No decision has yet been taken on the future of the Challenger 2 tanks that will not be upgraded under the Challenger 3 programme, the UK Defence Journal understands.
In a written parliamentary answer to Conservative MP Ben Obese-Jecty, defence minister Luke Pollard said the government had not yet determined what would happen to the 140 Challenger 2 platforms excluded from the upgrade programme. The Challenger 3 effort will see a portion of the existing fleet rebuilt with a new turret and 120mm smoothbore gun to form the British Army’s future main battle tank capability.
Responding to the question, Pollard stated: “A decision on what will happen to the Challenger 2 platforms not being used as part of the Challenger 3 programme has not yet been taken.”
The British Army originally operated more than 220 Challenger 2 tanks, with 148 selected for conversion to the Challenger 3 standard. The remaining vehicles have previously been variously described as potential sources of spares, candidates for disposal, or assets that could be held in reserve, though no formal policy has been set out. The lack of a decision leaves open several possible outcomes, including storage, sale, donation, or use for training and support roles. The Ministry of Defence has not provided a timeline for when a decision on the surplus fleet might be made.
It would be insane to do anything but hold on to these.
It’s one of the reasons you can always catch the MoD and the service chiefs out for being full of s**t. The same people screaming at us that we are about to go to war in 5 minutes time and we need to give them a bucket load of cash are the same people scrapping Typhoon tranche 1 and other serviceable equipment to save a couple of quid and keep going what ever pet project or cap badge they are interested in.
Considering the minimal cost of Challenger 3 we should go ahead and convert every challenger 2 we can get our hands on and leave them parked in a climate controlled warehouse.
Much the same as we should be doing with Typhoon tranche 1.
If US service chiefs have a nasty habit of gold plating every program to cancellation our service chiefs have a nasty habit of getting rid of every bit of equipment not being currently used with zero thought of reserves or actual real war fighting.
Yep.. the reason Russian has managed to keep fighting was the fact that it never throws anything away.
If Russia spent so much money on storing obsolete equipment, they would have enough money to buy a proper SEAD capability
No. Its much cheaper to build some storage sheds and some reservists to go round giving them the occasional run up.
The Challengers should be given to a yet to be formed reserve urban warfare training unit.
Yeah because keeping 1000s of 60 year old tanks is well know to be cost free
Yes but we don’t have 1000’s of Challengers and they aren’t 60 years old are they? So stop making things look worse than the proposal to keep and upgrade any Challengers that are recoverable; and I use that word advisably.
Let’s not forget that Russan ‘storage’ mainly consists of compounds with parked up tanks, theres no climate controlled warehouses.
They were litteraly de-stored and parked up in rows, some might have inhibited engines, many not.
Yet after 3 years they are still rolling them out and getting them to the combat zone. They may not be in pristine condition, well maintained and they may be mixed and mashed, but they appear to be functional. Which is what they need and better than not having any.
Russia has a good SEAD Capability,it just does it in a different way.
It’s two separate sets of people. The forces are saying get ready for conflict, the Russians are coming and it’s the Treasury that insists on all old equipment being firstly robbed for spares then junked.
Thanks to that nice Mr G Brown introducing Resource Accounting and Budgeting (RAB) to the Ministry of Defence. Google that if you need to explore the damage it did to the armed forces.
I often overlook RAB, thanks for this. Just read up more on it as I’d long forgotten it.
Sadly, the mad people in Whitehall don’t understand common sense when it comes to strategic reserve. So, it’s the chop.
I wonder just how fast the CH3 programme will really be, my guess is 2033/4
Maurice, the CR3 programme was set to deliver IOC in 2027 and FOC in 2030 and I think there was a very high chance of those dates beng met. However, MoD has now decided to delete concurrent activity and make everything sequential ie there will be no Acceptance and Fielding until Reliability Growth Trials are concluded and actions arising are dealt with. (Thats just one example).
This is clearly a reaction due to the Ajax programme disaster, but that is a very different programme in so many ways and always was high risk. I don’t think CR3 is anything other than low to medium risk at best. So its an over-reaction. But now IOC and FOC will slip but its a bit pessimistic for FOC to be as much as 3-4 years late. Still, we shall see.
Very true, Graham, if, however, we were living in safer times, I’d applaud the need for caution. Sadly, I fear there may be more to the recent CH3 announcement, as it could be a tactic to resolve serious engineering issues by adding further checkpoints and using Ajax as a reason? Remember, the Warrior upgrade progressed to the point where the penny must have dropped! We then saw stalling methods in the media before the truth spilt out. I do hope we are not going to witness another such failure.
As for CH2, the majority of the hulls should be reserved as backup for additional CH3s if required and platforms for possible future heavy armoured applications. Some could be used for additional training and possibly reducing wear and tear on the training CH3 fleet?
Hi Maurice,
…”as it could be a tactic to resolve serious engineering issues by adding further checkpoints and using Ajax as a reason? Remember, the Warrior upgrade progressed to the point where the penny must have dropped!”
To declare ‘an interest’, I was the British project management adviser to Rheinmetall in Kiel when they were bidding for the contract, then called CR2 LEP; hard to believe that this was way back in 2016!
I have not heard anything officially about ‘serious engineering issues’ with the CR3 programme – it is relatively low risk, the job is well funded, the timetable is not rushed (in fact its rather pedestrian) and the expertise of the two companies comprising the RBSL JV is legendary; however there is some scuttlebutt that Leeds-built CR2s differ in some dimensional ways to Newcastle-built CR2s – not proven and a little hard to believe.
I did not follow the WCSP story all that closely and it certainly dragged badly – not enough PM grip by Industry and the PM I suspect. As with Ajax, politicians awarded the contract to ‘anyone but BAE’, even though BAE was the OEM); fatal mistake to award the contract to a US company (LMUK, later of Ajax fame) who had never made an AFV turret before and never upgraded an AFV before. LM offered up many excuses for delay and running over budget and majored on being saddled with a lot of GFE that was not proven in British service (40mm CTAS cannon).
Classically when we replace an equipment with a new/upgraded one, we never keep the old vehicles. I am not sure what base for other heavy variants you had in mind – Titan and Trojan are finally to get an upograde (at least 8-10 years later than is ideal). CRARRV is the big issue – it is old and was built without Chobham armour and does need replacing, however it would be very difficult to convert CR2 gun tanks to ARVs.
As regards keeping some of the ‘surplus’ CR2s for training, that puzzles me. Both REME and RAC Trg Orgs will need CR3s, not very old CR2s. Drivers at Bovington will instead train on the specialist Driver Trg Tanks (perhaps the CR2 DTTs can be modified? no-one has said anything about this, strangely). For training in Regiments, then you need to train with the kit you’re going to use in war….CR3s.
Hello Graham, time to start writing a book on your experience in the tank business I thinks. Would make great reading. Cheers.
The only way I see us getting use out of CR2’s is to furnish the RWxY with them. That way they don’t have to borrow CR3’s from the regulars and if push comes to shove the Army gets an extra MBT regiment.
Excellent points.
Typhoon fleet had a lack of spares hence scrapping of tranche 1.
Same goes for Chally 2, where are funds for this warehouse coming from?
Hugo?? We used to have loads of army vehicle depots but just have one left in the UK, at MoD Ashchurch, nr Tewkesbury. Its been there since 1938. Several improvements have been made in recent years.
If there was room for even a hundred tanks youd think some of the in reserve CR2 wouldve been kept there rather than outside rusting.
Hugo,
‘MOD Ashchurch can store up to 4,100 vehicles, including both armoured and soft-skinned vehicles, in a Controlled Humidity Environment. This capacity is part of the ongoing Vehicle Storage and Support Programme (VSSP) aimed at enhancing the Army’s operational readiness’ This includes themajor new storage facility capable of housing over 900 Army vehicles completed at MOD Ashchurch in March 2025 as part of the Vehicle Storage and Support Programme (VSSP).
Certainly in the distant past some low-value vehicles were stored outside, when some hangars were deemed unsafe, but that was a very long time ago. I doubt CR2s were ever stored outside. When I visited to check on my withdrawn CR1 fleet in 2002/2003 the they were all inside albeit in some pretty poor, leaking sheds.
You can use google earths historical imagery feature to look back over Ashchurch in the last 15 years. From 2007-2021 I don’t see anything that could even resemble a CR2 parked outside. The 2023-24 imagery isn’t the best, 24 doesn’t look like there are any CR2’s outdoors. But in 2023 it looks like there’s a large number of turret AFV’s with a large gun parked outside on the hard standing. Hard to tell whether CR2’s or AS90’s, but worth noting that 2023 was also the year that the smallest number of sheds where standing with the rebuild. So probably just moved outdoors briefly while their new home was built.
Also fun, you can see Aerial photographs from 1945 of the facility and see just how many of the sheds actually survived to 2024 from the war.
Do you know how cheap sheds are in the real world. Besides the way industry is collapsing s/h stuff will be dirt cheap in the next year or two.
Dont forget to add defence premiums!
Why was their a lack of typhoon spares?
Not enough ordered, slow production, so on.
Get rid of the illegals then there’s plenty of room and cash.
You realise apart from political issues it will cost billions to deport the “illegals”
To be fair the tanks are already in storage or being used so it’s not a case of finding any new place for them
Point is the current storage is insufficient and leaves the vics in a bad state.
Havent we just built some lovely climate controled “shed’s” over at Ashchurch for that very reason.
The reason is simple. Treasury rules. The Army gets charged for equipment held in reserve. When you don’t even have enough money to pay for the equipment that you have in active use, why pay for stuff you don’t use
Jim,
I agree with your general message that we should convert all CR2s but some, or even many, might not pass what we used to call the the Agreed Platform Presentation State.
Ben Wallace only a few months ago said that he was told when he was DS that only 148 tanks were good enough to upgrade, but I don’t believe everything politicians say, even those we quite liked such as Big Ben.
I always interpreted that as “only 148 were good enough to upgrade for 5million EA.” I’m sure if the MoD was willing to pay Rheinmetall more they’d lower the acceptance standards for the hulls and be willing to do more refurb work on them.
I suppose you could keep them as an emergency wartime reserve if you end up with massive losses. But the problem would be the gun and the need to have a separate supply of munitions.
Personally I would like to see the whole lot upgraded. This would allow for 3 type 56 regiments as well a tanks for the RWxY to form a true reserve tank regiment.
To not upgrade them would be criminal! At the upgrade cost v Anything ‘new’ it must make sense even to the treasury!
Unlikely to happen, would require more army personnel
Here’s a radical suggestion, upgrade the damn lot to Ch 3 status and have five armoured regiments re-established with the best tank in Europe.
+100
Umh, somebody can’t count. Original 220 C2’s minus 148 does not make 140 C2’s excluded. So which is it? Either way is the decision difficult? upgrade another group or send to Ukraine.
That depends on who did the number crunching – 140 + 148 obviously gives 288,taking into account the 14 that were sent to Ukraine,anything around the 300 ball park as the Total Inventory would be pretty close i think.
See below Paul please.
220 were not the original mate. We bought 386. Some were scrapped from the mid 2000s on I understand, criminal if true.
Recently, HMG found some more and declared them in the inventory. A bit like how the RAF now includes Gliders in its aircraft totals list to artificially inflate the numbers. The overall total will include those rusted away in the sheds at Ashchurch.
Graham will have a full breakdown I’d think?
Just going by the numbers given above but would the army and/or the government be confused over numbers, given how efficient the re-organisation has been to date? Umh….
I would very much doubt that anyone in the Government, Minister or otherwise, would know the difference between their Arse and their Elbow, let alone how many CR2 we have on the books.
No argument there.
No. The re-organisation never altered the number of hulls in inventory. Daniele is being slightly disengenious in his anti-labour way by impling the government didn’t know the extra challenger hulls existed. They knew, they just didn’t include them in equipment counts because Ashchurch has typically been considered a seperate inventory. My belief is they where brought into inventory to allow for some degree of number maintenance while hulls go to be refurbed for CR3.
News to me.
Of course they knew they existed!
With his usual effiency Graham has explained all. Number are statistics aren’t they and you know the old saying about statistics I’m sure. It does seem though, unless they are in a poor state, that we’re not upgrading the 200 or so available.
Geoff, We bought 386 CR2 MBTs in two tranches with ISD being in 1998. The 2010 SDR in the wake of the global financial crisis caused a good 35% to be taken off the active list as a weird sort of savings measure, ie they would kept but not be maintained in storage. Many such tanks on the inactive list (Qty 159) were cannibalised and some were reduced so much that they were scrapped in 2010-2014; possibly more since then. The declared figure of 227 tanks on the active list has been with us for a long tome and was valid until gifting of 14 tanks to UKR, thus that figure came down to a figure of 213 tanks on the active list.
In recent weeks, MoD has ‘found’ about 75 more tanks – they didn’t find them as they were not lost! Thus they are now declaring 288 tanks on the active list – this is smoke and mirrors. These 75 tanks were on the inactive list and are survivors of the 159 and have not been maintained since 2010 – its crazy to suddently put them on the active list – they will be in very poor condition with many parts missing due to cannibalisation.
40 were stripped and scrapped at Bovington with some parts packed up for storage, those at Ashcurch would have had power packs, final drives etc removed for spares as. Stored in damp sheds they would need to go through rebuild program now to brought back to usable condition. It was visitors were shown the posh climate controlled hanger lol.
Thanks Graham.. Perhaps you should take over the stocktaking !! We’re really looking at around 200 tanks in reasonable nick then so probably no real scope for expansion of numbers. Maybe another 30/40?
OK, I’m really confused by these figures. Where the hell have these 140 come from, It was 220 or so in total of which 148 were to be upgraded/rebuilt with the remainder being assessed as uneconomical to upgrade or having been sent to Ukraine ?
Does anyone In the MOD actually have a clue anymore ?
They do, but they embellish figures as and when it suits or there is the need to inflate.
Someone needs to go into the MOD and sort them out. Same with All Government Departments. (Yet Liebore can find the money to take on 62,000 new civil servants. Probably all newly landed at Dover.) This is getting disgraceful and a 1st class shep show where heads are going to have to roll and pensions lost.
It’s just fucking incredible… If I’m reporting up the chain that I don’t know how many Vans and Workers and Excavators I’ve got, there’s someone coming down to check my records and to go round the sites and count. Oh and if I were really inaccurate, they’d give me the sack, rightly so. MoD and Govt meanwhile, they’ll just give them promotion.
According to its annual Equipment and Formations declaration published on 30 October 2025, the Ministry of Defence now has a total of 288 operational Challenger 2 main battle tanks in its inventory, up from 219 the year before. Apparently the Army have brought 69 Challenger 2s back into service out of long term storage to help ensure frontline tank strength does not drop after the Challenger 3 upgrade process begins. So with 148 allocated for the CH3 programme that leaves 140. As this figure includes all vehicles in the inventory, with older tanks often kept for spare parts or conversion it is unclear what proportion would actually be in combat-ready condition. The fate of these remaining surplus CH2 tanks (those not upgraded or sent to Ukraine) has not been formally decided but hopefully “operational” means they could be added to the CH3 programme.
Well fancy them keeping that so secret, 69 CH’s taken from storage, redied and active. Never saw a single article about this anywhere.
Sounds like the sort of “On Paper” trick we are so used to.
All of a sudden, we have more MBT’s than France and nearly as many as Germany.
Who’d have thunk it !
Pretty sure there was an article about them being brought out of long term storage. And they’ve not been kept secret, their existence has been commented on here by many for a long time, it’s just that we don’t count long term storage as part of the armies inventory.
Not been here that long so If there was an Article on here that showed these 69 being re purposed then I bow to your greater knowledge.
I have read many comments from many experts here but mostly explaining that 148 was all that was practicaly/realistically possible to upgrade due to the remaining (@80) being beyong economical repair or having been sent to Ukraine, so I’m rather surprised that all of a sudden 69 previously stored (Rusting, scavaged Hulks) are now “Up and Running” with nobody knowing untill now.
Can you confirm this Dern?
So I can’t confirm anything, because I’m not involved with the project. I can say what I suspect is happening:
RBSL seems to be charging a very low rate for converting CR2’s to CR3’s compared to a new build tank. So I suspect they are basically demanding the hulls be as good as they possibly can, fresh bit of paint, and bolt the upgrades on. Any work needed to allow the tanks to soldier on for however long the CR3 service life is expected to be needs to be minimal. Hence why despite 200 odd CR2’s being in service, just raising the number beyond 148 would drive the cost up (I think this came out in some parliamentary questions where the suggestion of converting all in service CR2’s was mooted, and it was pointed out that just finding enough hulls for 148 might be difficult).
The 69 that are being brought out of storage are probably in not particularly good condition, but a) they are probably not going directly to units, and b) probably don’t have to go to units straight away. I suspect that a handful of hulls (throwing a guess out here, maybe the 5-10 best?) will get a minimum restoration and get handed to an armoured Regiment in exchange for 10 CR2’s that go to RBSL. As the CR3’s roll off the production line maybe a few more CR2’s can be restored to working order and a few more CR2’s can be got running, but unless we are working on 70 CR3 upgrades at once (going off the timeline that seems unlikely), I don’t think all the LTS CR2s will be given to units.
The other point is these CR2’s only need to run for long enough that the CR3’s show up, which means that it probably doesn’t matter to anyone if they are just limping along and on their last legs.
Thanks Dern. All sounds reasonable.
“it probably doesn’t matter to anyone if they are just limping along and on their last legs”
I suspect that it matters quite a bit to the crews expected to use them if the brown stuff does hit the fan (which Starmer seems determined to ensure).
What is really annoying is that we have yet another Labour government intent on sending us to war badly equipped but telling everyone how well equipped we are and people fall for it.
As someone who was deployed almost 23 years to the day to Kuwait with the wrong uniform, boots that melted, body armour with missing liner and plates, issued the A2 rifle, with a “Sorry we haven’t got the new cleaning kits” or even a sling. As for the CR2, even in 2003, when they were only a few years old there were no spares so hulls that were left in Germany and the UK were stripped for spares to maintain the RSDG battle group!
Well if it’s so much of an issue they can leave the extra CR2s behind and deploy with the gap in the orbat.
Or you can take the explanation in the spirit it was meant in.
Why didn’t u use the sling and cleaning kit u were issued with the A1 the sling is the same and the cleaning kit would be fine but yes the government does like to send us to war badly equipped labour does love a war
Well whatever you believe the motive behind this, it was fairly widely reported in November including discussion on UKDJ; I certainly didn’t make it up. I’m sure it’s primarily been done to maintain numbers while the CR3 conversion work is ongoing, but I hope it provides at least an option for additional hulls for the CR3 programme. I’m afraid I’ve no idea why you never saw a single article about it.
Where ? I’ll be happy to take a look on this one place because I don’t remember seing 69 long term stored hulks being re purposed on any other site.
I like your tone though, nicely weighted.
OK, just been searching back. Found the 288 number from Oct 2025 which was up from 219 in 2024.
It’s pure paperwork inventory figures as suspected.
Comments were the usual mix of arguments and ego battles so no real help.
See my comments above. In the real world people would be fired for such a cover up & being kept secret. Obviously it was hidden so there wouldn’t be pressure to modernize more into CH3. Quite scandalous.
As Ajax is a dead loss we better try some more tanks with mounted infantry!
I think Obese-Jecty uses AI to generate his huge number of parliamentary questions. What his chat bot should have asked is ‘is the government considering converting more than 148 CR2s to CR3?’. I think they might be.
Well it IS his job, some of us commenters on here write more words in a day than he does.
True enough. He gives us something to talk about I suppose. Only occasionally though do the answers reveal much. Thin pickings. 10/10 for persistence.
He probably has an intern.
There is a RefUK MP who does similar on immigration, fishing for angles, which are then taken up by his more senior MPs.
These also need to be upgraded to C3. Anything else is ridiculous.
If I remember, we had 228 in total, which reduced to 214 when we sent a batch to Ukraine.
Of these 214, 148 are being upgraded to CR3, leaving 66 in the sheds. Many/most of the latter have apparently been robbed for parts, as the army was struggling to get 148 operational ones for Reinmetall/BAE.
Then there is a further batch of what must be 77 long-retired CR2s sitting in the leaky sheds at Ashchurch. Would be fair to assume that they too have been robbed for parts over the years.
So how many do we actually need? 148 is wafer-thin, it gives three reduced-size regiments of 44, plus 16 for trials and training. It does not leave any CR3s in wartime reserve.
While I don’t like the reduction from 56 to 44 tanks per regt, this seems to be the new model among several NATO allies. We should always have a wartime reserve of absolute minimum 25%, as they will be needed early doors if a peer conflict breaks out.
I would personally like to see the reserve regt, R Wessex Yeo, equipped with tanks, rather than just being used as battlefield casualty replacements, as 3 regiments is not a lot if push comes to shove. The BCRs could as easily come from the r3gular and Yeomanry reserves.
Add that lot up and you come to 248, leaving 43 of the CR2s in the sheds for a rainy day. That would mean converting a further 100 to CR3 standard. They would really need to go to some automotive company to be turned into runners before going off to Reinmrtall/BAE.
The CR3s are a very good bargain at £5m a tank and that would be a good investment. I”d happily see the Boxer buy reduced by 50 to pay for it.
Can’t fault your logic. Upgrading only 148 seems insane given the money invested in the project.
There are two potential valid reasons for such a low number (alongside a mess of bad reasons); the pessimistic one being that the army only has 148 complete tanks left that are worth upgrading. The optimistic (bordering on delusional) alternative is that Challenger 3 is intended to serve as a stopgap before a new tank that the MoD won’t commit to until they establish what a future tank should look like.
I too would like a few CR2’s for the RWxY to be kept in reserve. Tbh I make little secret that the reserves should have one Mech, one Light Mech and one Armoured Brigade, with the armoured Brigade to follow up the Regulars, and we should keep a brigades worth of outgoing kit for them.
I don’t see the Boxer order being reduced as a good idea though, there aren’t enough of them being ordered as it is, and an extra regiment of challengers isn’t that great if we don’t have any infantry we can carry alongside them.
186 to 198 CR3 seems sensible to me.
Refurbish upgrade to C3 and place in storage anything else is lunacy
Partial update, but incorporate new features that didn’t appear in the initial first batch. We have learnt new ideas from the Ukraine war.
I have given up trying to work out how many CR2s the MOD still own! They only number that has remained consistent is that just 148 (8 prototypes + 140 production) are being upgraded to the CR3 standard, although rumours were flying around late last year that the DIP may add another 14-30 to the total. These are badly needed for reserve and training as three frontline regiments of 44 CR3’s each (down from 59 CR2s each) leaves no margin. One possibility for where the extra CR2’s will come from is a buy back from Oman.
If possible just convert them all to Challenger 3.
Send them all to Ukraine
Well it looks like the British Army might need them in Ukraine. I don’t think hollowing out the Army is the answer anymore, we need production lines for Ukraine and for the British military.
Since the Labour government is not likely to fork out the cash to keep them (got to save some money to pay illegals to leave the country after all) just send them to Ukraine and be done with it.
At least they will put them to good use.
The overriding message for me is that, at a high-strategy level, the government/MOD has decided that there is no long term role for a wholly British-built MBT. This could simply be a sub-set of “MBTs are becoming obsolete”, like WWII battleships, or more worryingly, “the UK is no longer competent to build MBTs” e.g we don’t even put the gun on Challenger.
More likely the UK can no longer afford to build a tank just for the UK.
Does anyone know how the new Epsom and Farnham armour on CH3 compares on to Dorchester on CH2? By all accounts, Dorchester may be old but the Ukrainians love it.
That Information would not be in the Public Domain – strictly OPSEC.
Every ounce of common sense says upgrade them all and build new hulls from scratch just as fast as we can. All four services are pitifully weak when they can least afford to be. Yet NOBODY in Westminster in my lifetime has ever been serious about about proper investment and expansion of the forces. The Conservatives are making those noises now, but history has shown they did nothing but slash budgets endlessly. Starmer does nothing but make noise and lie. Right now the situation is the worst since the 1930s and I fear we’re repeating Chamberlain’s mistakes yet again.
40 were stripped and scrapped at Bovington with some parts packed up for storage, those at Ashcurch would have had power packs, final drives etc removed for spares as. Stored in damp sheds they would need to go through rebuild program now to brought back to usable condition. It was visitors were shown the posh climate controlled hanger lol.
Exactly how I recall it.
Others above are saying differently though.
They were supposed to be maintained but if jammed in a building with flat batteries, parts missing and covered in pigeon poo tis clearly does not happen.
Its far worse than Chamberlain. Nothing will improve unless the next Government deals with the liars pensions and halves them, unless they start to actually perform, right now.
We spent a considerable sum extra on defence at the time of the Korean War which was money well spent as it turned out.
I’m not THAT old!
I’ve just taken a look and even that was increase was in response to the war breaking out rather than in any advance preparation. Too little, too late, as always.
Can they be stored out side, ruined and then be useless to to grade but no one ever gets held to account over it, just like the others C2s, that method seems to be fine and used a lot.
Sheds are cheap, the lives of our servicemen are more than costly.
Costly so why is so much of the Armys kit crap,out of date or so run down? MOD nor thr government care and that is what sadly many in the Armed forces now see. Soldier break rules they get dragged through courts 50 years later.
Lazy can not be arsed careers of kit that ends up uses less get nothing. That says it all where the problem realy lies
If we are to be serious about detering future Russian aggression we need to show we can outbuild Russia. To my mind an annual figure of one hundred new tanks per year would be a sensible target. Some brand new others upgraded perhaps.
What would we do with one hundred tanks per year. My view is that we need at least 450 to create and operate 6 tank battalions three full time and three reserves. Reserves ought to be able to take over from full timers within 2 weeks at best or a month at most.
At the point that we have established these forces we could cut back annual production to say 20 per year but maintain the production lines. 20 additional units per year would allow selective retirement or storage of surplus vehicles and ensure that all parts required are still been produced.
We could easily afford such a policy if we were genuinely spending 5% of GDP on defense. I would much rather do that than see us fail and have to fight Russia because a future Russian leader miscalculated in the same way as Putin did in 2022
At £5m each, Ch3 is so much cheaper than buying new and non UK built MBTs. Upgrading as many as we can must make sense. Whilst Challenger may suffer a lower attrition rate than less well armoured competitors, it won’t be zero. So building a reserve is essential. The cost, £5mx 60 (? ) is minuscule compared with the overall equipment budget.
For the future, we should apply TOBA principles to all essential equipment, perhaps by committing to low rate continuous production that preserves skills, supply chains and can be expanded if necessary.
Isn’t there also an option of buying back CR2s from Oman?
That idea seems to be in play. Would give us up to 38 more still operational CR2’s at presumably well under £1 million each, although caveat emptor after 25 years of service in the Middle East. It all depends if Oman actually orders the South Korean K2 MBT, as has been speculated since 2024.
I have not read of any moves to repatriate the OmanI CR2s back to the UK,there were enquiries however regarding the Jordanain CR1’s,going for a Refurb and being passed on to Ukraine.
News just in, The RAF Fighter count now shows 400.🤦♂️
😂
Upgrade the remaining tanks aswell…
We don’t have surplus challenger tanks, we don’t have enough, good though they are we don’t have enough to fight off either the yanks or the ruskies and frankly they are BOTH our enemies and frankly also now clearly in alliance.
We need to be building more, many more, many for us and a load for Ukraine, and we need to be turning up the pace on making ammunition for them. The idea that the new smooth gun is as accurate or destructive is pure bullshit
I fully expect that the Challenger 3 program will run into the same issues that killed the Nimrod 4 i.e. the 20+ year old Cr2 hulls and innards will be a mess of different sizes and build standards, and that it will cost a fortune to hand fettle each new set of Cr3 bits to fit. Wildcat also suffered from this problem.
Ir would be much smarter and probably a lot cheaper in the long run to just build a new set of hulls. I’m sure there’s plenty of metal box companies in the UK that could put together a couple of hundred hulls to a consistent standard.
Could pop in a more powerful engine while they’re at it and they’d end up with an excellent tank with a 20 year life.
On a previous thread i hinted at such a similar outcome.Joining a few dots up that i have had information from , posted on other sites,the following may or not be true but i cannot confirm it – when RBSL was setting up at Telford for the CR3 Upgrade, the Original Jigs and presumably other Equipment were still in existence at Pearson Works Newcastle.RBSL took possession of these but subsequently a rationalisation of assets saw the Jigs discarded/Scrapped.Now this doesn’t chime with RBSL’s claim that Brand New Hulls could be built from scratch if required.Might it be the case that RBSL,in Developing the CR3,moving on to the production of the first Prototypes,realised that there was a potential issue with the Mating of the New Turrets onto the Legacy Hulls,worked out that the Existing Jigs were essentially useless,hence binning them,anf have opened the Door to New Production but using New Jigs and practises ?.
I hope so.
Keep them they are still better than most of the worlds tanks.
Could keep them as CR2s and give them to Territorial units – keeps them around if needed and provides a decent permanent home based source of heavy armour.
When it was announced that the UK would be donating some Chally 2s to Ukraine. It was felt that the tank would struggle against the newest of the T90 series. As it was believed that the CHARM armour piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS), would struggle to penetrate the Kontakt 5 or latest Relikt explosive reactive armour (ERA). However, the rifled L30 gun and CHARM along with HESH, has demonstrated that it has been remarkably successful in taking out any Russian tank it has faced, including T90Ms.
However, as much as the Chally has exceeded expectations. The L30 gun has effectively reached the end of its development, as no one is developing new ammunition types for it. Replacing the L30 with the smoothbore L55A1 is the logical choice, as it means the Army can now buy ammunition types from a much broader and competitive market. Sadly nobody is manufacturing a smoothbore compatible HESH shell (which is doable by the way), but does mean the Chally 3 can now make use of programmable fuzed HE shells instead.
If only Ukraine had a more Challys!