British Typhoon and F-35 jets fought off simulated attacks by Spanish F-18s; Finnish F-18s and German Typhoons.
The Royal Air Force say here that F-35B Lightning and Typhoon aircraft have been conducting air combat training with NATO and Joint Expeditionary Force partners in the Baltic Sea Region.
“The intensive 3-day exercise was conducted in Estonian and Lithuanian airspace with fighter jets from Belgium, Spain, Finland, France and Germany, demonstrating the collaboration and cohesion of NATO and Joint Expeditionary Force air forces. In the scenario, the UK aircraft conducted a variety of training serials in attacking and defensive roles. Initially, they operated alongside Belgian F-16s to practice defending the airspace from simulated attacks by Spanish F-18s; Finnish F-18s and German Typhoons.
On the final day of the exercise the UK Lightnings and Typhoons switched roles to become the aggressor aircraft. Their task was to conduct simulated attacks on a Lithuanian airfield. F-18s from the Spanish Air Force and Mirage 2000s from the French Air Force attempted to defend the airfield.”
The RAF add that their aircraft were supported by a Voyager tanker aircraft from RAF Brize Norton, which provided air-to-air refuelling to extend the duration of the air combat sorties.
The primary objective of the training was to practice protecting the airspace of the Baltic States and to refine communication and management procedures, you can read more about it here.
So, who won?
Would have to be simulated with f35b in U.K. lack of offensive capability
Andy a little more infor on the offensive capability of the F35B (Pictures will self delete after 7 days)
https://i.postimg.cc/HxgWBzRL/img275.jpg
Part 2:
https://i.postimg.cc/7hBxPk6C/img276.jpg
All these are future stuff, none of it is integrated today.
Seems to be the way with 99% of uk military capability. So much is promised but sweet FA actually available now if the military is called into action. Considering nearly everything runs late or disappears into a black hole I take promises of what’s coming with less than a pinch of salt.
Agreed. It’s often all about tomorrow.
Meanwhile the cuts are immediate.
Come a new government, the next round of cuts, the previous carrots get reduced ( for more cuts ) or removed completely.
But the gravy train for the MIC continues unabated so some are happy!
Very interesting read. Thank you. New things learned today,
KF21 is going to use meteor as it’s long range missile. I will hazard a guess that Japan is also going to adopt it with the new seeker for its future jet.
Thinking of further developments for meteor will there be an even longer range version? Perhaps somehow reducing the cost may be another angle. £1million a pop is expensive. But on the other hand how often are air to air missiles actually used. So it’s probably worth it marking the missile the best it can be. Seeker and electronics will go through a constant update I imagine.
With spear 3 I’m wondered if how it’s cost is coming in? With a turbojet it that making it more or less expensive than a rocket motor? I could see it turning into a loitering munition quite easily. Just the launch speed to get up to.
Fun times ahead. Bad times if your the enemy.
You can easily and simply increase the Meteor’s maximum engagement range, without changing the missile’s internals. In a similar fashion to how Raytheon are looking to give a massive engagement range to their long range engagement weapon (LREW) program, which is by using a two stage missile. By strapping a separate rocket booster to the missile. You will delay when the Meteor fires its own pre-stage rocket motor, that is used to accelerate it past Mach 1, thereby allowing the ramjet to work. Therefore, you delay when Meteor uses its own fuel, thereby extending its range. The extra booster motor will make the missile too long, for the internal bays of the F35. But also the four semi-recessed stowage points on the Typhoon. So it will have to be fitted on the underwing pylons.
It could be used especially against ISTAR aircraft, who broadcast their location. Especially when you can generally detect an AEW platform, a long time before it can detect you. With a stealthy F35 acting as a spotter, it could also be used against long range bombers, fighters etc.
To make the missile even more effective during the end phase of the engagement, apart from adding the Japanese AESA radar. You could add the Aster’s piff-paff reaction jets. This would allow the missile to engage higher altitude targets better, but also allow it to engage targets that are manoeuvring erratically. As the reaction jets will literally throw the missile towards the target or into the target’s path.
Spear 3 already has a limited capability for loitering. A rocket is not really suited for this, as you will have to keep pulsing the engine, which could create internal pressure issues. The turbojet is the best method. Though if there was time and resources I would develop a small turbofan as a replacement, as they are more fuel efficient. To increase its loitering duration, you could give the wings a higher aspect ratio, by using a swing wing that is connected to the current wing tips. This will help generate more lift thereby extending its duration/range.
thanks Farouk, interesting read
None of this is now or even in the next 8 years I think so what’s the point having a stealth attack plane with no working stand off weapons?
Probably throws treasury planners into a hissy fit if we try to develop what’s needed now to make our forces effective. “Gapping” capability sounds so much nicer than leaving our allies, forces & nation vulnerable & toothless so if/when the worse happens many more die etc than is really necessary.
Gapping capabilities & running down the forces really helped Russia feel safe enough to walk into Ukraine, again!
Yeah it would be simulated. They aren’t actually dropping bombs on a Lithuanian airfield. One team do defending while others attack. All practice. No real missiles and bombs. Can’t go shooting allies down just for realism.
Paveways, AASRAMs and AMRAAMs, but of course it’s simulated. Do you think we’re going to take out Baltic runways just to prove a point?
No my point was it has no weapons that would be any use against a peer enemy or even any one with air defences. Good luck taking out airbases with paveway. The comments aimed more at Lockheed putting U.K. to back of intergration que
Odd I thought the F35 was well up to attacking an airfield… i was under the impression it could use GPS guided bombs, and unguided ones. The F35s take out the air defence and the CAP and then Typhoons/F35s finish the job with
LGBs. You see the F35 and Typhoon can work as a team. F35s can identify air targets for the Typhoon’s Meteors etc.
With out modern stand off weapons they would be in extreme danger attacking modern SAM systems at paveway range.
The Typhoons have storm Shadow. Also I think you are underestimating the stealth capabilities of F35 it has been run up against S300 and it cannot target or kill it. As S30o is used as the basis of many Russian Naval SAMs this is good news for the CSG.
Of course we do need betted long range strike weapons for F35 – we need to buy Stormbreaker and a anti-radiation missiles and use these in combination with stealth to tackle SAM defences.
Also we still need to use terrain etc
I’m not underestimating anything but if you look into how the US would use the platform against China. I promise you they have no intention of flying anywhere near close enough to drop a paveway, given the cutting edge radar tech they may or may not have they are producing longer and longer range ordinance. I think it’s the height of arrogance to think we know better. Spear at a bare minimum but we should also be working on storm replacement
It has plenty of offensive capability to deal with Mad Vlad’s scrapheap challenge.
Just having F35B there building a battle space picture is a massive asset for the Typhoons which do have loads of offensive capabilities.
This is a much more valuable use of F35B flying hours than sitting on PoW.
Oh thank goodness someone has seen the light on the F35 on carriers. Now is the time to work out tactics, operating with typhoon etc etc. This takes time and is well worth it
Please explain how, should the need arise, our 15 available F35’s can be working tactics with the RAF and embarking on our carrier/s. Bear in mind that the POW hasn’t worked up the F35 at all.
Geoff,
what practical use would the F35’s based on a queen Elizabeth carrier be in the current situation?
The Ukrainian situation is for just about for all intent and purposes a continental land conflict between Ukraine and Russia.
should we hold the F35’s in the UK in case some other hypothetical situation may arise or do we actually deploy them so that they can be used positively in defence planning of a NATO ally?
i’m sure if the need arose the F35’s could be back in the UK in 24hrs.
To concentrate on the Ukrainian situation is short sighted. The threats are also NATOs northern flank up to the Arctic down to the Mediterranean. The carrier’s with an airwing of F35s will come into their own, after all that’s why we opted for the B version.
So you suggest we should pull the military assets (F35’s) back to the UK and wait for the Russians attacking NATO countries from the Northern Flank down to the Mediterranean?
Should we have given the Ukraine all those anti tank missiles, and other equipment or kept them for ourselves waiting for the hypothetical all-flanks attack?
Or do you risk assess the situation/intelligence and deploy your assets as to the most likely threat?
No I’m not saying g that at all. Ukraine needs all the help it can get and we should provide what ever is needed. The perceived threat has been replaced by a clear and present threat that extends from the artic to the Mediterranean, that threat is an aggressive Russia. All this talk on the forums that well if necessary the UK can bring back the F35s in 24 hrs if we need them on the carrier’s is bull. We need a coherent defence strategy that actually works and not what we have at the moment which is irrelevant statements coming from the MOD. We have some F35s and we still do not have enough new stuff that goes bang to hang on them, again the new phrase fitted for but not with. Training is a fine thing something we Brits are still good at.
Halleluyah! A kindred spirit at last. I’ve been banging on about this for two years. M.S. and Andrew are, in my opinion, missing the point.
In four years we have managed to acquire 24 F35’s ( one crashed ) and have trained enough pilots to form one squadron of eight aircraft plus an OCU/ trials unit. Three more aircraft this year, seven next and the balance of fourteen by the 2025/early 2026. At the speed we’re moving training enough pilots to allow 47 operational aircraft will take until 2028 at least. Given that we will always need around 15 aircraft “behind the scenes” we have three small squadrons of ten in six years time to be shred between two carriers ( wait for the comments that we don’t need two ) and the RAF.
The main word in your very good post Mark was strategy, something that is sadly lacking at the the moment and even worse is the complacent attitude of there’s no rush.
Hi Jeoff,
Although a decade and a bit years ago I had to attend the annual Air power conference and I have to say the writing was on the wall then.
Guest speakers, the top brass and defence specialists. Talking absolute tosh about future air power. It didn’t sit well with many in the audience including myself and come the Q&A sessions our questions were frequently met with derision, we were old hat, long in the tooth. I asked a senior officer when he last went on frontline deployment a shooting war if you will, I myself had just come back from Afghanistan. A chill wind entered the room I was met m with an ice stare. He hadn’t you see, he was a rising star who spent most of the wars, Iraq, Afghanistan at MOD main or Northwood he could see the bigger picture and didn’t need to be on the frontline and it stood to reason that he was more qualified. I dutifully got back in my box, I was leaving soon what was the point. The illusionists had taken over the asylum.
I know what you mean Mark. This last twenty years seems to have brought logical debate to some sort of precipice and not just on defence and foreign affairs. Everything is knee jerk with little regard to strategy. Any big wig with a brain should have worked out by now that either we have to prioritize very soon or increase the defence budget. This government, like many another, is promising all things to all men and delivering none.
I didn’t say they had to be on the QE’s. I was responding to SB and MS’s views that the carriers can be worried about sometime in the future. It takes at least a year to work up a ship to “punching it’s weight” point and at the moment we are not doing anything co ordinated with any of our F35’s.
Please read my reply to \mark.
Frankly I would like to see us put all our F35s on QE, drive the CSG to Snake Island and escort grain supplied out of Odessa. Station some Typhoons nearby and feed the world.
Training is important from land and the carriers so your point is precisely what?
Given flying from carriers requires mastery of even more skills than flying from a land base this does mean regular and sustained practice is essential for the U.K. Lightning force.
This 3 day exercise with limited U.K. aircraft is not more important than any other training but is part of the blend we require because we do not want to fund our armed forces sufficiently to maintain the FAA and RAF in a manner they should be.
Well said! Some here have no clue as to the application and integration of ultra modern in-use and future-use aviation systems.
Those who bang on about F-35B sitting on a carrier deck for no purpose … 🙄
These training exercises are great. Multiple countries using different languages and kit all working together.
The F35B and typhoon team work must br dream come true to older pilots say from the tornado. Imagine going from 1970/80s aircraft to F35. Like going from a Commodore 64 to a top of the line PC.
Even the limited weapon fit just now still is air to air: ASRAAM, AMRAAM, meteor and air to ground: paveways, storm shadow, brimstone. Fantastic combination, with voyager and nato E3 also helping. Glad those nato aircraft are getting used. There’s 18 of them I think. Plenty to go round.
Among the allies listed they are all getting newer aircraft also. F35, new gripens, rafale etc.
Things can only get better
The recognised language is English, even the French much to thier discust is in English whether it be maritime or Air.
Interesting how the typhoon f35b partnership can work. MDBA doing clever things with missles, loitering, jamming , secondary targets
Air defence I think is pertinent in these situations; and things like Sky Sabre or Patriot can help reduce losses and extend our reach. I read that Poland plans to have 400 Narew (CAMM) launcher trucks; does anyone know how many we have and how many we are planning to have?
400? With 8 missiles on each? 400×8=3200 missiles! Then I would think reloads will be bought as well.
Are they expecting an alien invasion sometime. War with the USA and China?
No and it is refreshing to see a country taking defence seriously instead of empty token gestures.
No Russia. With good reason. And boy do not get into a conversation with a Pole why. Your will suffer verbal cluster bombs !
Just don’t ask how Poland is going to pay for all the hardware they have on their shopping list, at the rate they are going they will have 3+ fleets of MBTs, 6 divisions, Patriots, F35s, and the new frigates. Even some of the Poles I talk to can’t see how the government pays for it.
I’m assuming a larger defence budget than is reported. Don’t forget the extra 500 HIMARS the government wants on top of the 20 already ordered; they requested Congress approval for the sale last year.
How much more can they increase the defence budget before it starts hurting the Polish economy though? They have a lot of hardware and people planned over the coming years.
No they’re on the frontline with Russia, and likely don’t want to endure enormous damage like Ukraine has. Projected costs are near $15bn so I have no idea how they’re going to pay for it.
Poland signed a bill into law increasing defence spending to 3% of GDP, about $19bn a year.
I wish we would do the same. 3% is worth every penny if it stops someone invading you. The problem in the UK is that conflict is never seen as something that could effect the UK. This thinking is just wrong.
Don’t forget the 520 HIMARS the polish government wants.
Pardon the sarcasm but I think I’ve only seen one Sky Sabre parked on an army base so where and that’s probably been sent to Poland! Hope we can also put CAMM forward for Romania’s SHORAD/VSHORAD requirements.
Hope the MoD takes UK GBAD a bit more seriously and gets the numbers up plus for wheeled/tracked. Wonder if mixed CAMM/CAMM-ER launchers or even separate CAMM-ER/Aster SAMP/T are being explored for the UK? And we’re all still waiting to see how many CAMMs are going onto the T31s. Let’s hope it’s 24!
*so where…somewhere
Excellent. Shame we’re not deployed to help defend Ukraine where it’s desperately needed right now.
With respect – you need to grasp and understand the implications of a NATO member getting directly involved in Ukraine.
That I do. However I think Putin is counting on us cravenly cowering in the face of his threats. It seems to me we’ve rolled over & surrendered rather than standing up to them. He’s playing brinkmanship & we’ve folded at the start rather than stating very clearly that any nuclear move by Russia will be met in kind, so checking each threat. After the first month where all Putins promises & denials of aggression to the world became blatently false we should’ve stepped in with measured miltary involvement & secured Ukraine. restraining Ukraine whilst they are brutally invaded & devastated sickens me.
By standing off behind the fear of escalation we allow Putin to do whatever he wishes at the cost of devastating Ukraine, the death, rape, deportaion of thousands & millions, & declare to any tyrant that all they need is nukes & they can get away with naked aggression. Millions will starve worldwide as collaterall fallout because of our weakness & lack of leadership.
We should be doing a fair amount more than we have done. We could have nipped a lot of what’s happened in the bud with a bit more nouse & resolve. That’s my take on it anyway.
I’m quite happy with how NATO is dealing with things… I’m glad that they are a defensive organisation and not rushing in to start World War 3 in a country that has nothing, legally to do with NATO.
You should be directing your anger to the UN… I’m sure if a motion got passed authorising the expelling of Russian Forces from Ukrainian territory by any means (similar to the Iraqi/kuwait invasion) you might see a bit more action…
Unfortunately this couldn’t happen, as you probably know due to the Russian veto on security matters! It’s a shame but the UN is a toothless tiger. All be it a well intentioned tiger
With Russia practically days away, at most, from capturing Severodonetsk, I start to question the whole point of NATO anymore.
We aren’t helping to provide secure zones for Ukraine to export via sea without fear of Russia exploiting the gap in mines to launch amphibious operations, we aren’t helping despite Russia using illegal weapons banned by international law and now they are even threatening to violate the Geneva Convention.
What a spectacular message to Putin, practically gives the green light to deploy his troops to slaughter, rape and pillage Georgia and Moldova, who must be crapping themselves now. Though in fairness, I do suppose it is difficult for NATO to do anything when it has traitorous conspirators operating on the inside.
Russia did not sign up to the ban on cluster munitions (nor the treaty against anti-personnel mines).
With respect, Ukraine was not/is not a member of NATO. NATO is not the ‘World Police’, it’s a defencive alliance where members will protect & be protected in the event a 3rd country attack one. If you can’t see the point of this, I don’t think anyone can help you.
“illegal weapons”- which? International traties only bind those that signed them. Neither Russia nor Ukraine signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions.
“Violate Geneva Convention” – Which one? If you’re referring to the Prisoners sentenced to death, this wasn’t Russia. This was the the DPR who are not signatories to any Geneva Conventions.
I’m pro-Ukraine in this war but rhetoric like this doesn’t help & encouraging NATO to become directly involved risks WW3 at which point the caualty number rise off the charts.
Can you tell me where it says NATO will provide secure zones to export by sea for the Ukrainians? Or to defend Ukraine, Georgia or Moldova? It doesn’t….
what you are talking about needs to come from a United Nations vote….
As far as I can see NATO is doing what it is supposed to do…. Increasing the military forces available to defend its members if the situation spins out of control….
Another off topic comment:
Toady is president Xi’s birthday and the dry dock containing the 100K ton Type 003 CATOBAR carrier has been flooded. Will today be a birthday launch day?
Very interesting. Think you might be right there.
Also off topic but; how bonkers is it that we civillians have access to such satellite images?! Just 30 years ago (probably less!), this level of intel would only be available to a small handfull of security services.
these images are the ones disclosed by the commercial satellite companies for free…. It makes me wonder just how powerful the current generation of spy satellites are?
Can read a newspaper I believe, or better.