Denmark, the Netherlands, the UK, and the United States have united to strengthen Ukraine’s air defence capabilities.
In a joint statement released by their respective defence ministries, the countries have declared their commitment to urgently supply high priority air defence equipment to Ukraine, which is currently under attack from Russian missiles and drones.
The statement highlights that the allies are taking this step to counteract “Russia’s brazen missile and drone attacks against Ukrainian cities.” It notes that the equipment being sent includes “hundreds of short and medium range air defence missiles and associated systems required to protect Ukraine’s critical national infrastructure.”
This initiative is also aimed at ensuring the success of Ukraine’s counter-offensive operations in the coming months. The statement further reveals that the delivery of equipment has already begun and is expected to be completed within a few weeks.
This collaborative effort was announced just prior to the U.S.-led Ukraine Defense Contact Group (UDCG) meeting that is scheduled for June 15, 2023, in Brussels, Belgium. The UDCG comprises representatives from around 50 nations and serves as a platform for coordinating military support to Ukraine.
“The initiative will deliver hundreds of short and medium range air defence missiles and associated systems required to protect Ukraine’s critical national infrastructure and further ensure the success of counter-offensive operations in coming months”, the statement said. “Delivery of the equipment has already begun and should be complete within several weeks.”
This partnership between Denmark, the Netherlands, the UK, and the United States represents a significant international response to support Ukraine amid ongoing hostilities.
UK’s JEF grouping met this week to release £92m from the fund for air defence purchases, winning bidders will be notified by the 16th. At the conference the UK also pledged another £250m to the multinational procurement fund for Ukraine.
Can’t be, the UK is just an irrelevant island unable to stand up to the mighty Russian bear 😂
According to Frost002, the latest Russian idiot troll!
https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1024/1*Zas1UE3woeW98l6-nXWNhw.jpeg
😆
Oh you of little faith. ‘we’ the smallest country during ww2 fought off the might of an enormous well equipped germany army and saved Europe. That I’m sure you know only too well but still face your doubts about the resolve of the uk. I sent 20 years in the British army and know only too well what the UK us capable if. Just keep the politicians out of it
The UK is not irrelevant, it is quite a fascinating place. Millions of it’s citizens stand for hours in the rain to celebrate the coronation, an elite family, chosen by God. You work all your lives, then sell your home and give all your money to the owner of a “care” home and die in it. You wait in hospitals for hours for treatment with other citizens from around the world, and let them go first. You only go to war when America tells you to. You build aircraft carriers, which have to borrow planes from the RAF or USMC. You voted to leave the EU for no apparent reason, other than to make the UK less relevant.
And even with all that it’s still wonderful to live here. Hence why so Many people risk life and limb just for a chance to make it to the U.K.
rule Britannia
Well said.
From what I understand people in England pay for medicine, yet in Scotland it is free, and you still love the NHS? America rule the UK, and they will soon own the NHS, which will be financed by insurance, not the UK govt.
Getting frantic and frothy I see.
Can I give you a tip? If what you write is just a litany of posts criticising the UK you expect at best scepticism and at worst derision. You clearly do not understand that most people on this site and in this country love their country, despite its weaknesses. Sure we have been going through a tough patch, who doesn’t? But we will come through. When a senior a US general comments that the UK is no longer a ‘top level fighting force’ he is not doing the country down – he is speaking as good friend who cares when he sees his friend making a mistake. That’s what good friends do. Ditto when Mark Carney writes that Brexit is the major cause of UK inflation. He’s just saying you made a mistake; recovering from it will take a while. So can I suggest that if you can’t make your criticism more constructive that you just clear off. Have a nice day.
I would rather clap our brave troops and the many thousand who died on service since the end of ww2 . Many Many people worked during covid and kept the county going not just the NHS. Police worked during covid with out specialist safety equipment what the NHS staff had and many more occupations did the same and they didn’t want clapping .
Only really old people believe The entire covid story. Easily misled we are….
Yaaaaawn silly little fanboy.
You mean unlike the massive fleet of dual purpose carrier submarines…..that are holed up in a dry dock…..oh wait they could make the dock gate fast enough so they use earthworks…..no sorry there is only one Russian submarine/carrier…..so, so sorry it’s main function is to make smoke WWI style. Assuming the toilets haven’t frozen solid.
Sorry it took a while FIFY.
Haha that is a good one.
😂
So why do you – a foreigner – care ? Why hang around a forum mostly concerned with defence matters of a British nature ? Is there not one with relevant topics pertaining to your country ?
Still , you’re mildly amusing in a heavy handed way so crack on tovarich 🙂
I don’t care, I am Russian apparently.
We were thinking more of a muppet.
The kind of views leaders and their cohorts from Germany and Argentina had in the past. But we still kicked their backsides into touch. Napoleon dismissed us as a nation of shopkeepers we soon give him the Elba. Not sure the families of all those Russian armoured vehicles personal will agree with you either as their family member met the British made Nlaw last year. We may be shite at many things and most of our politicians are just that, but when it comes to war, time and time again, we have proven ourselves to be the dogs bollocks.
Suez?
You realize that the mighty nlaw has a range of 400 m and is the intellectual property of Sweden right? And yeah I think Napoleonic wars are a little bit in the rearview mirror. Good Lord this website amazes me.
Oh dear you do seem to be getting sadder and sadder, the US green card issue is effecting you isn’t it.
Brexit was the result of inter party politics. The majority of British people are not clever enough to understand the implications of the UK leaving the EU. They all just listened to Farage.
Oh dear what a sad, illiterate rude little troll.
And why have two Frost002 accounts? oh dear, your struggling even to troll.
Ah your here again, on a sad oft repeated waffle. But the UK is that bad we have had about 8 million people arrive in the last 10 years. Oh and I see your not actually from the UK, as you are using the terminology “you”….damn you cant even troll properly without getting clocked.
Eh? I’m replying to Frost002! Unless you are using that account also?
Much truth there.
I am a citizen of a great power, and loyal to it’s cause.
Britain is an eccentric, quirky nation. And mighty proud of it too. We may fight, we may squabble, but when the chips are down and the cause is just we unite like nowhere else on the earth. We are always at the forefront of helping out when another nation experiences a natural disaster. We’re a source of historical, cultural and culinary richness, which is always on full display in cities like London and Manchester. We gave the world antibiotics, cement, the jet engine, the TV, the tin can and the world wide web, to name just a few. We have a free press; our journalists, diverse in their reporting, offer differing points of view and don’t get thrown into jail when challenging our Government. Who we always hold to account, regardless of what colour they are.
We aren’t perfect, not by a long chalk. But given a choice between Putin’s Russia and the UK today, I know which one I would choose.
Yep and still better than some miserable dump run by a short maniac who is happy to kill off his youth for his own vodka soaked dreams, give me our way of life anytime Russia is a third world country run by a dictator who is only still in power through murdering his opposition, I feel sorry for Belarus when he launches his rusting buckets of sunshine most will explode in situ the rest will fall short onto his so called friend
I think the so called Allies are indirectly fighting a proxy war in Ukraine to help America rescue her hegemonic dollar from waning on the global market. The West has twisted the Ukrainian war into an economic war to save the American interests in the global economy.
https://watcher.guru/news/brics-30-countries-ditch-u-s-dollar-as-global-reserve-currency
Stick to the truth. “Idiotism” is being too selfish to understand the root cause of the Western syndicate against Russia. Remember! Ukrainians are more related to the Russians than the Westerners are. Westerners lose nothing but the Russians and the Ukranians are losing each other’s relatives. A dialogue is the only way forward.
If Russians are related to Ukrainians why are they killing them, military and civilian alike?
An please, don’t try and convince me its because the Ukraine is full of Nazis; a simple analysis of Russian politics today shows a country swarming in ultra-nationalist, right wing extremists whose ideals aren’t very far away from Nazi Germany’s.
The mighty Russian bear hasn’t done very well against a nation a quarter of it’s size, we have nothing to fear from this Fascist run dictatorship. Try being more Patriotic, and British.
Agree, so cancel money pit Tempest.
Sadly the Bear always comes back for another fight.
Seems to be running away from the fight at the moment, it’s not his land.
Good, necessary expenditure on kit and training. However let’s learn the lessons from Ukraine and expand our own AD both SHORAD for Army formations and longer ranger systems for static locations. Get the RAF Reg back to AD and let’s stop pretending they are light role infantry!
Recently the RAF reg were operating some MANPADS with LMM.
A second sky sabre regiment is really needed, but it seems very unlikely, especially without an uplift in troop numbers.
Agreed, the RAF Reg need to regain that role with at least a mixed Sqn per airfield with a command Troop, AD Troop and a ground defence Troop! Basic but we have to start somewhere. Sky sabre should be doubled in numbers and extra Batteries for the Army in the RA AD Regiments.
Sounds good to me 👍
RAF reg could also use some heavier firepower. A scimitar type vehicle would be perfect for the RAF regiment. A certain brigade from the army would also benefit from such vehicle.
With another regiment unlikely and an increase past 4 AD batteries in a single regiment unlikely, the only additional Sky Sabre that is realistic is if batteries are increased from 6 to 8 launchers.
RAF reg having 2 Sky sabre launchers at each RAF station would be very useful, but investing in infrastructure at dispersal airfields would probably be a better use of money.
Yes, have heard that, 6 to 8 in the 4 Batteries.
They could re role and shift posts around to form another Reg if they wanted to.
Or…and this is being incredibly brave, daring and therefore it will never happen….we could…..let’s just say increase the regiment numbers and have some defence of UK territorial key infrastructure like military bases and armoured units forward deployed.
The whole of the UK military is in need of more of everything across the board.
We have some exquisite equipment just not enough of it.
I suppose an 8 launcher battery in effect means 2×4 launcher batteries. I think the 6 launcher batteries still have 1 radar, but an increase to 8 launchers will probably see another radar as it’s quite unwieldy as a whole entity.
It would be big news if another reg was being formed. I can’t see it happening but I would love to be wrong on that.
32 reg would be a good rerole as small UAS should be a company level asset. With the size of the army it seems a waste to have an entire regiment dedicated to small, easier to operate UAS.
I suspect the RA will see an increase in batteries, primarily to bring the 2 MLRS regiments up to 3×8-9 or 4×6 strength.
For the RAF Reg, C-UAS is probably the most useful GBAD for them. In the UK, dispersal for the RAF would be better than GBAD.
32 is the obvious candidate isn’t it. Yes, small UAS surely should be at company level, or even at Troop level in RAC Recc formations.
Spike NLOS in the RA is also another candidate. Ideally that’ll be replaced by MCCO and CCAAW in the battalion AT platoons and LPS in the MLRS regiments.
Eventually larger UAS will have to go to AAC. UCAV like mojave would be a good supplement to Apache, ie instead of the 24 Apaches in a US aviation brigade, there could be 12 Mojave and 12 Apache with no loss of firepower.
Perhaps one of the benefits for our small Apache order.
Have they ever announced how many sky saber launchers they are buying?
Whilst a great step up from rapier, I suspect the number won’t be enough to defend much as they would be quickly saturated in the modern era of drone and glide bomb warfare.
I’ve not read of anything official. If we are using SS on drones we are wasting them.
CUAS and AA cannon fire cheaper surely.
Not enough!
Even if batteries were of 8, 40 maximum would’ve been ordered, likely around 30 as batteries are of 6 launchers. With one battery permanently stationed in the Falklands, the rest of the UK and Army are left bare.
There will be announcements in that direction, I’m sure, though sadly I don’t think they will include the RAFR and them getting GBAD beyond CUAS, which they do have.
I have heard of more launchers per Sky Sabre Battery, and more SHORAD Batteries, all yet unconfirmed.
Sky Sabre ER and a new vehicle for HVM Starsteak too replacing Stormer.
Agree with Louis, I’d like to see a 2nd Sky Sabre Regiment. Shift posts around and re role if they must, as as usual there will be winners and losers.
The RA will, at LAST, be the winner in this review, especially in MLRS expansion.
Wish they’d resurrect Fire Shadow while they’re at it. What could THAT be doing in Ukraine right now.
“Starsteak!” Lol Starstreak!!!
It’s still relevant for close battlefield protection against UAVs, attack helicopters and enemy close air support/ ground attack aircraft.
🌟 🥩… now that’s a concept… Lol 😁
“Sky Sabre ER”
Army have been quite open about wanting that.
Yes, it’s been mentioned for some time.
Starsteak, isn’t that overpriced gold plated meat that salt guy sells😂
Add in some mushrooms and onions please.. 😆
More launchers per Bty is the obvious and easier way forward, and it’s a start mate! The RA will be the winners for sure mate over the next couple of years, as Ukraine has opened up a few eyes to what is relevant and real on the modern battlefield.
Whats happened to Sky Sabre production? Is it actually happening? Nothing new seems to have surfaced any. where? I think there’s one unit in a car park some where in the UK and the other ones in Poland somewhere ! Are they looking at longer range CAMM-ER and or Samp/T-Aster? They should get a bloody move on and start covering the country with some protection….before the Ashes become the next big distraction…but that might be too late… starts today! Lol 😁 🏴 🇦🇺 🇬🇧
Didn’t the UK order 11 Giraffe radars recently too? Would they be part of the GBAD Sky Sabre CAMM batteries?
Yes, the original purchase was for 10 sky sabre batteries.
So 11 makes sense with one for R&D / training / STOROB!
I will repeat my usual spiel that given that Sky Saber is Sea Ceptor and that Sea Ceptor is launched from sealed tubes. It is perfectly possible to position containerised, Sea Ceptor on air bases and to remote fire, those using existing radar heads and other targeting sources.
The CAMM family of missiles does not need terminal guidance from the sea/land radar units. In the terminal phase, the seeker head in the missile does all the work.
The advantage of this approach is that, other than the capital cost, there is very little ongoing manpower cost.
I honestly don’t think there is the manpower to support enough, Sky Sabre batteries to protect all critical airbases and naval installations. I include munitions depots oiling locations as well as Portsmouth, Plymouth and Faslane.
Absolutely agree. 👍👍 It is in the highest tradition to render aid to a democracy under unprovoked attack by an authoritarian/totalitarian state; BUT, it is folly not to address issues on the home front (specifically GBAD) simultaneously.
Almost unwilling to raise the issue publicly, but sincerely hope NATO and/or UDCG has assigned some staff to develop plans/procedures for potential Russian employment of CBRN measures, especially if the Orcs’ strategic position is compromised by the current UKR counter-offensive. Mad Vlad is already indicted on war crime(s), believes this is an existential conflict for Russia, and has already personally experienced one US President (Obama) backing away/down from a clear red line (chemical weapons usage in Syria). Not enforcing proclaimed policy was and is heap bad juju and may tempt Mad Vlad to contemplate rolling the dice. There could be an ‘unfortunate’ explosion at Z nuclear complex, or a biological agent that is released that the Orcs magically have a vaccine or treatment for. Really probably multiple means/methods, almost ad Infinitum, that are plausibly just below threshold of WMD, triggering conventional US or NATO response. An adequate response could require a tremendous amount of CBRN gear, ( in addition to planning, training etc.) 🤔😳😱
What GBAD is actively deployed and manned back home in the US?
A little harsh methinks. The RAF Regiment’s mandate, has always been defence of RAF bases, as Infantry, as well as the other tasks they perform, such as providing personnel to liaise with UK ground forces.
If anything, their role has been scaled right back, from what it was in WWII.
Either way… with the hack-slash-cut and burning of the Army in particular, who else would defend airfields. Maybe G4S? 😵
Always rip it out of the RAF Reg so don’t worry, mostly tongue in cheek (son in law is one 👜😂) and if they didn’t do it maybe real soldiers will get dicked. Seriously through they have mostly been ground based defence, using originally Scorpion’s, then 81mm, then nothing, as the AD task was removed, and people pretended they were expeditionary war experts! Give them back AD, plus a Sqn for ground defence and let’s protect our remaining few vital airfields.
Defence of the home base is one of the prerequisites of a nations defensive posture and one we have neglected on every front even it seems at a basic level since the 1960’s or 70’s. Hence our beaches are insecure.
Not just the beaches that are insecure, but I don’t think we should mine them in peacetime! Just about everything is insecure except for air bases and barracks and naval bases and nuclear facilities.
Even then some of that protection is lightweight.
Exactly. Some will be lightweight, as it is impossible to provide the highest security to most, and it is not necessary either. The many where that level of security is needed, you do not see anyone accessing them. That includes some non MoD CNI types.
My experience on Ex Brave Defender (1985) was informative. I was in HQ 24 Inf Bde and the bde deployed to Scotland. For half the exercise we were Friendly Forces and defended various KPs and were attacked by ‘Spetznatz’. Then we reversed roles for the second half. Most of the KPs were not protected by armed personnel in normal peacetime.
Yes, I was talking just of MoD sites regards security levels, not the innumerable KPs of civilian infrastructure, it is not possible to guard them, and many are probably things like key road junctions, pipelines, and such, and not actually guardable.
This reflects our talk re Op Banner, the drops in available bodies makes it worse.
Do the AR Infantry Bns make much difference to the regular army Bdes ORBATS, beyond individual replacements and reinforcing Platoons, Companies. Could some be given a HD role just to guard KPs if the threat demanded it, or is that a non starter?
The AR Inf Bns (and Cav Regts and RLC Regts and REME Bns etc etc) can be deployed as complete battalions – it was just a weird blip of two years (2009-Jul 2011) when TA manpower was only deployed piecemeal (not as formed bodies) to augment reg units. The TA supplied complete divisions to the army ORBAT to 1967. In the 1980s 2 Inf Div included two TA brigades. The RY deployed as a near-complete unit on Op TELIC.
Wiki: “In Afghanistan too, large numbers of reservists deployed in a mixture of formed units and as individuals, until 2009 when the decision was taken to allow only individuals to deploy as reinforcements for regular units – no reason was given for this decision which went down very badly with the TA at all ranks. This restriction on formed units of reservists deploying was rescinded in July 2011, so it had only lasted for 2 years.
In the last few years two reserve infantry battalions, 6 and 7 Rifles, provided the framework battalion for peacekeeping in Cyprus (Op TOSCA) and over the winter 2020/21 the Royal Yeomanry provided a composite reconnaissance squadron for a six-month tour as part of Britain’s forward presence in Estonia.
Do the AR units make a difference to the Bde orbats? – yes. 3 out of 10 units in 12 ABCT are AR. They could deploy as formed units – or they could deploy composite subunits to reg units or they could deploy individuals to reg units. Flexibility is key. Much would depend on the degree of notice that was available.
Could some AR units defend KPs? I don’t see why not – as the HSF who had that role was disbanded in 1993. It would be best if they came from AR Inf Bns in 1xx, as 3xx would be required overseas.
Yes, so those within 19X.
My suggestion is just for infantry units, as we know so much of 101x,102x,104x,2x in Field Troops are found from the reserve RLC, REME, RAMC. Most of 2x in fact with so many AR FH, about to transform into MRMR.
Yes, guarding KPs is very much an Infantry job.
Graham, OT, news on Boxer.
Straight from UKAFC Twitter.
“Minister James Cartlidge re-affirms in Written Answer that funding has been allocated for 1016 BOXER. As of now, only 623 are under contract (Batch 1 523, Batch 2 100). Maybe the Defence Command Paper will have something more to say about the content of this 3rd batch of c400″
“Endorsed requirement is even higher and currently stands at 1305. UK had signalled interest in up to 1515 at moment of joining BOXER via OCCAR. Two drivers for the growth in numbers could be Mobile Fires Platform (if RCH 155 is picked) and replacement of STORMER HVM for SHORAD.”
“Also, small number of BOXER bridgelayers could be coming soon via Project TYRO for modernisation of assault and general support bridging. Close Support strand of TYRO as published included plan to add a number of “Wheeled Close Support” to complement TITAN (Challenger 2 base)”
Thanks Daniele, I am trying to get positive about Boxer which is hard for an old cynic like me who was happy for the Mech Inf to get MIV (Boxer) and the AI to get upgraded Warrior.
We were both expecting that the numbers just had to go higher than 623 to about 1,000.
Re-capping previous conversations, if a Pl Comd has an Infantry Carrier rather than a Ritzy C2 wagon, then his Pl need 4 Boxers in total, his Bn therefore needed 36 for ‘the bayonets’ and the 5 bns in the ACTs therefore need 180 Infantry Carriers; only 85 Infantry Carriers were announced in Tranche1. MoD stated on 19Jul18 that final number of total Boxer fleet may be 1500.
The other info you have is great too – thanks.
I too hope that the DCP expected sometime this month will say something about this 3rd tranche, in particular how they are to be armed. We know that Kongsberg RS4 Protector RWS was ordered a long time ago for Tranche 1 – that’s no good as it cannot take a beefy long range, stabilised 30-40mm cannon. So those wagons will be mere wheeled APCs, not IFVs – its as if the Saracen has finally got its sucessor, not the Warrior.
Having gone for wheeled infantry carriers (still not sure if they will keep up with tanks in difficult going) it makes sense to get RCH155 for the MFP and a SHORAD HVM wagon.
It seems that MoD did not order the Ajax Anti-tank missile carrier, equipped with Brimstone stand-off anti-tank missiles – ie STRIKER replacement – so hopefully they will buy a Boxer ATk variant, if there is one.
There is, Nigel has shared it here before. This, and the cannon, we really need to see.
If the RA are getting Archer, why is there a need for the Boxer RCH? Apart from chassis commonality. The RCH doesn’t bring anything extra to the party, except a great deal of weight. Plus I’m pretty sure that Archer has a faster set-up, fire and bug out time.
Good point. I agree. We only need one type of truck-mounted 155mm SPG.
1 Sqn saved my bacon on two occasions in Afghan. Bloody glad there were fairly close when out patrolling the perimeter of Kandybar!
G4S…😂🤣😂 The Russian Spetsnaz will be able to walk right onto an RAF airfield if they bribe the G4S guys with some pizza and a few dozen donuts and maybe a new TV to watch from their booth, so they don’t have to get up and do any real guarding.
“ The Russian Spetsnaz”
Well, we’ve seen how good they are…. Even Plod to deal with them.
Some within CND and Greenham Common Women back in the day apparently?
Their role was scaled back when they lost Rapier to the RA. But they do ground defence of airfields, as ever.
Agreed.
Is that big billion pound radar still being bought for somewhere? That money could get AD filled out a bit.
Project LEWIS. I’ve not heard any more on it, only speculation as to where it might be located.
Thanks I’d forgotten the name of it. Perhaps it’s an umbrella project to hide intelligence gathering equipment in. Not much point in knowing something bad is coming if u can’t do anything about it.
Well, we do have BMEWS at Fylingdales. 4 minute warning and all that.
It enables the higher ups to go and hide in their bunkers!🙄
Just wondering, do you doubt the Rockapes can do ground defence of an airfield? ie hold a little bit of ground!
No doubt in my mind they can effectively defend an airfield with the right kit and the right people! But as ever they are expecting to do more with less, and the powers that be blow smoke up their arses and make them out to be expeditionary warfare infantry, they are not!
And where the problem lies is that many of the blokes in the RAF Reg believe it! That belief in oneself is good as everyone should believe they are the best (that way they will work hard as fuck to achieve the mission) but you also have to know your limitations, otherwise people get killed! Until they do the same courses at the various infantry centres of excellence, for promotion (Brecon), snipers, P Coy etc etc then they can never prove themselves to the rest of the subject matter professionals in the Army! And the amusing thing is, aside from me it is my Son in law saying the same! They like to say they are one of the big three, I agree, reserves, Cadets, RAF Reg 😇👍
Thanks mate. Good comments.
When I was in Camp Bastion (Nov08-May09) our FP Coy was based on a Coy from 6 RIFLES – the OC and 2/3 of the guys were TA, remainder were regs. Great guys, very experienced and who did a great job. During my tour there were no enemy attacks on Bastion and the FP coy foiled a number of attempts. None of our people were killed or injured by enemy action out to several km from the Base.
Then the RAF lobbied for political reasons to take over FP of the base from the Infantry, providing a very large number of RAF Regt and RAF Police.
We all know how the Battle of Bastion, 14 Sep 2012, turned out.
Yes they loved roaming about Bastion in WMIKs then Jackals, then off for a cold latte telling their stories of “outside the wire”! Mate we have to be fair, we all had jobs to do, it’s just that some were better than others!!!! Cheers 😇
Could have been worse. It was a very well planned and orchestrated attack. One which was far above the means of normal Taliban operations. From the debrief that we got. They moved in small tactically trained teams. Again not the normal SOP. It was believed that they had outside help and training, specifically from the Country due south.
They tried a similar operation on Khandahar. However they got stopped at the wire. Unfortunately for them there were two Dutch Apaches returning from a patrol. The Romanians in the towers did a grand job of suppressing them and fixing them in place. Plus the Reg directed the Apaches on to target.
It’s funny how things got a lot more serious on both Bastion and Khandahar following the attacks!
I recall that KAF got hit a great deal by IDF. But I had not heard of Terry Taliban’s attempted attack there like the one on Bastion – interesting.
Terry decided to attack on the West side of the camp. Where the drones did the parachute landings. However, it was also the side that had the USMC hangars and flight pan along with the newly set up RAF compound with the Tornados. I think they knew that the east side of the camp housed the majority of the personnel. From memory, I think the RAF had only just moved in after the compound had been finished. So maybe a week or two after starting Tornado operations.
Yes, they pretty much fired every other day predominantly 107mm (of Chinese, Iranian or Pakistani origin) unguided rockets at the camp from usually 3 Mile mountain or the Lonely mountain directions. These were normally set up using cooking timers. Along with either a bit of straight wood or metal as a guide rail. Though mostly just a trenched furrow aimed in the camp’s direction. Very rarely did they use a mortar, as they learned very quickly early on that the area was heavily monitored and patrolled. They lost a lot of mortar teams early on
Thanks Davey. At Bastion we felt sorry for you guys getting malletted day in, day out. They were very reluctant to take us on at Bastion.
I find it amazing that they do not send their blokes through Brecon and other places. For an org that is quite small in reality And in this day and age of joint service purple ops.
Why? Inter service politics?
I support the need for them as in an expeditionary role where RAF aircraft and assets need securing better from the RAF than use an Army Infantry Battalion which is better utilised elsewhere, not as “Gate Guardians”
They also had the CBRN role until quite recently, and they do, so I understand, contribute a Platoon to SFSG, so they cannot be that bad.
Back in the day, in BAOR, when they manned both SHORAD and Armoured Squadrons, were they still doing their own courses then? You’d think using the same CVRT family as the RAC they’d send blokes through Bovington?
Maté totally agree, they are necessary and up to the job of protecting airfields and aircraft both in uk and overseas! And as you know totally onboard that if they didn’t do it a Rifle Coy or Battalion might get the job! The platoon to SFSG also include the comms and the ground to air comms so not a full platoon to be honest! But there will always be blokes good enough in every organisation, to be top notch, it’s just as an organisation the RAF Reg do believe their own press, and that can lead to shit rolling down hill and thinking they can achieve tasks they are not capable of! Cheers mate!
Daniele, the Rockapes had only part of the CBRN role – I think they provided one sqn whereas 1RTR provided the framework of RHQ, four other sqns and Echelon staff. The CBRN Regt has been all-army (28 Engr Regiment) since Oct 2011.
RAF Regt had their own training org, I think, at RAF Catterick and now at RAF Honington – don’t know if they did everything there or just the core stuff.
Morning Graham. have just made a detailed response, which I posted, saw an error and edited, and it has now been moderated as spam! 🙄
Thanks Daniele.
Hopefully they reinstate it, I expanded with some detail on your points and a bugger to write it all again.
I remember the fierce debate about who should lead the JNBC Regt on its formation. No-one in the army wanted to lead it. Much flippant commentry about the unglamourous nature of leading a unit with a lot of elderly ‘chemistry labs on wheels’.
Who operated the first Fuchs (11 Mk1 vehs quickly bought from Germany) in Gulf War1? Can’t remember and can’t find out.
The RY (a TA regt) lead the JNBC Regt 1996-1999, then it was 1RTR with a sqn RAF Regt,etc etc then 28 Engr Regt.
Musical chairs. No-one wanted the role.
I felt sorry for 1RTR – formed in WW1 to be professional tankies, and I knew them as a regiment of 4 units in the mid-70s, reduced to a single regt without a full tank role (less one sqn).
Unsure, but for some reason the QRL is in my head regards GW1 and Fuchs.
Yes, I remember when the RY had the role. It reinforced JNBC reg after.
You have a good memory. From:
https://www.qdg.org.uk/post-war-conflicts/
about 1st The Queens Dragoon Guards in GW1.
“A large number [of QDG] reinforced the 16th/5th Queen’s Royal Lancers and others formed a new Chemical Reconnaissance Troop mounted on German Fuchs specialist vehicles”.
Biggest issue for the Reg, is the lack of heavy weapons. Afghan showed the way, when they were given WMIK etc. Back in the day, when we had airfields in Germany. They had Scorpions and Sampson’s from memory.
The expectation was that they were to defend the airfields from the likely Soviet airborne assault. Which included the many variants of the BMD tracked armoured vehicles.
Roll forward to the present, last year we saw Russia try this airborne assault on two major Ukrainian airfields near Kyiv. Where the airborne forces initially took the airfields, then were awaiting for their 2nd wave reinforcements. Sadly for them, Ukraine was prepared and shot down a couple of Il-76s, that no doubt had their light armour aboard. But was enough to deter Russia from piling in their airborne reserves. Thereby allowing Ukraine time to retake the airfields.
Therefore the principle of taking airfields, is still a big part of Russia’s strategic planning. Which you can bet China have copied. Meaning the Reg should have the means to properly defend airfields, to either mop up or fix in place the attackers. Allowing the “Army” time to organize a response.
To my mind the Reg should get a number of Boxer versions. Specifically one that is a mobile air defense system, combining an auto-cannon with surface to air missiles. With both passive and active sensors used for acquiring and tracking of targets. Whilst another is an IFV much like the Lithuanian Vilkas. Included would be a fire support version, that mounts the AMOS 120mm gun-mortar.
Perhaps it’s time to stop pussy footing around?
Totally agree. The RA has too few assets and manpower to protect both the Army when deployed, airfields and key infrastructure from air attack.
This is great news the worst thing we could do is take the pressure off Putin, and to be perfectly blunt everything the Ukraine destroys increases our security.
I do just have a bit if a niggling feeling that we should have some input as to how the Ukraine deploy these assets.
We keep on seeing the Russians attacking infrastructure and civilians with ALCM, Drones, loitering munitions and even repurposed SAMs. Each morning we hear how many were launched and how many were shot down. My niggle / concern is when we see photos of modern Western supplied Tanks, ARV AND IFV which have been knocked out by Air and Helicopter launched ATGMs.
Where are the Gepards, Stormer HVM, Starstreaks or Stingers which we supplied so that this doesn’t happen ?
Western combined arms tactics are designed to operate in combination with Air cover and adequate self defence capability. We all know they have insufficient AirPower but they should have enough SHORADS to destroy Helicopter.
Hence my concern is that the Ukraine may be the assets to defend their cities but leaving the Battlegroups bereft of cover. Sorry but if that is the case then someone is making a massive strategic blunder. You don’t win wars by protecting your civilians and letting your army exposed to unnecessary loses.
Has anyone seen anything or heard any reports to suggest my concern is unfounded.
Seems perhaps that segments of their army still doesn’t understand NATO combined arms tactics or the value of night attack. I’m sure everyone was shocked to see two company scale attacks decimated on day one.
Besides which, attacks are best made in echelon and in series. Frontal assaults always end in expensive failure.
They need air cover yes they do but where was the ground based AA.
It’s the night attack but I’m annoyed about. When the NATO supplied kit is known to have superior optics why attack in daylight?
Not going to buy much air defense for 92 million
Nothing good to say again Ester? What a surprise.
Sorry if I’m ruining your fanboy experience. Must be a Russian troll.
I don’t think anyone would credit you with being a Russian troll just an *******
Your not ruining my experience I just find it curious as to why you always post negative, snide and anti UK comments like you’ve got a chip on your shoulder. What has the UK done to hurt you? Why the hatred?
Coming from the US fanboy who didn’t qualify for US citizenship 😂😂😂
He stuck at the southern boarder climbing the wall 😀
He thought Venezuela was a state 😀
😂👍
Esteban, about as welcome as an itch on the sole of your feet when driving
Great help for the Ukrainians got take your hat of to them putting up a hell of a fight .🤔 just wondering could we have some AD for the .UK like sky sabre maybe please PM. 🤗
What is really needed is NATO to enforce a no fly zone over Ukraine. This will stop the war, enable a ceasefire and start negotiations between Ukriane and Russia. Supplying F16s to Ukraine will achieve nothing. Without AAR they will be very limited. The radar range is much smaller than the Su35. It makes no sense. A much effective warplane for Ukraine would be Tornado, it has much greater range and payload, can stay extremely low, and can carry storm shadow, f16 cannot. In addition the f16 is not very well suited to rough airstrips.
That would mean declaring war in Russia as the only way to enforce one would be to be prepared to shoot down their planes. At what point why stop there, send in the ground forces and boot Russia out. No country or NATO are going to do that, as it would risk things going nuclear.
I suspect if the nuclear threat was off the table, then Poland would have joined the war long ago.
If nato or other forces had taken to the western half of Ukraine before the invasion maybe a no fly zone might of worked.
I agree I don’t think the F16 is some silver bullet that will magic the conflict away.
I was sent this last night by a mate, its a YouTube video on the Ukrainian counter offensive. (I haven’t been able to check its claims) but from what I have been reading so far, it does appear to relate just the known facts, with very little embellishment
Another 4 nations politicians/warmongers pushing for ww3 without the consent of their people, helping to create more hardship for the ukrainian people, more hardship for their own people by sending money to the washing machine that is that war.
CORRUPTION
Another drive by shooting….
Wonder how long it would take to train the Ukraine air force to fly mothballed RAF Tornado fighters / plus plenty of T1 /T2 light fighters can easily be fitted with sidewinder and also bombs for ground attack .
Pretty sure there aren’t any mothballed ex-RAF Tornadoes 😒
According to UK forces news a decent amount are mothballed and would not take much to fire back up .
Do you have a link?
AFAIK the only Tornado remaining are those such as Gate Guardians, gifted to museums, or as instructional airframes at the likes of Cosford.
The AMSU also stores spare, damaged, or time expired aircraft at RAF Shawbury.
Having just recently retired some numbers of Hawk T1 they will still be about, but I don’t think they would not be much use over UKR given the intensity of both sides AD systems.
Correct Daniele, the retired Tornado fleet would have been stripped PDQ to provide spares for the remaining foreign users, can’t find any record of any being mothballed 👍.
Looking at the information coming out of the Ukraine War. It seems Russia have found a gap in Ukraine’s counter-offensive air defences. Which they are exploiting with predominantly the Ka-52s, though Mil-24 and Mil-28s have also taken part.
This is due to the maximum range of a lot of Soviet era SHORAD as well as MANPADs. Along with the short/medium range radar guided air defence systems having to use radar to search for and track targets.
Russia is using the Lancet drone to take out these radar based mobile SAM systems. By having them triangulated by electronic surveillance. Which are then hunted by the loitering Lancets.
This has meant these Ukrainian mobile SAM systems aren’t keeping up with the leading elements forward advance. Leaving them vulnerable to Russian helicopter based CAS.
One particular attack on a Ukrainian armoured convoy was carried by a Ka-52 between 5 and 7 miles away. Using the Vikhr laser guided missile, which is supposed to have a published range of 8km (about 5 miles).
The majority of MANPADS and SHORAD that Ukraine has, have a maximum range of around 4 miles. Thereby leaving a window of opportunity to the Russians.
There is a SHORAD system that could close the gap, which is the Stormer equipped with Starstreak HVM. Which has a slightly longer range than Martlet. However, a Ka-52 firing Vikhr at its maximum range, is right on the limit of Starstreak. By using a purely passive IR sensor for air searches, means it can’t be triangulated by ESM equipment. Thereby making it harder for the Russians to hunt down.
In a one vs one engagement, where a Ka-52 sees a Stormer at max range and vice versa. Theoretically, Stormer should have the advantage. As Starstreak is four times faster than Vikhr. Plus as Vikhr is like the old Hellfire where it requires the target to be constantly illuminated by laser. As soon as this is lost Vikhr will fly an unguided ballistic path into the ground. Just have to make sure Stormer has moved by then.
There would an easy fix to extending the range of Starstreak for longer distance targets. Rather than use its current point and shoot method, as in fly directly to the target. It would follow a shallow ballistic path. Where it gains height above the target before falling on it. Just as most other medium to longe range SAMs do. By gaining height you will trade a little speed, but gain extra range. The three darts will still likely be traveling over Mach 3. But it will gain an extra mile or two.
That is one of the reasons why SHORAD needs a longer engagement range, so it can compensate for the longer missile stand-off distances. Thereby filling the gap that has developed.
My train of thought, is that for supporting the forward edge of contact or during advances/fighting retreats. You need a highly mobile vehicle mounting a shortish range air defence system, used for taking out small surveillance and suicide drones. But also the capability to take out helicopters firing stand-off missiles from greater range. Plus have a self defence capability, where the vehicle either through using its gun or missiles, can defend itself against both suicide drones and missiles.
The Gepard has clearly demonstrated that self-propelled anti-aircraft guns, still have their place in modern warfare. As they are not only effective but also their cost per shot is significantly cheaper than using a MANPAD. The major issue with them is that they can be attacked by radar homing missiles. Plus they don’t have a means of engaging targets past 3km, barring the Russian Pantsir and Tunguska. Though their missiles are generally mounted MANPADS.
Russia did field the Derivatsiya-PVO that mounts the naval 57mm autocannon to an amphibious 2S38 tracked vehicle, weighing 21t. It is quite an interesting vehicle in that it only has a thermal/optical camera for acquiring and tracking targets. Plus they were said to have developed a laser guided round for it, that could hit targets 8km away. There hasn’t been many, if any reports about the effectiveness of this weapon system used in combat.
Though it does have a similarity to the navalised BAe/Bofor’s 57mm gun, firing guided rounds such as Alamo or ORKA. Which both I believe, use semi-active laser homing for guidance towards the target. Though ORKA can engage targets out to 10km.
As good as Stormer is, its Starstreak missiles are still fairly short ranged. As the system was developed to counter threats designed in the late 80’s and 90’s. The threat has developed and moved the goal posts. Therefore the UK needs to look at replacing Stormer, that can better meet both today’s and future threats.
We already have lots of disparate parts that could be brought together to make a truly outstanding mobile air defence system. The CTAS 40 has a greater range than the 30mm. It can use programmable air burst rounds and can fire at 200rpm. Though the 57mm literally has more bang for the buck. Which is due to the ability to fire guided rounds. But can it be vehicle mounted?
Starstreak once locked onto the target, is damn near unjammable. However it requires the operator to maintain tracking the target. This can be done better with automation. But also the method of tracking the target can be done much better, whilst still using laser. Which would then give multiple target engagement.
Range can be extended by changing the missile from three darts to a singular unit. This would then allow for a larger warhead, a laser proximity fuze. But also allow more space for fuel. You could then go to town on the launch method, by incorporating the compressed air soft launch system that CAMM uses. Perhaps even giving it tail mounted reaction jets, so that it can be vertically mounted on a vehicle. It’s a pity Thales couldn’t team up with MBDA to further develop Starstreak.
If the Russian midget coward been blessed with half a brain he would have settled for a draw 15 months ago and got his Rapist conscript army out of Ukraine …
When the USA saved Russia WW 11 with the land lease deal and 1 billion dollar free never paid back loan & thousands of fighter planes tanks and troop carriers what the yanks supplied the Russians and much more .The British RN helped to deliver 7 million tons of aid to the Russians at great cost to our RN sailors and merchant sailors Putin should remember this when the Ukraine recieves a few weapons.. Russia was finished until the yanks supplied them with a fighting chance
So Holland, Denmark, the US and BAE (paid by the UK taxpayer) are collaborating to bolster the Ukrainian air defences.. cool.
It could save us hundreds of billions and thousands of lives .
Bit O/T but this could be the way to go…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-08/retired-australian-jets-step-closer-to-joining-ukraine-war/102452394
I think with the advent of Hypersonic missiles, Drones and AI the RAF has been left badly wrong footed. If they are controlling UK airspace they need to ensure they see if Home Defence could add a missile element which at present relies either on the RN or manned fighters.
I am not at all impressed with the time or lack of it the F35’s are spending practicing sea time on the carriers. Its pathetic.