval facilities from northern Atlantic side of Norway with that.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

Paveway IV

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

That answers my question, Nigel. Many thanks.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

This should be our next priority.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/marte-er/

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

207 Squadron is the F35B OCU,617 Squadron is the only fully operational unit at present,with the Pool of Aircraft available im sure there is more than 8.

johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

we have currently approx. 14 Pilots ONLY. for 26 airframes, but 3 are only just delivered. 8 is squadron strength.

but no one will confirm that. as its a sore subject

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

Squadron strength is 12 jets and we cannot even reach that yet with the low number of pilots, given a few must be in the US. Do you have any idea as to how many typhoon pilots there are?

Tim Suffield
Tim Suffield
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

I think you need to do some homework before making stupid comments. The UK JLF ( Joint Lightning Force) is currently at 26 Air Frames. One being lost Nov 21 whilst taking off of HMS Queen Elizabeth. 3 Air Frames are with 17 Squadron in the USA for Test and Evaluation. Using simple maths that leaves 22 air frames available in the UK. Public records show 26 pilots were trained for the F35 in 2018.

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Tim Suffield

Simple maths actually leaves 23 in the UK as 27 F35B jets have been delivered to the UK so maybe you’re the one that needs to do some homework.

julian1
julian1
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

How do you know only 14? Even if 617 has only 8 jets, surely that equates to 12 pilots. 207 is running training courses – I’m sure it must have at least 6 pilots. And then those with 17R and those in training. Surely we have 20-25 pilots at least?

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

Your number regards Pilots is out – i have read there are more Pilots than Aircraft.

Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

At present, those Typhoons are more capable for strike than the Lightnings, frankly. F-35B in UK service is only cleared for Paveway IV, AMRAAM and ASRAAM, whereas Typhoon can carry Brimstone and Stormshadow in addition (maybe some others, but those are the main ones we use).
Think of the Lightnings as very expensive L/O CAP and spotters for the Typhoon force, or a decapitation strike at best (although Stormshadow is arguably the better choice for that too). Until Spear 3 and FC/ASW get integrated, F-35B is not the striker we need.

Sean the real Sean
Sean the real Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Bomber Strike ? Best to use an analogy to answer your statement . F-35 is a white pointer Shark and the Typhoon is an Fat American tourist with one of his floats deflated . Sorry guys but this forum has no IDEA what the F-35 really is .

bill masen
bill masen
1 month ago

I regretably see this as utterly ineffective sabre rattling, whilst thousands of european civilians are slaughtered AGAIN, just like in Bosnia etc Clearly no lessons about appeasement does not work, have been learned from WW2.
God help the Ukranians today and the Finns, Swedes and Moldovans tomorrow.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  bill masen

Hi bill, Justed watched the BBC lunchtime news and John Simpson was on the Finnish Russian boarder. Two things of real interest; 1) For the first time Finns are in favour of joining NATO; 2) There is a steady trickle of Russians apparently leaving Russia because they fear what is coming in Russia! I also read yesterday that Sweden now favours joining NATO. Putin has really miscalculated if he wanted to divide the West. Throw in the big increases in defence spending being declared across Europe and he appears to have united Europe in rearming to defend against him! Not… Read more »

geoffi
geoffi
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Do you think Putin cares ? He seems to have lost all sense of rationality..

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

“Two things of real interest; 1) For the first time Finns are in favour of joining NATO; 2) There is a steady trickle of Russians apparently leaving Russia because they fear what is coming in Russia! I also read yesterday that Sweden now favours joining NATO.”

I mentioned this only the other day on here, how odd. 

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  bill masen

As I have often stated where do we draw the line if despite a treaty we don’t defend Ukraine then why would Putin think we would Moldova and once that’s gone why would he think we will defend Finland and there’s the rub. If it goes that far with no response he will go into Sweden and there we have the problem that if we don’t defend this non NATO country we effective lose the war without an inch of NATO soil being touched. Sweden falls NATOs Northern flank can not be defended.Noway goes quickly the NE Atlantic becomes a… Read more »

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

What nonsense! Russia are struggling to invade Ukrain never mind march Finland and Sweden.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  OkamsRazor

There is that minor fact.

The Swedes and Finns may not have massive militaries but they are well educated, equipped and trained. They will also be very well motivated.

With the carp tactics and comms skills demonstrated Russia is rerunning WWII with marginally better kit. Well maybe not the radios!!

Tgat said I’d see them joining NATO after Mad Vlad’s exploits.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago

I don’t see Full NATO membership going ahead for both Sweden and especially Finland – which has a Long Border with Russia,this was Putin’s Red line regarding the Ukraine obviously.What i do see happening is’ Partner Nation’ status or something similar.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

Hmme

Well Putin has crossed a few red lines invading a European country?

We must contain him otherwise where/who next?

Can you imagine this devastation being unleashed so close to home?

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

We too have military power & a deterrent yet we allow Putin to wield his uncontested as if we had nothing. Tea & sympathy isn’t stopping the carnage.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Agree a polite reminder to Putin and his cronies that he is not the only person with nuclear weapons. Russian population need to be told that Putin is using nuclear threats against the world and the dangers are real. If he uses a single nuclear warhead NATO will retaliate with equal measure. No one wins a nuclear war. Therefore we cant be blackmailed.

dp
dp
1 month ago

Well, invading a former Soviet republic that at one point was the historical capital of greater Russia (little Moscow village came later). Some of the southern cities besieged are steeped in Russian imperial history – founded by Potemkin, Catherine the Great, etc. So maybe one can sort of see why a fanatic nationalist like Putin thinks of them as something different than, say, Sweden or Finland? Russian invasion is brutal and unjustified, and certainly the Baltic States and Moldova are indeed in real danger as well, but using it to revive the sort of Cold War domino theory of the… Read more »

ExcalibursTemplar
ExcalibursTemplar
1 month ago

“We must contain him otherwise where/who next?”

My money would be on Georgia then Armenia + Azerbaijan. The Russians can then link up with the Iranians and push through Iraq into Saudi Arabia and link up with Syria.

That would completely cripple the west as they would control most of the worlds oil.

Just look at a map Russia + China + North Korea + Burma + Pakistan + Iran + Syria. That’s most of Asia and all those countries do not like the west and would love to overthrow the current world order.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago

Not sure i agree – Georgia was dealt with in 2008,no need for Russia to go down that path again,as for Armenia and Azerbaijan Russia has good relations with both,it is a major Arms Supplier to both,it actually has substantial Forces based in Armenia and since the September 2020 War provides Peacekeeping forces in the Nagorno-Karabakh Region and was instrumental in the Ceasefire and end of War Negotiations.

ExcalibursTemplar
ExcalibursTemplar
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

I didn’t know that about Armenia & Azerbaijan, thanks for the info. As for Georgia from what I remember at the time. One of the main reasons Putin went into Georgia in the first place was for the tunnels through the mountains. So if it did ever kick of big time, Russia could steam roll into the Middle East from The Caucasus. Dam with him having Armenia & Azerbaijan on side it looks like the situation is even worse than I thought. Especially as I’ve just read that Russia was supposed to start mass-producing T-14 the start of this year.… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago

The T14 cant be any good otherwise they would be demonstrating its combat prowess in Ukraine. The reasons its not been deployed to drum up export orders is because Javelin and NALW would likely knock it out.
Its all bluster. Besides i dont think with sanctions they can afford massed T14 production.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

Ask Ukraine how that’s worked out for them so far. If we’d stated we’d send troops or airpower if Russia Invaded te invasion may never have happened or would’ve been stopped dead.
Western leadership is grandstanding. Lots of hot air. Probably more interested in buisness as usual than doing the urgent right thing.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

If NATO membership for Ukraine was unacceptable to Putin im pretty sure pre-positioning Troops or Air Assets there would have met with the same response -whatever Ukraine did Putin had this obsession with it that could only result in War.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

I don’t think anyone cares about Putin read lines any more, they are more interested in calling is bluff short of direct military support for Ukraine.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago

You make me laugh. Seriously after seeing how inept the Rusdian military is attacking Ukraine I can guarentee you that Finland and Sweden whilst concerned will not be losing any sleep. They have well developed and sophisticated militaries able to match Russia and defeat them until inevitable attrition kicks in. Finland and Sweden would not be fighting alone. UK, Norway, Denmark, Poland would support them.
Id be more worried about Romania and Bulgaria. They look vulnerable with inadequate poorly prepared and equipped militaries.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Which is why I wrote:-

“ The Swedes and Finns may not have massive militaries but they are well educated, equipped and trained. They will also be very well motivated.”

If the Russians tried a rerun of Ukraine in those countries they would be destroyed – not a nice image but a fair one.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  OkamsRazor

Spot on.

julian1
julian1
1 month ago
Reply to  OkamsRazor

Agreed, it seems shambolic and even if they do suppress Ukraine, at what cost men and kit? The men will be shattered and the kit worn out. The political damage, economic damage and decimated armed forces mean its unlikely he’ll be able to take on prepared opponents elsewhere. He will need hundreds of thousands of troops to hold down Ukraine and conscripts won’t cut it elsewhere. Of course he could totally lose his head and go nuclear everywhere.

dp
dp
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

Right. The best move in *cold strategic terms* is for the west to actually get a little less strident on the sanctions while continuing to supply military aid, and let Putin wreck his military in conventional war and then the cost of occupation, while at the same time Germany et al doubles or triples their defense budget. The world’s reaction and the cost of even a limited invasion well resisted should also send a strong signal to China of the risks of trying the same at Taiwan. Again, from a very cold, realist approach the WORSE thing we can do… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  dp

Bravo. At some point we need to ease off a tad, once the Russians have castrated themselves in Ukraine, which is underway.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  bill masen

To be honest Finland and Sweden are pretty easy, the U.K. and other simply depot the JEF and it becomes a NATO tripwire which would make the fact they are not NATO members a moot point, most of the JEF resources come from NATO members so if Russia attacked the force it would trigger article 5.

This is one of the interesting things that most people forget, it is sort of possible for one NATO nation to push its forces forward as a trigger point for the whole of NATO.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

I am afraid Ben Wallace May have made a blooper. After the president of Ukraine and deputy president have basically begged for a no fly zone to be enforced by NATO he has come out and said that would be a disadvantage for Ukraine and it’s about that as well as NATO entanglement with Russia. I can accept NATO is not willing to go to war with Russia and a no flu zone would effectively mean that. But to try and say there is anything else behind it, especially that it could effect Ukraines ability to defend itself just sounds… Read more »

Matt
Matt
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No flu zone 😀

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt

I am a health care professional 😂😂😂

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt

Can we have No Flue Zones at schools and workplaces?

Or was it a Harry Potter reference, to banning flue powders: I ask for my daughter?

Matt
Matt
1 month ago

On my keyboard the U is next to the Y.

With all this Eastern European and Russian stuff we need to go French and switch to AZERTY, so we can all find Z.

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Strictly speaking he is correct. Currently Ukrainian AD, given the virtual lack of any UkAF planes in the sky, can fire at anything that moves from their hide, fire, scoot and hide AD systems. Putting NATO aircraft in the sky would add a whole new complexity to their operation and would almost certainly put them at risk of friendly fire.

Pete
Pete
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

No need for a no fly Zone. Reality is Russian corruption, laziness and ineptitude in basic maintenance is bringing their efforts and advances on the ground to a grinding halt. The lack of basic routine is litteraly resukting in their kit grinding to a halt …and ultimately result in significant death on the Russian side. Enjoy the read.
https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499491477239566336?t=1P5YCWGe9VlOw5gjCrV_gA&s=07

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  Pete

Yes the potential flaw that might save us from my fears above. What Putin would like to do and what his army can do are not necessarily coherent. It’s mediocrity may be our greatest ally there is only so much you can do with their budget. Let’s hope even Putin gets that message though the trouble is it might make him even more likely to use tactical nukes.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Pete

If that chaps explanation is true, that is hilarious.

Mark
Mark
1 month ago
Reply to  Pete

It’s not just poor maintenance….the Russian conscripts are deliberately pulling the fuel tank plugs out so the run out of fuel and so cant fight a war they don’t want too. Most of them feel betrayed and lie to by there superiors they have no food rations and don’t want to fight. The only troops that are well supported are their special forces and paras. The rest were given a few days rations most of which were out of date.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Pete

Hi Pete, That is a really interesting read, thanks for putting it up. I hadn’t really appreciated how much kit was being taken by the Ukrainians, say a lot if farms can just turn up an d tow it away!!! Nor had I considered the point made about the IFF, no wonder the RuAF is not performing as stated… There were a a number of apparently undamaged SHORAD systems found by Ukrainian force a couple of days ago that were neatly parked off the road again with no crews around them. The Ukrainian (iiregulars I think) appear to then petrol… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

I don’t disagree as that’s beyond my knowledge only the Ukrainian armed forces would know what would benefit them. The concern I have that the Ukrainian government is begging for a no fly zone and we then say but they don’t really need one. It means one side or another is being incoherent or incongruent.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Yaaaaawn, ha ha ha hilarious. The only thing at risk will be the l100 hrs per annum RuAF pilots flying about with minimal combat skills and capability. Keep going troll biy this is hilarious.

Robert McKay
Robert McKay
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Ben Wallace is not a NATO spokesman

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Hes right, Russians havent achieved air superiority despite expectations. The Russian artillery outranges the Ukranian so air strikes are the only way to hit the Russian convoys from a distance. The Ukranians have also been using helicopters to reposition their forces. So there are advantages to Ukraine of not implementing it. But whatever happens the problem remains that NATO cant enforce it without attacking Russian troops on the ground.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Yes, I agree.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Hi Watcher, it’s not so much the right or wrong of a no fly zone ( I don’t think we can have a no fly zone). It’s more how it’s sounds and comes across when Ukraine is coming out and begging for a no fly zone and then for the U.K. Minister of Defence to then say they don’t need a no fly zone, they are better off without one sounds odd. It was fine to just say, we cannot do it due to risk of a general war between Russia and NATO. That is a fine reason on its… Read more »

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Hi, do we know if the supply of MiG 29 aircraft from NATO countries to Ukraine has stalled?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

Non starter. Was proposed by the EU and NATO vetoed it apparently.

Quite right too as the EU is not a military power NATO is.

I read their concern was it would denude those NATO nations of fast jets at the exact moment they would be needed to the higher alert status. New replacements would take a long time to arrive.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Hi Daniele, I think that is a shame, but failing that there is nothing stopping Eastern European countries from supplying parts and weapons to keep as much of the Ukrainian Air Force flying. Probably being done on a much lower profile basis.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

Where do the parts come from?

So if they given them to Ukraine and call Uncle Vlad to order some more what do you think the response might be?

Lack of spare mission kills a plane as well as a missile.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Hi Supportive Bloke, I’m no expert, but aren’t there unused MiG29s in Hungary that could be raided for parts? This can’t be the only example for possible spares in Europe or further a field.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

If they haven’t already been cannibalised?

Hungary is a funny country and might not want to totally burn bridges with Mad Vlad just in case.

Bear in mind most of the active ones elsewhere in Europe are kept flying by Russian maintainers! That might stop in which case the geometry changes….

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

I was also going to say America, as they purchased the MiG 29s from East Germany, The Slovak republic and Moldova. But so much time has passed useful parts would most likely already be harvested.

Very interesting about Russian maintainers keeping the East European fleets active. Again I might be showing my ignorance on such matters; but that seems to be a ludicrous position for those countries to be in.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

I think the Ukrainians want an attrition reserve.

Yes, the maintainers thing is crazy. But at the same time so is the parts thing.

Can’t imagine those aircraft being allowed to fly against Russia the GRU plant in the maintenance team would make sure of that?

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Totally bonkers the sooner all NATO members uses non ex soviet kit the better

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

It was the one thing that did make sense was Borrell understanding that this would cost cash.

I don’t think he understood how much it would cost or the training costs.

It is easy as UK, with a relatively huge economy, to say why can’t small country XYZ buy ABC. Then you realise that the one purchase alone would be a big % of GDP.

julian1
julian1
1 month ago

I heard that Eastern European AFs would use just this opportunity to start standardising on western built aircraft. Migs will be replaced by used F16s more likely

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

There will never be a better time for Eastern Europe to go fully F16.

julian1
julian1
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

Ukraine has traditionally overhauled alot of Russian built aircraft for different operating countries.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

Yes, it does have the indigenous capabilities.

A lot of the high end soviet metallurgy was based in Ukraine.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

Mr J Borel makes a fool of himself #3?

Guy is hopeless.

Now is not the time to be retraining crews to fight on another platform.

EU needs to stay out of things it doesn’t understand: defence being one of them.

julian1
julian1
1 month ago

They are NATO assets and not EU assets. Its an interesting point – NATO still trumps EU and even the EU countries recognised that. The EU is providing funds more military hardware supply to Ukraine. Are those supplies brand new or acquired, used equipment. I wonder what it will be

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago

Im not sure its veteod. I think its on the cards. Poland has 30 mig 29s in flyable combat ready condition. USA has offered to replace the Mig29s 1:1 with F16s which the Poles are already flying and love. So win win for Poland.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Yes seen on Twitter it’s back on. But from USA to Poland and not with EU involvement.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

And now reading it’s not, it’s fake news.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

Your ahead of me there!

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

Apparently back on now.

US is in talks to supply F16’s to Poland and Poland then releases its MiGs to Ukraine.

That at least makes sense as Poland can support F16……

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

It’s on; but can they actually make a transfer in time to make a difference?

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

The idea literally crashed and burned – it seems Josep Borrell was talking out of his backside when he suggested this,plus all the Countries that possessed the suitable Aircraft were horrified about the thought of having to give them up.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

Hi Paul T, I actually thought it was something that was doing. I wonder if more MiG 29 can be acquired from the world market for Ukraine? Actually while I’m typing this I’m thinking it would be close to impossible to do.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

All the MiG29 owners club were Russian client states.

How many of those states voted against Russia in the UN?

So the only sources you would have are the ones that voted against and have MiGs and want to sell them which is a subset of approximately zero.

That is why the idea doesn’t fly.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

I could only think of any possibly still used by the US with their Red Hats Sqn.
The US has acquired many migs by covert and overt means.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Yes, I was saying to Supportive Bloke further up the thread, US squired MiGs from the former East Germany, the Slovak republic and Moldova. But that was so long ago, those craft could be far from flyable today.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

We need to give air support to Ulraine, not ground their air force. Contest Russian air cover & strike their forces inside Ukraine.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Well the Ukrainians still have the majority of their aircraft operational, which is why the Russians have mainly switched to night flying. But they are running short of weapons to arm them with and Zelensky was appealing for exactly that just a couple of days ago. It would be great to see some of Ukrainian’s air assets destroying that column to the north of Kyiv. I think a general war could be avoided even with a no-fly zone by limiting action to Ukraine. The understanding that NATO doesn’t attack airfield etc on Russian soil and vice versa. The question would… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

I suspect the problem is western leaders cannot get a reading on where Putin will go. If they were dealing with a stable executive, they could plan in any response, on one knows how far Putin will go. He could quite possibly target ballistic or cruise missiles at western sites.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Putin is staying in power by copying gangster tactics. We should be wise to that. He has made a lot of enemies in Russia, destroying their careers to keep himself in front. If Putin stumbles over Ukraine, they will take their chance for revenge. It is down to the West to make sure Putin stumbles.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I wonder if here’s playing up the deranged megalomaniac to try and make his actions more unpredictable and NATO more wary of provoking him.
But he would know that if he extended military action to targets outside Ukraine then NATO would respond accordingly. Increasing the theatre beyond the Ukraine would be his decision, would he blink or not?

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Very possibly, but I don’t think you can rule out he is essentially out to lunch, there are a fair few people that have come to lead nations who were, I’m hoping for everyone’s sake he’s not one of these individuals who would prefer to see his own nation burned to the ground the lose power. At present he does have the initiative around moves he could make and NATO have sort of locked themselves into a we will defend NATO. Which leaves a few small none NATO, European and Asian nations that border Russia a bit out in the… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Well he apparently spent most of the pandemic in isolation, petrified of catching Corvid-19, so that might have unhinged him from reality a little. NATO has boxed itself into a corner with regards to taking action by telling Putin what he can get away with. I think you’re right, I doubt Putin had any self-restraint, and it’s an inevitability that he’ll push NATO too far so that they feel forced to respond. It might not be this conflict, but the next country he goes after. Personally I wonder how we can possibly stand by as he reduces every Ukraine city… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

The only reason we do stand back is fear. I suspect of NATO leaders though it would only stay conventional we would see an intervention. I think NATO leaders think Putin would go Nuclear and the unfortunate and truly said reality is If it’s the choice between saving Ukraine and Preventing a Nuclear exchange they will prevent the exchange ( it is after all the first duty of government to protect and defend a nation). My worry is Im seeing very few ways out of this for the west that don’t involve either a retreat and slowly be becoming second… Read more »

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

The problem with a no fly zone is you have the kill all the SAMs on the ground to make it safe to fly. That will involve killing Russian troops.
The are also a number of other reasons why it’s really difficult to do without killing Russians.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Hi Monkey Spanker –

No – despite what the American’s say, the SAMs don’t need to be attacked.

“No Fly Zone- the short pitch: UN authorised; defensive only; Article V suspended for NATO participants; engage hostiles inside Ukraine airspace/border only (not Crimea); Ukrainian air ops continue in de-conflicted operating areas”.
See retired RAF senior airman @gregbagwell

David
David
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Ukraine could not fly their own TB2 and other systems to see where Russian troops are manouevering. They could not use helicopters either
As Putin said earlier, he would consider it an act of war. Iskander missiles from Kalingrad would get fired at Nato bases taking part , then the gloves come off, and a port, airfield or army barracks gets nuked.
No thanks

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  David

Hi David, I’m not advocating for it, I’m commenting on the messaging and what it look like when Ukraine is begging for a no fly zone, and a U.K. minister then says not having one is for their own good….I sounds incongruous. I was happy with the reasoning we can’t do a no fly zone as it will trigger an immediate general war. That’s fine.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The West should man up & offer Ukraine a NATO guaranteed safe haven around Lviv. Putin would bluster, but attacking NATO would be a step too far for many around him.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

But the question John is would you bet your life and your families life on Putin Backing off, because that’s what NATO leaders will be betting ( all of our futures). I really is not a great time to be a European leader.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Putin modelled himself on Godfather & Tarantino movies. That is how his PR people project him. To him you are either a predator or prey. If we offer concessions, he will see us as prey & keep demanding more. We need to play his game. Say we will not lift sanctions until Russia gives up its veto at the UN, cuts its nuclear arsenal to no more than 350 warheads, hands Putin over to an International war crimes court. Russia did not nuke Afghanistan when they retreated from there. Do not fall for Putin’s bluff.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

The very scary truth is the Soviet Union and the Cold War was a far more stable time than we have now. The red lines were know, both western and Soviet red lines and resolve had been tested and found strong, the areas of allowable geopolitical strife and conflict were also clear. No one knows if Putin is bluffing, we don’t know his red lines and he had no idea of ours or if the west is bluffing. simple question if Putin put a nuclear weapon on London, what would we do ? 1) would the U.K. launch it’s CASD… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Fire the whole Trident boatload at Russia in return. Otherwise, we might as well scrap the deterrent.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Lol and that’s the fun thing. Does Putin think we will or we will not. It’s only a deterrent if he thinks we will and western weakness over the last decade my mean he thinks he can get away with things. In effect if you are going to a purist about CASD it’s mean to also deter Nuclear blackmail, but in reality that’s exactly what Putin has done to the west over Ukraine, or it’s all least what he thinks he’s done. So does that now mean he would be willing to take it a step further in the future.… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

In thinking this through I think the only real option for Ukraine is to do a deal with Russia to split the country and try and protect at least some of Ukraine. How well they can do that will depend on how much hurt they do to the Russian armed forces…but if they can keep it up I’m sure Putin will come to the table, but I suspect Putin. Will want to much so it’s unlikely. If they do agree to a partition ( which will stick in craw ) I think the west should offer immediate membership to NATO… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Jonathan
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  David

What happens if THAAD intercepts the missile(s)?

It is not a joke system.

And there is one or more in Poland (announced a few years back).

Does Mad Vlad have a stropski?

Louis
Louis
1 month ago

But it is very unlikely that it would intercept all the missiles, only one has to get through to cause devastating effects.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Ukraine are bombing the Russians and attacking with drones. That was his point the russsian Air Force is not doing much. It’s Russian artillery causing the problems.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Its more about what the Ukrainian government are asking vs the U.K. defence minister Is then saying they do not need it. That starts to give confusing messaging and sounds like excuses over reasoned decision around the best interests of NATO ( which needs to the the primary driver. Even though I feel very sorry for Ukraine)

Ron
Ron
1 month ago

So what aircraft are being deployed with the Prince of Wales as she is heading up North.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron

Probably none. We currently only have about 12 to 15 aircraft available to share between the RAF and the RN and it will be another three years at least before that improves, seven years after the QE. Even then they will have to be split between the services. I know the theory about they are joint service aircraft but this has always been nonsense.

Bill
Bill
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

The RAF should have got 35a’s but that would have meant ordering 100 aircraft in total to field 3 RAF and 3 FAA (35b) front line squadrons. If RAF pilots had wanted to land on ships they would have joined the bloody navy!!

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Bill

Exactly. Plus there are a lot of weapons that fit inside F-35A, that are too big to fit in F-35B.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Bill

With you on the numbers Bill although I don’t really mind if the RAF has A’s or B’s. Their choice. What we do need to do is ensure that both the RAF and the RN can operate the Lightning at the same time should the need arise.
What we are seeing now is a small example. The RAF wants the 35 in Eastern Europe so no aircraft for the Navy, or so few it would hardly be worth doing. In a serious conflict or war we would be in serious trouble.

Bill
Bill
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

And that problem is the procurement rate, something that I have been banging on about for too long! 2 operational squadrons in total will not be available until 2024. For a Tier 1 partner it’s pathetic. It literally boils my p*** having 2 aircraft carriers unable to put to sea with a full complement for years to come. And l do mean just ONE carrier.
Also, 2 new Typhoon squadrons must replace the ones being binned years ahead of there time, now. Fat chance of that!

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Bill

You and me both Bill. I keep plugging the argument here and elsewhere and often get shot down because of it . How we can build two of the biggest carriers in the world and the have a dozen or so planes , not only for them but for the RAF as well, is laughable. By my reckoning we’ll have enough F35’s for two or three squadrons of eight or ten aircraft, fully equipped and pilots trained up by 2026/2027 if we’re lucky.
Agree with on the Typhoons as well but I won’t put my bet down.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

I think the problem is that early F-35 were expensive & not very good. As time goes by, they get cheaper & more capable, hence the delay in building up numbers.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

It’s fair to say that a 35 is today about 20 per cent cheaper than say five years ago but if he ordered more together the price would have been similar to now. Our problem is always one of never seeing the job finished. Lightning, Type 45 , strike brigade, no strike brigade, Boxer ,no Boxer…. oh Boxer again the list keeps going.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Bill

A much bigger order then 100 F-35’s, for a split buy. But the RAF be unable to refuel the F-35A’s with the present A-to-A contract.

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Meirion X

USAF has tankers in UK.

Steve R
Steve R
1 month ago
Reply to  Bill

To be honest more like 180 aircraft would be needed to for an effective A/B split buy.

– 4x F35A squadrons (48 planes)
– 4x F35B squadrons (48 planes)
– 2x OCU/1 large mixed OCU (24 planes)
– 2x OEU/1 large mixed OEU (6-8 planes)
– 25-30 spare F35A airframes
– 25-30 spare F35B airframes

Could get away with 3x F35B squadrons for the FAA I suppose but still a bare minimum of 150-160 overall, all in service simultaneously.

johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve R

Split how ever you like until the RAF can train a F35 Pilots in under 2.5 years, numbers are always going to be low. currently there are 14 in total with 3 in the states. others are still some 2 years away. failure in the training program is highlighted in the NAO reports

Bill
Bill
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

We have 22 F35b’s at present with more than double that in trained pilots.

Bill
Bill
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve R

I’d be happy at this point with the original 138 for both services!

Steve R
Steve R
1 month ago
Reply to  Bill

I agree. In fact I’d be happy with an even 100; that could give us 4 squadrons, an OCU, and enough spares to replace battle losses or even surge to a 5th squadron if SHTF.

It would have to be just the B model, though. The 180 number I gave was what the minimum would be for a credible A/B split force.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron

Helicopters.

The way I see it, the F35 capability is seen as more useful to NATO ( at this moment ) flying from land bases than from the airfield that is the QEC Carrier.
So our assets slot in where they are most useful.

We all know ( or should know by now ) the delays to the F35 programme and why the POW does not have an full air group.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron

Hi Ron, Merlins and Wildcats and yes these are aircraft, rotary aircraft he be sure but aircraft none the less. Having said it woudl be nice if we had enough F35B to equip the PoW this time out, but we gave up our naval fixed wing capability in 2011. Carrier flying is not easy and the fact we have been able to regenerate so quickly after the carriers entered service is entirely done to the US and French Navies allowing our sailors and pilots fly of their carriers. I am hoping that we buy at least another 24 F35, preferrably… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Let’s celebrate the fact we have two working carriers and some very special planes that all exist. Could be worse: a lot worse.

UK is miles ahead of Invincible level capability.

Didn’t we just get a few more F35B’s delivered?

I agree the order needs to be increased but that will depend on Block4 availability.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago

At least Sea Harrier had Sea Eagle.

johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Not much use in a LAND WAR.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

Look at all those Russian Navy ships sitting off Ukraine’s coast.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

We could have Matre ER with a land-based option too.

Typhoon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBP7dl-IHq0

Land-based:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AFF7NLluOU

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Yup, with you on that.

Orcman
Orcman
1 month ago

Yes, 3 arrived the other day, but that still only brings the total up to 26 what with one having been lost during CSG 21.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron

She’s still sitting in Portsmouth, hasn’t sailed yet.
Norway has 24 F35A’s anyway.

Last edited 1 month ago by Frank62
Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago

So some F35’s are flying around in Poland. Whoop dee doo! If they are not going to enforce a no fly zone over Ukraine, what are they doing… other than giving more photo shoot opportunities to the capitalist commies??

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Defending NATO. The whole point of NATO.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

And doing a useful high intensity exercise?

All valuable work and worth every £.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago

Defending NATO from what? Putin may be a 24k demented scummy horrible murdering dipstick, but he will not attack any NATO country, or member.

He teases, torments and antagonises NATO, trying to goad them into doing something first. That’s as far as he will go. So, why are NATO forces moving around like chess pieces on a board, when the other bloke is playing draughts.

Its ok I’ll answer… to play who can rattle the sabre the loudest, to a dude who really does’nt care.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

but he will not attack any NATO country, or member.”

Until NATO attacks him first, which a no fly zone would entail.

” He teases, torments and antagonizes NATO, trying to goad them into doing something first. That’s as far as he will go.”

Pleased to hear it! So NATO can continue what it is doing then protecting NATO nations without further provocation like entering combat with Russia at a moment which we are not prepared.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago

No… its pointless! Putin does… not… care about NATO jets swanning around OUTSIDE his sphere of influence.

He will NOT enter NATO’s sphere of influence.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

“Putin does… not… care about NATO jets swanning around OUTSIDE his sphere of influence.” I’m glad. But would he care if they were INSIDE his sphere of influence, what he sees to be Ukraine? I say he would. So why push him. They don’t need to be there. “No… its pointless!” NATO mobilising to its eastern borders is not pointless. It shows Russia NATO will respond if it is attacked. Which is the whole idea of NATO, is it not? NATO should not be some police force opposing Russia wherever they appear around the world. It is not good for… Read more »

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Tom
Apologies, I don’t agree with how you phrase things –

NATO doesn’t have a “sphere of influence” – it has members.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

When he’s invading a soveriegn nation, killing its people & threatening anyone who intervenes, it’s a sure sign someone should step in.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Exactly… but NATO will not step in, even though the bodies of innocent women and children are piling up, and schools have been hit… still… NATO will not step in.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Because chess takes skill, intelligence, practice and tactical knowledge, draughts is played by kids and people who can’t play chess. Therefore let’s play chess.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Quite correct… putin is not playing chess though.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

And that is why he will lose!

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

I hope so, would like to think so, and really wish so. However, as Ukraine stiffens it defences more and more, beats back Russian forces more and more, his only option, to save face and embarrassment, will be to unleash his massive army, including 13,000 tanks, which will result in Russian levelling Ukraine.

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 month ago

How much longer are we going to sit back and watch Ukraine civvies being bombed with impunity? The West needs to stand up to Putin. The leadership of NATO should announce that unless Putin accepts an immediate ceasefire and begins a withdrawal in 3 days, Ukraine will be accepted as a member of NATO, the nofly zone will be imposed and Russian forces will be expelled. That is what I suspect Kennedy would have done, call Putin’s nuclear bluff with brinkmanship. If we don’t, Moldova will be next, followed by Finland and Sweden. After having lost a brave ally in… Read more »

Sjb1968
Sjb1968
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

We watch as long as it takes Russia to defeat and overrun Ukraine because we are too late and
will not interfere directly because that means WW3. What we could do is offer Moldova, Sweden and Finland immediate NATO membership if they want it.
Beyond that Europe needs to rearm and wean themselves off Russian gas. We also need to rearm to meet the threat because we are totally unprepared.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Sjb1968

Yep. I wrote a long condemnation of DLs quite crazy ideas but did not post it. There is no point, some are itching for WW3 sooner rather than later. In fact, it would have kicked off weeks ago as he wanted the Russian ships sunk in the English channel.

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 month ago

Hi Danielle you should have posted it I’m sure I would have enjoyed reading it. Maybe you should read up on how JFK handled the Cuba crisis

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Hi David. No, it was a quite angry post written from the heart as I feel strongly about my view. Best not! On Cuba, withdrawing some missiles to avoid nuclear war as opposed to a dictator stopping a massive military operation in progress with all the loss of face that entails in an age of instant news makes Cuba a simple decision by comparison. Putin and Kruschev are different people. This is too raw to get involved now beyond what NATO has already done. And as always, the irony of missiles next door to the USA which set the crisis… Read more »

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 month ago

If you think that Biden is going to go to war with Russia over Latvia, or Estonia etc you are going to get a big surprise. NATO Article 5 is toothless without American support and Biden is sending all the wrong signals to Putin. Putin’s threats are bluster and it is clear that a NFZ is what he fears. We should call his bluff now. Come on, this bastard is bombing civilian kids and women!

klonkie
klonkie
1 month ago

Hi D well said- the Cuba crisis is a poor analogy to the Ukraine. I think NATO played it correctly by not enforcing a no go fly zone. That would be an act of war and rapidly escalate to open conflict. That being said. I suspect things would not go well at all for the Russians. I don’t believe Putin is rationale and certainly no Kuschev. I can’t see him negotiating or taking the so called “off ramp” option He gambled and now has a tiger by the tail. I find myself seeing him less like a Stalin figure and… Read more »

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  klonkie

“the Cuba crisis is a poor analogy to the Ukraine”. Clearly, you were not around in 1962. Clearly you know nothing, of how the WORLD were on a knife edge, expecting nuclear war in 1962. Clearly you have no idea, how frightened people in Europe, and the rest of the world for that matter, people really were.

To be fair, I can see how you would attract negative feedback and a poor response, due to your uneducated mind, and facetious comments.

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Thank you for your reply Tom. Correct, I was born in 1964. You clearly have a distorted view on current events. I intended to outline 4 bullet points in clear simple English to clarify. But if you can’t see what is self evident, I can’t be bothered. Sadly, you made no effort to read the remainder of my post to DM, which gives context. P.S. I have never received negative comments on this site from any one but you – so congratulations. On a personal note, I’ll defer to Johan’s comment which was far more eloquent than I can manage.… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Tom, my apologies. I note Johan’ s comment was not directed to you.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Hi K
Apologies accepted, and apologies to you too, for ruffling your feathers, that was not the intention. Oh and I am older than you… unfortunately.

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

All good Tom , we are all understandably angry and upset over the terrible events in Ukraine .

Let’s keep faith and hope that cooler heads prevail. It is a pity we have to deal with Putin and not Kruschev, who seemed a reasonable human being.

johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

just make you look like a keyboard warrior, as you sound like a full blown Knob and sat in mummies basement, playing tour of duty. with a hard on

dont breed as there enough vegetables in the world

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

Hi… just to say I’m still laughing here at your reply to the uneducated dude. 😂

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

We don’t want nuclear war, we want Putin stopped. Standing back permitting him to invade, murder, annex & cancel free Ukraine is a huge mistake & appeasement. Meet him head on or give way & what we’re doing is giving way & permitting him.
He crossed the red lines invading, he can’t be trusted, and neither can we if we hold back when we are needed to stand up. There is no easy option left having done too little too late to stop him invading & nothing yet to get him to stop.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Sjb1968

The path to joining NATO currently requires a membership action plan. This plan involves a formal invitation and a tailored road map for future membership. To obtain such a plan, prospective members must first peacefully resolve outstanding international, ethnic and territorial disputes. One of the points of Transnistria is that it constitutes disputed territory for Moldova and unless Moldova agrees to give up its internationally recognised claim to the territory, it will be tough to join NATO. So Putin will be told with a formal declaration that Moldova wants to join NATO, followed by a protracted time when it can’t.… Read more »

Sjb1968
Sjb1968
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

Jon all very true and Moldova represents a specific problem as you quite rightly point out but waiting to issue a formal declaration does rather sound like something you might do in normal and not extraordinary times.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

Or Moldova could give up its claim on Transnistria & be admitted into NATO & the EU on the same day, if the West makes a united special decision.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Sjb1968

Sjb1968 et al I certainly don’t want WW3 either, but I think it’s going to become increasingly difficult to sit back and watch a dictator do the “Full Grozny” to fellow Europeans every night on television. This isn’t 1939, or even 2000, we’re a much more inter-connected world – Eastern Europe no longer consists of far-off people of whom we know little etc It also seems somewhat cowardly to hide behind NATO Article 5 and allow thousands of Ukrainians to be slaughtered by a dictator – but if one Latvian is killed, NATO apparently wades in with all guns blazing?… Read more »

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Greg Bagwell (@gregbagwell) / Twitter

“My thoughts are based on my experience: as the RAF’s ex Commander of Operations (2013-16), years of flying in or commanding NFZs, years of sitting on 15’ readiness Nuclear QRA; and playing Russia in multiple strategic wargames.
The full facts are not out there and I offer some options as we watch idly as Ukrainians die”.

Would a no fly zone result in escalation or salvation for Ukraine? | Feature from King’s College London (kcl.ac.uk)

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Greg Bagwell (@gregbagwell) / Twitter An extract published on the Kings College London (KCL) site – “As the situation in Ukraine deteriorates and Europe confronts for the first time in a generation the realpolitik of a nuclear equipped Russia, some have either called for or ruled out military intervention. The ubiquitous No Fly Zone (NFZ) has been proffered as a limited military response to “level the playing field”. Indeed, I have turned to social media to add my considered support; this has met with stiff resistance, almost all of which has been based on a concern about escalation and the… Read more »

Sjb1968
Sjb1968
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Alan, we are not going have a NFZ over Ukraine but we are sadly going to continue to see some horrible things over the next few days and week I fear. Your comment about it not being 1939 or 2000 perfectly demonstrates how the west has lost its way. Peace and freedom has to be protected and sometimes fought for and we have lost that instinct particularly at the political level. We do not live in some happy clappy global village and asking people not to do something doesn’t work with dictators. 1930’s appeasement has been alive and well in… Read more »

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Sjb1968

Hi SJB …. I think the example of the Ukrainians fighting hard for their freedom is really inspirational.
But like you, I fear we might see some terrible scenes over the next few weeks.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Here here!!

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

David we cannot draw a red line behind what is already happening. That would put us instantly at war with a nuclear power. It’s really shitty and horrible, but Ukraine will need to fight its battle alone. All NATO can do is draw that big red line in front of Putin, using the time to stabilise and rearming, using all other means to combat Russia ( as we did in the Cold War) we do have a model to deal with this, the Reagan model worked.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Given the way that the Ukrainians are resisting, Russia, should it manage to eventually conquer and hold every square metre of Ukraine ( not a certainty given their performance to date), will not really be in a position to move on anyone else. It will be licking its wounds financially and militarily for a long time. This will allow NATO and other European forces to build depth and capability , I think this is an intention of NATO – to allow the Russian military to exhaust itself on Ukrainian soil. To paraphrase Yamamoto after Pearl Harbour , Putin has awakened… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

Exactly this. How are they going to be invading other nations ( apart from tiny ex Soviet states in the south ) if they are bogged down in Ukraine? NATO would make short work of them. Even if they recover from this kicking. And how much of their forces will they have to commit to occupy? Given 35 million plus angry Ukrainians out for blood resupplied by the worlds richest nations? NATO must rearm and shout loud and clear what it is doing. NATO needs a summit with Russia after this televised to the world at where our red lines… Read more »

Daveyb
Daveyb
1 month ago

If Russia follow the same model for the Crimea and the Donbas region. Then they will put heavy pressure on local Ukrainians to leave, unless they heavily support Putin, which is doubtful now! In the Crimea there has been a drawdown of “ethnic” Ukrainian Crimeans, who have been leaving to move back into Ukraine proper. I would expect Russia to do the same thing with Eastern Ukraine. Allow “humanitarian corridors” to allow Ukrainians to leave, thereby putting more pressure on the West for humanitarian support. Then move in more Russians to take over. Basically ceding southern and eastern Ukraine to… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Well I hoped they would not invade.
Then I hoped they’d “only” occupy the breakaway Oblasts.
Then I hoped they’d only go up to the Dnieper but it seems they’ve forayed beyond it at Kherson looking at the maps unless they’re inaccurate or I’m looking at it wrong.
Would Ukraine sue for peace ceding the east and Crimea?

Netking
Netking
1 month ago

I think the threat of Putin moving on to other countries is a little overblown. It’s still unclear if he can pacify Ukraine as is. Russia simply does not have the man power or the economic capacity to sustain the long term occupation of Ukraine. Much less the invasion of other countries. I think the smart play for NATO is rather than risking a nuclear confrontation with an increasingly desperate Putin, arm and fund a Ukrainian insurgency. That with the crushing sanctions will bleed the Russian military, economy and public support. Death by a thousand cuts.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

So do I. I see no evidence for it.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

Keep all those sanctions on for decades, if need be.

klonkie
klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

be carful what you wish for .Once you switch this on, it will escalate and get out of control.

johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

The very Simple answer to that question is IS UKRAINE A MEMBER OF NATO. no should it of joined previously YES but it didn’t, much like Finland who and Sweden who have traded both ways for decades. But now want to join the members club, NATO defends its members not people who have ignored it for decades because it suited them. And if NATO calls a No Fly there are 100,000s of people on its borders that suddenly become a target for a MADMAN with nothing to lose. its why your on here and not in NATO. you would kill… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

Yes, spot on. This needs careful handling not going all magnum like Dirty Harry.
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer is the saying I believe?

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Agreed.

Steve R
Steve R
1 month ago

Good. Let’s get them doing some night-time deniable sorties against Russian ground targets and aircraft – blow them out of the sky without anyone knowing what’s hit them, and deny we’re doing it.

Let them think it’s the Ghost of Ukraine.

RobW
RobW
1 month ago

I for one agree that a NATO enforced no fly zone is impossible. But what likelihood is it that the UN could vote for it and impose it on Russia? Probably unlikely as it would need some major non NATO countries to lead it in numbers, but it’s what should be pushed for IMO. If only to turn the tables on those who keep pushing NATO to do something.

Last edited 1 month ago by RobW
AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  RobW

You know how UN works? Russia has a veto.

RobW
RobW
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

If the UNSC can’t agree it goes to the general assembly. Not sure how that works with action like a NFZ though. The point is to turn the question UN wide rather than just NATO, which won’t happen.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  RobW

I agree, Rob – the West’s response has been stymied with all this talk about NATO. It needs to be a UN led intervention.

But I’m not saying it’s easy …………………….

Although we do have some very talented and intellectually agile diplomats!

johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  RobW

UN is to busy delivering food and water in Africa like Sainsburys deliver the same here.
shipping food and water 50 miles by truck to villages with no water supply. WHO BUILDS A VILLAGE without a water source. THE UN

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  RobW

When your country is being invaded & occupied, your troops & people killed, no way should the Ukrainian AF be constrained. Ukraine has the right to defend herself & if we are civilised & as friendly as we have talked about since the 1990s we’d be stepping in instead of trembling at the borders, discussing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Either we support freedom & democracy & rule of law in Europe or we’re little better than those we despise as dictators & tyrants. Putin must not be permitted to “ethnically cleanse” Ukraine.

RobW
RobW
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

So your solution is all out war with Russia? NATO have made it clear that isn’t going to happen, nor would the public support it as much as they are sympathetic to Ukraine. With that off the table what else is there but try and give Putin a way out. The alternative is just to watch Ukraine burn.

oh and Ukraine are calling for a NFZ, they wouldn’t be doing that if it would disadvantage them.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  RobW

Nowhere have I called for an “all out war on Russia”, your words not mine Rob. And we are watching Ukraine burn as it is. I’d like an intervention in Ukraine to drive Russia’s illegal invaders out if Ukraine wants that but at least the air support she requests, that’s all. All the escalation has been done by Russia. We’ve been head to head with Russia & China in Korea but never extended ops into China, despite even with MacArthur calling for atom bombing China, he was kept in check. I think by standing off just giving weapons & intel… Read more »

Stc
Stc
1 month ago

You can have as many F35s and whizz bangs as you like, if your politicians are “frit” to do anything we might as well have bought a load of pea shooters. I’m 65, and on and off I have been threatened by Russia with nuclear Armageddon. I’m still here, what does that tell you ? With reports of Russians shooting unarmed civilians; the Russians are right ,it’s not a war ,it’s becoming genocide. The subject has gone beyond moaning about military equipment woes.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Stc

Hi Stc I agree with your sentiments – and I’m also a child of the Cold War (indeed, the Cuban missile crisis). I don’t believe Ukrainians should be abandoned to the brutality of a Russian dictator and his generals. This is a very dangerous situation, and I don’t want WW3 – but I’m persuaded that the West can push this a bit further. I’m not ready yet to play a game of strategic patience. It would be good to see the West seize back some of the initiative in Ukraine from Putin. At the moment we still seem to be… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Alan Reid
johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Issue is YOUR NOT DOING ANYTHING, just want to send others to do it are you related to Putin. IQ is about the same living in the past and a safe distance from anything.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  johan

Johan
No – I’m not related to Putin.
Thanks for your contribution to the debate.
Perhaps try getting that Caps Lock fixed next time.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Well said Alan.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Does anyone know whose troll, johan, is? He seems very angry, but I can never figure out why.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

I agree. Also survived the cold war omnipresent nuclear armageddon hanging over us. We are failing dreadfully this test. Only good thing is it’s made Putin’s nature plain & showed our leaders up for the weasels they are. In the same way he poured empty words over the NHS during Covid but refused to give them a meaningful pay rise, Boris wanabe Churchill Johnson makes speaches & writes newspaper articles but fails to be Churchillian to see the real danger of not acting decisively. He needs to own his party’s gutting of our forces to the extent Putin can feel… Read more »

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Why blame Boris??

Even if the UK said to NATO lets go for a NFZ. Seriously how many NATO countries would vote for it? Get real – as tragic as the situation is the UK has stood head and shoulders above the usual hangers on – and I’m including France & Germany as star performers in that category.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Hi Old School – On the NFZ, see what Greg Bagwell (retired RAF Air Marshall) is tweeting.

“No Fly Zone- the short pitch: UN authorised; defensive only; Article V suspended for NATO participants; engage hostiles inside Ukraine airspace/border only (not Crimea); Ukrainian air ops continue in de-conflicted operating areas”.
@gregbagwell

He believes it is entirely possible – but UN led, not NATO.

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago
Reply to  OldSchool

How many?

For sure
Slovakia
Czech Republic
Poland
Latvia
Estonia
Lithuania
Romania
Bulgaria
Iceland
UK
Croatia
Albania
North Macedonia
Montenegro

Probably
Canada
Denmark
Norway
Holland
Italy
Spain
Portugal
Slovenia

Not sure
USA
France
Germany
Greece
Turkey

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

I know I miss Corbyn too !!!

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Thanks Frank – like you, I still feel the West could be doing more for the brave people of Ukraine.
I’m not a Boris fan – although, I think he’s not doing too bad over Ukraine. But I think the most impressive member of the government
during the current crisis has been Ben Wallace.

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Wallace is dismal and keeps playing on his minor role as a tick tock rupert not anything he ever achieved in green.

Marius
Marius
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

The alternative to Boris in 2019 was Corbyn, were you a Corbyn supporter? Shame on you!

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Stc

The USA is a major Nuclear power. Did it nuke Vietnam in 1975, or Afghanistan, last year? No of course not. Nuclear powers can lose conventional wars without going nuclear. Britain in Suez 1956. Putin might threaten. Its his gangster nature after all, but he puts himself at risk from his own inner circle if he tried to launch nukes for real.

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

You may be right but the flip side of the coin is that how many NATO countries want to engage Russia in a full out conventional war? I’d guess the number is pretty close to zero. So intervention will be indirect only (supplying intel and arms etc).

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Putin has modelled himself on the Godfather. He projects himself as the “boss of bosses”. Normal diplomacy will not work on him. Look how Macron & the Israeli PM failed. The united free world need to tell him, we are a bigger, tougher, more ruthless gang. That is the only approach that stands a chance of working.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago

Lots of combat helicopter losses, expect its usulfulness being put into question.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

Who’s?

Depends on the level of tech.

If we are talking 1980’s Hinds I’m not surprised as they were not Stinger proof.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago

No combat heli is Stinger proof. With thousands manpads a combat heli is more vulnerable than a tank and costs several times more while its advantages : mobility mean it only make sense to use it in certain circumstance like blunting a penetration.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

Some are more resistant than others; and

Some have better defence aids than other; and

Some are better tactically deployed than other…..

Daveyb
Daveyb
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

It depends on the aircraft’s defensive aids system, but also on the version of the Stinger. Older Stingers using 2nd and 3rd gen short wave and long wave IR sensors are relatively easy to decoy with flares and active IR jammers, similar with Grom. The newer Stinger uses a dual sensor that incorporates UV and an imaging infrared sensor. This is much harder to jam and decoy. Multi-spectrum flares have a so-so chance, but directed infrared countermeasures should be able to decoy the missile away from the aircraft or blind the IR sensor enough for the aircraft to manoeuvre out… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Daveyb

If you have enough old Manpads, you can get several launched from different positions, & only one needs to hit.

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

True we lost so many apaches to stinger equipped taliban in Afghanistan.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

Not at all, training and tactics mitigate possible losses and you use your assets in a way that emphasises its strengths. In war you lose people and platforms, doesn’t mean we get rid of both!

Old Tony
Old Tony
1 month ago

According to Oryx, Ukraine has now lost 41 tanks. But they have also captured 48 Russian tanks. Does this mean that the Ukrainian tank force is getting stronger ?

Of course, the captured Russian tanks may be damaged. And Oryx himself admits that his figures are not the full picture. But it’s an interesting angle.

OT

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago
Reply to  Old Tony

Oryx is doing a good job with what information is available but the reality is in war you dont have someone tweet photos of every destroyed vehicle. You shoot down an aircraft and there isnt somone on the ground to photograph the debris within 2 hours. A lot happens that is unseen, millenials seem to have a hard time understanding this, its all ‘pics or it didnt happen’. I personally would take Russian and Ukranian figures and work out the average or use the UK/US estimates based on their sat/aircraft recon.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

Couple more SU35s shot down, one near Odesa and on film. Pilot captured. His “interview” is on Twitter.

Rob
Rob
1 month ago

Lots and lots of KIA letters will be hitting Russian doormats. The one thing Putin can’t hide from the Russia is physically missing people. The more casualties he takes and the longer this goes on his choices become more limited between withdrawal (and the end of his regime) and using tactical nukes.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

Hi Rob, As Russia is now again almost entirely a totalitarian regime, I fear he can certainly news-manage – and hide the overall losses.
Individual families will struggle to join-the-dots, and see the “big picture”.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago

Thanks Daniele – Did you see the beer-belly SU-34 driver who had his smiling picture taken with both Putin and Assad? A real double-whammy of dictators! He’s now also in the custody of the Ukrainians. 😀

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Yes I did. Look at the state of those pilots.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago

It was them that ate the pies! 😀

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Fascinated by the bright orange flight suits, straight out of the Firefox film. Their aviation losses are mounting.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago

Yeah – with an orange flight-suit he really should have come down in the sea! Losses widely reported as following during the last 24 hours – 1 Su-30SM multirole aircraft (Russian Navy?) – 2 Su-34 strike aircraft – 2 Su-25 close air support aircraft – 2 Mi-24/35 attack helicopters – 2 Mi-8 transport helicopter – 1 Orlan-10 UAV If accurate, FIVE fast-jets is certainly some serious attrition in the modern era. (Probably mostly to SAMs). Even in the worst moments of Gulf War 1 (1991), the RAF was losing only one Tornado GR1 per night – and six losses in… Read more »

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

RAF losses in the Gulf War were abysmal and due to our shitty unadaptable tactics crews were lost unnecessarily. We lost many more aircraft as a percentage of sorties than the US in the Gulf War.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

Hi Louis I think that’s a myth – the RAF crews were adapting their tactics all the time during GW1. The Tornado GR1 low-level phase only lasted 4-5 nights. Plus the Jaguar force didn’t even operate at low-level in the desert (despite 15-20 years of practising that flight profile). Tornado GR1 losses during the low-level phase were comparable with other collation aircraft at the same altitude: US Navy A-6s, USAF F-15Es etc Plus the Tornado force flew the most dangerous missions: against Iraqi airfields using the JP233 runway-busting weapons system. Of those six Tornado losses (and five airmen) : Four… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Cheers for that Alan -excellent interesting post

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Hi Klonkie Many thanks indeed for those very kind comments. If you’re interested in reading more, I can certainly recommend John Nichol’s recent book “Tornado – In the eye of the storm” (2021). It mainly covers the intensive early phase of low-level operations by the Tornado force. It’s written very much in the same page-turning style as Roland White (he of “Vulcan 607″ fame). It could maybe do with a bit more analysis – but it’s still a very powerful narrative history. Famously, Nichol himself was shot-down during the only daylight low-level attack on an Iraqi airbase mounted by Tornados… Read more »

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago

Hi Daniele, As the Russian air-force is operating at low-level, you might be interested in further details on those Tornado GW1 losses – in response to a query by Louis.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Morning Alan. As I said, I knew you were the aviation man.

Just read it, and in complete agreement. I have long known the RAF took on the most dangerous missions with the JPs.
Which is what they trained for, night operations in all weathers into East Germany and Poland.

We once had 13 front line squadrons if I remember correctly?
4 at Bruggen, 3 at Laarbruch, and 2 each at Lossi, Marham, Honington? RAFG alone was larger than the current RAF fast jet fleet.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago

Thanks, Daniele

Yes – I make it 11 front-line Tornado GR1/GR1A squadrons in 1991 (plus an OCU and the joint TTTE with the Germans and Italians). In addition, there were 7 Tornado F3 squadrons – plus an OCU.
You’re absolutely right about RAF Germany – at the end of the Cold War there were 12 combat jet squadrons (including eight Tornado GR1 units). In terms of numbers, much bigger than the RAF combat-jet fleet of today.

Those were the days! 😉

Last edited 1 month ago by Alan Reid
Puffing Billy
Puffing Billy
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Those were indeed the days. I spent 2 tours at RAF Swanton Morley buying spares for the Tornado and it’s RB199 engine – using computerised mathematical models. Great trips to Munich (if possible always arranged at Octoberfest time), Milan and Turin.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Puffing Billy

Swanton Morley, that’s a station I’d long forgotten. What’s there now, housing?

Puffing Billy
Puffing Billy
1 month ago

I think the Army are there. Most redundant RAF stations seem to end up recycled into housing.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Was it 11? Ah, maybe the Honington ones moved?
12, yes, including 2 GR3 Sqns at Gutersloh, 2 Phantom at Wildenrath. And Chinook and Puma Sqns also at Gutersloh. There was also a comms unit there flying a transport type I forget and the infamous Gatow stn flight!

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago

I think Honington was the OCU (45 Squadron?); the TTTE was at Cottesmore.
Other bases: Bruggen, Laarbruch – and Marham.
Later Lossiemouth.
I’ve a feeling the Gatow station flight was Chipmunks!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Indeed. 2 Chipmunks. There to “exercise the UKs right to fly over Berlin”
In reality, spy planes that sometimes worked with BRIXMIS.
The 7 F3 units were 3 Leeming, 2 each at Leuchars and Coningsby. Plus 2 Phantom at Wattisham and for a time earlier last of the Lightnings at Binbrook. 2 of these squadrons remained by the time the Tories came to power in 2010. All cut.

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago

Hi Di , I think the transports were Andover’s -60 sqn at Wildenrath?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Hi Klonk mate. I cannot remember. Probably. Will be in one if my old books. 😆

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

Just looked, I could picture the aircraft livery in my mind and wasn’t sure about Andover. It was a Pembroke. I’d totally forgotten them..

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago

😂

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago

He looks like the ex Russkie pilot who chugged us around Afghanistan for a while, mature, overweight, ruddy vodka cheeks and not a care in the world for H&S, both in the air or on the ground!

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Hi Alan’ His ejector seat will be working overtime to propel that bulk.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Klonkie

😀😀😀

David
David
1 month ago

If you want to deter Russia I’d suggest we send light infantry armed with Javelins, NLAW, Stingers and tractors.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  David

That seems to all that is need ATM.

But IRL some F35B’s to take radar and AA offline permanently and then to clear space for Typhoons to chop up the armour with the Apaches swinging by with top cover to clean things up.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

They won’t require the F-35B to achieve that goal.

“The Eurofighter Typhoon has one of the world’s most advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) systems. This allows the Typhoon to operate stealthily, evading threats and preventing engagement.

This vulnerability against high-end threats with counter-stealth techniques is difficult to address because the basic elements of physical stealth (an aircraft’s skin & surface treatments, internal structure, and configuration) cannot easily be changed.

However, in contrast, the Typhoon’s EW systems, which are readily re-programmable, can evolve digitally to maintain the aircraft’s combat advantage even as threats change around it.

https://eurodass.com/news/digital-stealth/

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Well maybe.

T1 had a reasonable mechanically scanned effort.

T2/3 something significantly better with higher RF power abs cooling. So the sustained power output was massively higher.

Radar2 is well in advance of the F35 radar. This what will go into T2/3 under RAF plans.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

“Radar2 is well in advance of the F35 radar.”

And another very good reason to purchase more Typhoons now!

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Well it is the reason why the new UK centric projects have legs.

Whilst Typhoon isn’t ‘stealthy’ it is pretty stealthy and it is more manoeuvrable.

BAE also did some work on sensor fusion and came up with an impressive demonstrator.

We have perfectly well got the tech and the partners. All we need is the funds and then we will to go Gen6.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

“Whilst Typhoon isn’t ‘stealthy’ it is pretty stealthy and it is more manoeuvrable.”

And could be even more so!

https://tacairnet.com/2015/07/15/improving-the-typhoons-aerodynamics/

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

That isn’t the direction of travel: is it?

To make it more stealthy the characteristics would be worse but vectored thrust would be used to overcome that and return the same excellent results as before?

That kit could be used to pimp T2/3?

Last edited 1 month ago by Supportive Bloke
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

There isn’t a requirement to make it more stealthy, electronic stealth takes care of that problem until the arrival of Tempest. Plus: “Leading technology materials and design provide Eurofighter Typhoon with a reduced radar signature, while its superior avionic processing speeds, aerodynamic agility and beyond visual range (BVR) capabilities enable it to operate effectively while avoiding detection.” “According to Eurojet, a Typhoon equipped with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVN) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5%, while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7%. Typhoon is already capable of performing ‘super-cruise’ (flying supersonically… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Steve R
Steve R
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

If defence spending does increase in response to Ukraine we should definitely purchase more! Up to around 180 planes/10 squadrons!

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago