First aircraft lands on new carrier HMS Prince of Wales

Blair’s labour party was a long throw from what the current leaders believe in. In many ways, Blair offered a smidgin more cream than the Conservatives but it was still Latte. We just don’t know where British politics is going, but I fear for UK defence as it could lose more influence going forward?

James – To be fair to the Cameron Coalition Government the first step to a Future Frigate Replacement was started in 1998,so the Labour Government had (only) 12 years to get the order ball rolling,plus they oversaw the sale of 3 T23’s to Chile and the drawdown of the T42 and T22 fleets.

Yes they were no panacea either, cutting the Type 45s from 12 to 6 as well as selecting the godforsaken WR21 as powerplant – batch 3 Type 22s went under Cameron BTW.

Can’t ever see a “Far-Right” party leading a U.K. Parliament!

As for the Lib-Dems and the subject of reneging on policies/manifestos, didn’t they promise to abolish tuition fees during the coalition, only to treble them from £3,000 to £9,000?

For me personally, the least favourable party in control of our military spending would be Lib-Dems, just as much as a Corbyn lead (Socialist) Labour Party.

We effectively have a far right party in government right now. (Breaking the law and sacking people for not agreeing with king borris) the only saving grace is the Boris does not really believe all he is fighting for anyway, it is entirely a career move. As for the lib Dems on tuition fees. I have not been a lib dem supporter but I have to defend them on that one as I think it is unfair that they are held account for it. They were a minor partner in a coalition they did not get to force through every single policy. On the flip side the conservative government also did not get everything they wanted either, that is the nature of a coalition…. Lib Dems did not go back on their promise, they simply had no way of keeping that promise as it was a red line for the conservatives.

Not sure how you worked that one out.
Only 21 Lib-Dems stuck to their party manifesto/promise, with 27, including the party’s ministers – backing the change, and eight abstaining.

As for “Far Right” Boris Johnson, are you for real?

When the leader of a nation discharges his duties on behalf of a majority 17.5 million voters, that’s called democracy!

No, Law breaking is not democracy, it is law breaking and it actually the opposite of democracy. And yes, I would say Boris is behaving in a way that is more reminiscent of the far right. He is expelling members of his own party for not siding with him yet he himself did precisely the same thing. The Conservative party might not yet be far right but it is moving that way. He has surrounded himself with people that have extreme views (eg Reese-Mogg). Labour has been centre left and is moving further to the far left and the conservatives have been centre right and are moving further to the right. This is not a good thing for UK politics. We have always been a fairly liberal country. That is changing. I mean we now have conservative MPs wanting to do deals with Farage, who is clearly far right and a obviously despicable human being.

The lib dems agreed to let the tuition fee go in return for other policies of theirs getting passed through. That is how coalitions work.

Your argument has fallen flat, have you read what you’ve just written, or am I being facetious?

I also think your personal attack on Farage is hideous, and typical of today’s splintered partisan politics.

I’m a floating voter by the way, I have absolutely no allegiance to any political party, and never have…

I also lived through the Seventies, I know exactly what “Far-Left” is, what it stands for, and who is capable of bringing this nation to its knees! That person (I believe) being Jeremy Corbyn!

Just my experienced and humble opinion…

Peace

I absolutely agree with you about Corbyn. Our two main political parties are becoming equally dangerous with their moves to the extremes. I have not attacked Farage I have simply stated facts about him. He is despicable if you hear how he speaks and what he says about people. He is far right and proud. That is not a personal attack as he revels in being despicable, it is his brand. I mean just look at how he talks about climate change and what he thinks of people that know it is fact!

Indeed. He has some very skewed morals. He mainly likes to stick it to the establishment… But then it also seems Johnson is also sticking it to the establishment… The establishment appears to be anything that stands between them and rationality… They are both dangerous in there different ways as all extreme views tend to be.

“I mean we now have conservative MPs wanting to do deals with Farage, who is clearly far right and a obviously despicable human being”

You have obviously met him and know that of course.

Good God Lee1.

Am I a despicable human being then Lee1? I have met Nigel Farage on two occasions, talked at length with him, liked him, and agree with him. Like him, you know nothing of me, the people I love, animals I love, charities I support. AM I despicable Lee1? No.

I was remaining silent and letting Ian get on with it as I can see you are beyond seeing any other view, but that went too far.

You really are brain washed and there is no hope for you with comments like that, which I have just flagged BTW.

Lots of Brits met Hitler before the war and thought him charming. Churchill met Mussolini in Italy during the 20’s and reported back to the British Press his admiration for the man and his achievements. Farage is an arse, even Boris, having rejected Farage’s proposal for an electoral pact…..citing that he was unfit to lead a political party….would have no truck with him! Trouble is DM…you are nice…but dim!

Lol. I will ignore that insult Herodotus. You’re not worth it.

I actually think that you are a really nice guy…just naive!

If you think scientists and people that accept climate change is real are idiots t and if you think that Arron banks is a decent human then yes you are as despicable as he is. You may have other redeeming qualities and you may be a lovely person to speak to. I certainly agree with some things you say on here. But those are red lines for any human as no one can legitimately agree with that and not be either ignorant or purposefully vindictive. Farage has helped reinvent populism he helped Trump with this. Basically his thought is that if you can not fight the facts then simply tap into human emotions and use them to turn people against everything that stands in your way. You do not need to prove facts when you have anger on your side. However that is also the same tactics that despot dictators use to get into power. Have we not learned from history how wrong those things end up?

Lee, What is your definition of populism?

Appealing to a popular if incorrect opinion just for the fact that it is popular and therefore a vote winner.

However it also then evolves into a position of the people Vs the elite. The people Vs the “establishment” in order to make the issues appear more like a war where people need to fight until the death. Messages like “if you are not with us then you are against us and therefore a traitor”. It is a powerful but dangerous tactic that divides society and pits the population against each other.

Populism appeals to feelings rather than rational thought. It is easy to whip up a storm with populism as you do not have to rely on factual evidence and can simply use inflammatory words to gain support. Facts become irrelevant and indeed can simply be made up in order to suit an agenda. Trumps campaign is a master of this, even creating a new term “alternative fact” to explain the lies.

But Lee, that definition is exactly how you have behaved in relation to the ‘baby boomers’ generation on this very site.
You have disregarded reason and facts, only pushing your own narrative whilst ignoring the other side’s opinions concerning ‘older peoples pensions’ and their vote to leave the EU, (without actually knowing who voted for what and why).
I’m afraid that the word populism is being thrown around by people who cannot debate and will not listen to other people’s points of view, in the same way that the racism label was used so effectively to cease discussion on immigration policies, a classic ‘spin strategy’ which has inadvertently helped in bringing about the rise of extremist groups.
I am still unsure about the difference between populism and democracy, apart from the former is deemed to be a vile insult, and is apparently only practiced by the proleteriat, whilst the latter is apparently reserved for readers of The Guardian.

If you do not understand the difference between populism and democracy then I am not sure you should be voting at all! Look it up read about it and learn something! This is a major part of the Brexit issue. If people were more educated in politics then remain would have won by a country mile as people would have recognised the signs that they were being duped.

And no my attack on baby boomers is not populism. Again go and educate yourself first.

And there you have it.

I am at a loss about the ignorance and yet supreme arrogance of people like you.
The inability to discuss, and instead turn to insults shows to all your immaturity and mental reasoning.

It is not an insult. My children go to school every day to educate themselves. I am not insulting them by sending them off every morning. You said yourself that you did not know so the answer is to educate yourself. It is not insulting to give advice. I can discuss things perfectly fine and have done throughout this thread.

Remember Lee1, the liberal left is where the majority of powerful dinner party goers reside, and fighting foreign wars is just too indigestible for their ethical persuasion. In fact, the UK may not fight another war for 50 years, if ever, due to a rapidly changing mindset towards protecting the planet. If as I suspect the upsurge of ‘young eco voices’ could effectively channel military resources to no conflict deployments? A state of panic is now setting political agenda’s across the globe, as extraordinary weather events increase exponentially. Unfortunately, such good sentiments are possibly surpressed in the two most powerful supporters of dictatorial rule, and thereby leaving the door wide open for mischief.

“the liberal left is where the majority of powerful dinner party goers reside”

??

Who are these “liberal left” media barons, oil tycoons and banking execs then? Any names?

Indeed, the powerful elite are rarely known for their liberalism….

You’re confusing power with money. It’s the comfortable professional set who have the greatest sway when it comes to so-called moderate opinion, in the halls of influence. Oil tycoons and their like, don’t give a fig about national politics. Maybe you should attend the odd dinner party, within the aforementioned circles, before being so quick to judge?

Oil tycoons are paying huge amounts of money lobbying to make sure we keep buying oil! Of course they care about national politics, in fact it is pretty much their main business plan! Do you think trump would be suing car companies for making efficient cars if he was not getting kick backs from the oil lobby?

Arron banks (funder of farage) owns diamond mines and is heavily involved in politics in a number of countries (obviously including the UK), mainly to further his business income. Music execs lobby for protection of their businesses.

Power and money often go together.there are not many people in power that do not also have a lot of money. Look at our current PM or the president of the US. Look at Farage (he made money out of Brexit!)

Power and money are inextricably linked, I said media barons, the top 5 biggest selling newspapers are the Sun, Daily Mail, Sunday times, Sunday Sun and Sunday Mail. Top 2 online newspapers by website traffic, Sun and the Mail.

I think they have quite a sway on public opinion, maybe a bit more than imaginary dinner parties

What you’re actually doing Maurice is confusing liberalism and the left, you said liberal left, most moderate opinion is liberal, left and right of the spectrum, you’re liberal, we all have liberal views don’t we, unless you’re against civil rights, democracy, gender rights, secularism, freedom of speech, tell me Maurice which one of those liberal ideologies do you disagree with?

You’re trying to peddle that “liberal left” who don’t like fighting wars because of their “ethical persuasion” are at powerful dinner parties shaping opinion, that’s ridiculous

Powerful “dinner parties” by definition have to have people of power there, hence media barons, oil tycoons, bank execs, politicians, I hardly think when Murdoch and a few bankers from the city are meeting MP’s at the Dorchester I don’t think they’re planning another glorious revolution do you?

I take it you would throw the BBC in at these dinner parties, people attacking the so called “liberal left” usually do, the good old anti war BBC, who was found after two major studies to be the most pro war of all UK networks in the run up to and during the Iraqi war, if there was a flashpoint tomorrow that we should be involved in the BBC would be the first to have the tanks on the lawn

Alister Campbell (media), Tony Blair (media), George Soros (finance), Gina Miller (finance),…

Should I continue?

Alistair Campbell is a washed up p**s head with hardly any influence, he has zero influence in the party he was a member for decades

Tony Blair is a washed up former PM who nobody listens to and the overwhelming majority of his own party want him tried for war crimes

George Soros has tried and failed in many countries for results to go his way

Gina Miller is a hardline remainer and her country voted to leave the EU

So those four are at dinner parties shaping public opinion then? Come on mate ffs

Alister Campbell is a p**shead, but he is also an editor of remainiac newspaper “The New European”. He also frequently appears on tv and radio, such as this morning on Radio 5, to push his anti-Brexit agenda.

As for George Soros, where do you think the funds for these legal challenges and ongoing campaign against Brexit are coming from?…

Oh come on, the new European employs one staff member, is barely 3 years old, and has a 20k circulation

But just going back to the point here, I’m not disputing that these four are doing these things, they are because that is their agenda/job/passion/belief (delete where appropriate)

The exact same type of people are on the other side trying to do the exact same, you’re turning this into a Brexit thing when it’s not

I said media barons, these are the type of people who can influence millions, not people on tv appearances giving opinions

George soros is the bogeyman with you I see, I don’t like him myself but you’re acting like the leave campaign was paid for by £1 charitable donations by millions, there are rich backers on both sides of Brexit

Including me…but I generally donate £15 per month to the cause. Millions of others subscribe what they can….we don’t need, or have, shady backers.

“The New European” is only 3 years old because it was set up as a vehicle for overturning the Referendum result. And I think you’ll find it has more staff, and certainly more contributing writers than 3.

As for media barons, start with the BBC. As John Humphrey’s has revealed now he’s free of the “BBC Thought Police” (his words) it has a Remainiac agenda.
Then there’s Sky, etc, etc.

The Vote Leave campaign shut down and ceased to exist after it won the referendum. But on the Remain side spending has continued, and indeed ramped up, helped by Soros, Branson, and many others. The Establishment are firmly behind Remain.

The Leave side had only really had Aaron Banks as a big name spender. And the Electoral Commission went after him, thankfully the National Crime Agency threw out all of the EC’s allegations this week.

I’m not sure what point you’re actually trying to make, you’ve gone off again on Brexit when mine and Maurice’s debate was not about Brexit at all

So from you’re last paragraph what you’re saying is that even though people have been campaigning to leave the EU for years and years, now that there has been a referendum people on either side are not allowed to campaign?

The establishment is partly remain, you think JRM & Boris Johnson are not establishment? You think the Sun and Daily Mail are not establishment? You think David Cameron is “liberal left”? remain and leave is not exclusively left and right, Jeremy Corbyn hates the the EU, Cameron and plenty others want to stay in the EU

Hi Sole.

Your thoughts on today’s Labour Party Conference vote, in which:

Immigration controls are lifted.
Immigration detention centres are closed.
Restrictions to NHS access for all migrants are lifted. Meaning the NHS becomes the International Health Service if all can use it without charge.
The VOTE is given to all 3.6 million EU residents and all other non British nationals in Britain. ( nice fix up that re EU referendums )

I’m asking as you yourself mentioned some months ago you too see the need for sensible border controls, and at the party conference of your party they have just voted for exactly the opposite!

Stark raving mad in my opinion.

That’s bonkers, anyone who has to commute around the country knows they reality is we’re at breaking point. Travel on Britain main motorways between 6 and 9am and they’re moving at a crawl completely unproductive time lost. We’re facing a revolution in automation in the workplace over the next few decades we simply won’t create enough jobs for the population we have now. Bonkers!

We have been at breaking point for years, but of course I’m told that it is all baby boomers fault and absolutely nothing to do with the 350000 plus we add each year in population through migration.

A bathtub, no matter how much you improve the drainage ( public services / cuts / austerity ) can only hold so much water if you keep a hose running into it.

I really cannot see why people cannot understand that.

They have made themselves unelectable in one stroke.
Their only saving factor is the front pages and the TV headlines have focussed on all of the other shenanigans in parliament.
Perhaps the reason why the opposition MPs have been making such a fuss over very trivial things like the ‘surrender act and humbug’ comments?.

Agree.

It needs to be broadcast from the rooftops by everyone.

From what I read it is not official party policy yet, but the membership who voted for it expect that it will be in the Manifesto. The lady who called the motion on it is Ana Oppenheim, from “Labour for Free Movement”

This country is F***** with these people in charge. I’m utterly shocked.

The leave side always goes on about project fear without acknowledging that it spread the most fear of all. The number of people abusing the NHS from abroad is minute. Should it happen? Probably not but is it worth much effort in eliminating it? not if the cost outweighs the benefit…

With regard to labour… There are other parties. I do not agree with much of what labour say either but that doesn’t mean I have to continue to vote conservative… We are not America…

Also remain//leave is not a purely party political issue. There are those in Labour like Jeremy Corbyn that hate the EU. There are those in the conservative party that have always been pro-eu (Boris Johnson, Theresa May etc).

I have always voted conservative but I am remain. I can no longer vote conservative though as they have moved further and further away from centre over the last couple of years. They no longer stand for much that I value.

Hi Daniele

It was a vote at conference, it’s not official party policy no matter what the headlines say, they also passed a vote in the 2016 conference to put the final deal to another referendum, that was not in the 2017 manifesto, all these votes go to the leadership and another policy forum and are then selected on the basis of will they win enough votes in all the areas they need to win seats to get into number 10

There has been votes every year at conference, hundreds over the years that never again see the light of day in a labour manifesto

So again i would take it with a pinch of salt and wait for the manifesto

Unfortunately politics is that tribal at the moment that the remain side are totally forgetting the issues that caused the country to vote leave, immigration is a big issue in quite a few Labour heartlands, even Ed Miliband as far back as 2015 was trying to address this, the hard line remain section which take up a considerable proportion of Labour delegates are forgetting this

And that brings up the wider issue of both sides not even talking about the reasons why 17m people voted to leave the EU, there is no plan on tackling any of the issues, it’s actually quite pathetic now and turning the country into a left right Brexit culture war, people on one side being uber left like these at the labour conference with the votes and wanting labour to back remain, and then the uber right wanting no deal and calling everyone traitors, both sides are wrong in my opinion, if we go with either side of that the split in the country will get worse, needs to be common ground based on decency and respect of both sides

Back to these votes and immigration, i do actually think anyone living in the country should vote, it’s obviously a sticking point with the referendum vote, if that was not possibly around the corner then yeah, if i went to work abroad for a year or two, i would want to vote in elections that have an affect on my life

The NHS, this is a consequence of the hostile environment policy, I think if you are a temporary worker working in the UK, paying UK tax and NI, you should be entitled to the same treatment of a UK tax payer, i think they have to pay a surcharge on their VISA that was recently doubled, obviously there needs to be measures put in place so people are not flying in for treatment then leaving, there needs to be some regulation so I don’t agree with totally scrapping everything

And just on immigration in general, I have always said that free movement of people is a neoliberal ideology to try keep wages low, the factory near me that makes ready meals, worked like dogs for minimum wage, it’s minimum wage because the labor market for unskilled workers is huge and full of EU workers, i live in a town that has a massive Polish and other eastern European population, 90% of the factory workers are Polish, and to be fair to them they are decent people and a couple of them are mates, but the wage in that factory will always be minimum wage because it has an abundance of workers willing to work for peanuts, take that away and that factory will need to entice workers with a higher wage.

And to be even fairer to the Poles, i think they are the people that integrate the best into British life, I think Europeans are, remember immigrants are only immigrants for a generation, their kids are Brits, the media and people were saying the exact same things like “breaking point” in the 60’s about immigrants, now their children and grandchildren are British heavyweight boxing and F1 world champions

The problem i see other than free movement of labor is unrestricted immigration without a proper policy and community engagement where the immigrants are living is doomed to create division, especially when religion comes into it with immigrants from Pakistan and the middle east, multiculturalism is not a thing that can be fast forwarded or happen instantly, in some cases it may never work

One last thing i will say is that i think immigration is needed, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, if we stopped there would be labor shortages in many sectors, the NHS being a prime example, not every British girl wants to leave school and join the NHS, loads of girls around my age have their own Beauty things on facebook, tanning & nails etc, when girls leave school there are so many different career paths available to women now, fashion, youtube, beauty, journalism etc, and the previously male dominated jobs enticing more young women, that a historically female dominated sector like nursing will not be able to fill up all their places with British girls, my girlfriend works in the NHS and there has never been so many jobs free at the moment, don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is happening at the same time as immigration to the UK is the lowest net since 2009

So yeah like i have always said, sensible controlled immigration to stop exploitation, to make wages higher, to make deprived communities easier to integrate with the immigrants that are needed is not a right wing fascist fantasy, it’s a sensible train of thought that many in the labour party, myself included, support.

Ah! Sole. Thank you. Have not read and digested your long piece yet but glad you saw my post.

” the remain side are totally forgetting the issues that caused the country to vote leave”

BINGO! Thank you. I have been saying this for a while. Immigration and sovereignty were the main ones, with “free movement” the main one.

I myself was quite happy with the trade side of things EU wise and I think most leavers could see the undoubted benefits of Single Market access. But NOT at the price of free movement. It really is quite simple.

“And to be even fairer to the Poles, i think they are the people that integrate the best into British life, I think Europeans are, remember immigrants are only immigrants for a generation, their kids are Brits, the media and people were saying the exact same things like “breaking point” in the 60’s about immigrants, now their children and grandchildren are British heavyweight boxing and F1 world champions”

I quite agree. I have a Polish and Romanian friend, and my father was an immigrant to the UK in 1964.

But there needs to be a limit. And that is not happening.

And if it is not in the Manifesto? What is stopping them implementing it upon gaining power?

Labour and Tory had Leave in their 2017 Manifesto’s and many of them are doing the the reverse. Thornbury is actively campaigning to remain, as are many Tories who stood on the same position.

I did see it yesterday mate but i was on the sauce so apologies for the late war and peace reply

Yeah i think getting around that is a mutually beneficial FTA, something that is not getting done because we cannot leave properly

I think we broadly agree on immigration, one thing about limits though, i’m not sure it would be beneficial to us, my idea would be a government department well funded, working with unions, education, business & industry, assessing the labor market and seeing what is needed, then accepting the visas based on what we need, with all money through tax from the migrant population going to funding the areas with migrants with more public services and housing etc, if you have a limit and need more then the limit is pointless

To Labour, i think it’s worth noting that net migration from the EU is 57K, net non-EU migration to the UK is 261k, freedom of movement in the EU is just part of the issue, now a small part, so why the anger against the opposition when the party in power just signed off net 260k visas in the last year? I’m not seeing Mail and Telegraph headlines about that

And Thornberry, again that’s one of the problems facing a parliamentary democracy that has major political referendums, Islington South and Finsbury voted over 70% remain, is her job not to serve and represent her constituents? i would agree if she represented a leave constituency, and i would certainly agree that she is wrong to try get Labour as a party to back remain, MP’s are supposed to have integrity so they should be doing what their constituents vote and ask for, leave and remain alike.

Nope, MPs are representatives in our parliament, not delegates. The tradition is that they listen, but act on their own conscience. It is one of the strengths of our system that is being given away by frit MPs who don’t want to be deselected. Stuff populism…it has no conscience and at the end of the day, no one to shoulder any responsibility. Populism is nothing more than cheap politics…look at Farage!

Vote leave simply became the Brexit party. It has the same backers the same staff and the some of the same leaders!

Nigel farage, (finance), Donald trump (real estate), Boris Johnson (media), Arron Banks (finance, blood diamonds, corruption), Robert Mercer (finance). What is your point?

Exposing liars like yourself? Careful what you say about Mr Banks, he has a habit of suing people who make unfounded slurs against him.

What have I lied about? And as for Banks there is plenty of proof of his activities. To sue me, I would have had to have made an unfounded slur… I have not, his activities are out there for all to scrutinise…

Liberal democrats are a centre political party not centre left. Labour are centre left (well traditionally. They are moving further left at the moment). Let’s not get into the American style politics of accusing anyone less right than the republicans of being communist…

And for what it is worth I think we need the military more than ever due to climate change. There are going to be far more conflicts kicking off as everyone competes for food and water resources and we see large scale migration from parts of the world that become practically uninhabitable. Nothing realistic is going to be done about climate change quick enough as those in charge will not be affected by it as they are too old. The selfishness of our baby boomers is going to affect the world for centuries, they will be the most despised human generation to have ever existed.

“Nothing realistic is going to be done about climate change quick enough as those in charge will not be affected by it as they are too old. The selfishness of our baby boomers is going to affect the world for centuries, they will be the most despised human generation to have ever existed.”

The baby boomers are an easy target, they did what was asked of them and generally worked and saved and they’re reaping the rewards of that. Rather than target them as the problem you’d be better looking at why things aren’t as peachy ‘these days’. As for all the wicked old leaders, a lot of them have families too so unless you’re suggesting they don’t give a toss about their own kids and grandchildren then I would imagine they care just as much as the rest of us, they just have to manage all these changes.

I don’t think they do give a toss about their own kids. My father for instance voted to leave the EU which will have virtually not affect on him but a huge affect on me and my children. He also does very little with regard to the environment as, and I quote “it does not affect him as he will not be around”

Baby boomers knew about this problem back in the 60s but ignored it. They have known for decades that diesel cars cause hideous pollution and yet did nothing. The leaders we have now are doing virtually nothing (I mean trump has literally started to sue car makers for making more efficient cars! And unbanned incandescent light bulbs!) Our government is removing the ev subsidies yet not removing oil subsidies.

Baby boomers are the most likely to have final salary pensions (and the most likely to then be in control of the companies that put an end to them for future generations while still paying themselves huge salaries), the most likely to complain of having to work for longer into their life, the most likely to have voted for Brexit, the least likely to buy electric cars or care for the environment, the most likely to own second homes, the most likely to be landlords, the most likely to lead unhealthy lifestyles and therefore putting more strain on the NHS etc etc. Clearly they are not all bad and some have done great things for our future. However as a generation they have reaped the rewards and are now too selfish to want to fix the damage they have caused and are in fact still causing the damage despite knowing the issues.

I am not sure they were asked to screw the world and the laugh at the catastrophy left for future generations.

I think you just mean older people, a fair whack of the ‘baby boomers’ have already retired (on their final salary pensions etc) but again I’ll point out that you’d be better asking why ‘WE’ aren’t getting the same pensions rather than just being spiteful to those that do.

You do seem to have bought into the idea that all the oldies are bastards out to screw you, they’re even “the most likely to lead unhealthy lifestyles and therefor putting more strain on the NHS”… Wow, old people generally have more things wrong with them, you just sound bitter Lee.

You are misunderstanding the issue. It is not that older people have more issues if is that the baby boomers have huge health issues compared to other groups. Not because they are old, but because they are unhealthy. So that means the generations before and after them will have less self induced health issues that them at the same points in their lives.

And there are still baby boomers that are about to retire but have not reached retirement age yet. 55 years olds are still baby boomers.

We are not getting the same pensions as the baby boomers absorbed all the money. Then became company directors and removed the final salary pensions as it meant they could then earn more… They also refuse to work for longer in order to pay for their Pensions.

I’m not sure where you get this health stat from and it’s largely immaterial. It looks like you’ve decided the baby boomers are ‘baddies’ and if you muster enough shit to throw some of it might stick.

Does your scorn of the unhealthy extend to poor people ? They’re generally more unhealthy, die younger, need the NHS more too.

Oh and I’m not misunderstanding your ramblings, I see them for what they are, pick a side and give the ‘enemy’ as much shit as you can. Still, it lets you get it off your chest eh ?

The poor have excuses for being unhealthy to a point and we should be doing more to get them out of poverty. What I am talking about is people willfully and knowingly damaging the environment, putting strain on the NHS, soaking up all the wealth and then laughing their heads of at our future generations struggle.

Now the wicked old buggers are laughing their heads off…

You do have a vivid imagination Lee.

You only have to look at what people like Farage say and what their supporters therefore think in order to see this in action. Look at what trump and his friends say about these things and how they laugh and insult those that want change…. Now I know not all.of these people are baby boomers but baby boomers are more likely to support these people and their views.

The patronising sentiment of socialists.

Doing stuff to ‘the poor’ because you know best, and anyway, the plebs can’t help themselves.

Well as one of the ‘the poor’, I worked hard, became the first in my family to go to university (studying a science at a real university), and proceeded to build a successful career through hard work and application.

You are confusing the ‘Liberal left’, with the Liberal Democrats.

Because it was in direct reply to my post that mentioned the liberal democrats but not the liberal left…

You clearly have no idea what a “far-right” government is.
Do we’ve still have free-speech and an independent press? Not under a far-right or far-left government.
Do we have death-squads and political prisoners? We would under a far-right / far-left government.
Get a grip and stop exaggerating.

It is moving that way. We now have a PM breaking laws and then attacking the judiciary. We have a PM that is turning the people against the “Establishment” (whatever they actually mean by that word given that the PM himself would traditionally be thought of as part of that group), we have attacks on the press when they do not agree with the party and we now have a PM making light of death threats on his opponents and the PMs advisor is even claiming that they are enjoying that! Our PM constantly refuses to apologise for the inflaming rhetoric he uses as that is his only real weapon against reason. Calling people traitors for wanting the best for their country (even if theirs is not an opinion you agree with) is dangerous and purposeful. The only reason those things are being said is to stone aggression against those that disagree.

“We have a PM that is turning the people against the “Establishment”

No. It was that way long before BJ arrived in office. The Brexit vote was proof of that.

“Calling people traitors for wanting the best for their country”

What, like how Brexit people get called “racist” for wanting what is best for theirs!?

Your rose tinted glasses at only seeing what reinforces your world view are perfect!

My interpretation of the shadow defence ministers presentation to RUSI. Really can’t see both carriers lasting a full term or a labour government. Selling a carrier could fund a few more T31s keep yards busy and unions happy and there would be an argument they have increased the size of the RN.

“Labour government”… now there’s an oxymoron…

HMS Ocean I believe.

Thanks Daniele.

Principally from HMS Ocean…

The crew have been based in rosyth for a couple of years and as the different areas of the ship came together so did the crew compliment until the full basic crew were on board the nominal 1600 crew can only be achieved when she has her full aircraft and air crew compliment on board.

Read again. Over 300 are contractors.

‘At present, the ship’s company (around 600 people say the Royal Navy)’… ‘are joined for the trials by a team of 320 civilian contractors.’

You’re more than welcome, Daniele.

Hey Lusty.. wondered if you had seen this video from last year. Queen Elizabeth carrier .. very cool video and music.

https://youtu.be/_eE_ahJlvtI

Hi John,

No, I hadn’t seen that one, many thanks! I must say, the RN is becoming superb at making such videos.

Also to your other comment, yes, USMC F35 will be involved.

This talk of fast jets is very nice and all, but I still can’t wait to see both ships together at sea. I hope they make it happen later this year!

Glad you liked the video. Totally agree, looking very much to seeing both carriers together.

Trouble is that the word democracy is banded about as if it were the pronouncement of God himself. We are, after all, a parliamentary democracy…not a direct democracy. I understand the frustration of those that wanted a simple, straightforward outcome to this issue but, the reality is, that it was never going to be that way. Pandora’s Box, once opened, was never going to be shut that easily….and there really isn’t any point in blaming anyone for this…save of course…those with their fingerprints on the box lid!

With respect Herodotus, that’s like describing the water to a drowning man.

I personally believe that we should have left straight away, warts and all, with the option of re-applying in ten years time.

I only hope this “pantomime”, (your words not mine) doesn’t damage this nation.

Leaving straight away without any agreement would have, quite rightly, been seen as an act of gross betrayal. Who was asked whether they wanted a no deal Brexit? Who voted for economic hardship….nobody. Parliament took the responsible course of action; to achieve a settlement with the EU that caused as little economic pain to the UK economy as possible. It wasn’t achievable, and we are where we are. Again, there is no point blaming anyone for this …it’s all unchartered territory. Hopefully, we have learnt some serious lessons for the future of our country. No constitutional change without a 2/3rds majority would be one that I would promote, although I doubt the SNP would like that one!

Not sure how “uncharted territory” equates to “economic hardship”, isn’t that kind-of an oxymoron? but we’ll agree to leave it at that.
You should also set the proposals beforehand, with anything not itemised being the responsibility of opposing parties before final ratification of what the referendum stands for, and not by shifting the goal posts at one end, after the vote!

We had Leave voters from every political background, which therefore, in effect, gives a cross-party, as well as a numerical majority, to Leave.

But I know what you’re saying, and if we had considerate and intelligent compromise from the EU leadership, I believe there could have been a much better/earlier outcome.

let’s hope we get through it as a more united peoples and that we really do learn from it.

Peace

Trouble is, it wasn’t within the gift of the EU to give us a ‘Fab Deal’….for very obvious reasons! I think that you will find that the majority of MPs are remainers….hence the problem. Cameron never thought that he would lose the referendum, hence its very Ad Hoc nature. Mistakes galore all round…I think that this has to end in a second referendum! Oh, thanks for your courteous…well mannered replies!

You’ll also find that hundreds of MPs went against their constituency majority of leave voters.

Most leave voters I know are level headed and well informed professionals, as are some of my remain friends, more than you can say for many of the 650 career politicians, champagne socialists…

And on that note, we’ll agree to disagree.

Peace

The very nature of an MP’s role has been hotly debated down the centuries. Edmund Burke, the great C18th Irish parliamentarian and founder of modern Conservatism, argued that the role of the MP was to follow his conscience in all matters. He argued that the role of the MP was as a representative of his constituency, not a delegate! There is a huge difference! Many MP’s subscribe to the Burkian view…whilst they listen to their electorate, they must first act on their political conscience…this is a long tradition in our Parliament! I hope that it remains so…regardless of how inconvenient it may be at times!

You can also reference that saying to Churchill, but how can anyone say that Europe is our saviour, our only way forward as a vassal of Germanic dominance.
Germany Unilaterally stated (Quote) “Europe can no longer count on the U.S. to protect it and we urge the continent to “take destiny into its own hands.”.

Angela Merkel

So in that, we have to believe that Europe made the correct decision, in allowing Iran to break free from sanctions, allowing its Theo-Political leadership to further arm proscribed terror organisations, plant limpets on oil tankers navigating international waters, fund and arm proxy terror attacks on the worlds oil supplies…should l go on?

Like I say: No one, No one, has the definitive answer, we really must therefore agree to disagree and hope the future will bode well for all.

Last comment

Peace and Respect.

I think this is the disconnect between our parliamentarians and us prols. They can choose to vote with their conscious/as their party dictates but its really not what they’re there for. Not taking political sides but Corbyn spitting his dummy and not going to meet Trump is just bloody selfish, at the end of the day, hes the POTUS, at worst he’ll have another term, time to drop to your knees and open wide on behalf of the country, its what our unelected Head of State has to do.

We seem to have put parliamentary democracy ahead of ‘real’ democracy, as far as this cat can see it sends the message that one is more important than the other. I’m not just talking about today’s ruling by the Supreme Court, the whole process of our MP’s getting up to all sorts of tricks to get their way. Really whether BoJo has tried to limit the time parliament has had to debate this shouldn’t matter, it should all have been done and dusted long before now, again, not taking sides, they’ve all been at it, May went and got a deal and it got picked apart from every angle.

Shame on the lot of them, Tories voting twice against May’s deal to change their mind on the third time of asking, Labour playing games and now the Lib Dem’s saying they will fly in the face of the referendum. I could understand them campaigning to rejoin Europe but to just brush the vote under the carpet… Yup, parliamentary democracy is more important than what us prols want. I was a remainer by the way but I’m also a democrat.

To answer your point about putting parliamentary democracy before real democracy; we are not a direct democracy, we are a parliamentary democracy. Referenda are advisory only!
If you want to change the constitution then jolly good luck to you!

Yup, the referendum isn’t binding but it would be a ballsy call to have a referendum then ignore the result.

We do live in a parliamentary democracy but we pretend it’s a ‘real’ democracy. I’d love to change the constitution, we’d need to have one first though, we have these nods, winks and gentleman’s agreements holding our parliament together.

Yes but the dangers are that the general public may not know or even give a fig about what they are voting for. Most people don’t take an interest in the fine details…many will vote on gut instincts with a very heavy dose of personal prejudice. We must credit our politicians and their advisors with a least some expert knowledge. After all, if I am unwell, I go to my doctor…not Mrs Miggins down the pie shop…who didn’t know there was an election on. Our parliamentary system has, by and large, served us well, and long may it continue to do so!

Visiting a doctor maybe isn’t the right analogy, you’re not going to get one doctor suggesting brufin and another suggesting magic beans which is what we get with our MP’s at the moment.

I’m not convinced the ‘customs’ and understandings that or parliament are based on are that fit for purpose to be honest, there’s been a fair bit of pushing boundaries going on by both sides of the Brexit debate. Then there’s our unelected Upper House, unelected Head Of State,… While I can’t see anything drastic, I would like to see parliament given the once over to remove some of the more extreme stuff like talking into the night to prevent policies being put through etc.

You clearly haven’t met my doctor! The House of Commons is all part of the charm of an ancient institution…the mother of parliaments. Yes, it is very clunky and very quaint but why does it have to be like other countries. The Lords does pose some problems….I would rather see a lower number of them. I don’t think there is any point in electing a head of state…may as well keep what we have…great for tourism!

Each to their own mate, personally I’m not convinced our archaic patchwork approach is ideal, while I’m on my soapbox, I find the ceremony a bit much, it removes our MP’s from real life and I think they live in a bubble anyway.

I’d opt for root and branch change at the top, its not like tourists aren’t going to come , they might even get a proper shufti round the palaces if they’re not occupied….

Ain’t gonna happen any time soon so I’ll keep the torch and pitchfork in the shed for now.

Fingers crossed indeed!