Elon Musk, a key figure in President Donald Trump’s administration and head of the United States Department of Government Efficiency, has backed calls for the United States to leave the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).
Musk voiced his support on X (formerly Twitter) on Saturday night when he responded “I agree” to a post stating, “It’s time to leave NATO and the UN.” His endorsement aligns with growing calls from some Republican lawmakers, including Senator Mike Lee, to reconsider the US commitment to the alliance.
Lee, a long-time critic of NATO, has described it as a “Cold War relic” and argued that the alliance “has to come to a halt.” He claims NATO is a “great deal for Europe” but a “raw deal for America”, suggesting that US resources are being stretched to protect Europe while offering little direct benefit to American security.
Musk’s comments come amid broader discussions within the Trump administration over the future of America’s role in NATO and international alliances.
While Trump has not explicitly stated his intent to withdraw from NATO, he has repeatedly pressured European nations to increase their defence spending, warning that the US should not bear the financial burden of the alliance alone.
As a key figure in the administration, Musk’s influence on Trump’s policy decisions is significant. His endorsement of a NATO withdrawal could signal growing momentum within the White House for a shift towards a more isolationist foreign policy, focusing on domestic defence priorities over international commitments.
With the war in Ukraine ongoing and NATO playing a critical role in supplying military aid, any US withdrawal would drastically reshape the global security landscape. European leaders have already expressed concerns over Trump’s stance on NATO, particularly as the alliance works to counter Russian aggression and maintain stability in Eastern Europe.
Despite Musk and Lee’s calls for withdrawal, Trump has continued to engage with NATO leaders, recently hosting UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer in Washington for discussions on European security. However, with Trump’s administration pushing for major shifts in US foreign policy, NATO’s future role in American defence strategy remains uncertain.
I honestly wish the US would just withdraw all its soldiers and aircraft from Europe, I’m sick to the teeth of hearing about it. It may be safer in the long run if they do. Guys like Musk are as thick as mince. You could see that on his “expert” opinion on the F35.
Most MAGA republicans can’t read so it’s hard to inform them but the primary reason the US still has forces in Europe is to project power into the Middle East. The US has in total 100,000 personnel across Europe which is a very small part of their force and less than 5% of all NATO forces in Europe.
Have to agree with you in this one Jim. Can’t just blame things on Trump, after all he has the backing of the majority of Americans just as Putin has from the Russian public. Can’t help but feel there’s a greater plan at foot here how the big 3 carve up the world between them. Europe (I include the UK) need plan for a strategy without the US as a reliable partner.
Three’s a crowd isn’t it? Hope the rest of world can keep these biG3 buggers in check.
I wouldn’t say Putin has the backing of the majority of Russians, he’s a dictator who changes the rules to suit himself. As for Trump, the fact that the only other option was a female president led to his election which I’m sure many regret. As for Musk, he hasn’t a clue. The combination of Trump, Dance and Musk will not make America great again and withdrawing from NATO is a crazy idea.
Usa is run by a dictator as well and a lunatic.
I understand that Putin is very popular with the older ladies. Mostly because he hasn’t dunk himself to death, unlike their husbands
Cymbaline I agree with the last part of that the US is becoming closer to the ‘axis of evil’ and if someone like Vance becomes nominal President be it run by Musk or other extremists then the outlook for their support is bleak.
However your first part simply isn’t true. Even at his peak with the Democrats in disarray and the lies and promises in full Koolaid mode his majority was slim now with little more than a month since taking over he is the least popular President in polling history, the sort of decline ironically that prompted Musk to claim Britain should have a new election, ironic from a man totally unelected and unelectable. His popularity is small and declining ing fast in th3 US even most Republicans be they voters or Congressmen men and women hate him, the great fear is however he will either become part of a dictatorship or end up in prison and thus remains dangerous.
By the way in polling 43% think the UK is their best ally, 6% Russia (though France and Germany are diwn there too) so the idea that the majority support Trumps policies are way off indeed not on one of his post election Presidential Orders have majority suppor5 with the public including LGBT rights.
Well to my very surprise the American public voted him in. To my mind he was always going to go this way so it should be no surprise. Putin if course controls everything from top to bottom, but from what I read in the Western press his approval ratings are still high especially amongst the older generation who still hanker for the old days. I was in Estonia a few years back going round some of the old WW2 battle grounds. Was only in a small group and our guide who had been educated under the old Communist regime now blames the West because they don’t have the safety nets they used to have and also complained about having to take immigrants in (welcome to the real world in my book) but it did concern me that some still have those feelings.
It doesn’t matter now? Is Europe to gamble its security on an American 4 year cycle of flip flopping between support and adversarial fascists?
I wonder if there was a poll in the UK, how many Brits would regard the US as a good ally?
I certainly wouldn’t. I would rank Canada, Australia, NZ and most European countries ahead of the US.
Trump has the backing of the majority of the Americans that VOTED – not the majority of all Americans. BIG difference, perhaps a block as small as 10% of all Americans.
Putin has the backing of Russians through control of the media, which is state owned, suppression of protests, imprisonment (and defenestration) of dissenters. Is that how you want Trump to maintain power? Stop drinking the Kool Aid.
– ‘Trump has the backing of the majority of the Americans that VOTED’
He doesn’t even have that, just a plurality of 49.8%, against 48.3% for Kamala Harris. 77 million out of 245 million people eligible to vote, or about 23% of the US population as a whole.
The UK is in Europe whether you include it or not.
We are part of Europe but not in it we have always kept them at arms length
Not sure you can say Putin has the backing of majority of Russians. The media is heavily censored and the election was rigged with the only opposition candidate killed.
I mean, Europe does include the UK. We are quite literally in Europe.
Yes as US cannot be trusted. All F35 deals should be put to an halt and European jets bought instead. We can’t rely US to honor deals anymore.
Russia whatever it may think is not one of the big three, Russia is a middle rank world power, essentially about the same as the UK.. we have different strengths but on balance Russia is in the same league as the UK, it’s not in the US, China or EU league.
I know how you feel Jim. In many ways it would make life simpler. Mind you, Musks tongue must get awfully brown when he is around Trump…
@Jim
Your stupid, cowardly and ignorant comments about NATO, European defence and almost everything else you post here are not worth the time spent reading. You are the site’s resident troll. Why do you bother?
Actually most of us are interested in Jim’s veiws. This is a discussion he is putting his view. We read it and consider it and agree or disagree adding our points to the discussion. Personally I don’t really like to see unprovoked attacks on people because of there view they have simply stated.
Thick as Mince??
Never heard that one 🤣
I am reminded of that old line about 500 million Europeans wanting 300 million Americans to defend then from 140 million Russians.
The sad thing for you Jimbo is that most of America is now ‘MAGA Republican’.
And as for think as mince well you don’t get to be the world’s richest man by being stupid or by luck either. That reminds me of that other old line that no Formula One driver is that poor of a driver he should be only driving corporation bin lorries, though their may be somebody driving a bin lorry who could drive Formula 1. Musk isn’t stupid. Trump isn’t stupid. The last lot remember depended on a voter base who told others they couldn’t tell a woman from a man. If Europeans were bright we wouldn’t be talking about this issue…….
No sad to say for you Trumpy Wumpy is taking your war away. It is called Realism; note the capital R please. The Ukraine war was a construct of dark entities within the US intent on going after Russia’s wealth. Sadly it seems they will just have to do with Ukraine assets. If Russians have 20% of the Ukraine and they are land grabbers what does it mean for the 30% of the Ukraine owned now by foreign entities? Was that land grabbed? If the regime in Kiev hadn’t accepted the IMF loan then those entities wouldn’t have been able to buy all that land because the constitution would not have allowed it. But one of the conditions of the loan was the constitution was changed. Odd that the previous government had accepted the unconditional Russian loan had to go isn’t it? Security is a very broad term. It has long since been not only concerned with the kinetic. War can be waged in many ways as Europe is finding with its sanctions. Sanctions don’t work as any half decent IR graduate knows. Shame the governments of the West don’t know that? Does that make them as thick as mince.
All I see in your comments and many others here is ignorance of events of history and bigotry. Do you lie in bed in night dreaming about being Ramnbo running around with an M60 shooting them there Ruskies? I bet you do. I bet many here do.
What a bunch of fools you lot are.
One day America says they are not going to pay the lions share of Europe’s defence bills anymore, after 80 years, and now everyone’s all in a tizzy. America will leave NATO and it’s about 30 years past due. When the Berlin wall fell, that was probably the time. The Pacific is a big risk for the US and for all civilized democratic nations. We know Europe, collectively, doesn’t have much of a navy anymore to help out so someone has to ensure freedom of navigation and most likely fight a war without Europe or the UK’s help. That someone will be the USA. When the USA has gone everyone can go back to complaining about the French, or the Germans, or the Spanish…as per normal practice.
Adios.
i want to know how a man not even an American citizen can run our country
We know grey zone attacks on social media try to create splits in our society, and we’ve seen in with Republicans and Democrats, Brexit and now I think we are seeing it between the US and Europe. NATO has gone from being the strongest military alliance the world has ever seen to a fractured hot mess in just two weeks. NATO is worth holding on to right now, keeping it going over the next four years in the hope it can be restored.
The issue is the structure and enablers. In reality NATO was build around being an am American led organisation, 2 of articles actually require actions by the US that nobody else is allowed to do by treaty.
Essentially the US leaving NATO invades the treaty.
Jim – to do what you suggest is to invite Putin to continue to rebuild the old Soviet Union, and that will lead to more war and may pull the US back into a war in Europe. As long as US troops are in Europe, Putin would not attack a NATO nation. You are being very short-sighted as is Trump and Musk
The unthinkable is happening.
It has already happened. There has been a woman actor, well supposed actor, playing the Doctor.
you mean Europe will finally have to pay its way?
22 ENATO countries are paying their way, meaning 2%+.
Well, he’s probably right to be fair. It is a good deal for us. But even with NATO in place would you trust Trump to come to our aid against Russia? I wouldn’t bet the house on it. As Macron said ‘NATO is brain dead’.
Who’s is us? I don’t think the UK is getting a good deal. I think we are a fully paid up member of an alliance. I can show you the grave stones of 700 dead British soldiers who died in wars since 2001 because America enacted article 5.
I cannot show you the grave stones of any Americans who died defending Britain under NATO, so who is getting a good deal. Israel gets a great deal, Ireland gets a good deal.
On current projections we will over take the US on defence spending by the early 2030’s and much sooner if DOGE gets its way.
Will we still be getting a good deal?
I agree with you. By us I mean European countries and how during the Cold War Article 5 meant something tangible as a deterrence against the Soviet Union. For the last 25 years though we have been fighting America’s wars. I also think Europe needs to work together on its own defence. Trump wants a US Russia alliance. Where does that leave us… out in the cold.
Europe needs to look in the mirror. European expansionism in the east has become a huge liability for the US at a time when Asia is the arena of focus. If the EU wants to grow east, it needs to foot the risk of it, not the USA. I would argue this is a continental Europe cost. The UK doesn’t benefit from what is going on in Ukraine either, there just aren’t many credible voices willing to say that with the left wing populism that has an iron grip on the British isles right now.
History it seems is as hard a geography for some people. NATO began its eastward enlargement in 99, with the US’s blessing (you lot had a veto). Europe only followed suit five years later.
So, YOU wanted the expansionism, and now YOU don’t want to foot the risk.
American snowflakes FML
This. I’m genuinely amazed at how few people are bringing up this cogent fact.
America were the ones fucking around including within Ukraine, and now they are trying to play “surprised pikachu face” this is nothing to do with us, we are the ones doing you a favor etc.
All it shows people is that the USA is NOT a reliable partner. I wonder what the USA would do if Ukraine decided to say f it and formed a warsaw pact type agreement with Russia instead (I appreciate this is never going to happen, more an example of how what happens in ukraine has a direct impact on america wrt their geopolitical fucking around against russia, and visversa)
It was America and not Europe who wanted Ukraine in NATO.
Ukraine wanted Ukraine in NATO
Left wing populism?? What on earth are you talking about?
I would not describe Starmer as left wing populist. He is, if anything, a right wing Zionist. He is acting as if the UK is the lead in Europe and trying to force his way there in the same way that Trump has done in the US. His policies are more in line with the Tories than with Labour.
This was actually a US led expansion. Read the NATO discussions the US wanted to move east. A few did not but the administrations wanted it. In the end it was always under the control of the US. First every nation has a VETO and more importantly the articles related to expansion are very specificity under the control of the US. Article 10 requires a nation joining NATO to submit its application to the US government only.. article 11 requires any ratification changes to the treaty to be submitted to the US government only.
US control of NATO is inbuilt.
Left-wing populism in the UK??!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Where is this country so I can go and live in it??! The only thing that has an iron grip on the British Isles is Mr Brightside.
NATO expanded east (with US blessing) before the EU did; the only countries to join the EU before joining NATO were Sweden and Finland.
We in the UK benefit from Ukraine continuing to bleed Russia white because it makes our neighbourhood safer, and the Ukrainians are a bulwark against further Russian revanchism. Any voice saying otherwise is just not credible.
And yet if america had a similar issue on its own continent they would 100% be triggering article 5 for help, trump wants a war and trump will crush the global economy to fill the pockets of already rich people at the expense of the little guy he’s a danger to usa and if the u.s public weren’t so self absorbed and learn about thing outside of its nation you’d probably vote against trump
Morning Jim. Slightly off subject and I know you live a distance away but if you ever venture down South I’d happily show you round the National Arboretum at Alrewas (it’s just down the road from me). We went again yesterday and had a look at the wall of all the names of the Service Personnel who have died since WW2.
I couldn’t help feeling if they were watching this fiasco what they would have thought.
I definitely need to visit there again. It’s been years.
“South” ? Blimey that’s not south of most of the country …. went there years ago, It took at least 4 hours and It’s rather a long way North from my area. More like Central England really….. Having said that, It was a very sobering visit to say the least.
If you want to venture to the true South, take a trip to Portland, you’ll see a wall mounted list of Americans who embarked there for D Day. It’s also rather sobering.
@Jim
Nobody gives a kippers’ dick what you think, or what you agree with. Last week you were trolling military people who know what they are talking about, three weeks ago you were claiming to be a British Army officer and a couple of months back you were recommending that HAMAS be fiven Sarin nerve gas to use against the Israelis. I’ll ask you again, what drug are you on? Why do you bother? What’s your agenda?
It was America and not Europe who wanted Ukraine in NATO.
He’s apparently early 40’s but I doubt he works as he’s on here pretty much all day long. Must be a work from home type I guess.
Interesting now Israel supported the axis of evil in voting with US against condemning Russia for invading Ukraine is it time to loosen our support for them and start only buying weapons from them when absolutely necessary?
I didn’t realise that Israel also voted with the US on that. Truly shocking.
In fairness to Israel they face genocidal extermination from the Arab world and need US support.
Israel is a serial invader of other nations’ territories (usually for a valid reason, I haster to add), so perhaps not surprising they aligned with Russia….and the US who is their principal backer.
Jim uk doesn’t get to defend uk soil it rightly supports western democracies, arguably iraq and afghan wars were mistakes
We will never take over from the USA on defence spending. Our percentage against our GDP may be higher, but the actual value will be significantly smaller. Bearing in mind the UK has a population of about 68M, whilst the USA is about 340M. This means the taxes that are used to pay for defence say 3%, is from what is captured from the “working” population. Therefore, even if the USA went down to 1.5%, the taxes they can pull in from their “working” population is still significantly larger than the UK’s.
Nothing is stopping the UK from withdrawing from NATO and being solely responsible for its own defense. So, go already.
A south african tech billionaire advising a russian sellout president on matters related to defence. The US is really a clown show
I cannot imagine us changing our stance on NATO unless the US announces a withdrawal. The SDSR will be published with NATO membership as a fundamental assumption. I wonder how long that document will stand up to scrutiny.
You suppose that NATO would fold if the US pulled out. That’s not a foregone conclusion. Canada and ENATO countries (ie 31 countries in all) may wish it to continue. European security without NATO would be fragile.
how else can the UK dismantle its entire armed forces in favour of total reliance on US? US Airforce stationed in UK is larger than the RAF FFS.
Just as well Musk is an unelected advisor then isn’t it?
In all seriousness America can return to the 1930s and early 1940s if it wants too. Splendid isolationalist approach. Eventually they will have to re-engage in world affairs.
Retreating to Rudrow Wilson’s days only lessens the US standing in the World and very much to its detriment both in influence and ultimately, economic prowess. In practical terms, it will take longer to draw down the US bases than Trump’s tenure in the White House, allowing the next President to reverse policy? Musk should stick to the business he knows best.
I doubt that if Trump yanks the US out of NATO the Europeans would be interested in having them back into a military alliance. The US has destroyed its credibility under Trump. Simply not trustworthy. I do think Europe should re-evaluate its commitment to the F-35 program in case Trump decides to invoke export controls on planes and parts.
It’s not going to happen, this is Trump messing with the heads of the Europeans who laughed at him at the opening of the new HQ. He quipped,’ We paid for this edifice.’ And of course he was correct in terms of a percentage, but some in the group who should have known better mocked him, and like all of his type, he doesn’t forget. The long-term implications of a total US drawdown from NATO would do irreparable damage to the USA’s standing and influence. No one struts around in grandure like the heads of European states in limoseans and dedicated aircraft to transport their proud arses to summits and suclike. Just watch the EU summits for overkill on pomp and smugness, well, Trump is right to say stop taking the mick and pay your way. I can see 3.5 of GDP being a realistic percentage by 2030 for the UK, France and Germany’s defences, and that will impact greatly on all their state budgets. The Americans do need to rebalance their defence budgets if the current Far Eastern military balance continues to grow exponentially, so a medium draw down within NATO is an understandable position.
With Trump though if you named the building after him all would be forgotten.
He craves attention, adulation, validation I suspect the Russians know this better than anyone; having had phycologists study his history for years Putin can butter him up and play him like a violin. European leaders need to take note and brown nose him cos he loves that.
Take the Nobel peace prize, he’s obsessed with it, he HATES the fact Obama got one (for doing bigger all), but hey if giving the Orange buffoon the NPP is the cost of getting a fair and security guaranteed deal for Ukraine then give him it, he’ll, give him it twice , it’s worthless anyway, look at some of the ludicrous past awards (Kissinger!). NATO/EU leaders should lean on the Nobel committee then tell trump if he backs a facilitates a fair deal they’ll all petition the committee…. knowing full well it’s in the bag.
Sound ridiculous? No more than anything else happening.
Hopefully Tempest will mature soon.
I think the innovation path will have to be accelerated. The Tempest is the new plateform, the Rafale F5 will have the avionics and missile when the plateform will be ready in 2030. May be it is time to talk about an interim solution to speed up maturation. Like common standards. You could have full capacity with french équipements by 2032. If you go alone, it is gonna be 5 to 10 years later, for maturity. Time is of the essence. Why not make an intermediate step if defense is the stage… Don’t say it would be easy, but who knows.
Where is the actual post?
Someone should perhaps remind America. Article 5 was only triggered once. After the September 11th attacks. That led to 15 years of continuous warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan that cost not just the USA but it’s NATO partners hundreds of billions and hundreds of service personnel lives.
They died defending America on missions led by America after America triggered the article 5. That was the only time it has been triggered. So. NATO doesn’t benefit America. Not very true is it?
They died defending America on missions led by America and influenced by Israel. Netanyahu preached lie after lie to the American Congress about the need for invasion.
Just to clarify, it was initially suggested by the UK to the USA to trigger NATO’s Article 5. The NATO council then decided that the attack came from abroad i.e. outside of NATO. Where the USA were asked if they wanted to invoke the Article 5 obligations, which they then said yes. This led to the NATO military actions in Afghanistan, not Iraq. That was a different, as Bush instigated the invasion based upon Saddam supporting the terrorist 9/11 attacks and defying the WMD investigators inspections, which was not agreed by the NATO council. So a lot of members did not take part in the Iraq operations.
Elon Musk is a complete bell end.
I feel sorry for moderate Americans, they must be in absolute despair right now.
That’s the problem, where is the moderate majority, does it still exist? MAGA has taken over the Republican Party and it looks set to stay that way. Republican voters won’t support Democrats for all manner of reasons, so there seems to be no stopping the chaos.
That was meant to say “Moderate Republican voters….”
Good.
Leave NATO now so the grown ups can admit Ukraine.
Mike Lee is partly correct- NATO is a relic of the Cold War, an organisation set up to counter Russian aggression above the Tropic of Cancer in Europe and North America. But he is wrong not to grasp that Putin has restarted the Cold War, in an attempt to rebuild the Soviet Union. He also fails to understand that the USAs huge defence budget has not been spent largely to defend Europe. Certainly they made a contribution to forces in Germany, outnumbered by European units. A far larger part of the budget has been spent on deployments outside the NATO mutual defence area, mostly to counter the spread of Russian and Chinese communism. The USMC, as in WW2, has been almost wholly focussed on operations in the Pacific. So has the greater part of the USN. The idea that US defence spending is incurred to protect NATO members is simply untrue.
With all Democrats and a number of Republicans appalled by the Trump/ Vance treatment of Zelensky, it is unlikely that withdrawal from NATO could get the necessary majority in congress. More likely, and effectively under the control of Trump as CinC of the armed forces, US deployments to Europe could be reduced or ended. So ENATO members need to continue to increase their defence capabilities to compensate for the possible withdrawal of of US forces. The biggest challenge will be to make good the loss of the US nuclear umbrella – easier for France than Britain with our reliance on leased Trident missiles. In reality, it was always questionable whether the USA would risk all out nuclear war in the event of a nuclear attack on a NATO member. So moving to an all European nuclear defence posture might actually be a more effective deterrent.
The big question for us is then whether we can still rely on access to Trident. Yes it is operationally independent, but is reliant on the maintenance and storage facilities in the US. We’d either need to have our own facilities, if it’s even possible for us to maintain them, or pivot to an alternative.
Tactical nukes may be a short-medium term option. It would certainly be quicker to produce. I wonder what range they would need to have to be an effective deterrent. Could they be carried by SSBNs?
MdCN ( developed from Scalp/Storm Shadow) has a range of 870 miles when ship launched, less from a submarine. Tomahawk blocks 4and5 has a sub launched range of @ 1000 miles. I believe the cruise variant of FCASW will have a longer air launched range than Scalp. Logically, that should mean a longer range than MdCN if ship or surface launched.
The USN adapted 4 Ohio SSBNs to carry up to 154 cruise missiles each. UK could do the same.
Agreed. We need our own system plus a second option.
ENATO has also to consider the need to deploy to protect Canada & Greenland from the Orange Furher.
You bet! Canada came to Europe’s aid twice in two World Wars.
It pains me to say it, but that is probably beyond us. But I cannot see the Americans being in a hurry to occupy hostile countries anytime soon!
nato nuclear deterrence has worked, there has been no attack on a nato country. (911 was terrorist attack) euro nato needs to up its game but we still need the yanks
Don’t you think NATO has changed and adapted since the end of the Cold War and thus is still useful?
For the last decades there are clear signs in the US military that they are gearing up solely to fight a peer adversary and that is China.
From the USMC giving up tanks and planning to island hop, reinforcement of Guam, spending on the bomber fleet, LRASM ,hypersonics and divesting old equipment.
The US can’t beat China and police the world at the same time.
They have told Europe to spend more, our politicians have ignored it. They still are. The UK will spend a bit more on 2027 FFS.
The rest of the EU will do feck all as well just tough talk and “solidarity” with Ukraine who will never join the EU because some counties will veto.
The only way Europe spends more is if the US walks.
Far from it. NATO Europe’s defence expenditure has increased a good bit, 23 out of 30 are now spending more than 2% of GDP, some of them more than 3%.
There will inevitably now be a further round of increases, in light of Trump s tilt to being Putin’s bestie.
With inflation, It has resulted in almost nothing in material gains. Germany is once again attempting to fuel their military with political hot air. the 100bn fund they set up resulted in nothing. Europe possesses so little and it doesn’t reach the minds of this forum. It would take 30+ years just to match what the USA has in satellite intelligence capabilities today.
South Korea alone out numbers all of Europe in an artillery, if that puts things in perspective.
Europe is already spending more on defence.
We have all observed that the United States can be an unreliable partner, demonstrated by eagerly supporting Ukraine before Russia’s invasion and now considering abandoning them. Furthermore, they’re pressuring Ukraine to sign a deal that would relinquish its natural resources. The U.S. has shown itself to be a hazardous ally.
And Europe is a good one? Freeloading, attempting to draw the US into direct conflict with Russia. The tiny continent is a clown show of politicians that have latched onto Z man, and can’t back away without saving face.
The presence of US military in Europe isn’t solely for the defence of Europe. It’s to enhance and develop US economic, diplomatic, cultural, military and political power. It’s why the US is the foremost power in the world. The insane and illiterate MAGA logic of retreating behind their shores simply gives up all that influence to rival powers. That’s what Putin wants and it’s what the fragile Vance Trump and Musk are gifting him. Unfortunately MAGA Americans are easily led and manipulated and believe anything they’re fed. They can wear and wave as many flags as they like, but their leaders are making Russia great again.
For those Americans who think US blood and treasure has been wasted on freeloader European countries, show us the graves of US personnel who died within the past 80 years for European freedom. We can show you thousands of headstones of European service men and women who died giving their lives for US foreign policy. NATO worked for the US as much as anyone else.
This may be just a deliberate provocation by Musk to kick Euro leaders into military spending mode. The US military machine has too much to lose from NATO pullout, and that includes masses of jobs in sensitive bellwether states. Remember that such a move would result in Euros no longer buying their hardware so the Congress wouldn’t allow such a unilateral action by Trump.
If that’s his plan its a f*king stupid one, since making the US look unreliable, as evidenced by this forum, creates a “anything but american” attitude anyway.
Yes, the unreliability is the key issue. It almost doesn’t matter if the US actually pulls out of NATO or not, the lack of certainty kills the organisation as it currently stands.
I don’t think so.
I think if they pull out of NATO they’ll pull their troops from Europe home. Many will likely be discharged, as there aren’t the bases for them in the US. I think they’ll reduce the size of the US military, quite considerably, except perhaps the Navy, as that’ll be needed to fight China.
Just to add, there are monuments and memorials throughout Europe that pay respect to the sacrifice, valour and bravery of American servicemen in the first half of the 20th century. They are literally never forgotten and tributes regularly paid.
Much as I hate to say it Trump is right about one thing – European nations have had a free(ish) ride on defence.
If everyone Europe raised they spend to 3% or committed to do so over time then Trump could, rightly, say to Americans ice hot them to pay their way.
And he be right and would have done right by USA, UK and NATO.
Ultimately if you want Trump to embrace NATO come equal to USA spending and the alliance is then relevant and highly effective.
Trump is only right on this is the same way Biden, Obama, etc all were. It’s not a new thing for US presidents to be chiding Europe for not meeting to the 2% target. On this point, Europe only has itself to blame and pressure needs applying by Europe only those nations still lagging behind.
Despite on paper spending more in the last deade or so we’ve actually reduced virtually everything, men & equipment, so looking at a balance sheet doesn’t reflect the ability to defend either ourselves or our allies.
Trump doesn’t actually care about European defense spend. He just wants a villain to rile his base up about.
That’s why when ENATO hit the 2% target (not minimum) he started talking about 3%, and why if we spend 3% he’ll talk about 5%.
But Europe hasn’t had a “free ride” on defense. It is still one of the biggest defense spenders on the globe, nearly 300billion if you include the UK and Norway, and that’s despite not having a credible threat to its security until 2015.
If all of Europe spend 3% of GDP on defence, we won’t need the US any more, so wouldn’t matter what Trump tries to say.
enough of these bull sheet : wsuring the Cold War, Europens use to spend as much as the US on their national defense. The collapse of the USSR leaded them to enjoy “the benefits of peace”, nothing more
the world has become more dangerous again because of US neo-cons poses, and the Europeansd began to rise their defense budgets – nd trump has nothing to do with that.
I mean to be fair how much of the u.s defence budget actually goes on its military and how much is spent on bases all over the world and how much do they spend from there veterans hospitals all things that probably in other military’s don’t have to spend as most of Europe has nationalised health is the USA is on.y spending 3.4% on defence which is less than some europeon countrys
But most US defence spending is nothing to do with NATO.
SB, The USA is a superpower ie the worlds policeman. They just have to spend a lot more to meet that remit; it is why they have 10 or 11 carriers and strageic bombers etc. In Europe we should not feel an obligation to match the %age spent by a superpower, which has very wide defence obligations. But we do need to spend more than we do if the US is not going to ride to the rescue of a threatened Europe.
2.5% for all ENATO is a reasonable short term target, rising to 3% in 4-5 years.
Musk is there simply to cut government spending by slashing the federal workforce; possibly leading to a dysfunctional nation at the rate they’re going.
He’s not there to advise on policy.
Congress passed legislation last-year making it far harder for a president to unilaterally withdraw from NATO.
Trump may have been elected by the majority of Americans, but as with all elections “it’s the economy stupid”. The majority of Republican voters still support NATO.
It’s incredibly obvious what Musk is doing; gutting the federal workforce to cut federal spending, in order to try to justify tax cuts to the ultra-wealthy.
The problem is that I think many Americans do see this; they just think it’s a matter of time until they’re also extremely wealthy, too.
Spock, Trump could still withdraw from the integrated military command structure of NATO as de Gaulle did. That is not the same as leaving the NATO organisation.
Let’s all hate America now !
Jeese, calm down, Batman and Robin will be out in a few years, then some other misfits will be in charge. It’s not America that’s the problem, It’s just two of the four Horsemen !!!!
TBH when I saw the photo of Trump and Musk in the Oval Office I was reminded of Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vadar…
Well, You can expect more of it.
Unfortunately, The US will reap, what these clowns sow with their pure selfishness, bullying ways and lack of empathy.
They may be gone in 4 years (maybe not if they fiddle with the voting system) but the damage they can do may take decades to untangle.
I fear for world peace and global prosperity.
The orange one was actually elected! Shared responsibility methinks?
And the army of red-hat wearing morons who voted them in.
It would be a mistake to see Trump as just a blip. The public who voted him in also had a role to play. Who will they vote in next?
NATO article 5 has been activated only once. It was activated by the United States. European and Canadian citizens died because we responded to the request from the United States to help defend them when they were attacked.
Let’s all remember that.
Well, it’s interesting to have the counsel of Elon on this potential break up of the western alliance; he is after all a family man: several in fact.
I’m not saying musk is lonely, but he did rename twitter “Ex”.
🙂
the fact is NATO’s defence has always been based on nuclear first strike, who can blame the americans for not wanting to get involved in that sh’show
and it’s not like they weren’t told years ago, even before the ukraine war began
That’s a bare faced lie.
if it was strike first they have done a pretty poor job of it … you have brightened my morning
Do you work in MK with John by any chance?
NATOs posture has always been leading with deterrence – strong, well-trained conventional forces positioned far forward ie as far to the east as possible. If war occurs then to fight forward whilst reinforcing from CONUS. If defence with reinforcements fails, then to consider nuclear first strike (TNW initially) to force peace talks.
This Musk thinks he knows it all 🙄
NATO is finished; it is only a matter of time. The US is now openly hostile to Europe.
Agreed, and what did Europe do to deserve that? It’s one thing to go neutral on Europe, but the US, as you say, is clearly hostile now and also clearly in bed with Russia – What do US American’s really think about that?
Europe helped the US when they triggers Article 5 after 9/11 but it’s now clear that the US is actually working against the security of Europe. Time to regroup and rebuild without any need for the untrustworthy US.
Only MAGA meatheads are hostile to Europe, not the whole of America. In fact, they’re equally hostile to all the states that voted Democrat!!
Seems cut & dried after this that Trumpism is pro Moscow, anti international law. Victim blaming UKJR for being invaded by her big neighbour, who at the time was under both treaty & more recent promises to respect her integrity. After all they’ve done, Trump/Vance think UKR should trust Putins word.
It’s not Zelenski who should be resigning, it’s Trump & Vance, but they’ve no shame or honour.
Blowing smoke up their backsides only feeds the beast.
Slava Ukraine.
Wah wah wah. Sorry but you still have to pay your defence bills. So when America has left NATO you can fight it out again with the Germans, French etc.
The politicals are posting again: and what they have to say is completely subjective. Trump and Musk are certainly pressing all the buttons necessary to trigger these people the world over. But the Trump administration is achieving what it set out to do: that is to disrupt and change the world order permanently. And to rid the West of the succubus of the “Blob.”
Trump and Vance are the elected President and Vice-President of the United States. Zelensky is not the elected president of Ukraine. His term expired on May 20,2024 and he refuses to hold elections. In the fall of 1864, the US was in the midst of a brutal Civil War, yet insisted on holding the constitutionally required federal elections. A month before the November 1864 election Abraham Lincoln believed he would lose and was prepared to vacate the White House. In the fall of 1944, the US was in the midst of fighting a global war with 7,000,000 men under arms, yet it held an election. There is no reason, as far as the US is concerned, that Zelensky can’t hold elections. He is governing illegitimately under martial law.
Hello, American here so I’m sure that’ll get me some flak 😀
I was just curious, amid the “Trump-Zelensky affair” that we all got to watch, the entire scope of media channels I’m subscribed to more or less dropped everything they were doing and realigned as if in unison to preach what Europe would be like without the USA. I followed this channel for years now just spectating and I sort of gleamed the opinion that America isn’t exactly welcome in Europe? Which is fine to me, I don’t live there so I have no real horse in that race. However, you may not know that a huge amount of American’s don’t actually want America in Europe either. So why is it now that when a president has started to preach about leaving the NATO alliance, its now considered bad? Just curious on your views if anyone cares to comment. Thankyou and again, love this channel 😀
Although I agree that several NATO countries have not been paying their way. It should be acknowledged that the only country to activate article 5 is the US. If we are taking about paying their way the US must owe the UK for out assistance in Afghanistan close to 300 billion. We should invoice Mr Trump on the next working day,
However if the US wants to leave then Mr Trump should be thanked for their service and suggest they don’t let the door hit them on the way out. The toddler in chief can do a lot of damage throws strops, there is no guarantee should ab article 5 be triggered the USA under Trump will honour their obligations. Better to get shot of them now.
Five Eyes? What of that? I have read a lot of hot air and fevered speculation. Let us wait but prepare for more toys to be thrown out of the pram.
How can Starmer go from Zero to actually looking good ? in just one week !!!!
As the saying goes, hurt people hurt. Vance and Putin are examples of how not to react when life doesn’t go your way: their response to being screwed has been to ‘weaponise’ religion: in Putin’s case Orthodoxy and in Vance’s case Catholicism. Forget grace under pressure – they parade their faith and bully others with their righteous indignation. Trump did at least choose to live in the real world of property deals. I suspect there’s a fair minded heart under the bravado; he should ignore Vance and use his authority.
I had technical problems getting a comment through the site yesterday and it didn’t appear to have been posted at all. Today I see it sitting awaiting moderation multiple times, so apologies if you see duplication.
I seem to remember being taught back in my undergraduate days that the entire subject of International Politics could be split into 2 schools of thought. Realism and Utopianism. Back in the day (before the fall of the Wall) Realism was very much the dominant school. Forty years of having to manage a hostile hegemonic power like the Soviet Union required that intentions and actions were very much grounded in reality. After the fall of the Soviet Union we entered a new era of Utopianism where concepts such as “an international rules based order” and globalism and ideas such as the “end of history” took over and reality was pretty much ignored. Defence was not a priority (in fact it could be left to rot). Foreign policy goals could be detached from national interest as long as our politicians could be allowed to signal their virtue.
The problem for Utopians is that reality has this nasty way of biting back if you ignore it too long. If you run down your defences and become energy dependent on a hostile military power who’s more powerful than you then reality will really, really want to take a nice big bite out of you sooner rather than later.
The solution to Ukraine, the threat to Eastern Europe from Russia, to the strategic weakness caused by American Isolationism can only solved through changing the reality on the ground. This means that politicians are going to have to spend less time being diplomatic primadonnas and more time resourcing, building and managing the Defence of the West. They should also be aware that they will be measured on outcomes not inputs. A Treasury gerrymandered report on Defence spend will not be enough. Reality requires outcomes not effort. More money should provision more capability and more capability provides greater combat power and therefore greater threat and higher deterrent value.
My worry is that all the institutional knowledge that was learned during the Cold War has been lost. That we are now in effect being led by naïve children who are not only are clueless about what is actually required but have entire careers built upon doing the exact opposite.
Nato is finished thanks to the Orange Emperor. AUKUS will be next. At least we will be able to sit back as disinterested cheerleaders now when China invades Taiwan and not pick up the “special relationship fantasy phone” when it rings after the Yanks gets involved and it goes wrong
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This is such bad news for Europe, these muppets that are running the US now must be scared of putin, jumped up office workers who have no idea how to solve this issue that he could supposedly end in 24 hours (to quote trumps own words).
And this vance tart! I have never seen so much makeup on a bloke, he has to be on par with a drag queen for sure, I can’t believe these idiots got in power and it says a lot for the knobs who voted them in!
I fear for my kids futures \o/
Good Day, my contribution is, it’s great to have friends and partners who can and will support in a crisis. However it should be very clear that one should plan for all eventualities and plan for the times when those friends and partners do not or are unwilling to help.
Defence should be regarded as a priority in good times and bad times. Democracy can only be protected when one is strong.
It is now time to start taking Defence seriously!
On this site over many years we have commented on this need! Perhaps now those who can change things for the better will react and start rebuilding are forces to a strength that will deter and be respected!
Hoping this will change things!
Best regards Nick Hamburg ( Former UK)
Sorry correction our forces
Elect a clown, expect a circus!
Like others, I think the only idiots who care about the thoughts of some uber rich idiot is another rich idiot voted in by other idiots.
.
.
That’s a lot of idiots.
In pausing military aid to Ukraine while N.Korea and Iran continue to arm Russia, the US has lost its moral compass.
..to give and not to count the cost,
to fight and not to heed the wounds,
to toil and not to seek for rest,
to labour and not to ask for reward
save that of knowing I am doing Your Will.
…..words not just for Sunday morning.
Who are America’s allies now…apart from Russia!
Bloody good question. I know a few who would be rolling in their graves if they knew just how little their lives were actually worth supporting the USA in the last few decades.
Musk is just another useless rich prick, who thinks he knows about military affairs, hasn’t got a clue, how bad has America got,crap president, useless advisors so what next is trump wanting is a new resort on the planet zog ,that is where he is and stays 🤔 😉 🙄
because he is a useless man who used to make money and now he expects to be God this man is good for nothing, he robs the poor and gives to the rich