German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said that closer defence ties agreed in a new friendship treaty between Germany and France aim to “contribute to the creation of a European army”.
The new Aachen treaty enshrines the sentiment that both France and Germany pledge to stand together in case of a military attack against either of them, duplicating a commitment already written into NATO.
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg welcomed the treaty:
“For decades, Franco-German cooperation has been essential for security and stability in Europe. The Aachen Treaty is a reminder of the historical significance of this partnership, of how far Europe has come since the devastation of the Second World War and of the importance of continuing to work towards a Europe that is whole free and at peace.
A strong French and German role in NATO will continue to be essential for European and Transatlantic security.”
The Secretary General earlier warned however that while stronger European defence can contribute to fairer burden-sharing within NATO, there was no need for duplication of efforts between NATO and the EU.
“NATO remains the bedrock for European security,” he said late last year.
“When I meet the EU Defence Ministers now, I expect us also to discuss the issue of European defence. I have welcomed EU efforts on defence many times, because I believe that projects such as military mobility, European Defence Fund, PESCO, all of that can contribute to fairer burden-sharing within NATO. It can complement NATO and it can also help to develop new NATO capabilities and also address the fragmentation of the European defence market.
So this is something I have welcomed many many times. But I have been equally clear about the fact that EU efforts must not compete with NATO, must not duplicate NATO, because NATO remains the bedrock for European security.
We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO Allies. And 3 of the four battlegroups we have deployed in the eastern part of the Alliance, in the Baltics countries and Poland will be led by non-EU Allies. And also geography matters.”
AFP also reported that Paris and Berlin will also create a new joint Defence and Security Council and seek to harmonise rules for military equipment procurement.
Can’t see what France gains from this. They’re going to be lumbered with a massively inequitable burden of defence spending and capability for Europe given that really only the UK and France are true military powers and one of those wants precisely nothing to do with the others
Remember France’s most important strategic objective remains to hug Germany as closely as possible, politically, economically and if necessary militarily so that another European war is never again possible.
France and the UK are working more closely than ever before with the UK/french millitary alliance and cooperation and in future the integration with our army’s for war fighting, we will be there closest millitary partner.
France and Germany have heard of NATO, right? What would an EU Army add to that? They are not going increase defense spending or recruitment. The only thing would be to separate Europe from the United States, which was a long-term Soviet, now Russian, goal.
Why would those two partner. Firstly none of their kit is interchangeable, secondly France is admittably an international player who wants to play a rile similar to ourselves and American, wearas Germany wants no international military presence at all. Also France is still tieding up their empire such as in Mali.
Exactly, this will be a disaster for one or both of them. They will both want to protect their own defence industrial base which is where the only serious savings can be made through economies of scale. France will likely gain from a 50/50 joint development of a MBT to replace the leclearc considering how poorly it performed on the export market vs the leopard. Most of their other vehicles are already very modern and just coming into service.
Yes, a marriage made in hell! The first hurdle will be demonstrating against Russian actions that may manifest in the coming years. We all know German is too beholden on imported Russian energy, to fully support any tough action from France. German foreign policy tends to be slower moving than France, that vacillates like a fiddlers elbow,(from one new president to the other) and that lack of compatibility is where it will falter. In the meantime, this new commitment to defend Europe could persuade the US-NATO doubters (a growing body in Washington) to increase pressure on Trump to make substantial withdrawals from Europe. In the meantime, the new well-meaning alliance will bend and buckle at the first hurdle? Retention of UK forces in Germany must now become a longterm UK policy, in order to reduce reinforcement time from the UK of vital first response armour deployment.
Why? Why spend billions garrisoning a country with a larger population, a bigger GDP and enough wealth to garrison and protect themselves, they just choose not to.
Does the UK ever get thanked or appreciated for spending billions of taxpayers money guarding and protecting Europe for the last 75+ years.
Answer is simply no.
By the blood of our soldiers are their lands kept safe.
Pull out, leave the EU to it. They can have ever closer ties, an EU army, EU secret state police, EU everything. I no longer care. Good luck to you all in Europe. The UK is out.
No, Mr. Bell, the very fact we are in Germany is to demonstrate the UK’s commitment to NATO and to have meaningful assets on the ground closer to the Russian border. Not being based in Germany could lead to a heavy loss of life just getting back a European mainland foothold. As respect to those who gave their lives on D Day, we can not relinquish that advantage. I don’t think either the British or Germans believe we are there to defend the Motherland, we are there to defend ourselves.
Pulling UK forces out of Germany, The Baltic Stares, etc should have all been part of May’s big stick in the Brexit negotiations. Why defend countries that are proving to be hostile to us? We should look to the Five Eyes rather than Europe with regard to defence.
Maurice 10. Are you aware that as far back as the late seventies it was calculated the net cost of BAOR and RAFG was approximately £1bn per annum. In todays money that would be £12bn. That is pure cost before a penny was spent on either equipment or personell. Or to put it another way it would equal the entire overseas aid budget so many of you are outraged by.
I would strongly suggest the US Airforce withdrawal from the UK Mildenhall airbase to Germany, be reconsidered?
Because the Germans are so much more pro American than ourselves, NOT.
after 2020 there will be no british forces in germany. they will all be back in the uk
An alliance of the failed conquerors and the cheese-eating surrender monkeys… I’m sure that’s got Putin shaking in his boots!
Yes the Germans can bring at least 14 Eurofighter into active combat and at least 2 possibly 3 battalions of armoured infantry with a few squadrons of their glass jawed leopard 2 tanks.
I am sure Putin’s most worried about Franco-Germanic military cooperation.
Did you hear the one about the new German frigate that lists to starboard and needs ballast so it doesn’t capsize?
Yep F125 class, cost £850 million each. Weakly armed. Leans 7 degrees to starboard. Has to carry 450 tons of ballast to counter the lean and thus has so much top weight the multi mission bay cannot be used.
German engineering and efficiency. Look into my eye. It’s all hyperbolic BS.
Not to mention that missile misfunction they had last year.
For a so called free trade organisation I don’t see why it needs its own laws, courts, constitution, parliament, flag, anthem, president and now an army.
I don’t know of any other free trade agreement that has these thing, I know this may sound ridiculous, and please stop if I’m wrong, but maybe its more than that and they are working towards a fully united EU state, which may already exist. Crazy I know, don’t tell hard core remainers that though! And perhaps the reason they have had to implement this through the backdoor without the consent of the people is because the people of Europe are so vastly different from each other, and it is almost impossible to integrate with singular identities, so they break down local national identity and culture and replace it with a European identity!
Sounds insane I know, its not as if it was said in the agreement signed by Edward Heath that one day EU countries may have as much power as a US state.
It sounds crazy and many people won’t want to hear the truth as they’ve been told that if you want to control your own country and military your racist and xenophobic and nationalistic views are despicable because Hitler was a nationalist!
Crazy, but that my theory!
When the UK and my fine country(currently lead by a re**rd) Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, it was a free trade deal, but the whole idea of a federated state was there from the beginning, but they’ve had to build it on slowly due to past rivalry, this is the next step in that plan!
All correct Keith.
One day when it’s too late, people may realise and regret.
Too late as they will make sure there are no more referendums.
This country is ******* , as has been seen in another thread, it’s all about the economy apparently and nothing else matters, certainly not the concerns of the majority who voted for independence, not to be richer or poorer.
Tell that to the scots nats….
Germany taking control of Europe by stealth.
No way could this be happening if the two proud generations were still alive!!
Is this their “Country fit for Heroes”? Would they be proud of today’s London and other similar Towns and Cities?
Was Wilfred Owen right when he penned, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Her Majesty has probably been pressed into her plea for unity, because of the Very Real possibility of Civil Unrest!
But do they not see that this undermines the Democratic Process even further!
Germany and France have been at the centre of European unrest for centuries, this time they are operating by stealth, to impose their hidden agenda.
Can they not learn from the Five Eyes, how openness, co-operation and trust, is the way to close relations and peace between nations?
Here I Endeth my cynical rant.
The Germans have just taken a 55% stake in BAE armoured vehicles, which by the way is part of Rheinmetall’s plan to become top dog in the defence business. I haven’t heard much protest about this transaction in parliament?
I would prefer adopting BAE’s Blacknight CH2 lep and purchasing refurbished M1’s to boost the UK tank fleet, and at the same time, lubricate a possible collaboration on the M1 replacement in 15 – 20 years from now? The latter could generate income for the UK economy, where buying Rheinmetall could result in fewer fiscal opportunities? Longterm dependence on European weapons may have logistic and political problems going forward, as an independent state?
Yaaaàaawn, here we go again eh son! Boring, repetitive but amusing in your constant dislike for the English and your SNP narrative. Being a troll must be boring, but an owned troll even worse eh son.
TH, Were you “Fiddled with” by the fine upstanding SNP former “Leader” per chance ?
Yes he was and he loved it, part of the SNP membership process, touch your toes son.
I should point out I come from a British family, and consider myself British and Irish, and I don’t know if my views are of the general public.
I don’t think there is any real sentiment that independence was a mistake, but don’t believe its all just Brit hating, IRA loving republican either. Most Irish still do see the Brits as family, and the two countries have a close bond that hopefully transcends anything that the EU has, and I would honestly support Irexit in favour of closer ties with the UK, i don’t know if that will be a popular opinion though, as most in Ireland are brainwashed into thinking the EU is all roses and don’t see that it is taking away the rights and power of the government, which is pretty corrupt anyway. And they can’t see the EU is only using Ireland as a pawn to destroy the UK for daring to leave, and will dump them like a hotcake when it suits them, its already been confirmed that the EU will force Ireland to erect a hard border, but the media blames the British for some reason, even though its the EU’s fault that they don’t want a sensible deal!
But I do think people are waking up and realising that the Brits are actually Ireland’s true allies and have always looked after Ireland, even if their is the odd fight! And if the EU forces Ireland to erect a border it will definitely open some eyes to who Irelands real friends are!
On your point on Scotland and Wales leaving the union, I believe their would be a lot of regret and looking back at that decision, and it would be a very stupid thing to do, and is very much a divisive issue, but I hate to tell the truth TH, the people of Scotland and Wales don’t want to leave, as was proven in 2014. Thats the problem with echo chambers TH, you can only hear people who say the same stuff as you.
When Ireland left it caused a civil war between the pro union and republicans, and their was doubt for a long time after independence.
On my Visits to Ireland,(Eire) I have found only Really Lovely, Kind and Friendly People. On a night out in Dublin, I and a mate ( RM) were given a mini Guided tour of all the best parts by a really Friendly Taxi Driver. Free of Charge ! The B and B Lady was Utterly Charming too. This also goes for the Scots, Welsh and Pretty much every other Foreign Country I’ve ever Visited. It’s not the People that cause Wars, It’s the So Called Leaders. I know lot’s of people from lots of Countries and I’m entirely comfortable with that Thought.
Unfortunately it’s always the case.
yep, unfortunately the people with the most extreme views, who are almost always the minority have the loudest voices!
Public opinion in Ireland at change after Brexit, because if the Eurocrats budget and future spending plans aren’t reigned in, then Ireland will move from a net beneficiary of EU spending to being a net contributor to the EU budget. It could prove quite a shock when the public finds for the first time its giving more than getting back to grants, and its money is going to finance much larger nations like Poland.
(The UKs net contribution to the EU was approx equivalent to all the grants Poland received from the EU.)
Public opinion in Ireland at change after Brexit, because if the Eurocrats budget and future spending plans aren’t reigned in, then Ireland will move from a net beneficiary of EU spending to being a net contributor to the EU budget. It could prove quite a shock when the public finds for the first time its giving more than getting back to grants, and its money is going to finance much larger nations like Poland.
(The UKs net contribution to the EU was approx equivalent to all the grants Poland received from the EU.)
Oh, I never realised I went to a Public School.
Owned yet again TH son, every time son, so easy. Oooh let’s compare nonces, you childish Bell end.
Oh dear your reply to Keith didn’t go as expected did it son you expected him to be a frothing English hating paddy, when he has turned out to be sensible and well read, which is contrary to you my son. Oh dear, never mind eh. Oh by the way I expect a response, and in doing one you are owned once more. Its so easy.
Dense Harold, me? Wow some of you people really do presume things don’t you. If you don’t understand what I am doing then it’s not worth trying to explain.
English people – and indeed those fro many other ethnic backgrounds – who live in Scotland took part in the independence referendum and indeed, many of them voted for Scotland’s independence.
Funny that isn’t it?
Another independence referendum is not far away now. I anticipate a different result.
Oh dear, you cannot resist whining and trying to get the last word, and in doing so you are doing exactly what we expect and demand, troll like comments which we laugh at, therefore you are owned, as usual son.
Gunner, I love the Scottish People too, it’s just a few that I don’t really Get on with. Mainly the ones who can’t Accept the Results of a VOTE. It’s the same in England at the moment, So much Hate and Nastiness after a VOTE. Just why These People can’t accept a Democratic process Is beyond me to be honest. All I see is Hate and Nastiness. Then again, You ain’t seen nothing yet, Oh no, Just look out If that Vote Is turned over. We’ve all been very Quiet so far.
Ooooooooooh the C word ha ha ha ha. Owned son, see, you cannot resist it. I expected a reply, and this time you have given up the pretence of being aloof and pedantic, you have resorted to quite a high level of abuse, and therefore, as I have been saying, you have bitten to what I have fed you, and you are still owned. Hilarious son.
Iron Brew or Special Brew fueled post TH ?????
And once more, owned son. So easy, this is sooooo easy.
Actually, TH, as I read this entire conversation I believe Airborn is either a practically illiterate, unintelligent, 400 lb woman with a chip on her shoulder and a cup full of propaganda fed to her by the people working under the skirt to take over your countries or much more likely, Airborne is a young, poorly educated, radical import, planted here to cause shit and then glean from the conversations anything useable for his masters. And airborne? Highly unlikely unless military in the UK has fallen to such a degree that they are now hiring carpetbaggers and twelve-year-old gamers from their mother’s sofas. Look at the way he speaks. Either way, having a dialogue with him will only lower your IQ and waste your precious moments on this earth. And
History, starting to repeat itself?
Like I’ve written before, I’m around Germans on a regular basis, and when you get them to open up, there are still undertones of Anti-Semitism and a real desire to be in control.
I wouldn’t trust France or Germany; together, they spell problems for the UK!
Maybe our future lies in our past, The Five Eyes alliance!
No worry, when the Russians kick the German arses the French will be ready to announce their surrender.
Look Europe needs to be able to defend itself so our country’s should all put in troops for a Europeans defence army that would work perfectly together, but just now most nations have completely different equipment, supply chains, ammo, ways of fighting, so I see no problem with it, it’s ok for UN troops go work together under the UN flag but we can’t have EU? and the EU works together for everything else!.
It’s not like EU countrys will stop having independent army’s it’s just small battalions from each country or what ever number of personnel! will work together more closely under one command structure. Why not? Europe needs to get stronger and boot USA out of Europe, all the Americans do is slag us off for having weak defence and that’s bullshit, Europe has lots of weaponary and after the USA is the strongest on earth! And USA chooses to have bases in europe for its own ends not Europes, it’s not out of the kindnes if there hearts. I’m a total USA fan but there’s some areas I just don’t agree with.
We Europeans need to spend more of defence say 3% of GDP would do it. And France and the UK would be Europes nuclear deterrence so should recieve funds from European nations or the EU for that protection….
The ultimate aim IS for national armed forces to be absorbed into some greater EU Army — I believe the plan for an EU Air Force is more advanced. Consider the prospect of Eurocrats being in control of a military? The same Eurocrats who pushed on with the Euro even though they were warned allowing in countries like Greece, autaly and Spain with non-converging economies would lead to financial disaster. The same aeurocrats who pushed on with their expansion plan for the Ukraine resulting in Russia’s invasion of Crimea. These Eurocrats care nothing for the citizens of Europe, they only care for their dream of an ever greater, integrated EU.
Does that policy sound familiar from 1939’s Germany?
The next major European war will be as a result of away ambitions. We should not be involved.
The ultimate aim IS for national armed forces to be absorbed into some greater EU Army — I believe the plan for an EU Air Force is more advanced. Consider the prospect of Eurocrats being in control of a military? The same Eurocrats who pushed on with the Euro even though they were warned allowing in countries like Greece, autaly and Spain with non-converging economies would lead to financial disaster. The same aeurocrats who pushed on with their expansion plan for the Ukraine resulting in Russia’s invasion of Crimea. These Eurocrats care nothing for the citizens of Europe, they only care for their dream of an ever greater, integrated EU.
Does that policy sound familiar from 1939’s Germany?
The next major European war will be as a result of away ambitions. We should not be involved.
Dream on mate. We have been spending tens of billions a year since 1945 to defend and protect Europe. Never received any thanks from our beloved friends and allies. You are most welcome by the wsyEU for your freedom and right to self-determination.
The EU is never going to pay the UK for its nuclear deterrent that they all situnder safe and sound.
I think 5 eyes and Anglosphere alliance is the future with other nations that want to join us welcome too. Japan, South Korea, possibly India. The EU can go off do its own thing egdominste Europe and forge the Greater Germanic Republic with their French lap dogs. The UK is better served out of it militarily. This is what is making the Poles worried. They do not want to be sandwiched between Russian aggression and a new EU federal superstate controlled by Germany. Has anyone in Europe actually voted for this federalist ion by stealth approach. The Italians are finally waking upto the issue.
The future is the federated euro super-state and from there the federated global super-state. watch any sci fi movie – Star Wars, Space 1999, etc. You will notice that nations and even species come together in alliance. That is the future.
What’s the alternative? Independent Britain? where does it stop? Then independent England, Scotland, wales and from there we’ll go to the Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia. Medieval times!
We’ll get there
I have no problems with the United Nations one day evolving into a federal governmental body to respresent the whole of humanity. But I’d want all of its constituent states to be (a) democratic, and (b) real nation states not artificial unrepresentative constructs. The EU fails on both these criteria, the U.K. doesn’t.
I would rather Nuke the whole planet out of spite than allow the UN to ever gain that much power. America should be ruled by Americans, Britain should be ruled by Brits, Russia by Russians, the Japan by the Japanese, and Chinese by the China.
Every invention of note is made in America, the UK, the individual European countries, Japan, and China. Almost all of the world’s wealth is in these countries and their Satellites also. No globalist organization should have a say in the matter. Least of all the incompetent and corrupt study in vanity known as the UN.
It is a organized that operates against the constitutions of over half it’s members. It operates by it’s own admission to circumvent and overthrow the Constitution of the United States and is therefore as much a clear and present danger as any terrorist. It is only the UN’s ability to beguile pseudo intellectuals at university that keeps it from the hangman’s noose.
Least we forget the UN is not responsible to an electorate. If it came to being ruled by an unelected superstate, I’d not go as far as nuking the whole world, but I would go with a well thought out rebellion
At the moment. And many member states of the UN are dictatorships which don’t practice democracy. So of course it’s currently flawed.
But it’s no worse than the British Parliament of Charles the First day, where the vast majority of people in the U.K. were disenfranchised. Hopefully the UN can evolve into being a democractic structure, as I hope our own Parliament can – it’s far from perfect at the moment.
Aachen is a symbolic location for this agreement as its the home of Charlemagne and the Carolingian Empire, which for a brief period of time covered most of Europe.
I just can’t believe how easily Macron is lying down to appease Germans on the matter of military unity and to risk French overall sovereignty. Not mentioned in this article is a recent statement that the French UN Security Council seat would be shared with Germany – as there’s no realistic hope of Germany getting their own. Whatever will future French generations think of this idiot?
Macron is simply following through on previous EU proposals that the U.K. and France should give up our permanent seats on the Security Council for the EU to have one. Thankfully both countries rejected this outrageous proposal, but I think that’s where Eu Federalist Macron is heading.
You’ve got to be kidding. A single world state would be the stuff of nightmares and something to take up arms against.
Funnily enough me and my wife were discussing that very thing tonight. In hundreds maybe thousands of years time when it is just humanity going into space, may be meeting aliens, earth may be at peace with each other.
Now we are In transition and it is very different.
Then again it may never be so unless Islam has absorbed western Europe by then.
Islam? Nail, hammer, head, hit. The EU is falling apart because at the time of the Lisbon treaty it declined to include a formal recognition of Europe’s Christian heritage.
Religion Sucks, It causes nothing but grief.
Well, a lot of people would share your view. My own view is that whether you are talking about Stonehenge Druids and Egyptian priests telling farmers when to plant their crops or Christian priests promoting the Jesus role model of grace under pressure both individuals and communities need ‘religion’ to manage the results of environment and evolution. Surviving is a good start, that’s why we have armed forces.?
Agree.
My comment was more to do with the widely held view that Islam is more intolerant of other faiths, so my vision if humanity at peace with other humans and out into the wider galaxy is highly unlikely until we stop killing each other.
See historical posts from farouk on this very site for just how tolerant his fellows were to him, simply for wanting to be a Brit, regardless of colour creed or faith.
For at the end of the day, one can be loyal to the UK and have it in your heart regardless of colour or faith.
The problem is with the segregation and intolerance establishing itself in western Europe, underpinned by the PC lobby, this sadly will only get worse.
Rear Gunner, EXACTLY. It totally Amazes me that so many people are Dumb enough to actually believe all that Crap. “Allah Is Great” My Frigging Arse. Blow yourself Up in the name of Allah, Yup Feel Free but just don’t kill Innocent People. It’s not just Islam though, It’s pretty much all Religion In my book. Not to mention the Pedophiles, Exploiting Young people, How Disgusting are They ?
No one who has ever been near death for any length of time rejects belief in God.
Also those who are religious find atheists to be even moronic than the atheists find the religious. As they can see without seeing and fail to grasp what is front of them. Atheists always fail to answer one question “why?”, instead only answering only “how” at every juncture a question comes up then expect to be applauded for trivial knowledge that didn’t answer the original question.
I do not have to keep my religious beliefs to myself any more than the atheists do. In their drive to call everyone who doesn’t join them in their sad solitary existence stupid.
The logic of it’s the Current Year is even more asinine a justification to not believe. Just as it is justify any other policy personal or political.
Elliott. Thanks, You Just proved my point. Actually you just underlined It Big Style.
Rear Gunner, Mate, I hate to say this but, Father Christmas is not real. But He’s a feck of a lot more believable than God.
Farther Christmas is real you take that back……he brings me presents every year so I have impirical evidence.
“Force my beliefs on you”- No I did not say that, nor did I recommend holding a gun on anyone forcing them to say the Apostles Creed. Stop projecting what YOU think for what is actually said.
What I said was “I don’t have to keep my religious beliefs to myself anymore than the atheists do”, to simplify I don’t give a single solitary damn what you do. But I have the right to do as I wish so long as I am not harming others.
Comparing say Methodists, Presbyterians, Southern Baptists, Orthodox Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Hindus, and even Christian-Animists to radical Islamic Jihadis is not only incorrect but a logical fallacy. Their has been zero religious terrorism from those groups in the more than 200 years since the Founding of the United States. Their has been terrorism rather memorable acts in fact from the Jihadis that is the only “religious” terrorism the US has ever had. Lumping them together with the other groups is either intellectually lazy or dishonest or both.
Don’t worry Daniele, I’m pretty sure the human race is on the fast track to fuckdom within the next couple of hundred years. Whatever species crawls out of the next ( human caused) mass extinction event may be able to use the geographic evidence we will leave behind to actual have a future in space. Although they may be alone as the latest theory’s are that intelligent tool users will naturall overrun then destroyed their environment and cause their own extinction, hence no aliens in space.
Cheerful but evidence suggests we are just about at that point.
Them Hemorrhoids are such a pain in the arse.
And all because of Borders, Religious division, Greed and Politics. But what do I know, I’m just an Intellectually Lazy Atheist Public Schoolboy.
You ILAPSB and your crazy ideas…
Jonathan. You Got me. What’s ILAPSB, I’m Beside myself with Intrigue/Worry ?
ILAPSB (Intellectually Lazy Atheist Public School Boy)
Very dangerous precedent only made possible because we’re leaving and can’t veto this insanity.
Interesting debate on European empire and world superstate. Where’s Luke Skywalker when you need him?
It may just be a reaction to a couple of perceived risks:
1) NATO is fragile as hell and just as likely to fall apart as stay together when Russia finally pushes it to far with its “War in peace” policy.
1) The biggest military power in the EU is about to walk away from the power block and it’s looking like relationships are not guaranteed to be as warm and cuddly as they could/should be.
It’s Europe’s loss. I don’t think they understand just how big that loss Is. I also believe that other “Members” are looking on and observing all the Events, just Biding Their time. A Europe that gives the UK an Easy Exit would be stupid with so many other Country’s watching and waiting for their own time. Hence the Hard time they are giving us. (Oh Bollocks, I’m getting all political. )
You are right, but I don’t just blame the EU. if our political classes could at least “for the good of the nation” agree which way the sun rises in the morning we would have a shot at a mutually beneficial exit deal. As it is infighting in the Tory party mixed with Mays need to preserve the Tory party over national interest and Corbin following through with a chance to damage the Tory’s before national interest means we are heading for frightful relationship with the EU.
I am disappointed in our political classes.
Totally agree Jonathan.
The party politics Re shameful.
Mays needless election in 2017 started it.
200 Labour Mps voting against their constituents who voted leave is another “interesting”” phenomenon.
Are they meant to be representing their constituents or not?
If not, what is the point of the MP.
And if one days they are representing their constituents, but the minority who voted remain, then there are some very funny things going on in this country as whats the point of a majority vote.
Just to remind though the EU themselves have breached article 50 refusing to discuss trade before the withdrawal agreement is agreed.
All parties know this but it is conveniently ignored so a “deal” is placed on brexit.
A deal that is not brexit at all.
>smile<
Aachen is a symbolic location for this agreement as its the home of Charlemagne and the Carolingian Empire, which for a brief period of time covered most of Europe.
I just can’t believe how easily Macron is lying down to appease Germans on the matter of military unity and to risk French overall sovereignty. Not mentioned in this article is a recent statement that the French UN Security Council seat would be shared with Germany – as there’s no realistic hope of Germany getting their own. Whatever will future French generations think of this idiot?
This is all about defence sales. An EU military will be buying French fighters, ships and missiles and German armoured vehicles, artillery and small arms. Simple as that.
Really TH, you should look at your history, Scotland led the charge. As part of the UK the Scots have just been as ardent millarists as the English, infact more so in some cases. The Scots were just as much an engine for British imperial expansion as the English.
It’s the thing that really irritates me about the nationalists when they put forward this Scotland as victim message.
The only true national group in the the Union that can say they were victims of the English were the the welsh. Wales joint they union not as an independent nation but as a conquerors one.
The Irish have the right to say they were victims of the English and Scots as well, and never felt part of the Union hence the troubles.
Jonathon, it’s pointless trying to reply to the SNP slightly retarded troll, he feeds on peoples normality and interests. Have a read of my interaction with him, he is owned by me, and he doesn’t like it mate. Do you want to borrow him? To have some fun with?
Oh come on son, you have posted that exact same thing twice, that was pathetic, you need to stop getting rattled and engage brain. Owned!
Can I give him back please….
Ha ha ha still going son? I see I have gotten to you, as you are biting and frothing on every post. Guess what son you are owned, at my beck and call, dancing when I say. Carry on dancing son, you are my toy.
And you have put that twice Harold, TH with another Avatar maybe? Thank you Harold as now I will totally ignore you and your duplicated TH posts. Have a nice afternoon.
Fascinating Airborne.
Harold is another long time Troll who bleats about veterans for peace.
Have not seen any posts for many a month, so interesting it wakes up now.
Like the other one any sensible debate is a waste of your time, and credible objections posted back will be easily ignored.
Daniele I have noticed Harold has not posted much recently, and kaboom, there he is. I know it may seem childish responding to TH, but I like to see him get angry and abusive, as it does show his real narrative and attitude. I realise he is just a racist troll, but it is easy to get him to bite and snap. I will try to keep my comments more to the subject matter in hand, and maybe release the SNP troll form my power……but I cannot promise it lol.
And the term dense, not a common form of abuse nowadays, but one which TH has used before. He isn’t even smart enough to pretend to be someone else.
You will also notice Harold almost always appears in together with TH. Has for over a year now.
Off Topic slightly, There Is a Sky News Article about the MOD Stockpiling in preparation for Brexit in Cyprus, Gibraltar and The Falklands. it also mentions Marchwood, the Dedicated Supply Port.
“English militaristic”… Let’s not forget Scotland’s failed military adventure to establish a colony in Panama by military force; the Darien Scheme. It bankrupted Scotland and had you coming to England to be saved: England purchased and wrote off your national debt.
This is unrelated to YOUR banks, going bust in 2008 and having to be rescued by the Bank of England. But there does seem to be a recurring theme here… ?
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^^^^^ X2
I have no problem with the EU moving towards closer defence cooperation, which is all that is actually envisaged at this stage.
+ NATO Europe militaries duplicate in virtually every area, it has for instance more officer training academies and air force OCUs than the USA, China and Russia combined! It also has more varieties of tank, ICV, SP gun, helicopter, fast-jet combat and support aircraft, destroyers, frigates, submarines etc than these countries combined! Cooperation and joint procurement are a way of reducing unnecessary duplication and strengthening the front line.
That is all that is contained in PESCO, along with joint training and signals network, IIRC.
+ The main reason for closer European working is that the US requested and required it. They have been doing so for years, but Obama was the first to spell it out publicly in very plain language: the USA is pivoting from Europe to Asia/Pacific and Europe will have to play a larger part in defence operations in its hinterland in the future. Hence why NATO Europe led the earlier operations in Kosovo and Bosnia, then Libya, Somali pirates, Mali etc. The USA expects Europe to do its own heavy lifting in its own back yard and will only return to Europe in force if it faces a major threat.
So this so-called ‘Euro army’ is the result of US pressure rather than European enthusiasm.
+ Need to bear in mind that the EU is the world’s 2nd largest economy, just behind the USA, still a good way ahead of China. It would be surprising if it did not eventually have a commensurate, centrally-led armed force, rather than being bullied by Presidents from the USA, Russia and wherever else. Trump’s volatility and knee-jerk policies bring that day forward, as it is impossible to rely on the USA much at the moment.
All that will happen is that the EU 27+ will develop closer cooperation, joint design and procurement in every field and joint ways of working. The UK will be out of all that, a small military on our little island, with what remains of a defence manufacturing sector, entirely dependent on US policy, doctrine and equipment.
This has all the makings of a right old cluster**** in defence terms.
Fellow Europeans,
With France and Germany moving towards ever closer military cooperation with the aim of building the European armed forces by May 2025, makes me wonder why Europe can’t focus on putting all its energy into restructuring NATO so that it becomes central to bringing long-term peace to a continent that has seen two devastating wars and Cold war thinking that will always be in the shadows to flare up at anytime. A new NATO needs to incorporate every European country, along with Russia into its structure, by doing so it will start the process of reducing 11.5 million military (regular & reserve) personnel, and to remove once and for all, past cold war thinking. By accepting Russia into NATO as an equal member, will open up new opportunities in resolving the most sensitive of all issues – nuclear weapons, I feel that a modern version of the START talks could take place, the main difference this time will be for the United Kingdom and France, and hosting members Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey to come to the table as well, and for all nine countries to sign a treaty of intent to reduce the current nuclear arsenal to a more acceptable level that also covers future basing in Europe.
United States – Warheads (deployable 1,600 currently – reduce to 800)
(total 6,450 currently – reduce to 3,225)
Russia – Warheads (deployable 1,600 currently – reduce to 800)
(total 6,490 currently – reduce to 3,225)
France – Warheads (deployable 280 currently – will not deploy operationally)
(total 300 currently – will be dismantled and to destroy stockpile)
United Kingdom – Warheads (deployable 120 currently – will not deploy operationally)
(total 215 currently – will be dismantled and to destroy stockpile)
Host Members – will sign to make their countries nuclear free compliant in the future.
Its long overdue for Europe to be at peace with its self, and work more towards showing the way for other continents to make the world a better place.