The European Commission yesterday welcomed the decision adopted today by the European Council formally establishing Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO).

Also announced were plans presented by 25 EU Member States to work together on a first set of 17 collaborative defence projects.

Juncker has been calling for a stronger Europe on security and defence since his election campaign, saying in April 2014:

I believe that we need to take more seriously the provisions of the existing Treaty that allow those European countries who want to do this to progressively build up a common European defence. I know this is not for everybody. But those countries that would like to go ahead should be encouraged to do so. Pooling defence capacities in Europe makes perfect economic sense.

He added:

“In June I said it was time to wake up the Sleeping Beauty of the Lisbon Treaty: permanent structured cooperation. Six months later, it is happening. I welcome the steps taken today by Member States to lay the foundations of a European Defence Union. Europe cannot and should not outsource our security and defence.

The European Defence Fund that the European Commission proposed will complement these efforts and act as a further incentive for defence cooperation – including potential funding for some of the projects presented today.” 

PESCO is designed as an instrument in the EU Treaty to enable willing Member States to pursue greater cooperation in defence and security.

Officials have earmarked 17 joint projects that will fall under the scope of the PESCO agreement. These include establishing a pan-European military training centre, improving capability development and even introducing common standards for military radio communication.

Germany is to take the lead on four projects: the creation of a pan-European medical unit, a logistics hub, a centre for training missions and an initiative to build up faster crisis response forces.

Building on the Commission’s White Paper on the Future of Europe, the reflection paper launching a public debate on how the EU at 27 might develop by 2025 in the area of defence, and his speech at the Defence and Security Conference in Prague, in his State of the Union address on 13 September 2017 President Juncker made the case for creating a fully-fledged European Defence Union by 2025.

The United Kingdom will not be involved.

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Mike Saul
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Mike Saul

Now the UK has decided to leave the EU, I would expect a EU defence force to evolve over time to replace the current national structures. Paid for by Germany and led by France of course. The United states of Europe is now a foregone conclusion, the hope of a reformed EU with less centralised power is lost forever with the departure of the UK from the EU. On that basis I happy to support brexit (even though I voted remain) I do not wish our armed forces to be integrated into a political EU military force. I fear Europe… Read more »

dadsarmy
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dadsarmy

The problem with that Mike, the idea of the United states of Europe, is NATO and how it works, not just with the full 29 members – all of whom are sovereign states – but also the Partnership for Peace program of NATO of which Russia – yes, Russia, is a member.

There is also NORDEFCO which has a similar purpose, yet the members of NORDEFCO – Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden – are all sovereign states.

Defence co-operation in a world of stressed out budgets makes a lot of sense.

Mike Saul
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Mike Saul

NATO is a collective of independent nations who pool their defence assets for mutual defence.

NATO is a not a political or economic union.

Who will control the EU defence force? The unelected EU commission? It will have its own budget.

Fundamental differences between NATO and proposed EU military forces.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

From PESCO:

Military capacities developed within PESCO remain in the hands of Member States that can also make them available in other contexts such as NATO or the UN.

Involvement with PESCO is voluntary, and so it seems is the depth of involvement. NATP on the other hand “strongly suggests” what member states should contribute, for instance Slovenia was “strongly recommended” to contribute to a joint Germany – Italy drone program when it joined. It did indeed contribute.

maurice10
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maurice10

PESCO will eventually diminish NATO’s strength over time, leaving the US, UK, and possibly NORDEFCO as the core members. The realigned NATO will still want to link its activities with PESCO, as it grows, to ensure some joined up cooperation in the event of tension. I would assume current NATO members who will contribute to PESCO, will reduce their contribution to the Treaty, as the cost of giving both organizations equal weight, will be beyond most defense budgets? Just as the EU itself developed, the first fruits from PESCO will be the development of common fighting equipment, before concentrating on… Read more »

Kev
Guest
Kev

Surely NATO was just a means of formalising the defence of Europe by US arms, men and money. Junkers seems to think it’s a bad idea for Europe to ‘outsource its defence’ in this way, so it’s going to be hilarious.. sorry, interesting to see who is going to pay for it

Derek Jeffery
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Derek Jeffery

I’m afraid to enlighten your writers – but, lead by Germany to defend Germany and paid for by any fool state that happen to remain in the EU post 2020.

Mike Saul
Guest
Mike Saul

Who are the two EU nations that are not going to take part?

Patrick
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Patrick

Ireland is definitely one.

joe
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joe

Ireland joined…. despite voting No in the Lisbon referendum.

mac
Guest
mac

Is there any scheme the French won’t come up with, in order for them to try and be the tail wagging the German dog?

David Steeper
Guest

Spot on Mac. But I doubt the German voters will put up with it.

Mike Saul
Guest
Mike Saul

Well Patrick I have gone away and some research and it appears Ireland has signed up.

Only Denmark and Malta have declined.

Noises coming out of Europe saying that if you must sign up to this, the Euro et al then you cannot be a member of the EU post 2025. I refer to Martin Schulz’s call for a United States of Europe by 2025.

Are the people of the republic of Ireland ready for a United States of Europe and all that entails?

Patrick
Guest
Patrick

Well Mike I’m surprised, short answer is no. Irish people adamantly support neutrality. Personally I think it’s a rubbish policy, but it’s a policy each Irish Government has upheld since the creation of the state.

If the EU start requesting the Irish military go on operations or start amalgamating Irish forces as with the German Dutch approach. Then we will see a very sharp rise in anti EU sentiment coming from Ireland.

Mike Saul
Guest
Mike Saul

I am happy to hear that Patrick, but I feel the ultra EU federalists will demand it going forward.

If that is the case then nations like Ireland will face some tough decisions in the future.

joe
Guest
joe

Patrick, if you were Irish you would know that the Irish state IS NOT neutral.

Take a gander at the Bunreacht, no neutrality referenced therein.

Ireland wasn’t neutral before the creation of the UK military alliance and it isn’t neutral after joining this alliance.

Lewis
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Lewis

Isn’t this the same pact and defense union that Clegg and remainers said wouldn’t happen? They even mocked Farage over it when he warned them.

Jordan
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Jordan

Wasn’t this one of the areas where we had a veto?

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Nigel Farage, God bless him, is right on many things.

Glad the UK is not taking part in this.

NATO should always be our priority.

Tim62
Guest
Tim62

Nigel Farage was good for one thing only – getting his pension. History will not judge him kindly.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Crap. A hero for many, including me.

barry white
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barry white

I know it will never happen but if we dont get a deal and they propose to do this EU Defence force now is a good time to say OK Europe you want your own force we the Brits will pull back to our own country and form an even closer bond with the US military (Nato)

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Yep I’d go for that now.

Chris
Guest
Chris

Barry – exactly as I posted on another topic last week. Totally agree. Gloves have to come off now we are into the trade talks which will encompass far more than just trade .. after all its the bloody EU.

David Steeper
Guest

I support this 100%. It’s a win win for the UK. If they get their act together we’ll be free to look elsewhere for our defence commitments. I think our role in European defence should be in the N. Atlantic. If they don’t they won’t be able to blame us.

Mike Saul
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Mike Saul

Oh don’t worry they will blame us, just as the French blamed us for their defeat in 1940.

Tim62
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Tim62

@Mike – rubbish

BB85
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BB85

It will be interesting to see if France/Germany try to use this to bully the UK defense companies by freezing them out of joint projects and forcing other EU countries to jointly fund them by default. Italy has already been complaining as Leonardo is split between Italy and the UK so may not benefit from joint projects as they need to be split across EU member states.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Well, Norway is a member of NORDEFCO (PESCO seems to be a similar idea) but got its frigates from Spain, and is getting its subs from Germany. It should be a means of co-operation, not exclusion, and for instance the UK and France are seeking closer co-operation, and that should continue.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

There’s been a lot of hysteria whipped up by various strongly anti-EU newspapers, and it’s disappointing to see defence minded people falling for it hook line and sinker. A good read of the PESCO papers would be advised, for instance:

The difference between PESCO and other forms of cooperation is the binding nature of the commitments undertaken by participating Member States. However, participation remains voluntary and decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States.

“decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States”

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage_en/34226/Permanent%20Structured%20Cooperation%20(PESCO)%20-%20Factsheet

Mike Saul
Guest
Mike Saul

The point is PESCO is not the destination for the EU it’s a staging post for the desired destination, a EU controlled and funded military force.

The point will come in the medium term where the EU member states will be legally required to participate in an EU military force, as the progress of ever closer union is maintained.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Possibly Mike, but I don’t think it can go that far within the current Lisbon Treaty, PESCO is in the treaty, but not a totally EU controlled army / navy / air force.

But I look at it this way, I;m persoanlly not at all anti-EU or anti=France or Germany, but with Germany for instance currently on 1.22% of GDP compared with apparently the UK on 2.14% according to NATO, and France having slipped slightly to 1.79%, anything that encourages more spend from the EU laggards whether in NATO or not, is to be welcomed, and there are many of them:

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2017_06/20170629_170629-pr2017-111-en.pdf

Mike Saul
Guest
Mike Saul

Some EU federalists consider the United States of Europe as the final destination, of course now the UK has decided to leave this task will become easier to achieve.

I see no need to duplicate to role of NATO within the EU, other than for political reasons?

The EU plans to spend ,€5bn on an annual basis on this project, no doubt this sum will grow over the years to come.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Aye, well so it should grow. But one useful thing for instance could be “a pan-European military training centre”, and there’s also “a logistics hub” – for smaller member states. People talk about defence budgets and imagine it all being spent front-line or on kit, but half is spent on these things and back office stuff – and perhaps proportionately more for smaller countries like Ireland – or Independent Scotland if it happens. Having a central training facility could be useful, and save money overall. Yes, there are federalists, they were on the advance, then on the retreat, I daresay… Read more »

BB85
Guest
BB85

If France is only sending 1.79% there nuclear deterrant and r&d must be coming out 9f different budgets. They current have a larger army and navy with a much stronger national defense industry so i cant see how it could be achieved in 1.79% of gdp.

Bob Perry
Guest

The main benefits of this agreement will go of course to German and French industries forcing all members to use the same equipment.

Lee H
Guest
Lee H

Evening
Let them get on with it, as the penguin* said:
“Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave ?”
*Penguin from film “Madagascar”

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Bob you are right. The EU will dictate to its members what projects and equipment they need to buy and in what quantities as a shared resource. France and Germany will mop up. Glad we are getting out of the EU it is all starting to look a bit worrying. German dominance over Europe …again…this time through the back door, yet same result, increasing German influence, wealth and power over its neighbours. This will be the end of NATO as we know it, maybe we should abandon the NATO concept and move towards a new treaty alliance of Anglosphere nations… Read more »

Tim B
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Tim B

Mr. Bell, add in Norway too as they’re a NATO ally and not in the European Union either. Possibly Denmark due to their disagreement of an EU armed forces.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I’m for NATO but I would agree 100% with a formal alliance between the Anglophile nations.

Having been a proud Brexit voter and anti EU campaigner, I am nonetheless sceptical if the Brexit voted for will go ahead. Just look at the shananagins under way in Parliament.

Powers that be are desperate to sabotage it despite a democratic vote.

We shall see.

If it gets sabotaged Nigel Farage will be back, stronger than before.

Tim62
Guest
Tim62

Daniele – don’t put your hopes on Nigel – he’s a busted flush. He is simply not a serious politician – look at his attendance record as an MEP. And now he’s a local radio presenter –
which is about his level (no disrespect to LBC)

Chris
Guest
Chris

Tim62 – OK we get it that you dislike Farage. Many do because for the EU lovers amongst us ‘He doth spake Herecy!’. And like Remainers (I don’t know if you are one) tend to do you make your dislike very personal rather than make an argument against his position. And by the way sarcasm is the lowest form of wit especially as I doubt you could even make teaboy at LBC….. And ‘not a serious politician’? really? Farage has fought consistently and with some considerable passion for the UK’s independence for over 20 years, most of the time correctly,… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Could not agree more Chris!

National Hero for me. Always will be.

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Barry White.
just read your post in more detail.
spot on mate. 100% correct. If EU wants to do this then fine. We pull back and leave the EU 25 or is it 27??? To fend for themselves. Good luck with that. Meanwhile we will need to reinvigorate our own armed forces so much more independent and capable.
we will soon have our own EEZ to control again as well as our own free trade deals and commerce with the rest of the world to protect.

Mike Saul
Guest
Mike Saul

Saw this on Reuters and thought it interesting. 1949 – The United States, Canada and European countries set up the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), a U.S.-led military alliance. 1950 – The European Defence Community is proposed as a European alternative to NATO to incorporate West Germany and create a European army, a joint budget and shared arms. 1954 – The French parliament rejects the European Army plan. Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Britain form the Western European Union, a common defence group with a shared air force and joint command. 1993 – The EU’s Maastricht Treaty redefines European… Read more »

AV
Guest
AV

The thing is they’ll still need to pay for it all…
Anyone seen how much Germany alone has fallen behind with NATO payments?
We are talking 100 billion short in less than a decade.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Ummm, eh? Considering the UK pays about £200 million a year for NATO membership, by GDP that would make Germany’s NATO fees £270 million per year, for a grand total of £2.7 billion – and there’s no reason to think Germany hasn;t paid its membership fee every year.

On the other hand if you’re talking about % of GDP target of 2%, that’s supposed according to the 2014 Wales summit, to be achieved by 2024 – that’s still 6 years time.

So no, Germany has not “fallen behind with NATO payments”.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

And no, we are not “talking 100 billion short in less than a decade”.

AV
Guest
AV
AV
Guest
AV

It’s actually 106 billion lol.

AV
Guest
AV

And in five years….not a decade.
Puts Germany’s ‘spend’ in perspective at the very least.

AV
Guest
AV

Sorry badly worded on my part…ment actual spending not direct payments…apologies.
But the intended point is the same and that is Europe doesn’t spend what it should .

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Ah well, that’s better, but it’s not fact. And pelase, don’t use the Sun as anything like a reliable source of info! Germany has a defence budget lower in terms of %age of GDP, but that is their choice. The NATO target is to reach 2% by 2024, it remains to be seen how many of the European NATO members achieve that. Meanwhile they are completely entitled to spend less than the 2%, it’s a free world (so far). Personally I think, as I said above, that Germany is a laggard, it has a current account budget surplus, £20bn in… Read more »

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Some detail on that, Germany’s defence budget 2017 – 39.5 bn euros @1.22% GDP, surplus 2016 – 24 bn euros, defence budget at 2% would be 65 bn euros, so a further spend of 25.5 bn euros. Deficit a whole 1.5 bn euros, but with an economic multiplier of 60%, that extra 25.5 bn euros would give a surplus of 14 bn euros.

If threats for defence and security are indeed increasing, those of the EU-27 spending much less than the 2%, really need to pull their weight. Just as the USA says, basically. Or even the Sun!

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Mmm, £21 billion a year extra for Germany. They could build (or have Babcock / BAE etc build), 1 QE carrier, 3 T26, 3 T45, 3 subs, a couple of supply ships, and still have money left over to actually run them – every year.

AV
Guest
AV

Yes agree totally…that was the point I was trying to make but missed the mark kind of…lol
The Sun and the think tank in question aren’t the best sources agreed but the general sums do add up.
Quite shocking what the big European powers are contributing to defence in general.(or not as the case may be)
Many thanks for your data and corrections…much appreciated.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

AV – you’re welcome. We’re on the same page. As long as it’s not page 3!

Geoffrey Roach
Guest
Geoffrey Roach

Fear not lads. Juncker regards this as his baby therefore….spit ,fizz ,burp…and another ten years go by.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Whatever happens with Brexit, and it seems nobody has a clue how that will turn out, political relations between the UK and the EU-27 are likely to be fraught to say the least. But it is important the EU and the UK work together on defence against our potential “enemies”.

Which means the defence establishment in the UK will have to bypass the politicians and talk direct to the defence establishments of the EU-27, cough, even more than they probably do already.

AV
Guest
AV
Will
Guest
Will

Based on “research” from the Henry Jackson Society – a neocon think tank, no surprise that they came up with that conclusion.

Chris
Guest
Chris

If anyone cannot see this insidious creep to an EU military force and see the EU for what it is then you are all blind to the reality of how the apparatchiks of the EU work. They do not lay out a clear plan with intentions for all to see they write treaties, divergence within treaties, create directives, write other people’s laws with delayed implementations and inferred actions. Fog of war has nothing on the Smog these politically creative people put out every day. Juncker now refers to ‘the sleeping beauty of the Lisbon Treaty’? Excuse me Lisbon Treaty of… Read more »

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Article 49 is for joining the EU, not withdrawing. It’s A50 is for leaving the EU, and still is.

Paul.P
Guest
Paul.P

Thanks for this interesting post. You may have converted me to a Brexiteer.

Queensman
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Queensman

I’ve only just happened on this page and seen the comment above… “That Article 50 would come under QMV rules and therefore after March 30th 2017 no State can leave the EU without the approval of 65% of the EU population or 50% of the nations.” That is factually incorrect. The application of QMV relates to the post-departure deal or settlement negotiated with the country that is leaving. In no way is any member state prevented from leaving the EU. The terms of Article 50 are clear. I spent over 20 years campaigning to leave the EU and working for… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

dasdarmy – Don’t confuse Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty with a protocol to the TEU (Treaty on European Union). They are two completely different things but the QMV change affected Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty as that was the first Treaty that actually addressed any State leaving the EU. And why the title is ‘Withdrawal of a Member State’

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Yes I agree, Article something or other near the end includes the Protocols and Annexes, so they are part of the Teraty itself. In fact the protocls can give a back door to making substantive changes without having to re-open the Articles of the Treaty itself.

A50 itself refers to QMV, but in terms of agreeing and confirming the exit agreement, not any ability to refuse an exit or deny A50 itself. An interesting discussion here:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

marc
Guest
marc

Who in their right mind would fight for that damned flag?

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Anyone I guess, against a common “enemy”.

Tim62
Guest
Tim62

Indeed. I imagine lots of us believe in the European ideal – because the alternative is a whole lot less healthy

Chris
Guest
Chris

Apparently a majority in the UK do NOT believe in ‘the European ideal’ though do they? And we were never asked if we wanted to BE part of the EU either as ‘it was all assumed for us’. And there is no way I would fight for Juncker and Tusk or want any of the UK forces to do so either. At the same time I am happy for us to engage with places like Poland on a bi-lateral basis on mutual defence. All this ‘European ideal’ stuff is a sham and subterfuge for ‘ever closer political union’ the sole… Read more »

David Fulop
Guest
David Fulop

Apparently they do. Brexiteers are a minority albeit a considerably sized one.

Alex
Guest
Alex

The ultimate aim of Bonaparte and Hitler will soon be realised. A unified, federalised Europe with an armed force at the command of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. A new continental power on the border of Russia. This will not end well.

R Cummings
Guest
R Cummings

There is a lot of anti-EU, Brexit propaganda distorting the realities here methinks. First, collective European defence is not in competition with NATO. Obama told us all publicly and clearly that the USA was pivoting strategically to Asia-Pacific and away from Europe and that Europe would correspondingly have to do the heavy lifting ref defence in its own back yard. That was simply stating the reality of the last 30 years, when US troops were largely withdrawn from Europe. The deal is that Europe collectively leads, finances and provides the manpower for all limited engagements within its own geographical area.… Read more »

Peter French
Guest
Peter French

Just a simple point, getting together for defence in the EU is understandable, and presumably they will have a defence Minister,but responsible to who , not the commision but presumabley to the 27 Nations.
So in an emergency they will gather together in commitee and mull it over.Will all the 27 agree,not a chance.